大象传媒

Visit the for more information

听

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 大象传媒 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

听

IN TOUCH 鈥� The Future of Navigating our Streets

TX:听 06.11.2018听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 LEE KUMUTAT

听

White

Good evening.听 Are UK streets becoming no go areas for visually impaired people?听 For years In Touch listeners have been claiming that they are, now we鈥檙e planning a series of investigations into getting around in 2018 and beyond.听 We鈥檒l also be asking for your help.听 And why one listener has been drilling holes in his garbage bin.

听

But before all that, the annual prize, which could be helping to get new braille products on to the market.听 Not for profit organisation National Braille Press in the United States awards up to 20,000 US dollars to innovators in braille and tactile technology.

听

Well I鈥檝e been speaking to one of the previous prize winners about their offering for visually impaired children with additional disabilities.听 But first, Brian MacDonald of National Braille Press told me how the award came about.

听

MacDonald

Well National Braille Press, our focus is on braille literacy, that鈥檚 our primary part of our mission and so we鈥檝e brought it to the point where the prize is really to support anything in the field of braille or tactile literacy, it doesn鈥檛 have to be directly braille it can have impacts in different ways, it can still help with communication or education.听 And so, we have a pretty broad category, it can cover software, hardware, apps, educational curriculum and different types of projects.

听

White

And just give me some idea of the kind of equipment that have been former prize winners.

听

MacDonald

We have had many products submitted 鈥� refreshable braille displays from many countries, none of them have won.听 We have had a talking tablet that actually uses tactile feeling of graphics with an audio feedback to it.听 We鈥檝e had a braille mechanical ruler that actually gives very accurate measurements with mechanical braille.

听

White

Well let me bring in one of the prize winners because Dr Betsy Flener, you鈥檙e responsible for a piece of equipment which, as we鈥檝e said, isn鈥檛 actually strictly speaking braille, it鈥檚 a tactile talk toolkit for iPad.听 Tell me a bit more about that 鈥� what it鈥檚 for, who it鈥檚 for.

听

Flener

The tactile talk toolkit is actually designed for children who are blind or visually impaired and have additional disabilities.听 Typically, those children are going to be 鈥� they may be non-verbal or have limited communication skills.听 The toolkit consists of 30 overlays that go on top of the iPad and an overlay is a little bit like a screen protector in that it鈥檚 conductive like a screen protector but it鈥檚 a little thicker.听 And these overlays have either pieces of objects or paint or a combination of both that are raised and that are felt by the child and are very tactically discernible.听

听

White

And what does that enable the child to do?

听

Flener

Okay, well the first objective is for the child to be able to communicate.听 So, for example, if the child feels the symbol for eat, taps next to it, then it will take the child to a page of various choices for snacks and then the overlay is changed and there are very different objects that represent or paint 鈥� raised paint that represent snack choices.

听

White

And the key thing is that it鈥檚 talking 鈥� all this time it鈥檚 talking to the child, actually saying what the thing is?

听

Flener

Yes.听 Exactly.

听

White

Let me just finally go back to Brian, Brian MacDonald.听 Amongst the products that you鈥檝e discovered this way, Braille Me was one that won in 2017, now that was a braille notetaking device from India and it now looks as though National Braille Press will be a distributor of the product.听 Is this a clever strategy really for finding products for National Braille Press to distribute?

听

MacDonald

Yes, it certainly is helpful for us.听 We see 20-25 entries every year from all over the world and our centre for braille innovation is designed specifically to find researchers around the world that are innovative or new technologies that could support braille or tactile literacy.听 And our goal, as a non-profit, is to find a way to be the broker of that information and find partners to make it the lowest cost available for the market.

听

White

There are still some people who are apt to say that with speech technology developing all the time braille has maybe had its day, that other technologies can help far more.听 What do you say to that?

听

MacDonald

I don鈥檛 know how to say it in a British way that鈥檚 funny but it鈥檚 a bunch of bunk, let鈥檚 put it that way.听 But in all honesty, braille is literacy for a blind person, as defined.听 You can鈥檛 do a complex equation or read a very complex document without using braille.听 So, it鈥檚 still very viable and just as relevant in the digital age as it was 30 years ago.听 So, the answer is it鈥檚 still just as relevant.听 We鈥檙e trying to leverage technology to make it even more capable for blind and low vision people to be fully connected to the internet of things and still use braille in those devices.

听

White

Brian MacDonald and Betsy Flener.听 And you can find more information about the Touch of Genius prize on our website.

听

The response to our item last week about the tricky business of recycling was the biggest we鈥檝e had for some time.听 Many of you were keen to share your techniques and the varied performances of your local authorities.听

听

Stephen says that when he first arrived in Cambridgeshire the council provided braille labels for each of his three bins.听 Each label detailed what they expected in each bin and gave a list of items which were not welcomed.听

听

Meanwhile Brian from Chessington decided to take labelling matters into his own hands.听 He says: 鈥淚鈥檝e now drilled a series of holes in the upper flange of the bins with sighted help.听 Up to four holes.听 This also stops me getting a neighbour鈥檚 bin as if I come upon a bin with no holes I know it鈥檚 not mine.鈥澨�

听

Anne Rigby from Chester reckons her council has been helpful too with labelling but says the issue they have more difficulty with is the way in which empty bins are returned or not to the households.听 Anne says, apparently crews aren鈥檛 insured to step onto the properties, so bins and recycling boxes are often just scattered around all over the pavements.听 She says this means going out on bin days could be pretty treacherous.听 So much so, she鈥檚 in the process of making a complaint.听

听

And there were mixed feelings about the suggestion that people should identify themselves as visually impaired to their council.听 Andrew Walker from Scunthorpe was mildly irritated 鈥� his words 鈥� by the implication that it鈥檚 natural to be reluctant to ask for assistance on the grounds of visual impairment.听 鈥淚 see nothing wrong鈥︹��, Andrew says, 鈥渨ith asking for assistance and wouldn鈥檛 expect my local authority to second guess my needs.鈥澨�

听

Clive Lever couldn鈥檛 disagree more.听 He says that a council with an equality strategy worth its salt should carry out equality analysis of its services.听 Clive says the first thing I鈥檓 going to do after having sent this email is to tweet the link to the In Touch programme to urge people to get their councillors to listen to tonight鈥檚 programme.

听

So, welcome guys, hope you鈥檙e paying attention.

听

Now, if we seem to be obsessed with so-called shared spaces it鈥檚 because many of you have made it clear, over the past 10 years or more, that this concept is blighting your lives.听 The principle is that traffic, bicycles, pedestrians can happily use the same space and that our streets will be less cluttered and more relaxed if we do.听 There鈥檚 more of course but I can鈥檛 do better than allow the blind people of Leeds, talking to us back in 2008, to explain why they thought it was a thoroughly bad idea, even back then.

听

Archive montage

People have a dedicated pathway, that鈥檚 a pedestrian right of way and you feel safe and secure actually using that.听 When you talk about shared surfaces it鈥檚 basically the loss of that security through the loss of the path from the experiences which I鈥檝e had and others have had and it鈥檚 the dangers that are inherently associated with an individual pedestrian being mixed with road traffic and actually feeling that you鈥檙e the poor relative when it comes to any confrontation between a vehicle or a pedestrian.

听

We鈥檙e asking for a tarmac pavement which has got a different colour or we鈥檙e asking for paving stones, so that we can distinguish between the shared space area and the pavement.

听

They do say that the driver should have eye contact with you, they can鈥檛 have eye contact with me because I鈥檝e no sight whatsoever.听 In fact, I鈥檒l take me eyes out and wave 鈥榚m at 鈥榚m.

听

White

But despite those trenchant views what began as an experimental trickle of shared space schemes rapidly turned to a flood.听 Many planners seem to love the idea, local authorities claimed they鈥檇 consulted widely and supporters of the schemes pointed out that the predicted dangers hadn鈥檛 resulted in the predicted accidents.听 Meanwhile, we鈥檝e covered demonstrations against them, parliamentary debates and in Lisburn in Northern Ireland a successful judicial review against the town鈥檚 shared space scheme.

听

But despite the success of that judicial review is there more to this than a persecuted minority being ignored by the planners?听 Afterall it鈥檚 not just the UK, these schemes are proving popular in many other parts of Europe and beyond and alongside such developments are coming electric cars, self-driving cars and alternative public transport schemes, which look like completely changing the scene in the years to come.听

听

Well perhaps we have to adapt the methods we use to get about in order to cope.听 These are big questions which we want to examine over the next year and almost by accident we鈥檝e come across a project with the same agenda.听 It鈥檚 based in the city where some of our earliest protestors came from.听

听

Anna Lawson is professor of law and director of the Centre for Disability Studies at Leeds University.听 She鈥檚 about to start on a five-year project, funded with EU money, to investigate how the streets here and in four other countries exclude those who don鈥檛 conform to the typical driver, cyclist or pedestrian.听 Handy then that she鈥檚 come across a colleague whose brief is to map the cities of the future and how we will want to operate within them.

听

Romano

I鈥檓 Richard Romano, I鈥檓 a professor Chair in Driving Simulation at University of Leeds.听 So, the first step is really to provide a digital representation of the city, so this鈥�

听

White

Professor Romano uses digital techniques to simulate developments in transport and urban design in modern cities.

听

Romano

鈥� to say well I鈥檝e always wanted a pedestrian crossing here, I鈥檝e always wanted a cycling lane there.听 And laying out all those things and collecting all that information and then we can get together as a group and make decisions as to which ones we鈥檇 like to evaluate a little more.听 And then we can implement those both say rapidly on the street, if there鈥檚 some things, so we could paint a bike lane down or put some new light touch infrastructure in and test it or we could do the same thing in our virtual model and then have people put on the headsets, so you see these VR headsets in the news and everything like that, and walk around and experience it and say 鈥� oh yeah, that鈥檚 pretty good 鈥� or 鈥� no, it felt really dangerous to be in that spot.听 Because we can also bring that in our immersion simulation 鈥� have traffic driving the road and everything else, so, you鈥檙e really interacting like it鈥檚 a typical day in Bradford out there.

听

Lawson

I find it fascinating listening to that actually because part of the aims of the project are to 鈥� well the main aim is to capture the experience of exclusion that disabled people and older people, in particular, experience when they鈥檙e using streets and we鈥檙e going to be using film and video and storytelling as part of capturing their experience.听 And then also built in is a link to the type of technology that Rich has developed and been using here in Leeds.听 And I think some of the ongoing technology that emerges through projects like the one you鈥檙e describing would be really helpful for my project as well because it鈥檚 about looking at the way technology can help to throw light on the experience of people so that that can be taken into account by people who are designing cities or imagining cities and what they would look like.听 Because there鈥檚 some evidence that in the past when people experience streets that feel dangerous or difficult to use they stop going there and then they stop being counted in 鈥� for purposes of 鈥� when surveys are taken they tend to focus on people who are still using these streets, so the experiences of those who have stopped using them become less relevant and less factored in to future design in some ways.

听

Romano

One of the things, I think, that鈥檚 pointed out very well there is this whole idea of a downward spiral 鈥� that you need to stop and we need to get it to go the other way, this whole concept of not being counted.听 So, if people aren鈥檛 going to the local park and using it because there鈥檚 something else that鈥檚 causing them not to go there and so it鈥檚 understanding what are the access issues to that.

听

Lawson

That鈥檚 right and I think sometimes people think oh it鈥檚 accessible because there aren鈥檛 kerbs or there鈥檚 flat kerbs and that鈥檚 been a particular problem that鈥檚 come to the fore in relation to blind people in the last couple of years 鈥� something called shared space has been really controversial.听 Although technically it looks quite accessible because it doesn鈥檛 have hard obstacles like kerbs, the problem is, it鈥檚 a traffic calming measure initially, the idea is that drivers and pedestrians share the same space and that means that drivers go slower and they have different types of interaction with pedestrians.听 But there鈥檚 growing evidence that for blind people but also for lots of other disabled and older people actually that can be a very problematic type of space to use.听 That鈥檚 about policy and the way streets are being designed in a way that looks accessible but actually it creates new sorts of barriers that drives people away.

听

Mitchell

In what way, what would be the鈥�

听

Lawson

Well blind people can鈥檛 tell when a car鈥檚 coming towards them, you can hear that it鈥檚 somewhere near but you can鈥檛 necessarily tell that the driver鈥檚 seen you and is going to stop.听 Guide dogs 鈥� it creates problems because guide dogs are used to walking in the middle of a kerb, what do they do in a big open space?听 There鈥檚 no consistency about the type of tactile marking that鈥檚 there, so it鈥檚 very confusing for a blind person to know what the signals actually mean.听 And then for wheelchair users they鈥檝e stated that they鈥檙e often not able to make the kind of eye contact with drivers that they need to in order to feel safe to cross a road.听 So, people have left university because shared spaces have been introduced between their home and the university buildings.听 People have moved home because of these things being introduced.听 And it鈥檚 a type of design that鈥檚 being introduced quite rapidly in lots of different areas of the UK and other countries.听 And there鈥檚 still limited research on the experiences of older and disabled people in using these things.

听

Mitchell

But isn鈥檛 this something time urgent, like this shouldn鈥檛 be happening now if you see things are going on like a five-year plan that鈥檚鈥�.

听

Lawson

Yes, that鈥檚 very right, things are going wrong now.听 There is a lot of campaigning.听 One of the other aims of the project is to look at the ways different types of campaign happen and the ways in which solidarity can be developed and through technologies, like the ones Rich has been describing, the way people who experience these types of barrier can develop a sense of shared exclusion or deepen that sense of solidarity with other sectors of the population, rather than it being perceived as a real niche issue that only affects certain pockets of the population and therefore isn鈥檛 so important perhaps.

听

Mitchell

Maybe it would help some of the policymakers to consider the blind perspective if that was done on simulators where they could visualise the experience of a blind person going down this.

听

Lawson

That鈥檚 exactly the plan, yeah, so there鈥檚 a pedestrian simulator that Rich has developed.

听

Romano

Yeah well, the best way to imagine it is it鈥檚 a glass walled room, there鈥檚 projectors on the other side of the wall projecting on to the glass and making you feel like you鈥檙e anyway in the world.听 And so, with that, rather than using a headset we can create something that with visual and audio cues that feels like you鈥檙e in the real world.听 If you look at limited sight or limited hearing there鈥檚 a lot of people who have some mixture of both.听 So, we can begin to understand the needs and test all these things but we can also bring people in and give them the equivalent filtering and let them experience what other people experience.

听

White

Professors Anna Lawson and Rich Romano.听 And our thanks to 大象传媒 producer Sue Mitchell.

听

In the months to come we鈥檙e hoping to follow some of Anna Lawson鈥檚 work and we鈥檙e also interested in exploring more widely how we, as blind people, can keep our independence in this fast-changing world and whether we鈥檙e missing out by continuing to rely so heavily on dogs and canes to navigate.听 Call our actionline on 0800 044 044 or email intouch@bbc.co.uk.

听

From me, Peter White, producer Lee Kumutat and the team, goodbye.