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IN TOUCH 鈥� Masculinity Programme

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TX:听 13.02.2018听 2040-2100

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PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCERS:听 听听听听听听听听听 CHERYL GABRIEL & PETER WHITE

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White

Good evening.听 Many of the most intriguing issues that we discuss on In Touch come from you and tonight鈥檚 programme is a case in point.听 It鈥檚 arisen from an email we received from listener James Bird.

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Bird

I think blindness and disability in general and masculinity are under discussed subjects.听 Particularly independence, work and finding work and the pressure to be the breadwinner, the pressure to be able to do things like DIY.听 Also, the difficulties of talking about it, for example, expressing frustration or anger at sight loss is often dismissed as being negative.听 And that鈥檚 something I鈥檝e heard from many men who鈥檝e lost their sight over the years.

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White

James Bird.听 Now we realise that this instantly raises one major problem 鈥� many blind women will surely be saying, well in today鈥檚 world many of those questions are about being in control and now apply equally to them.听 Well our reason for continuing to explore this idea is because of perception really, perceptions of masculinity and what constitutes being a 鈥渞eal man鈥�, which go back into the history of human beings and are very deep rooted.听 They鈥檙e about the way men perceive themselves and the way they think other men, and women for that matter, perceive them.听 So, does blindness and the limits it places upon us damage that sense of self and masculinity?

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Well to discuss it we鈥檝e assembled three real men, all with varying degrees of visual impairment.听 Radio and television reporter and producer Kevin Mulhern; a teacher of visually-impaired students Sean Randall and stand-up comedian Chris McCausland.听

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And I want to start by asking you all for a quick summing up of your take on this question.听 Kevin, let me start with you 鈥� I mean is it a runner?

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Mulhern

It is and it shocked me that this has never really been discussed before because it is something that certainly has modified the things I have done in my life but I hadn鈥檛 really realised it till the question was posed.听 I鈥檇 had the thoughts but never pulled them together.

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White

Sean 鈥� Sean Randall.

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Randall

No, I totally agree with that.听 There are things that I haven鈥檛 pursued in life, maybe I would have done if I could have had more vision.听 DIY鈥檚 a brief example of that because I鈥檓 just not very good at it and I think maybe I could hammer nails straighter if I could see what I was about to hit.听 So, I think that鈥檚 a really good point.

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White

But is it more than just a frustration, Sean, because James鈥� contention is that this really attacks at the root of your sense of being a man?

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Randall

No, I think there are many frustrations in life but I don鈥檛 think my blindness has stop me being in any way really the man I want to be, not really.

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White

Okay.听 Chris McCausland?

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McCausland

Well I鈥檇 like to start that I am very manly 鈥� I like football and Die Hard II.听 But aside from that it is definitely a thing and it is something that I do feel in me and experience especially within the kind of family setting and being a dad but it鈥檚 not something I ever 鈥� I鈥檝e ever really talked about to be honest.听 So, I will try to articulate as we go along.

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White

Well I want to stay with you because you actually have, to some extent, tried to articulate it.听 You鈥檝e taken a very precise family situation, which you think brings out a lot of these issues, and you鈥檝e blogged about it.听 Just describe it to us.

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McCausland

I鈥檓 always a lot more comfortable when there鈥檚 comedy in a situation to discuss it, you see, so and with my young daughter there鈥檚 very often comedy around any corner.

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White

How old is she?

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McCausland

She鈥檚 four now and back when I wrote this I think she was two and a half and she was just kind of talking and finding her words and things.听 We drove up to Liverpool and whenever we drive on a long-distance trip everything鈥檚 down to me wife, she has to do the driving for legal reasons, she has to find the food when we stop at services, take me daughter to the toilet, take me to the toilet.听 And a four-hour journey turned into seven and a half hours, as is often the way with like the M6 and all that.听 And it was a nightmare, meself and me daughter lost the will to live by the end.听 The next day I sat down and I said to [indistinct word], I said you were very good on the trip yesterday, it was a very long way, the roads were shut, you were a very good girl, well done Sophie.听 And she said 鈥� And well-done mummy for driving and well-done mummy for finding my dinner.听 And I said 鈥� Yeah and well-done mummy.听 And then she paused for a moment and she went 鈥� And well-done daddy for sitting down.听 So, nothing like your own four-year-old to remind you of your own inadequacies.

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White

Right, I think that sums it up in a way but I said earlier, didn鈥檛 I, that nowadays a blind woman with a sighted partner would be in the same position.听 What鈥檚 the difference?

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McCausland

The difference is they would be in a similar position that they would feel maybe that they can鈥檛 contribute and they can鈥檛 help but the expectation to help I think is stronger traditionally if you鈥檙e a man, if you鈥檙e a bloke 鈥� you are the protector, the doer.听 And I know it might sound in this day and age of gender equality it might sound a little bit antiquated but you can鈥檛 change how you feel you should be inside, if you know what I mean.

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White

We discovered, just before we started, that Sean was 10 years younger than Chris, so have things changed in that decade Sean?

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Randall

I鈥檝e got a slight different situation in that my wife and I are both totally blind.听 We鈥檝e got a daughter who is seven in May and I had all sorts of instances that mirror Chris completely.听 I was charging round the high street once, my daughter lost her shoe and it was almost like the village idiot trying to reverse back up and find this shoe on the floor without dropping the child or losing the guide dog.听 Would have been great on You鈥檝e Been Framed.听

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White

But is it easier, in a sense鈥�

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Randall

Well I think so.听 I mean if I鈥檓 in the playground talking to the other parents, sighted parents, sighted children, one dad may talk about the rugby and how wonderful Wales played at the weekend, other dads may be talking about the emotional wellbeing of his team and the fact that they need to go off for a retreat and I don鈥檛 think that鈥檚 indicative of the fact that he鈥檚 鈥� you know 鈥� you expect that sort of behaviour now, it鈥檚 sort of natural, people have naturalised themselves to that.

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White

And Kevin I want 鈥� I mean you, as far as I know, don鈥檛 have children but 鈥� and I wonder what situations makes you feel inadequate.

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Mulhern

Well can I just stay with the children theme because I think this is really interesting because when I was leaving school for the blind, Worcester, the whole genetic counselling thing had just started which basically meant in our day, my day, was you could pass it on 鈥� don鈥檛 have children.听 Now that is an enormous attack on masculinity before you begin and I鈥檝e always found that when you speak to people they say to you 鈥� do you have children.听 And if I say no, they say oh that鈥檚 probably just as well because obviously I would not be a good parent.听 And the second thing is, I have on occasion said well yes, just to check it out.听 And the first thing they say is can they see, and I think it is fine, we鈥檝e got two people here, three people here, have all got children, all of whom can see.听 Now I think it separates the men from the boys if you actually have what men want is a child in their own image.听 My god, go out and say you want to have a blind child, I don鈥檛 think you鈥檇 get very far.听 I think the masculinity of it is because what we have been taught.听 I mean in our day we were told we had to be massively independent, massively in control, much more than an ordinary fella 鈥� we had to be top dog.听 We were also representing all blind men, the stupidity of it was unbelievable.

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White

And this is interesting from your point of view in a way, Chris, because I was born blind but you lost your sight at 10 was it?

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McCausland

I lost it very gradually throughout me whole life but most of the important stuff went late teens, early 20s.听 So, I鈥檓 40 now, so it鈥檚 probably like 20 years since I鈥檇 say I was blind.听 I just see us both as different beasts, to be honest Peter, because if you鈥檙e born blind you know no other way, especially with mobility and getting around and you just do things a lot differently.听 I still lack confidence with a lot of kind of getting about.听 It doesn鈥檛 feel like something I鈥檓 ever going to get, just the older I get the less I care, I think that鈥檚 my confidence strategy.

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White

That鈥檚 the reassuring thing for people but you would say that, in a sense, because you grew up expecting to be a man, in a way, does that make it harder that you鈥檝e lost the ability to do these things?

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McCausland

I think it does because you鈥檙e still always grappling with the loss.听 If you haven鈥檛 lost the sight then you don鈥檛 have that hanging over your head, whereas like, for example, when we were going to have me daughter I was dreading being a dad and it wasn鈥檛 because I was fearing the responsibility or the lack of freedom, I was dreading being a bad dad who couldn鈥檛 鈥� not that was going to walk out for a pint of milk and not come back but they just couldn鈥檛 do the dad things, couldn鈥檛 be the manly dad and play football in the park鈥� we just said it at the same time.

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White

Because I was that鈥�

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McCausland

Exactly yeah.

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White

Well perhaps people born blind aren鈥檛 as different from you as you think we are, because we did say that without any rehearsal.

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Mulhern

Do you see yourself then as a sighted man in a blind man鈥檚 body, not to be funny?听 I mean it is interesting because although you see yourself like that I think people who see us do not differentiate, we are the blindos, we are the blind men, that is who we are.听 And this idea 鈥� I mean the only question you normally get apart from make sure you haven鈥檛 had children, is the question is have you always been blind or is it better to have seen than not seen anything.听 Oh, go away.听 The fact is, is I think we did ourselves short when we were growing up, we were taught this terrific independence.听 And the other point is when people then actually see us I鈥檓 not sure they want to see over confident blind men.

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White

There are lots more points to make.听 I want to move to the very specific situations of being in work because again at a time when the issue of equality at work could hardly be more topical, especially in the 大象传媒, I don鈥檛 have to point out that this applies to both sexes.听 But again, that idea of the breadwinner is very deep rooted for men and not being able to fulfil that role brings its own problems.听 Let鈥檚 just hear again from James Bird, the listener who posed the original question, and he had some thoughts on this business of employment.

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Bird

When I was 17 I was doing the work experience placement at an engineering company in the Midlands.听 One day one of the labourers came up to me and started trying to wind me up, as they would have put themselves, with traditional factory banter, it was nothing serious, I was expecting nothing else.听 But the next day somebody had obviously told him that I was partially sighted and he came back and he apologised profusely to me and wouldn鈥檛 stop, even when I said it鈥檚 alright, it doesn鈥檛 matter.听 And that was far worse for me and far more upsetting than the banter was.

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White

Kevin Mulhern, you鈥檝e thought about this whole 鈥� the business at work.

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Mulhern

It goes even further than that.听 Some years I interviewed a guy called Alan Whicker, who was a very famous documentary maker and I鈥檇 interviewed him live on air and I gave him a hell of a pasting.听 And he just shrank.听 And then afterwards I was sort of washing my hands and saying god I did a good job there and he鈥檇 gone out and said to the producer 鈥� How dare you gave a blind man to interview me, how could I fight back.

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White

Which of course is a very patronising thing.

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Mulhern

Well it鈥檚 the same as鈥�

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White

Or it would feel patronising for you.

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Mulhern

Well it was but in fact I think afterwards when I thought about it, it was true, he didn鈥檛 know how to fight back because he thought if I do anything 鈥� there were other people in the room, it was Start the Week and it was like if I go back at him what are people going to think about me.听 And it never occurred to me that I鈥檇 done that to him.

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White

One of the important things to say is that for three out of four blind people of working age they won鈥檛 have jobs and that is the point about the breadwinner.听 Sean, I think you鈥檝e spent some time out of work yourself I think.

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Randall

Yes, very luckily, as it turns out, I was out of work when my daughter was born and the first two and a half, three years of her life I spent looking for work while studying for my degree from home and helping bring her up.听 And looking back I adore that time.

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White

Did you adore it at the time though, did you adore the sense that you hadn鈥檛 got a job and you had a child to support?

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Randall

No, I was fighting, I was applying for jobs left, right and centre and it was only through sheer dumb luck that I ended up working where I am.听听 I didn鈥檛 apply for my current job initially, I didn鈥檛 apply because I was working in the disability sector, I just applied for an admin job 鈥� any old admin job that was鈥�

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White

Anything would do.

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Randall

Yeah exactly and that鈥檚 what I got and that鈥檚 where I started.听 I mean growing up my dad was a fitter, he fixed big chemical vehicles, very physical hands on job, I struggle to tighten up things with spanners, I鈥檓 not very DIY.听 But seeing that made me think gosh, how much is there I can鈥檛 do and it took me a whole to realise, after school, that hang on, I鈥檝e qualifications, I鈥檝e got abilities and I can use those.听 But I think seeing him go off at five in the morning and come home at night exhausted and sweaty and full of oil, both put me off that sort of line of work but also made me think I would never be any good at it.听 And how much of that is because of my disability, how much is because of upbringing I really can鈥檛 say.

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White.

And Chris, you were the one who said at the beginning I鈥檓 a real man, so is that a problem do you think?

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McCaulsland

Well first of all, my dad was a fireman so in terms of employment I鈥檓 never going ever match up to a job like that.听 But I do stand-up comedy, I have sacrificed all of my social life really for an anti-social job.听

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White

Let鈥檚 talk a bit about the mating game, because again I鈥檓 going to stay with you, Chris, because you鈥檝e got some thoughts on this.听 The problem of playing what you see as the assertive role that is expected of you.

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McCausland

I鈥檝e been with me wife now for 12 years, so I haven鈥檛 gone through the dating game in a while but it was a pain.听 I remember at the time when I was dating and me and my wife got together and we鈥檇 go out that first few times and I remember thinking to myself 鈥� do you know what I think that this would be a lot easier if I was a gay man and there was two blokes here and I could just make him go to the bar for me.

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White

But you didn鈥檛 feel you could that with your wife?

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McCausland

There was never any refusal or awkwardness from her, it鈥檚 just 鈥� it鈥檚 all within yourself and you just have to get more comfortable with yourself and with that, do you know what I mean.

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White

Sean, you teach visually-impaired boys in a co-ed situation, do these issues come up about who takes the lead and all that kind of thing?

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Randall

Yeah, I鈥檓 only 30, so for many of my students who range between 11 and 19 in age, so especially the upper end, they say to me 鈥� Oh Mr Randall, when you were doing it, how did it go.听 I do think they lack role models.

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White

Kevin, the lack of role model thing, that鈥檚 interesting because I have to admit, having gone to a special school, I actually haven鈥檛 found that, I think there are blind people that I can talk to about things.

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Mulhern

I think that鈥檚 true, although I do have to say I don鈥檛 think it is that easy for blind men to talk to blind men about this.听 And also, I鈥檝e never discussed it with sighted men, to be honest.听 But I think when I went to Worcester, like you did, when I was in the lower sixth, there was an upper sixth and a fifth form coming up, those guys were some of the brightest people I鈥檇 ever met and I wonder where they are now because they certainly didn鈥檛 get the jobs.听 And if you discussed anything like this when we were at school and you whined you鈥檇 be called a chippy, you鈥檝e got a chip on your shoulder.听 It was an expression.听 I just think what Sean is saying and Chris to a certain extent, I think maybe things have changed and maybe it is actually now easier.听 But I do remember thinking once that as a freelancer you鈥檙e always getting a new boss, like I鈥檝e had five different bosses last year, all of them were women.听 I choose to work for women and not consciously, it鈥檚 just happened.听 And I think it鈥檚 because it鈥檚 less competitive because if you work for a fella you are challenging their masculinity, you compete for a job with a sighted man and you get it what does that say about his masculinity?

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White

Let me try and pull this together with one final point.听 I wonder what effect the increasing emphasis on gender equality will actually have on this?听 Will it make things harder or easier?听 Sean?

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Randall

I鈥檇 like to hope it would make things easier.听 I think those blind men who feel they have to be manly 鈥� enjoy their drinking and enjoy being a spectacle, if you like 鈥� are going to be sort of under increasing pressure either not to let that slip away.听 On the other hand, like I said, I know sighted men who are happy to talk about works of art and anything else.听 So, I think the more the barriers are loosened as they are being progressively through the years that鈥檚 going to be better for us in the long term.

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White

Because Kevin, you could argue that as men and women swap roles much more comfortably, it takes a bit of the pressure off, as perhaps Sean is implying there.听 Do you think that鈥檚 true?

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Mulhern

I think the pressure鈥檚 off for a different reason and that is that still the dominant people in our society are white, able-bodied men but white able-bodied men can get out of the argument now, even if a blind man gets your job because they can say it鈥檚 the equality rules, that鈥檚 why a black person got the job, and the Islamic person 鈥� or god forbid a woman got the job, it wasn鈥檛 because there was anything wrong with me, it was because there are now rules that put other people in jobs.听 And that鈥檚 made it easier for us, which is an odd side effect but I鈥檝e heard people say it 鈥� they give jobs to people for other reasons other than the fact that I white able-bodied man am the best.

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White

But Chris, you could argue, that blind men have until now had an excuse, a kind of cultural excuse, to be able to dodge things that they鈥檙e less comfortable with 鈥� cooking, childcare, taking their daughters to the loo 鈥� and that arguably this might make it more difficult because we haven鈥檛 got that excuse anymore.

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McCausland

Well believe it or not I mean you find yourself just doing the things in life that you are more able to do than the things you鈥檙e not.听 And things like cooking is actually one of the things that I鈥檓 more able to do than a lot of the other stuff.听 So, that鈥檚 one of the things I take control of and I鈥檝e always done the cooking, everyone鈥檚 still alive, so that鈥檚 a good sign.听 But it鈥檚 one of them things as gender equality increases I don鈥檛 think that for me biologically that鈥檚 going to change how I feel.听 May be generations down the line it will but for me personally it鈥檚 not going to change how I feel trying to fulfil the role as a man.听 But the older I get the less I care.

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White

Sean, final word, you鈥檙e teaching the next generation, what do you think?

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Randall

One of my big encouragements to students really is to sort of do what you can do, a lot of the blind people that I 鈥� especially the younger ones have a lot done for them and I tell them all, quite a lot, that it鈥檚 going to be a bit of shock when you leave the environment and go off into the real world.听 And I don鈥檛 think that really hits home until it happens.听 But as Chris says, play to your strengths, whatever they may.听 If you鈥檙e good at nappies and babygros then good on ya.

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White

Well much more to discuss on this and we鈥檇 like your views both from visually-impaired men or women and I think this is an occasion when we鈥檇 also be happy to hear from sighted listeners with their views.听 You can call our actionline on 0800 044 044 for 24 hours after tonight鈥檚 programme.听 Kevin Mulhern, Chris McCausland, Sean Randall many thanks.听 And from me, Peter White and the team, goodbye.

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