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IN TOUCH 鈥� Virtual pubs, robot guide dogs and face masks

TX:听 04.08.20听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 LOUISE CLARKE-ROWBOTHAM

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White

Good evening.听 Tonight, we meet the guide dog that doesn鈥檛 bark and we visit the pub where you don鈥檛 have to pay for a pint.听 More details later.听

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But first, amongst the new regulations brought in over the weekend to try to halt the feared resurgence of coronavirus, are more places where you鈥檒l be required to wear facemasks, including museums and art galleries.听 There are exemptions to wearing them, including for people with reduced vision or who need to be able to lip read.听 But Sense, the organisation which represents people with more complex disabilities, including the dual disabilities of deafness and blindness, is calling on the government to be much clearer about the reasons for these exemptions to prevent potentially distressing incidents like this one:

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Voices

I鈥檓 sat here, I鈥檝e watched you wipe out your mask, you鈥檝e got to wear the mask 鈥� yeah?

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[Talking over]

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Excuse me.

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She鈥檚 just told me you鈥檙e deaf/blind but you鈥檙e talking to me.

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I鈥檓 here because you鈥檙e shouting.

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Can you please just do what Usher鈥檚 Syndrome is, have some awareness and Google it.

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White

Well that was happening on a train recently.听 Sarah White is Head of Public Policy and Campaigns for Sense.听 Sarah, first of all, I mean, just explain 鈥� because obviously it鈥檚 slightly confusing what we鈥檙e hearing 鈥� what was actually happening there?

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Sarah White

So, what you鈥檙e listening to there is two individuals who were on a train and one of the individuals has Usher鈥檚 Syndrome, which is a common cause of deaf blindness and they were communicating on the train and as per the guidance her sister had lowered her mask in order for her to be able to lip read her, to communicate, and a member of the public, who was sat opposite, viewed that as somebody not following the rules about wearing masks, that there was an excuse not to wear a mask and that the couple were pretending that they had a reason not to wear the mask.听 And so, what then happened is an argument about whether or not these individuals should be wearing masks on the train and just generally shows a lack of understanding of the needs of people to communicate.

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White

And just to be clear, Usher鈥檚 Syndrome means that you may have partial deafness and partial blindness, it doesn鈥檛 necessarily mean that you are fully deafblind.听

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Sarah White

Exactly and the word deafblind doesn鈥檛 necessarily mean that someone has no sight or no hearing, it鈥檚 a combination of sight and hearing impairment which varies depending on who you are.听 Some people can hear a little bit, some people can鈥檛 hear at all and different people will communicate differently depending on their needs.

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White

So just explain, in this particular case why did the lady we heard have to raise her mask?

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Sarah White

So, the lady who she was communicating with has a hearing loss and relies on lip reading to be able to understand what someone is saying to her.听 So, she hears some things but also uses lip reading to add that additional bit of information.听 So, the person she was traveling with had lowered her mask so that her companion could read her lips and was about to raise it again but it was that ambiguity that is what confused the member of the public on the train because you鈥檙e saying, on the one hand you鈥檙e deaf but on the other hand you can lip read and it got very complicated.

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White

And heated, as you can understand.

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How common do you think this kind of thing is?

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Sarah White

We know that public understanding and awareness of deaf blindness is low anyway but we鈥檙e really concerned as we move forward into this time where face coverings are going to be used more that we鈥檙e just going to see this sort of incident increase.听 We know other charities have also reported increasing reports of people being challenged in public and we also know of other people who we鈥檝e spoken to who are really anxious about going out and about in case they鈥檙e challenged.

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White

So, what exactly is Sense asking the government to do about this?

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Sarah White

So, what we鈥檙e asking for them to do is to be really clear about the mask and face covering rules.听 We鈥檙e actually really pleased to see that the guidance is very clear and says that individuals who may struggle to wear a face covering don鈥檛 need to but we need to see that communicated more clearly.

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White

I mean we鈥檝e heard from the cabinet office; they say: 鈥淥ur guidance clearly states that some people, including disabled people and those who have invisible impairments or conditions such as mental illness, do not need to wear face coverings if they feel unable to do so.鈥澨� And they go on to say: 鈥淲e鈥檝e also collaborated with a number of disabled people鈥檚 organisations to create an example exemption card for those who feel more comfortable being able to show them.听 We will continue to work with Sense to better understand the concerns of disabled people and ensure our guidance is as inclusive as possible.鈥澨� Haven鈥檛 they actually done as much as you could expect them to do?

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Sarah White

What they鈥檝e done there is absolutely fantastic and we agree and it鈥檚 been really great working with them.听 I think, as ever, the guidance is there it鈥檚 about how we get the public awareness and understanding of that.听 And I think it鈥檚 when you see scenarios like the government press conferences where actually throughout coronavirus disabled people haven鈥檛 been referenced or mentioned and on Friday the Prime Minister announced that this week the guidance will be changing again.听 It would be fantastic to see some leadership at that level, which calls out and says please bear in mind that some people won鈥檛 be able to wear masks.听 But it鈥檚 also about how we get that information down to ground level, so how can we be working with supermarkets and shops and settings where face coverings might be needed to be worn that makes people feel that they won鈥檛 be challenged or feel comfortable to go out.

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White

I mean would an exemption card really have made much difference in this case; would that angry lady have known what one was?

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Sarah White

Sadly, I don鈥檛 think it would, I think if people want to and feel comfortable carrying exemption cards I think that鈥檚 great but I think in that situation it just highlights that actually they were presenting that woman with all the information they needed to but it still wasn鈥檛 getting through and I think that highlights a wider issue.

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White

She probably didn鈥檛 go home and Google it.

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What do you fear will be the effects on people who are both deaf and blind if incidents like this continue?

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Sarah White

We鈥檙e really concerned that we鈥檙e going to see that many deafblind people will feel anxious about leaving the house.听 We鈥檝e all had our lives impacted in one way or another by coronavirus and we know that many deafblind people have been very anxious to leave the house for various reasons, your normal routines have been changed, normal everyday activities such as shopping have not been as straightforward or easy as possible and we鈥檙e worried that just at the point people were beginning to get their confidence up and feel able to go out and about and do those tasks again that confidence is going to be knocked and that we鈥檙e going to see people frightened to leave their homes.

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White

Sarah White, thank you very much indeed.

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And if you鈥檝e got views on exemption cards, we鈥檇 like to hear them.

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Now, meanwhile, the challenges of finding your way around when you鈥檙e visually impaired continue.听 But one Loughborough University student has set his mind to trying to come up with a solution.听 It鈥檚 been dubbed a robot guide dog by the newspapers but, as we鈥檒l see, that鈥檚 a bit of an oversimplification.听

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Anthony Camu is an industrial design and technology student and his prototype is a portable handheld device, which he hopes will guide users through outdoor environments and large indoor spaces with very little user input.听 But is it something that blind people will use instead of a cane or an actual guide dog?

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Well we鈥檒l talk a bit more about that in a moment but first, Anthony, just explain how does it work?

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Camu

Yeah, the best way to describe it is it is a guide dog sort of in your hand, it鈥檚 a handheld device.听 And it鈥檚 a device that sort of moves your hand around to try and communicate what鈥檚 in front of you.听 But it doesn鈥檛 just communicate what鈥檚 in front of you, it leads you as well, so, it鈥檚 making critical walking decisions for you, real time, as you鈥檙e walking along pavements, for example.听 This was critical in reducing the amount of time the visually impaired or blind person has to think about what they鈥檙e doing.听 This essentially allows them to walk at the same pace as or even faster than ordinary pedestrians.

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White

And what鈥檚 actually driving it because it鈥檚 not like some of the equipment that鈥檚 gone before, like GPS or like a Sat Nav, is it, can you just explain how it can direct you?

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Camu

First of all, you have the sensor system, so these are a set of cameras and radar, so those are for building up a three-dimensional picture of the surroundings, if you like.听 And then this information is then processed by artificial intelligence and deep learning and these basically assign attributes to what is going on in the data and then basically from this information they try to figure out paths for you to get to your final destination.听 So, that includes everything from point A to point B and anything that could happen in between to any potential hazards or obstacles that come along.听 And then from this information, from all this data, it鈥檚 fed through to a force feedback system which effectively simulates the feeling of holding a guide dog鈥檚 brace, it was that sort of key interaction of communicating what these algorithms were trying to say to the user and this is done through a talk motor.听 Essentially it is providing the resistance and pull you get from a dog鈥檚 leash, so it鈥檚 moving around in your hand, literally leading you along.

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White

Well, listening to that is Angela Wood, Angela is Chair of Hab Vi UK, that鈥檚 an organisation that supports those who teach mobility and daily living skills.

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Angela, first of all, I mean, there have been a lot of devices available to blind and partially sighted people for many decades now, yet none of them have ever really taken off or indeed replaced the cane or the dog, why do you think that is?

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Wood

I think there are a number of factors why electronic mobility aids haven鈥檛 taken off.听 I think cost is a major factor.听 If an electronic aid retails around 拢600, that鈥檚 a lot of money for one person, it鈥檚 a considered purchase.听 And a local authority could provide 13 ultralight graphite long canes to the equivalent of one cane.听 So, that makes the standard long cane much more affordable. 听Long canes, in themselves, rely on that haptic, that touch feedback, to locate obstacles and it gives those obstacles definition, so you can identify a metal A-frame outside of a shop, you can identify a wooden fence, a brick wall and that helps with your orientation and navigation.听 You can identify the ground surface 鈥� tarmac, paving slabs 鈥� it gives you a lot of information which is useful for travelling.听 Electronic mobility aids can often be quite vague in the information that you receive.听 They will help someone to know that they鈥檙e approaching an obstacle, it won鈥檛 give you that feedback, that definition of what the obstacle is.

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White

Yeah, because one of the things which is often said by blind people is that the problem with a lot of these gizmos is that the information they give you can actually distract from your natural orientation given to you by the use of your ears plus a cane, as you鈥檙e saying.听 But it sounds as if Anthony鈥檚 prototype may be getting round that because it鈥檚 something you hold in your hand, you鈥檙e not wearing anything, so 鈥� and it鈥檚 very early days but it might 鈥� he might be finding a way round that 鈥� it is steering you as a dog would.

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Wood

Yes, and it sounds very, very interesting and I think habilitation specialists are always looking out for new devices that we can trial and we can use to build up a profile of a range of mobility aids that can be used by different people for different journeys.听 And it鈥檚 that toolkit of resources really.听 I mean I work with young people from nought to 25 and there鈥檚 no other stage in a person鈥檚 life where we undergo so many changes, so the needs of young people change quite rapidly.听 And so, over time, within education, they build up a toolkit of resources.

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White

But are the dog and the cane likely to disappear any time soon?

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Wood

I don鈥檛 think so.听 In all honesty, the guide dog is not just a mobility aid, it鈥檚 a very efficient mobility aid but it is also a companion and I think the positive impact that a guide dog can have on a person鈥檚 mental health is something very difficult to replace using an electronic mobility aid.

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White

Angela Wood, Anthony Camu 鈥� thank you very much indeed.

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And we鈥檇 like your comments please.

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Now, some pubs have reopened at last but if you鈥檙e put off returning to them by talk of signing in with your personal details, one-way systems to walk round, sanitisers on the bar instead of snacks, you might like to sample Dr Amy Kavanagh鈥檚 online pub, especially as visually impaired customers are among those who are particularly welcome.听 It鈥檚 called The Staying Inn 鈥� I n n 鈥� get it?听 And Amy, the visually impaired landlady, can tell us a bit more about it.

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So, how did you come up with this idea?

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Kavanagh

Well it started as a bit of fun really.听 Everyone was doing Zoom calls and video conferencing and I鈥檓 already part of a nice online community, on social media and as the calls got bigger and we joked that we were going to the pub, I said, well why not make it something more formal and open to everyone.

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White

So, who鈥檚 particularly welcome?

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Kavanagh

Well, it is run by disabled people for disabled people but we do welcome anyone that is maybe feeling a bit isolated, people who were shielding and maybe continuing to shield, anyone who needs a friendly online accessible space.

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White

I鈥檝e heard of a few people who鈥檝e tried to recreate the pub atmosphere online, so how does yours differ because you still say you welcome anyone, so how does it differ, particularly say, for visually impaired people from the others?

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Kavanagh

So, we really make a big effort to be as accessible as possible to everyone and we always take on feedback about how we can improve that experience.听 People are encouraged to audio describe things, maybe if they鈥檝e got a background up.听 We have a British Sign Language interpreter and live captions at all of our events.听 We keep it quite interactive; people can engage however they want 鈥� they can have their camera on or they can just type in the chat box or just listen along 鈥� whatever suits them best.

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White

I know, for example, you have pub quizzes and of course, what happens in bricks and mortar pubs is you have a picture round and we all groan.听 How do you get round that?

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Kavanagh

We don鈥檛 have one.

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White

Simple as that?

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Kavanagh

Yeah.

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White

And what are some of the other things that you鈥檙e offering as far as events?

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Kavanagh

Ah well, just anything and everything.听 What鈥檚 great is that our regulars, they offer their skills, so it鈥檚 not just an opportunity for fun, we鈥檝e had disability advocacy sessions, we鈥檝e had a British Sign Language lesson, we have a craft club, we鈥檙e doing interviews 鈥� we鈥檙e interviewing Haben Girma, the amazing deafblind lawyer and activist, next week.听 We鈥檝e got a book club.听 You name it, if we can make it work online, we鈥檒l do it.

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White

Well, Jurgen Donaldson [phon.] is now a regular at the Staying Inn, Jurgen how did you find it and what make you stay?

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Donaldson

I first came across it through Amy鈥檚 Twitter, like she said, from the wider social media kind of community.听 For me, I mean the pub quiz was fantastic because I guess it was the first time in a long time I鈥檇 gone to a pub quiz where I didn鈥檛 feel like an afterthought.听 I lost my sight 12 months ago, the idea of getting back to the pub and kind of returning to normal seems pretty far off right now, so being able to recreate it from the safety of my sofa has been fantastic.

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White

I take it you have to provide your own booze?

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Donaldson

I do, but thankfully I鈥檝e got a good stock of tins of gin and tonic in the fridge, for all eventualities.

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White

But you are finding that you can sort of take part in everything that goes on?

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Donaldson

Completely, absolutely, it鈥檚 鈥� everything that鈥檚 kind of all of the events you can definitely take part in.

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White

Amy, what鈥檚 the response been like generally?

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Kavanagh

It鈥檚 been really, really positive, especially in the early stages of the lockdown, because we started in March.听 There were people coming on saying we were the only voices they鈥檇 heard all week that weren鈥檛 on the telly or the radio.听 And it鈥檚 become such a positive, supportive growing community.听 We have over 600 people on our newsletter now and we regularly have events of around 40, 50 people.

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White

So, will this carry on when the restrictions on real pubs, if I can call them that, are lifted, if that ever happens?

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Kavanagh

Well we will keep going as long as we have the money to do so.听 It鈥檚 expensive to provide all these access costs and rely on fundraising through a Go Fund Me and I want it to keep going, there are lots of pubs that are inaccessible anyway, this turns out to be a great space for disabled people and why not keep it going.

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White

Might drop in myself.听 Dr Amy Kavanagh, Jurgen Donaldson 鈥� thank you both very much indeed.

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You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk or go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch, from where you can download tonight鈥檚 and many other editions of the programme.

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From me, Peter White, producer Louise Clarke-Rowbotham and studio manager, this week, Mike Smith.听 Goodbye. 听