大象传媒

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IN TOUCH 鈥� E-scooters, audio description and gaming

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TX:听 07.07.20听 2040-2100

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PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 LOUISE CLARKE-ROWBOTHAM

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White

Good evening.听 Tonight, in the world of entertainment who鈥檚 including visually impaired people and who鈥檚 leaving us out?听 Well, it seems, it鈥檚 a thumbs down for some streaming services.

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Clip

And when you kind of think 鈥� oh, well, that TV show is really popular at the minute and then you鈥檙e kind of like 鈥� oh, well, I can鈥檛 watch it because it doesn鈥檛 have audio description.

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White

But a thumbs up for the latest computer game craze.

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Clip

I鈥檝e just managed to get so far with it, just because of all these accessibility options that have been packed into one game.

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White

We鈥檝e been hearing from two gamers about the release of The last of us 2.听 And if you don鈥檛 know what that is, well, you鈥檒l find out soon.

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But before all that鈥�

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E-scooter sounds

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鈥�that鈥檚 the sound of the E-scooter 鈥� a bit like a skateboard, which you can power with your trailing foot and which can achieve speeds of up to 30 miles an hour.听 Well, its arrival is imminent, like it or not, and it seems like a lot of blind and partially sighted people don鈥檛 like it.听 The government sees it as a cheap relatively green solution to getting people out of their cars and taking pressure off public transport.听 Visual impairment organisations, like the National Federation of the Blind, see it as potentially dangerous, a trip hazard when they鈥檙e dumped on the pavement and difficult to hear approaching.听 But they are now legal on roads and any local authority can apply to be part of a year long trial, with Tees Valley and Middlesbrough looking most likely to be the first.

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I鈥檝e been talking to David Davies, he鈥檚 from Pacts, that鈥檚 the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety, that鈥檚 a charity which advises parliament on road safety issues.听 I suggested to him these trials have been brought forward by a year, what did he feel about the level of consultation 鈥� had there been enough?

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Davies

No, there hasn鈥檛 been enough.听 We鈥檙e disappointed that it鈥檚 been rushed through on a very limited consultation, which hasn鈥檛 been published and the full consultation, in fact, only closed on Friday.听 The government has said that鈥檚 partly in response to the Covid-19 crisis and the need to give people other opportunities to travel.听 And I do accept that we are in very strange times but we are still concerned about this being rushed through.

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White

So, what are your main concerns about the E-scooter?

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Davies

There are some very nasty casualties resulting from people falling from E-scooters, occasionally being hit by traffic.听 But I think our bigger concern, in many ways, is the impact this might have on walking and on pedestrians, particularly on the visually impaired.听 The risks are that people will use them on the pavements and of course, when they鈥檙e finished with, the so-called floating or dockless schemes, people leave them lying all over the pavements, so they鈥檙e a trip hazard and we have concerns about that, as I say, particularly, for visually impaired people.

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White

We鈥檇 better make it clear, at the moment you can only have rented E-scooters on the road, that鈥檚 true isn鈥檛 it?

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Davies

That鈥檚 what the government is proposing, absolutely, but we are concerned that all those people who have bought their own scooters will take this as a green light to use them and we know, from the police, that they鈥檙e going to be in a very difficult situation and find it very difficult to distinguish between rental schemes and private use.

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White

And what about the issue of how 鈥� the kind of noise they make?听 I mean we hear the noise there but I know some people are worried and, of course, quite a lot of visually impaired people have hearing problems as well.

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Davies

Well, that is an additional problem.听 As I say, no one鈥檚 suggesting they should be authorised for use on the pavement in the UK but that will almost certainly happen, to some extent.听 Interestingly, one of the main providers 鈥� one of the main selling companies 鈥� of E-scooters is recommending that they should be fitted with bells, so that might help.

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White

And the issue of dumping 鈥� because these dockless bikes, for example, they cause problems.听 Again, do we know what the evidence is?听 I know in Germany, for instance, that鈥檚 regarded as quite a problem by blind organisations there.

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Davies

I think it is.听 I was in Stockholm in February and they were littering the pavements, the pedestrian areas, over there.听 It鈥檚 an issue in Brussels, I鈥檝e seen it there in Brussels too.听 And councils in this country have struggled already to cope with the dockless bike schemes and we鈥檙e not convinced that codes of conduct and so forth will crack it.

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White

The trials are starting, some may be even this week, is this, as far as the government is concerned, a done deal, do you think?

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Davies

We accept it鈥檚 going ahead now and so we鈥檙e trying to establish safe procedures and monitor what鈥檚 happening properly because we would like the councils, if they鈥檙e going to go ahead, to fully inform themselves about the risks and the benefits; to choose schemes where the scooters are returned to docking stations and not so-called dockless schemes which block the pavement; we鈥檇 like them to insist on scooters which are not the full speed or weight or power which the government is permitting;听 we鈥檇 like them to publish clear plans on how scooter use on the pavement is going to be prevented and they also need to provide means for everybody, including visually impaired people, to report what is happening as it鈥檚 going.

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White

David Davies.听

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We鈥檇 like your comments please, especially if you鈥檝e had direct experience of them, perhaps elsewhere.

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Now, audio description 鈥� that鈥檚 the technique of explaining during the quiet bits what鈥檚 happening in a film or a TV documentary 鈥� has been with us for well over 30 years.听 But the charity Scope says that increasingly popular streaming and catchup services are often ignoring the needs of visually impaired subscribers, with a very patchy audio description service.听 Scope has done their own survey and we鈥檒l be hearing about that in a moment but first, Holly Tuke explained how she uses streaming services and the frustrations over audio description.

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Tuke

So, on many TV shows and films there just isn鈥檛 any audio description available, meaning that blind and visually impaired people, like myself, miss out on some of the most popular TV shows that we really want to watch.听 So, for example, I wanted to watch Normal People and I couldn鈥檛 do that at the time because on the Catchup service there was only a few episodes with audio description and a couple actually didn鈥檛.听 So, at the time of 鈥� when everyone else was wanting to watch it and there was all the hype around it 鈥� I kind of missed out on that because I was like 鈥� well, if I watch so many episodes and then I鈥檓 going to get to the couple of episodes that don鈥檛 have the audio description and it just left me feeling a bit frustrated.

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White

And you use the phrase 鈥渓ike everybody else does鈥�, just explain what the 鈥� you know, the significance of that.

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Tuke

We want to experience the same things as non-disabled people and we want to be treated equally and feel I included, just like sighted people and the rest of society.听 So, I think the kind of phrase 鈥渓ike everyone else鈥� really highlights the importance of inclusion and equality.

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White

Because half the fun of these things are of talking to people about them when they鈥檙e all the rage, isn鈥檛 it?

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Tuke

Yeah, so, TV shows and films are definitely a big part of everyone鈥檚 life, whether you watch a little bit of TV or whether you binge watch TV, we all watch it at some point.听 And it鈥檚 a discussion that we might have with our friends or family.听 And when you think 鈥� oh well, that TV show is really popular at the minute and then you鈥檙e kind of like 鈥� oh well, I can鈥檛 watch it because it doesn鈥檛 have audio description or I can watch it but I may be missed out on that thing you鈥檙e talking about because the show didn鈥檛 have audio description.

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White

What would you like to see done?

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Tuke

I鈥檇 really like companies to prioritise accessibility.听 So, I would like them to see that accessibility is a priority rather than an afterthought.听 And I鈥檇 like everything, hopefully, to be audio described, not just a small percentage of it.

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White

Holly Tuke.

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Well, Kristina Barrick is Head of Digital Influencing for Scope.

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Kristina, tell us about your survey and what it actually found.

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Barrick

I run a programme at Scope called the Big Hack, about how accessible the online world is but there was a really common theme coming out which was around streaming platforms.听 So, we thought let鈥檚 do a lot of research into this and find out what鈥檚 going on.听 So, what we found is that 80% of people who did the survey had experienced issues using streaming services.

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White

So, who have done well and who have done less well?听 And, of course, we鈥檙e particularly interested, on In Touch, on the issue of audio description, as Holly explained.

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Barrick

Yeah, so, this was really interesting.听 So, what we found was that the main broadcasters that we have in the UK did really well, they were in the top five and that鈥檚 probably because they鈥檝e been under Ofcom regulations for so long.听 So, they just transferred the knowledge they already had on to their online streaming platforms.听 We also found that Disney plus did the best.听 I mean they鈥檙e brand new, they weren鈥檛 dealing with any legacy systems, so, they really designed it from the bottom up with accessibility in mind and that was really impressive but also shows that if you鈥檙e starting from scratch it鈥檚 easier to do.

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So, we did find that the more recent, more new, disruptive brands came in quite lower down.听 So, essentially, they haven鈥檛 thought about accessibility.听 A lot of them came quite low down in the league table because they just failed to give us their data.

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White

Some of the failures that Holly talked about are really strange.听 I mean why would a platform have some episodes of a show and not others?

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Barrick

Yeah, I don鈥檛 think that鈥檚 鈥� I doubt very much that that鈥檚 done on purpose, to be honest that came from the 大象传媒 and they are 鈥� we know that they鈥檙e very good at accessibility.听 I reckon they just made a mistake there and apparently, they鈥檝e put it back on now, so, that鈥檚 good.

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White

So, what kind of reasons do platforms give for not providing audio description or not providing it consistently?

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Barrick

So, they say that it鈥檚 difficult.听 I mean we went and we talked to Netflix and basically, I think it鈥檚 鈥� it鈥檚 not because it鈥檚 difficult, it鈥檚 because it鈥檚 an afterthought.听 And essentially, if the regulations were stricter and if this is really acted upon and if the regulations even spread to video on demand players in the first players, which they don鈥檛, they鈥檙e just for broadcast, then these platforms would know that to operate they would have to think about accessibility but it just isn鈥檛 at the forefront of their thinking.

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White

Kristina Barrick, thank you very much.

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And, after a couple of could do much betters, here, at last is a vote of confidence.

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I鈥檓 going to find and I鈥檓 going to kill.

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White

That鈥檚 the sound of The last of us 2 and for the uninitiated into the world of computer games, which includes me, this is the new blockbuster PlayStation 4 game.听 It continues the story of a post-apocalyptic world of human stragglers, doing their best to survive in a world where humans have been transformed into cannibalistic monsters by a mutated fungus.听 Get the idea?听 And if you鈥檙e puzzling why we鈥檙e featuring it on In Touch, blind and partially sighted players have hailed it, literally, as a game changer.听 There are 60 accessibility settings and a host of features, which mean that you can play it without seeing it.听 One man who鈥檚 tried it is the accessibility consultant and gamer Sightless Kombat, that鈥檚 his brand name.听 We鈥檒l hear from him in a moment but first, I asked Steve Saylor, who worked on the game, 50 years on from the first commercially available titles, what has gaming been like for blind people in the past.

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Saylor

Well, it鈥檚 been a while, it鈥檚 been a journey, to say the least.听 Growing up, for me, in the 鈥�80s I had my first foray into video games was from the original Nintendo system.听 And, at first, I really didn鈥檛 think that my disability of being visually impaired was the thing that got in the way but I just always kind of had 鈥� thought I sucked at video games.听 And it wasn鈥檛 until very much later into my early 30s when I realised that there was a lot in video games that wasn鈥檛 really catering to anyone with 鈥� who are blind or visually impaired.听 So, it definitely has been a journey for us but now, at least, we have a game that we can look to and be like 鈥� this is a great example of how you can actually be able to do blind accessibility and do it right.

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White

And that 鈥� your visual impairment 鈥� when you began to realise difficulties, is what kind of prompted you to become involved in consulting on the game?

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Saylor

Yes, actually, a very quick story.听 Essentially, how I figured it out was, at the time, I was just a You Tuber who was 鈥� my niche was that I was blind and I would just do it to entertain my friends.听 But I was invited to an accessibility summit for a bunch of game developers and it was put on by Ubisoft and they invited me to be on a panel as just a gamer and it wasn鈥檛 until, literally, in the middle of that panel that I鈥檇 realised how much accessibility matters within the industry.听 And I鈥檇 been telling myself, like I said, that I sucked at video games my entire life but it was then that I realised that it was actually video games that sucked for me.听 And it was from that moment on, in 2017, that I was like 鈥� okay, accessibility is where I really need to look into and start advocating for.

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White

Right, well, as you were involved in the development of this game, it鈥檚 fair to have an independent voice and that voice is the online presence known as Sightless Kombat.听 You鈥檙e an accessibility consultant too but a blind gamer and you鈥檝e played it.听 So, what鈥檚 the verdict and tell us a bit about what makes it so successful.

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Sightless Kombat

It鈥檚 really, really good.听 I鈥檝e played over 26 hours, I think it was, I looked the other day and I鈥檇 been playing for a while.听 I鈥檝e just managed to get so far with it, just because of all these accessibility options that have been packed into one game.听 There are other games that have used these features before in varying degrees and to varying levels of success but I don鈥檛 think any game has actually managed to put all of the options that are used in this particular tale into one package yet and now, of course, that鈥檚 happened.

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White

I mean just take us through how it works, with a simple example, maybe, how would you 鈥� someone without sight 鈥� shoot one of the infected in the game.

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Sightless Kombat

Okay, so, essentially, say I鈥檓 in a 鈥� say I鈥檓 sort of in a prone position, so the enemies can鈥檛 see me necessarily 鈥� it鈥檚 depends what you鈥檙e dealing with 鈥� all I鈥檇 do is I鈥檇 hold down my aim button 鈥� so, L2 on the PS4 controller 鈥� and I鈥檇 hear, if I鈥檝e got the settings set to automatically target, it would then lock on to the enemy鈥檚 centre of mass and then if I want to try and get a head shot 鈥� so to get a quicker kill and deal with that infected more easily 鈥� I would aim upwards with my right analogue stick slightly and the cue would change in pitch and then if it stays like that for a little while then I know I can take that shot and guarantee it.听 So, it鈥檚 all about sort of strategy and tactics with it really.

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White

But with sound and a bit like radar, if you like, are the sort of things that maybe blind sailors/yachtsmen use, that kind of thing?

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Sightless Kombat

Yeah possibly, yeah.

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White

Steve Saylor, have the developers essentially, started, finally, to understand that they鈥檝e been driving away potential customers?

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Saylor

Yeah, I would say definitely because it鈥檚 鈥� developers are starting to see that accessibility is extremely important and that there is a human factor to it, it鈥檚 not necessarily just a bunch of concepts or a bunch of options anymore, it鈥檚 really about the human factor.听 I鈥檝e gone to developers where that has been the case, where they鈥檝e basically just like 鈥� okay, we just want to be able to check off a bunch of options and they鈥檙e wondering if 鈥� okay, are we doing this right and not really being able to make any changes because they thought about accessibility later in the process.听 But what Naughty Dog had done and done right was that we 鈥� the sightless and myself and other consultants 鈥� have been saying is that if you start from the very beginning of the development process it makes it a lot easier to be able to develop it and make changes as you go and then also bringing in consultants to provide feedback and then offer ideas that they hadn鈥檛 even thought of because a lot of them don鈥檛 have the disability that they鈥檙e designing for.听 So, having that direct user feedback is really important.听 And now I think developers are going to see this as a roadmap to 鈥� because they鈥檙e all trying to figure out how to be able to do accessibility correctly and now with Naughty Dog and The last of us part 2, there鈥檚 an extremely good example that other studios can essentially copy and has a roadmap to be 鈥� if you want to do accessibility right you can do it this way.

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White

That鈥檚 Sightless Kombat and Steve Saylor.

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And if you have any comments on the world of accessible computer games do share them with us.听 You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk or go to our website 鈥� bbc.co.uk/intouch where you can download tonight鈥檚 and many other editions of the programme.

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That鈥檚 it from me, Peter White, producer Louise Clarke-Rowbotham and studio manager Mike Smith.听 Goodbye.