大象传媒

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 大象传媒 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

IN TOUCH 鈥� Proposed changes to charity鈥檚 housing scheme

TX:听 05.02.2019听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听听 LEE KUMUTAT

White

Good evening.听 Tonight, two contrasting takes on specialist services.听 Why a tenant in specialist housing, for more than 40 years, fears for the security of her home.听 And in Scotland, a move away from the idea that mainstream education is always the best option for visually impaired children.

听

But first, residents of a block of flats in West London 鈥� Pocklington Lodge 鈥� which has always been for the exclusive use of visually impaired people, are concerned about plans for its future.听 The 50 flats are home to a range of blind people, many of whom have spent much of their lives there.听 But this letter, received by the tenants, last November, from the then Chief Executive Peter Corbett, calls people to question their security.

听

Letter from Peter Corbett

We are writing to all Pocklington Lodge tenants about our proposal to ask the Charity Commission to make a change to the scheme which sets out the charitable trusts on which Pocklington properties are held.听 This amendment is part of a general update of our governing documents to ensure they are up to date and enabling us to work with younger visually impaired people.听 Pocklington Lodge is the only property left which remains part of the functional permanent endowment of the original gift of Thomas Pocklington.听 This places various restrictions on Pocklington, including only being allowed to let vacant flats to people with sight loss.听 We are proposing that Pocklington Lodge should be held as part of the general permanent endowment in order to ensure its long-term sustainability.听 In additional to this being beneficial for accounting purposes, one technical outcome is that Pocklington would have the flexibility to let vacant flats to sighted people when vacancies arise.听 But we plan to keep all the flats for their existing use for the foreseeable future.听 This change will have no effect on the terms of your tenancy.

听

Well talk of changes to terms of the trust; a recent history of closures of some of the trust鈥檚 other properties; the prospect of flats being offered to people without a visual impairment in the future and the sudden retirement of the chief executive with whom the tenants had been dealing for some years, set people wondering what was in the wind.听

听

Andrew Hodgson is chairman of the Pocklington Lodge Tenants Association.

听

Hodgson

We put up quite a protest about this.听 As a tenants鈥� association we encouraged individuals to respond, as well as our general response from the TA, and Peter Corbett then sent us an email saying that there had been a misunderstanding and that there was no intention of making the flats available to sighted tenants.听 Which seemed a very strange about turn.

听

Email from Peter Corbett

It is clear to me that there鈥檚 been a misunderstanding in my recent letter to you all.听 So, I鈥檓 writing to you now to, hopefully, clarify it.听 We have no plans to let any flats at Lodge to any sighted tenants at all, ever.听 What we鈥檙e proposing is a technical change to make this a matter of policy, rather than regulation.听 The reason we want to do this is because it would change the classification of the building for accounting purposes, which will make it easier to access funding when needed for future major refurbishments.

听

White

You found the two letters, so soon after each other saying slightly different things, confusing, what did you do?

听

Hodgson

We replied again asking for clarity.听 But in the meantime, I鈥檇 had an approach from Peter Corbett, himself, apologising for the misunderstanding and saying that he would like to re-open negotiations with the tenants鈥� committee, with the Tenants Association committee and that he would be delaying the decision about the endowment.听 But after that communication with him I heard no more.

听

White

So, there was a period of silence from the then chief executive?

听

Hodgson

From him, yes.听 We were getting emails but the clarity of those emails still left a lot to be desired.

听

White

Now Peter Corbett, who you鈥檝e dealt with for some years and who also initiated the consultation with the tenants, has now retired.听 Have they told you what happens next and is there a sense of perhaps a lack of continuity here?

听

Hodgson

We鈥檝e really no idea what鈥檚 going on there at all.听 We鈥檝e had a couple of communications from Deborah Brown, who鈥檚 their head of governance but we don鈥檛 know really who is in charge or what鈥檚 happening.

听

White

Jan Deakin is also a resident of Pocklington Lodge, she鈥檚 lived there for 43 years.

听

Deakin

It is a place where we aim to help one another, support one another and I think that that is what I fear would be lost in any changes that would take place.

听

White

Is that 鈥� are you particularly referring there to the suggestion, now dismissed, that sighted people might be admitted as tenants?

听

听

Deakin

Yes, but we have had that assurance now that sighted people would not be admitted but in the first communication that was put forward as a primary reason for the change.听 The whole communication has been so confused and so contradictory that it makes it very difficult to actually understand whether what we鈥檙e being told is what is actually going to happen in the future.听

听

White

Now Pocklington Lodge is the last supported housing scheme owned by the Thomas Pocklington Trust.听 How secure do you feel?

听

Deakin

Not very secure now because if they make the proposed change in endowment it means that they will be in a position to sell Pocklington Lodge.听 Now we have been given assurances that this isn鈥檛 going to happen for the foreseeable future and it鈥檚 the 鈥渇or the foreseeable future鈥� that causes us concern.

听

White

And for you, what would that mean?听 You鈥檝e already explained that you鈥檝e been there for 鈥� what 鈥� 43 years?

听

Deakin

Yes.听 And I have also grown up through the boarding school system, so for the vast majority of my life I have lived in a community of visually impaired people, whether children, teenagers or adults.听 I have never lived in the community, apart from with my family, and for me to try and live out in the community would be terrifying.

听

White

That was Jan Deakin.听 And before Jan you heard Andrew Hodgson of the Tenants Association.

听

Simon Curtis is in charge of the trust鈥檚 properties and he鈥檚 been listening to what the residents have to say.听 So, Simon, first of all, can you explain what changes are being proposed and why they鈥檝e been put together?

听

Curtis

Well the change at Pocklington Lodge, as we have said, is to take it from a functional property into part of our investment portfolio.听 The reason for doing this is that it allows the property to be held in our accounts at full market value, rather than at an historic value subject to depreciation.听 This will improve the balance sheet of the trust.听 Due to the way that we are allowed to spend our funds it will increase the funds that we have available to support blind and partially sighted people.

听

White

And why now?听 I mean because you鈥檝e had these properties for some time and this has been the position for a very long time.

听

Curtis

It鈥檚 part of a review of the scheme by which the charity has to perform and is held by the Charity Commission.听 And we鈥檝e looked at that and thought this was an opportunity to change that and to increase the funds that we would have available to undertake our work with blind people.

听

White

But, you know, is money really so much of an issue?听 We鈥檝e been told in previous interviews, where we鈥檝e been talking about selling other specialist accommodation, we鈥檝e been told it鈥檚 never about money.听 I think you鈥檝e got an endowment of over 拢150 million?

听

Curtis

We do have a substantial endowment of that order.听 It鈥檚 not about money, as such, but this change in how the Pocklington Lodge is treated for our accounts will allow us to just release more funds to do our work with blind people and has been made very clear in all the communication we鈥檝e made鈥�

听

White

Isn鈥檛 your work with blind people really about providing accommodation, that鈥檚 always been what your traditional role has been?

听

Curtis

That has been our traditional role in part but it鈥檚 not necessarily what we think now is the best way of spending our resources.听 We鈥檝e found that when we had the five housing centres that we did have we were using a lot of our resources to support some people but not very effectively.听 And that鈥檚 why we have moved on from that to widen our work in many different ways.

听

White

But then you can see, from what you鈥檝e said, why the residents of Pocklington Lodge should be worried because the feeling is that actually you鈥檙e trying to get out of property altogether and you have got rid of properties in various ways over the last five years.

听

Curtis

We have but we have given repeated assurances in this consultation phase that we have no plans to change how Pocklington Lodge is owned, it will still be owned by the Thomas Pocklington Trust, it will still be managed on behalf of the Pocklington Trust and it will still be let and used for visually impaired people.

听

White

The trust has announced the retirement of its chief executive, Peter Corbett, who originally communicated with tenants about this.听 Will a new chief executive be pursuing the same policy?

听

Curtis

I don鈥檛 know, that will be up to him or her when they鈥檙e appointed.

听

White

But that鈥檚 another reason why people might be concerned, in the sense that they got their assurances from him.

听

Curtis

Well I think all the outcome of the consultation has been reported to the trustees, they will consider it very carefully, I鈥檓 sure, and they will respond to the tenants then.听 And they perhaps will no doubt take into account the current situation, where we have an interim chief executive, and what impact that may have on their decision.

听

White

Can I just ask you one very specific issue that people talked about there, the residents?听 They鈥檙e worried that flats will be let to sighted people, even with your assurances that that will never happen, with the trust鈥檚 assurances.听 Why a change of terms which specifies that possibility, will it be specified, for example, in the revised charitable objectives that it will be held for the sole use of visually impaired tenants?

听

Curtis

I don鈥檛 think it will be specified in that way.听 I mean in fact the existing scheme, the terms on which we operate, already does provide that we could let to sighted people.听 And this is not the purpose of the change, as we鈥檝e stated.

听

White

Could you make the change to these terms without being specific about making them open to sighted people?听 I think a lot of people wonder why that should make such a difference.

听

Curtis

Well it鈥檚 not what we鈥檝e said in that original consultation.听 It鈥檚 the technical outcome.听 We wanted to be very open with the tenants, it is not the reason why we鈥檙e making the change, the change is to allow us to support more people with visual impairments but it is one of the technical outcomes, but we鈥檝e given an assurance that although there is that flexibility for us to let in that way we have absolutely no plans to do so and we will continue to let flats to visually impaired people.

听

White

Isn鈥檛 this really about inflating its real value on its balance sheet, which 鈥� it鈥檚 a financial device isn鈥檛 it?

听

Curtis

Well it鈥檚 not inflating its value, it鈥檚 putting it at its current market value.听 And then the whole purpose is that having a stronger balance sheet allows us to release funds to support visually impaired people, that is the purpose of the charity.

听

White

But its value will be lower if it鈥檚 only for visually impaired people because that replaces almost a kind of covenant on it, doesn鈥檛 it?

听

Curtis

No, it鈥檚 not 鈥� that鈥檚 not the basis of the value.

听

White

If it has terms, which might be considered onerous on it, in other words it鈥檚 open to certain people, won鈥檛 that have an effect on the value?

听

Curtis

Well I think if you were to limit it that鈥檚 not what鈥檚 specifying, that鈥檚 not how it is valued, it is valued on the basis of the current tenancies that we have.听 But it is just the way that it can now be valued if this basis is changed to its market value rather than historic value that increases our sheet and allows us to release funds to support visually impaired people.听 And I think that seems a good thing for us to do.

听

White

Simon Curtis of the Pocklington Trust.

听

Now for the best part of 40 years there鈥檚 been a growing presumption in UK education policy that the teaching of visually impaired children should take place in the mainstream wherever possible.听 But now in Scotland a motion has been proposed which would modify the presumption that mainstream education is always the favoured option.

听

The motion has been introduced by Conservative MSP Liz Smith.听 She told me what had prompted it.

听

Smith

Overall in Scotland, we鈥檝e seen a huge rise in the number of youngsters who had got additional support needs, including visual impairment, and yet I don鈥檛 think that the school system is coping terribly well with many of these needs and we have a lack of appropriate staff in some of the issues.听 So, there were several things but I was delighted to get parliamentary support across the chamber for this.

听

White

What are the elements that mean they鈥檙e not getting the level of support they need?

听

Smith

I think one of the things in Scotland, when we had the additional support for learning legislation that went through the Scottish Parliament in 2009, one of the great successes of that is that we鈥檙e much better at identifying youngsters who do have difficulty.听 But as a result of the increase in demand for services I don鈥檛 think the supply of places in schools has kept up with that.听 And mainstream schooling is not entirely appropriate for youngsters who have particular difficulties and that includes a lot of youngsters who have visual impairments.

听

White

There are figures which say that the numbers of qualified teachers of visually impaired people have dropped in recent years, at the same time that the numbers of people who need assistance in that way have gone up, in the case of visually impaired pupils almost doubled.

听

Smith

That鈥檚 correct, that is absolutely correct and in fact it鈥檚 not just visual impairment, this has happened in several other aspects of disability.听 It鈥檚 a massive concern.听 And I think the other part of my debate last week was very much concentrating on the fact that we have specialist schools in Scotland, including the Royal Blind School and Donaldson鈥檚 Hospital, which used to be for the deaf, there are places within these specialist units and they鈥檙e not being fully used.听 So, that there鈥檚 an issue about local authorities鈥� preparedness to send youngsters to special schools and obviously there鈥檚 a very big demand amongst parents of the pupils that are affected who want to have specialist education.听 So, I think this is a very important issue.

听

White

And why is that happening?听 Is it purely about money?

听

Smith

Yes, I think it鈥檚 largely about money.听 I think obviously it鈥檚 a very difficult environment from an economic perspective, and a lot of councils in Scotland finding it very difficult to come up with the necessary funds and resources.听 But, as you said earlier, it鈥檚 about specialist teaching.听 I think we have very high standards to which we鈥檙e aspiring in terms of looking after the individual needs of youngsters, no matter what their different needs actually are.听 And I think given the increase in the number of pupils with additional support needs and how much better we鈥檝e come at diagnosing some of these, I think it鈥檚 a runaway train at the moment and it鈥檚 making it very difficult for these children to be looked after in the way that we would want.

听

White

There鈥檚 quite a lot of energetic campaigning going on from special schools.听 Is there an element here of special schools perhaps trying to fill their places because they鈥檙e struggling to keep their rolls up 鈥� I mean the Royal Blind School in Edinburgh says it has the capacity to take twice the number of children it has at the moment?

听

Smith

That鈥檚 absolutely right.听 And I think there鈥檚 a frustration there that they feel that they鈥檝e got these, in many cases, world class facilities and teaching staff who are able to deliver excellence to these youngsters and yet they don鈥檛 have full capacity.听 And my point, last week, was to say that there鈥檚 a bit of mismatch here because we鈥檝e got some local authorities who seem very reluctant to send youngsters for that specialist help and therefore mainstream classrooms in many cases are extremely full, when some of these pupils could be better cared for in specialist education.

听

White

So, how will your motion ensure that the right child goes to the right school?

听

Smith

Well, I think that鈥檚 a very important question.听 What I secured from the cabinet secretary, John Swinney last week, and from the other parties who agreed with my motion, is that the presumption to mainstream policy will be reformed.听 Not to remove, in any way, the mainstream idea but to make sure that those children who are requiring specialist help, the guidance about where they go and where the best service is for these youngsters, will change.听 And I think that鈥檚 very important.听 And I think parents need to be very aware of just the relevant information and how their own child could benefit from being in a specialist forum.

听

White

Conservative Scottish Member of Parliament Liz Smith.

听

And that鈥檚 it for today.听 But we can tell you about a change in the way that you can contact the programme to make your comments and give us your views.听 You can now call 0161 836 1338 and when you do call this number, calls are charged at the standard geographic rate.听 Calls from mobiles may cost more.听 Leave us a message there and we鈥檒l get back to you.听 Or, as usual, you can email intouch@bbc.co.uk or visit our website .

听

That鈥檚 it, from me Peter White, producer Lee Kumutat and the team, goodbye.