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IN TOUCH – THE IMPACT OF LOCKDOWN

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TX: 23.06.2020 Ìý2040 -2100

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PRESENTER:ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý KEV CORE

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STUDIO MANAGER: ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý SUE STONESTREET

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Peter White

Good Evening.Ìý The phrase I think I've heard most often when people talk about lockdown is 'I don't think I've been through anything like this before'.Ìý But when you try to pin down what that means it's illusive, the experience has been a strange mixture of fear, radical change to lifestyle, deprivation for some and boredom.Ìý So today, what we wanted to do is to explore in a bit more detail what the experience has been for three visually impaired people from a variety of backgrounds, age, groups, attitudes and then particularly, look at what affect it might have on us as a group in the future.Ìý And I'll be telling you my biggest worry as well, so I look forward to that.

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First of all, why don't I invite you all to introduce yourselves, since there's nothing more irritating than having me telling you who you are!Ìý Off you go, Emma first.

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Emma Williams

My name is Emma Williams.Ìý And I work for New College, Worcester as part of our Independent Living Skills Team.Ìý My job is to prepare our older students who are 6th Form students ready for life after New College.

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Kevin Mulhern

I'm Kevin Mulhern.Ìý I'm a a Writer and Producer in Radio & Television.Ìý And many years ago, spent a lot of time on 'In Touch'.

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Elle Williams

My name's' Elle Williams!Ìý I work for 'Look UK' we're a National Charity that's supporting visually impaired young people and children and their families.Ìý And I live in Cambridgeshire with my partner, who's also V.I.

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Peter White

So let's find first then a bit more about what lockdowns been like for you?Ìý The RNIB found that 66% of people that it surveyed found that post-lockdown, people felt less independent.Ìý Our youngest panel is first Ellen.Ìý What's it been like for you?

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Ellen Williams

In an unexpected way, it's been a a bit of a relief.Ìý I mean I'm quite an introverted person, so it can be tricky you know trying to get round a noisy pub and sort of managing the situations.Ìý But in some ways, social distance, socialising it has worked better for me because I'm...I've got more control of the situation, so I'm on my own sofa, I know where the toilet is!Ìý And I've kind of found that the body language and things isn't isn't as much of a a factor on a Zoom call as it is in real life, so in some ways I found socialising more enjoyable this way.

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Peter White

But for how long could you put up with that?

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Ellen Williams

Well yeah, the the virtual quizzes are getting a bit old now!

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Peter White.

Yeah!Ìý Let me, let me turn to Kevin Mulhern, you know you lead a very busy journalist life.Ìý What's the last 13 weeks been like for you?

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Kevin Mulhern

I have not been out because I'm sharing my home with somebody who was shielding.Ìý And so for me, just sitting there contemplating what life is going to be like getting out and literally just dealing with data it's frankly been quite terrifying.Ìý I have to be honest, I'm normally not somebody who gets nervous, but my life usually involves a lot of travel and a lot of you know meeting people but mainly the travel, because you workout your own pattern of getting round.Ìý And for example, I I was always brilliant at getting through airports quickly, you know rather than getting stuck there as the...the passenger they had to make special arrangements for and I had all these skills and I just feel there all gone!Ìý It's been sitting at home being quietly terrified if I'm being honest.

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Peter White

We'll come back to some of the...the aspects of that, cos of course that raises a whole issue of our independence.Ìý But let me to go Emma, what about you because I, I think your still teaching for some of your pupils.

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Emma Williams

I'm like Ellen, I'm quite an outgoing kind of person, so I do like to go out and socialise and for me that's been quite hard.Ìý I have been self-isolating due to underlying health condition, so I've had you know up and down days.Ìý It's emotionally been really quite hard at times, knowing that I can't go out and be with my friends.

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Peter White

I promised to share the thing that was worrying me most and it it ties in a bit with what Kevin was saying, cos I think one of my prevailing feelings has been apprehension not of getting coronavirus or of not being able to get enough food, although, I know that's been a problem for a lot of people!Ìý But of suddenly for the first time since I was at school, being told what I could and couldn't do!Ìý Where I could go, who I could see, who I could hug!Ìý And the reason that that's made me nervous I think is because I feel I've been fighting all my life against a tendency of telling blind people what they can and they can't do, cos they think your vulnerable and I'm wondering whether this is gonna creep into public policy, even when this is all over.Ìý Am I paranoid or have I got a point?

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Kevin Mulhern

I don't think you are paranoid, because from my point of view I agree with you, that 40yrs ago, I remember battling this saying.Ìý You went round saying "I'm independent, I can do the job as well as you can that I have got no drawbacks" you know you have to oversell yourself.Ìý And I hear a lot of voices saying in my back of my head 'How independent are you now?' you know there is some proof in that.Ìý What we've really always wanted to do was to control the help, which we got.Ìý In other words, rather than people jumping in and doing something for us!Ìý We wanted to be able to to bluntly manipulate the help in the way we needed it, which kept our self respect and yet, accepted the help when we needed it.Ìý And now I just feel like you I'm not actually quite sure there was the announcement that one of the places you were meant to sneeze was into the elbow of your coat.Ìý In other words...

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Peter White

Yes!

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Kevin Mulhern

...but where the joint is there!Ìý And my immediate reaction to that, which was totally utterly selfish, was 'Oh god, that's where I hold people that is where I link up to people that's where I do it'.Ìý And I, I'm caught between thinking 'What the hell is going to happen?' Aare we going to go back to those days when somebody if they wanted to keep a blind or disabled person out of anywhere, they would use the word 'fire hazard'. We would love to let you into the club, we would love to let you into the theatre, but you are in a fire hazard.Ìý And I, I...

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Peter White

Mm!Ìý Can I bring...

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Kevin Mulhern

...am wondering if the jobs worth is gonna comeback!

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Peter White

Yeah!Ìý Ellen, I think you you've been thinking about this too!Ìý This business of invulnerability and the tension between wanting to do things yourself, but then finding that actually people aren't there to do the things that you need doing.Ìý

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Ellen Williams

Yeah I mean its its a weird contradiction because like like Kevin was saying and and yourself were saying you know the diatribe that you take on is that you you want to be indep...independent, independence of the ultimate goal and that means doing everything you know to the best of your ability yourself.Ìý And then all of a sudden you're in this situation where you have to kind of confront the fact that you're not as maybe independent as you'd like to think you are or that you hope you'd be.Ìý The prime example of kind of the contradiction is the whole thing of the...at the beginning of lockdown, we weren't automatically assumed to be vulnerable enough to qualify for the support for the pro...priority of delivery slots from supermarkets, so we weren't vulnerable enough for that.Ìý But then also, we're not un-destructible either we're not entirely independent either, we do still need people, so where, where do you fit in on that kind of spectrum?

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Peter White

Mm!Ìý So have we been too successful at declaring how independent we actually are!Ìý Emma in a way you have this same problem about you know this issue of vulnerability and where we ask for help and where we don't, because you teach people daily living skills!Ìý And I've always thought one of the main daily living skills is knowing, how to ask for help.Ìý Do you think your gonna have to re...as it were rethink that or that their gonna have to rethink it?

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Emma Williams

The skills that we teach will have to be slightly different.Ìý And I think we'll have to do more work on getting our students to describe what they want someone to do for them.Ìý For example, something like can you describe to me where the chip n pin machine is rather than you know them...

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Peter White

Put my hand on it.

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Emma Williams

...you know put...putting their hands on on your hand and then and then you know guiding your hand to it.Ìý It's about knowing the the right things to say and about being confident in what what we say, so that people still do take us seriously.

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Peter White

I want to bring you onto a couple of specifics.Ìý First of all, employment! We've been getting two contrasting points of view from 'In Touch' listeners.Ìý One where people are saying we're bound to see higher unemployment for quite a while amongst the population as a whole.Ìý That's bad news for us.Ìý We had one email which said "We were at the back of the queue before; we're not at the back of a crowd".Ìý The other view though is more positive, it says people have had to be much more flexible about the way people work, working from home more reliance on technology accepting flexible hours, employers have had to do that and that that's going to work to our advantage, because people have seen what's possible.Ìý Who's right on that?Ìý I'm gonna go to Ellen first, because you're at the beginning of your working life.Ìý So what, what do you think, which of those two viewpoints rings true for you?

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Ellen Williams

I kind of think it's gonna make a difference as to whether you're in work before lockdown or not, so because of unemployment is going to be higher for the whole population, I think it's gonna automatically harder for a blind person to break into the job market because and never mind whatever you had to contend with before.Ìý Now you've got the added kind of challenge of the employers wondering, how their gonna accommodate you within the social distancing measures, so there's that to think about.Ìý And I also don't really know what working with a support worker is gonna look like after lockdown so like for my job?Ìý And my support worker, you know cos she she drives me places, she guides me a lot...a lot of her support that she provides is quite hands on.Ìý And I just, I can't imagine what that's gonna look like and that I don't know how much guidance we'll get with that to be honest.

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Peter White

Kevin, you've worked all your life you've done a lot of items about working.Ìý Well how do you see this current situation developing?

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Kevin Mulhern

I have never known any trend that's helped blind people or disabled people to get jobs.Ìý Now what this is going to do to people who are in employment, I think they've got a a better chance!Ìý But this whole terms' of social distancing you know the idea of being able to work from home.Ìý I remember trends about 40yrs ago, when people used to make the argument 'You never have to make the environment more accessible to anybody, because if you can have a computer, you could put a a blind or disabled person behind their computer and they could stay at home and that will solve the problems.Ìý I am worried that the trend to actually work from home, I think it will work against people who are blind.

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Peter White

Really!

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Kevin Mulhern

Because of the isolation issue again!

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Peter White

Emma you're pretty comfortable and competent with equipment.Ìý What, what's your cos we've got two complete contrary views there.Ìý The idea that computers you know it puts us, it can put us on equal terms and the idea that as Kevin said, it it isolates you or it could isolate you especially I I guess if you're not very good at it.Ìý

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Emma Williams

I suppose I can talk more in terms of my own job.Ìý My job is very hands on.Ìý I'm teaching our students to do things like cook, so I do do as much as possible in in terms of describing, but sometimes there's just nothing better than me putting my hand on their hand and showing them what to do.Ìý

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Peter White

Do you really think that we're going to have to abandon the whole idea of as it were hand on on hand, because you know it seems to me that that such a natural way to teach?

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Kevin Mulhern

I think the thing about hands on is if you...if you think about it, being blind your relationship with other people is very physical, it is very touchy.Ìý I mean the speech you know its fine, but you know people wearing masks and plastic!Ìý But I think I, I had friends who taught and who've said the hands on thing in teaching was getting hard enough bluntly because of the whole thing about inappropriate behaviour and inappropriate touching.

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Peter White

Yeah.

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Kevin Mulhern

And I remember saying to people at the time, but how is that every going to work in schools for the blind or using a blind pupil, because you have to touch each other?Ìý And I, I, I, I just do not know it it it really is quite amazing to think that the physicality that we've all lived with as blind people is at the moment a thing of the past.Ìý

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Peter White

Is it Emma?

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Emma Williams
I think Kevin's right, I mean I, I always when I'm with a student.Ìý I will always ask them you know is it okay for me to put my hand on your hand?Ìý You know they'll always say "Yes" because they want to know and its it's the best way of them finding out what their meant to be doing.Ìý There's gloves and you know we can sanitise you know worktops and equipment as much as possible, but I just don't know whether that's enough so it's definitely...

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Peter White

Yeah.

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Emma Williams

...gonna in in the short term, make my job quite a bit more difficult I think.

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Kevin Mulhern

Can I bring in a very selfish point and it is a very selfish point and partly its being stuck out of it and do not misunderstand me.Ìý When it it it almost when you compare this with the number of debts, the number of families wrecked.Ìý The NHS workers you know obviously on their knees actually dealing with this, you almost feel selfish even bringing it up!Ìý But when I hear that people want to put you know more street furniture out, so people can have coffees and their beers outside.Ìý People say 'cycle to work' and cyclists do not write and tell me...

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Peter White

They will.

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Kevin Mulhern

...they weren't very good people.Ìý I...

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Peter White.

They will.

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Kevin Mulhern

Yeah I know they will!Ìý But the point is I seem to meet the psycho...I do seem to meet the psychotic ones for some reason I obviously attract them.Ìý But the point is they idea of more people cycling and more street furniture out there and more there is bikes in London you know which people never quite put back and you fall over them etc. That there is this sense now particularly in Britain that in some way the blind, the disabled will be taking care of.Ìý And the the problems are not as great as those in many ways than the general public and that's not an in...insult to anybody out there, its, it's just the feeling.Ìý And I do think an awful lot of the back of the queuism is coming along.Ìý

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Peter White

And Emma, do...do you...does that worry you that we will see restrictions on on ourselves maybe that we've not seen that people wouldn't have contemplated for the last 20, 30, 40yrs?

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Emma Williams

I think it will happen, yeah.Ìý I think I I mean for me, I'm I'm concerned that myself as a n independent one person would go off shopping and go into a shop and say to the shop assistant "Can you help me choose clothes?"Ìý And I think people are gonna be more sort of unwilling to do that, which means that we're gonna have to rely more on sighted friends or care that we we may have to help with things like that, which which might mean then that we need you know to be asking for more hours of sort of personal assistant time.Ìý And and is that you know gonna be forthcoming you know and we gonna be able to have that kind of thing!

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Peter White

And Ellen, how much is that a a fear of yours, that we may see this kind of restriction and if so, how do we deal with it?

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Ellen Williams

I don't know about restriction, but yes my main worry is that we'll more get forgotten in in plans that are gonna be made now for how we move forward and how we get back to some kind of normal.Ìý So we're already seeing it with things like in shops for you know markings on the floor and with signage and stuff to to implement social distancing mea...measures that just aren't accessible.Ìý And going back to the public transport point that we made earlier, you know people are being encouraged to cycle or drive or or use e-bikes and e-scooters and whatever else to to to get around.Ìý And the same as like temporary cycle lanes and extending pavements by using bus lanes is def...is gonna be implemented as strategies, but there just there there not feasible for for blind people.Ìý So I I guess I just worry that we won't...we'll we'll just get forgotten.

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Peter White

And what's the answer to that, cos this is your generation, you're the person whose gonna kind of I know I live through this and because you can argue that perhaps you know the the self advocacy of blind people, it's not as strong as it once was.Ìý I, I wonder what you think needs to happen if our voices are gonna be heard.

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Ellen Williams

Well it it needs to be made more of a political issue.Ìý I think your right in terms of there's a bigger move amount moving sorry, movement now in terms of bloggers and and and people online raising awareness of of things about daily life as a V.I person, but there's not as much political activism, so I guess that's where we need to go back too.

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Peter White

Well that's going to be people like you I think! That's that's all we've got time for.Ìý Thank you very much indeed.Ìý We'd love to hear your comments on any of the things that we've discussed or indeed, the things that we've left out.Ìý You can email 'intouch@bbc.co.uk' you can go to our website 'bbc.co.uk/intouch' where as I'm sure you know by now you can download tonight's programme and many other additions of In Touch as well.Ìý Many thanks to Emma Williams, to Ellen Williams their not related, but maybe sisters under the skin and Kevin Mulhern and from me Peter White, Producer Kev Core and Studio Manager Sue Stonestreet.Ìý Goodbye.