大象传媒

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 大象传媒 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

IN TOUCH 鈥� Scottish Braille Press Stops Press

TX:听 25.06.2019听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听听 LEE KUMUTAT

听

White

Good evening.听 Tonight, braille readers angry at the loss of long enjoyed magazines.听 We鈥檒l be seeking an explanation.听 And can you change attitudes to braille just by changing one word 鈥� braille to print?听

听

Clip

In your school no one besides you reads print.听 The teachers don鈥檛 read it, your friends don鈥檛 read it.听 There is no print displayed around the halls, on the classroom walls or in the lunch room.听 Everybody reads but nobody reads English print.

听

White

One mother of a braille reading child conducts an experiment.

听

And a guide dog owner with a new route to work who feels she鈥檚 not getting the help she needs.

听

But first, Gail Guest has been receiving and enjoying braille magazines from one of the few producers of braille in the UK 鈥� the Scottish Braille Press 鈥� for many years.听 But the other day she got a letter containing a nasty shock.

听

Guest

It said that the Scottish Braille Press are stopping production of all their braille magazines and the weekly magazines are stopping this week, so the last copy will be this week and the monthly magazine is 鈥� the last one is in the middle of July.

听

White

Which magazines are you losing?

听

Guest

Home Help, Madam and Braille Sporting Record do a spectra magazine and also some people have a knitting pattern magazine quarterly and that is also going.听 So, it鈥檚 every braille magazine that they produce.

听

White

And how long have you been receiving them?

听

Guest

I am now in my late 60s and I have been receiving it since my early 20s, so 45 years I would say.

听

White

And as far as women鈥檚 magazines, because two or three of them fall into that category, what kind of other options are there?

听

Guest

There are very few in braille, certainly.听 I mean the RNIB do one but it鈥檚 not the same as these magazines, it鈥檚 sort of more for younger women, bit more modern than me really.听 Of course, there are, I think, some of the women鈥檚 magazines on CD or memory stick but I really feel, Peter, for braillists, as I know you know, braille is a really important medium for us and it鈥檚 the way we want to read our magazines.

听

White

Now the Scottish Braille Press tells us that it鈥檚 steadily been losing subscribers for these magazines and that they can no longer, therefore, support it.听 What do you say to that?

听

Guest

They should have thought it through better and at least have one women鈥檚 magazine a month, perhaps.听 I just think it鈥檚 so sort of sudden and unfair really on us to take all the magazines away at once.听 My friend and I really do feel they should have asked us for more subscriptions over the years.

听

White

Would you 鈥� so you would have been prepared to pay more?

听

Guest

Absolutely, everybody I鈥檝e spoken to has said yes, they would have been prepared to pay more.

听

White

And Gail鈥檚 only one of several listeners who鈥檝e got in touch with us about this.听 The Scottish Braille Press, as well as producing some books and magazines, also carries out transcription services in braille, large print and audio.听 And it鈥檚 operated by a broader charity 鈥� Royal Blind 鈥� which offers a range of services including care, education and employment advice.听

听

Well Mark 翱鈥橠辞苍苍别濒濒 is Chief Executive of the Scottish Braille Press.

听

Mark 翱鈥橠辞苍苍别濒濒 why are these magazines being discontinued?

听

翱鈥橠辞苍苍别濒濒

Well firstly, just to say how difficult a decision it鈥檚 been and it鈥檚 one that we鈥檙e very sad and sorry about and particularly to those subscribers who we鈥檙e having to disappoint and that鈥檚 not something that we鈥檝e arrived at lightly.听 We鈥檝e actually been subsidising this heavily for a long time but unfortunately the subscriptions have continued to drop and it鈥檚 costing us a significant sum of money 鈥� it鈥檚 a six-figure sum of money actually because of the nature of braille production, to produce these magazines for now 鈥� 40 odd subscribers only left in Scotland.听 And sadly, as much as we鈥檇 like to continue doing that because Royal Blind has really big ambitions to reach more people with sight loss, so we鈥檙e going to have to make some decisions about what we invest in.

听

White

You say 鈥� you say readership in Scotland, I mean there are people outside Scotland who have been contributing to this, of course.

听

翱鈥橠辞苍苍别濒濒

That鈥檚 right, they are, but ultimately as a Scottish based charity we have to look at our impact in Scotland.

听

White

But you are saying that because it鈥檚 a Scottish charity you don鈥檛 feel you can subsidise, as it feels to you, people from outside Scotland?

听

翱鈥橠辞苍苍别濒濒

That鈥檚 right.听 I mean and ultimately, we really focused on this doubling of sight loss that鈥檚 expected in the next couple of decades, due to the ageing population, there鈥檚 already 170,000 people with significant sight loss.听 Statutory services are poor, if anything they鈥檙e being reduced due to cuts in local authority budgets and we feel that we鈥檝e got a responsibility, as Scotland鈥檚 biggest sight loss organisation to really step up to that challenge.

听

White

But the subscriptions are very low - 拢10 a year for weekly magazines 鈥� and what people have said to us is we would pay more but we鈥檝e not been consulted, we鈥檝e never even been asked.

听

翱鈥橠辞苍苍别濒濒

Yeah, I understand that and it鈥檚 very kind of people to make that鈥�

听

White

Well it鈥檚 not kind, they want their magazines.

听

翱鈥橠辞苍苍别濒濒

No sure but over 拢100,000 a year for this level of subscription, you know, there鈥檚 no realistic level of upping the subscription that鈥檚 going to make a dent in that.

听

White

But the latest published annual report of Royal Blind, which, as you said, operates Scottish Braille Press, says: 鈥淭he press achieved another strong performance this year,鈥� I鈥檓 quoting, this is 2018, 鈥渨ith a total income of 拢3.3 million鈥�.听 Are you really saying that it wouldn鈥檛 have been possible to support these much appreciated and much-loved publications for a bit longer?

听

翱鈥橠辞苍苍别濒濒

Well yeah, no, it鈥檚 a good point.听 But the annual accounts that you鈥檙e reading, just because of the timings of those publications, are now over a year old and鈥�

听

White

So, are you in trouble over this year then?

听

翱鈥橠辞苍苍别濒濒

No, not at all, the Braille Press is effectively an enterprise and a commercially minded business and since those accounts have been published we鈥檝e had to renegotiate some of our contracts because technology鈥檚 changing all the time and any business has to stay ahead of that, which means we鈥檙e having to readjust the numbers and think hard about certain decisions like this.

听

White

Mark 翱鈥橠辞苍苍别濒濒.

听

Now listener Aletea Sellers has just moved to another part of Birmingham, which means she has to learn some new routes.听 She鈥檚 a guide dog owner and can request help with learning new routes from the Guide Dogs Association.听 But she鈥檚 been encountering problems.听 She told Lee Kumutat about them.

听

Sellers

Basically, I was moving in with a new partner and also, I wanted to be a bit closer to my job.

听

Kumutat

What support do you think you need to find your way around your new surroundings?

听

Sellers

What works for me is for someone to sort of accompany me on the route a couple of times, negotiate things with me like busy crossings that might be a bit confusing if you鈥檝e got islands in the middle and you don鈥檛 know the fact there鈥檚 an island there.听 All things like that really.听 So, I was really looking forward to 鈥� no I like just wandering on my own with my dog really.听 I like kind of going and browsing round different shops and I also wanted to take up swimming again and do more of that.听 And it鈥檚 frustrating because I know that all of these places are pretty close but I鈥檓 just not quite able to put all the pieces together in finding my way.

听

Kumutat

And why is that?

听

Sellers

I don鈥檛 feel like I鈥檝e had the appropriate support from Guide Dogs that I was hoping for.听 I made them aware of the fact that I would be moving area as soon as we had the go ahead that we could rent the property but I keep calling and calling and apparently I鈥檓 top of the list but I鈥檇 hate to think what it would be like at the bottom of the list because I鈥檝e had no input whatsoever.听 Moving area, I think, for anybody is quite stressful and quite difficult and I would have really appreciated that bit of extra support in finding my feet and things like that.

听

Kumutat

What reasons have you been given for them not being out to see you yet?

听

Sellers

Part of the reason was the fact that I was working a full-time job.听 I told them that I鈥檇 be home by 4.30 and I was really hoping actually that they would be able to work with me in these hours, you know it鈥檚 not a ridiculously late time, we could have done half an hour, 45 minutes every so often and that wouldn鈥檛 be anywhere near outside office hours particularly but I was told that that wasn鈥檛 an option.听 I either had to take leave from work, had to do it in my lunch break, which wasn鈥檛 practical, we only get half an hour for lunch.听 I did approach my employer about having time off, which was 鈥� they were understanding about it and there was no problem with it but even with that 鈥� with that go ahead I still haven鈥檛 had any support from Guide Dogs.

听

Kumutat

What have Guide Dogs said to you, now that you鈥檝e told them you can get the time off?

听

Sellers

They鈥檝e said oh great, there鈥檚 nobody available, we can鈥檛 put in any dates at this stage because there鈥檚 not anybody to do the route support with you but as soon as we have someone, we鈥檒l let you know.听 But you know it鈥檚 been four months now, I think.

听

Kumutat

What impact is this having on you?

听

Sellers

It has been having a bit of an impact on my mental health because just sort of feeling a bit claustrophobic, very frustrated especially when people may be at work say oh have you been there or this is quite close to you or you could go here and knowing that these places are around me and coming home and maybe trying to get to these places and not feeling entirely safe because I鈥檓 getting lost and not sure where I am and not actually getting to these places.听 Also I just 鈥� I feel that there鈥檚 a little bit of hypocrisy, whether it鈥檚 intentional or not, because before we get our dogs we鈥檙e told we鈥檙e supposed to work them for a certain amount of time during the day and they鈥檙e supposed to have a certain of amount of free runs but I feel like that the organisation is kind of disempowering me from being able to do that.听 And I also just want to sort of touch a little bit on the employment issue because I would have thought that an organisation that really advocates independence and blind people getting out and about and being in work and doing the normal things that everybody does would want me to be in work as much as possible and not try and take away from that time as well.

听

White

Aletea Sellers.听 Well we invited Guide Dogs for the Blind Association to explain their side of the story.听 They declined our invitation to come on to the programme but offered us a statement.

听

Statement Guide Dogs for the Blind

Our trainers work incredibly hard, frequently above and beyond their standard working hours, to provide the highest possible level of support and training.听 We work closely with employers and encourage them to be supportive of someone training with a guide dog or another of our services as a reasonable adjustment in line with their obligations under the Equality Act.听 However, where we cannot agree a compromise with an employer and based upon individual circumstances our trainers do everything they can to adjust their working patterns and are committed to supporting people with sight loss to have the confidence and support they need to live their fullest life.

听

Now, as a regular braille reading train traveller, I鈥檓 used to people鈥檚 bewilderment about the reading system I take for granted.听 The fact that people with no experience of blindness can鈥檛 understand how this series of oddly shaped and positioned bumps can turn into a confidently read book is excusable.听 What Erin Jepsen, the mother of two visually impaired children, can鈥檛 tolerate is that these kinds of attitudes are regularly encountered in schools with, she feels, serious consequences.

听

Erin joined us from Moscow, Idaho but it鈥檚 fair to say that the reactions she describes will be recognised by braille users all over the world.听 Erin told me first a bit more about herself and her children.

听

Jepsen

I am low vision, I read both print and braille and I鈥檓 also a certified braille transcriber.听 One of my children is totally blind and is a braille reader.听 One of my children is low vision and is a print reader.听 And then I have two sighted children as well.听 So, it puts me in a unique position, I feel like I bridge the gap sometimes between the print world and the braille reading world.

听

White

Now you wrote an article which cleverly, we thought, exchanged the word braille for the word print to make your points about the way in which braille is regarded and the kind of attitudes that visually impaired children encounter.听 We鈥檝e voiced up some of the headlines that you use to signpost the main problems you identify with those attitudes and the lack of resources and understanding.听 So, here鈥檚 headline one:

听

Headline one

It makes sense that you鈥檙e having a hard time with this.听 It is hard to learn print.听 As your hypothetical classroom teacher, I don鈥檛 actually read this print stuff.听 Your aide took a two-week training course and we have a reference chart here but I really don鈥檛 know how print works.听 It just looks like a bunch of squiggles on the paper.听 It uses a round symbol for both the zero and the letter O and I鈥檓 not sure how to tell you which one鈥檚 which.

听

Jepsen

I think the attitude that a braille learner often gets is this is so unduly complicated it鈥檚 okay if you don鈥檛 learn it fluently, it鈥檚 okay if you just half-heartedly learn it, it鈥檚 okay if you鈥檙e illiterate at this.听 Whereas a print reader, that attitude will never fly.听 A teacher needs to bear in mind that as a learner the difference between hearing 鈥� this is really hard, keep trying but don鈥檛 worry if you don鈥檛 get it because I don鈥檛 get it 鈥� that鈥檚 different than hearing, as a learner 鈥� I know this takes a lot of work, learning to read takes a lot of work for everyone, keep at it because it鈥檚 worth it and you can do it, others have done it and you can too.

听

White

Let me give you headline two:

听

Headline two

I鈥檓 sorry but your book is loaded with typos.听 The books we鈥檙e giving you were transcribed by unqualified volunteers, so there are at least two typos or misprints or misspelled words for every 30 words.听 Just remember you鈥檙e lucky to have print books at all.

听

White

So, I鈥檝e heard that before.听 We鈥檙e obviously swapping the word print for braille, but do you really think that this is a pervasive attitude and regularly communicated to visually impaired children?

听

Jepsen

You know I鈥檓 on a lot of support groups for parents of blind children and I do think this is a pervasive attitude.听 Unfortunately, children are asked to absorb the expense and difficulty of braille.听 As a transcriber I can tell you exactly how much a thousand sheets of braille paper costs, I can tell you exactly how long it takes to emboss 70 sheets on my old Juliet Pro Embosser.听 I know how much an hour of my time is worth when it comes to formatting a book.听 We, as a society, should absorb that cost to have literate children.听 But the child, themselves, should never have to absorb that cost.听 Blindness is a low incident disability, so braille is always going to cost more.听 But philosophically, is the child asked to absorb that?听 Do they have to feel guilty that their books cost more than everybody else鈥檚 book?听 Or should they get to be able to read like everybody else?

听

White

Let me give you one more.

听

Headline three

You will get your books late, always.听 Your maths book is still at the translator鈥檚 shop, they say it will be here in seven months.听 Everyone else is going to use a maths book during the next seven months but I鈥檒l just read your maths out loud to you.

听

White

In your experience, how often does this actually occur, does it happen a lot?

听

Jepsen

Well I wrote this because for us it was a real example, this really happened to my daughter her first-grade year of school.听 They sent the book part by part and it was seven months before we got the whole thing and unfortunately, she was working ahead of the parts that we got the entire year, so the book was useless to us.听 So, the expense that went in to transcribing that book was completely useless.听 And then the next year, in her second grade, a teacher鈥檚 aide, a teacher鈥檚 assistant, who was not a certified transcriber was doing the transcribing work and there were a lot of errors and she was doing her work for her, spelling her words for her and I don鈥檛 know 鈥� I know that a lot of braille teachers and transcribers they do their best, they really care, they really try, they often get overloaded or asked to work beyond their training and that isn鈥檛 their fault, they really, really do try and they really do care about their kids.听 But I鈥檝e spoken with support groups around the country and from what I gather this is just more the norm than the exception.

听

White

Erin Jepsen.

Well, if you鈥檇 like to give us your views on Erin鈥檚 take on attitudes to braille or indeed on anything in the programme, you can leave direct messages to us on 0161 836 1338.听 You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk or visit our website at bbc.co.uk/intouch from where you can download tonight鈥檚 and previous podcasts of the programme.听 From me, Peter White, producer Lee Kumutat and the team, goodbye.