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IN TOUCH 鈥� Back To School, Safer Travel On Public Transport

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TX:听 01.09.20听 2040-2100

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PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 MIKE YOUNG

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White

Good evening.听 Tonight, how to juggle getting back to something like normal with staying safe.听 Listener Dennis Deacy sums up the dilemma many people face.

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Deacy

It would be good to get back to the office to see colleagues.听 Obviously looking into that they鈥檙e now concerned about how to get from home to work safely and reduce the risk of getting the virus.

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White

Well, we鈥檒l be hearing more from Dennis and we鈥檝e called up the cavalry to get some safety advice tailored to visually impaired people.

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But first, Scotland and Northern Ireland have already embarked on it, England and Wales are just getting the process underway.听 It鈥檚 back to school.听 But in all the debates about what safety measures need to be put in place and how they can be made to work well, how much have you heard about how blind and partially sighted children will manage and how to keep everyone safe 鈥� staff as well as pupils 鈥� without compromising the independence of visually impaired pupils.听 The students, themselves, recognise the challenge.听 This is Carly Holder, who goes to the Royal National College in Hereford:

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Holder

When I go out at the moment some people have the understanding of I can鈥檛 see them, so they have to go around me and my dog but at the same time it鈥檚 so much harder when two people can鈥檛 see each other before you鈥檙e too close or things like that, to sort of realise.听 Or for someone who hasn鈥檛 got any depth perception to think they鈥檙e two metres apart or one metre, or however far they need to be apart, but actually they鈥檙e not.听 But I think with RNC they will give the guidance that is needed and they would never put a student in a position where they would feel uncomfortable.

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White

Well, like mainstream schools the Royal National College and other specialist schools have been offering online teaching throughout lockdown.听 But one school which won鈥檛 be starting completely from scratch when its students come back in a few days鈥� time is St Vincent鈥檚 School in Liverpool.听 After closing when lockdown began St Vincent鈥檚 reopened after half term this summer.听 So, what did they do and what have they learned from the experience for the year ahead?听

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Bob Birchall is Chief Executive of the Catholic Blind Institute, that鈥檚 the charity which runs St Vincent鈥檚.听 He鈥檚 been telling me about their plans but began by giving a bit more background about the school.

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Birchall

It鈥檚 primary and secondary. 听Now we鈥檙e quite 鈥� we鈥檙e relatively small in terms of pupil numbers.听 Our core pupil base is 37 pupils.

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White

And when you started back last half term what changes did you make straightaway?

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Birchall

Our first consideration was for health and safety and the health and wellbeing of all pupils and staff really.听 So, we were doing temperature checks, practising social distancing, allowing people in one at a time into the school building.

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White

And did all the children come back?

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Birchall

We bring people in from as far afield as Berkshire, so not everybody was in a position to come back, we ended up with 26 pupils back.

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White

So, can we get into specifics a bit here 鈥� what procedures are you using to make social distancing practicable?听 How have you coped with Carly鈥檚 obvious point that two visually impaired people approaching each other from opposite directions might not always be able to achieve social distancing, just to give one example.

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Birchall

We鈥檝e looked at timetables to make sure that there aren鈥檛 too many peak congestion times within communal zones like corridors.听 We鈥檝e enhanced cleaning regimes, so that areas that might be touched are cleaned and disinfected on a very regular basis and hopefully in between different groups going through.

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White

I鈥檝e heard of some schools for visually impaired children where what they鈥檙e doing is when you have a change of classroom it鈥檚 the staff who move, rather than the pupils 鈥� is that what you鈥檙e doing?

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Birchall

No, we鈥檙e still having people move around.听 This is where our physical layout helps us because we do have the luxury of some space, we鈥檙e able to move people in a more orderly way than might be the case in a larger school.

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White

I went to a blind school and anyone who has the idea that we all kind of walked around very carefully feeling our way along the walls can forget it, you know, we ran, we chased, we fought, so, how is it really going to work?

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Birchall

We鈥檙e very keen to keep that vibrant atmosphere that you talk about.听 We鈥檙e going to have timed areas where individual bubbles can be together, so they can remain together; there can be zoned areas, so, in the dining hall we can have people in there but they can still remain socially distanced in there.听 So, we can retain that interaction but in a safe way.

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White

I must ask you about masks, Bob.听 Given the extent to which masks can perhaps impede blind people鈥檚 natural sense of their environment, what鈥檚 your policy going to be about them?

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Birchall

We鈥檙e quite comfortable that we have in place the strategies where social distancing can be practised, so it means that we feel a little bit more flexibility on the use of masks in those sorts of communal areas or corridors, which might be a problem in a larger school environment.听 There鈥檚 still an ongoing conversation about the use of masks but we鈥檙e making sure that we can provide masks and all PPE that鈥檚 sensible and appropriate if that鈥檚 what people want.

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White

But you will 鈥� do I take it from that 鈥� you expect to be able to exercise your discretion as a school?

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Birchall

Yes, we do.听 However, advice and guidance can change very, very quickly at the moment.听 The risk assessment programmes that we have in place will continue to be refined over that week before the school gates open.

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White

Bob Birchall from St Vincent鈥檚 School in Liverpool.

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Of course, mainstream schools are also facing the challenge of welcoming back visually impaired pupils after lockdown.听 We鈥檇 be very interested in hearing from pupils, parents and teachers about how that鈥檚 going as the term progresses.听 In the meantime, the preparations of one teacher:

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Dwyer

Hello, I鈥檓 Haydn Dwyer and I鈥檓 a teacher at Chorley Wood Primary School in Hertfordshire.听 We鈥檝e got two children with visual impairment at our school, both in the early years in key stage one.听 To prepare for these youngsters to come back to school we鈥檝e spent a lot of time in preparation to ensure that the classroom environment and the adults that will be supporting those children are as prepared as possible.听 So, we鈥檝e ensured that the children have had opportunities to visit the classroom settings without other children in them because that removes all of the visual clutter and all of the distractions for them and allows them to really familiarise themselves tactically with the environment.听 The largest challenge is educating the other children about how to navigate around them and how to interact with them.听 Typically, it鈥檚 harder for those children to recognise who they鈥檙e talking to or what鈥檚 around them, so we really just need to work with the other children for them to understand these children鈥檚 needs.

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White

That鈥檚 Haydn Dwyer of Chorley Wood Primary School.

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Wherever you are in the UK, whether involved with a special or a mainstream school, do email us, telling of your experiences of getting back to the classroom.

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You鈥檙e also welcome to go to the useful contacts page on the In Touch website.听 Organisations like Guide Dogs have a free phone advice line and an email address as part of their children and young persons鈥� services, that may be of use to you.

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And thanks, as always, for your emails to us.听 Just time for one this week.听 After hearing out item on the availability of medicines after leaving the EU Oriel Britton wrote:

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鈥淲e鈥檒l still have braille on medicine containers, which is an EU requirement, due, among other things, to the impracticality of making separate batches of drugs for the UK market without it.听 But鈥︹�� she says, 鈥溾��we also need braille to be made mandatory on food and other household packaging.鈥澨� And she goes on, to get her retaliation in first, she says:听 鈥淚 know that some people will think that I鈥檓 asking rather a lot, they鈥檒l argue that braille is rather a niche market, they鈥檒l say 鈥� can鈥檛 you scan the box or use some app or take a picture or faff about with technology in some other way?鈥澨� Well to those people Oriel says: 鈥淵ou don鈥檛 think we should have braille on the boxes?听 Fine, we鈥檒l take away your print too.鈥�

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That鈥檚 telling them.

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Now, let鈥檚 get back to going back 鈥� to work in this case.

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Dennis Deacy is partially sighted, he lives in Walthamstow in East London.听 He wanted some specific advice when it came to travelling to and from work safely on public transport and what the best products are to keep himself as safe as possible as he leaves home regularly every morning.听 Well it seemed to us this could help a lot of visually impaired people, so we brought Dennis together with Dr Lisa Ackerley, who鈥檚 been a chartered environmental health practitioner for over 30 years.听 Dennis first:

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Deacy

At the moment, I鈥檝e been working from home since March.听 The kind of work I do I鈥檝e been able to do it by computer over the internet and using telephone but obviously now they want people to come back to office.听 It would be good to get back to the office to see colleagues, it鈥檚 good to be in an office 鈥� interaction with other people face to face.听 So, obviously, looking into that I鈥檓 now concerned about how to get from home to work safely, reduce the risk of getting the virus.

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White

Because I think you鈥檙e going to have to use a local over-ground train and a bus to get to and from work.听 How are you feeling about that?

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Deacy

Yeah, two buses and an over-ground train.听 Concerned because I have on a number of occasions gone out on local buses to get the odd provision 鈥� the pharmacy or do some shopping 鈥� and I have noticed people getting on buses not wearing masks.听 I鈥檝e been wearing a mask for the last month or two every time I go out and trying to keep my distance from people as much as possible, washing my hands and using sanitiser 鈥� all the usual things.听 But I鈥檓 concerned that other people are not acting so responsibly on public transport.

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White

Okay.听 So, let me bring in Lisa Ackerley because you鈥檝e been advising, I think, other blind and partially sighted people over the last few months.听 What have they been saying to you and how similar has that been to issues that Dennis has been raising?

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Ackerley

Well very similar.听 One gentleman was telling me that he is frightened to go out, he鈥檚 being bumped into, people are not giving him some distance.

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White

And I gather that although you鈥檙e fully sighted, you鈥檙e actually avoiding public transport yourself.

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Ackerley

Personally, I am, I mean I鈥檝e always worked 鈥� well worked from home for a long while.听 I think the first fact to think about is do you actually need to go, I know it鈥檚 really nice to interact with other people but in terms of a risk assessment the first thing is 鈥� are there any factors that make you more vulnerable apart from your sight, are there any other reasons why maybe you maybe cautious about going to work.听 And that鈥檚 the first thing 鈥� do you actually need to go; do you need to go onto public transport.听 I would rather try to carry on working from home as much as possible and avoid that problem.听 But if you do want to go then we鈥檝e got to think about what can you do.

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White

So, what would be your 鈥� because it sounds as if Dennis, on the whole, would like to get back into the swim of what we might call 鈥渞eal life鈥�, what advice would you give him, bearing in mind that he said one of his main worries was how to keep safe from other people鈥檚 actions?

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Ackerley

You know if you do have a stick or a dog with you then at least people are aware that you have a need for them to be careful around you and keep out of your way.听 But I would say one of the things you need to do really is to plan what your route is and maybe talk to the people at London Transport about your route, what are the rules on these buses and trains because everything will have changed since March, so there might be different entrances and exits, there may be different rules about where you can sit and there may be people who will be able to actually assist you to get safely on to a seat on public transport 鈥� if there are seats of course, let鈥檚 hope so.

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White

Have you travelled at all yet Dennis?

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Deacy

On some occasions though luckily the buses in my area, they鈥檙e double decker and I will go upstairs and usually I find there鈥檚 less people upstairs so I can keep my distance from other passengers on the buses.听 And thankfully TFL have been running buses fairly regularly and there鈥檚 been a lot fewer passengers on board.听 And sometimes what I have done is at times I have taken cabs.

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White

And there is, of course, a fares to work scheme, which is a part of the Access to Work scheme that the Department for Work and Pensions runs, I don鈥檛 know whether you鈥檝e thought of that or whether that鈥檚 something that you would feel that you鈥檙e eligible for.

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Deacy

I have used Access to Work in the past for equipment for work but I haven鈥檛 claimed for fares to work in the past and I don鈥檛 honestly know what that actually would be just because there鈥檚 the Covid-19 situation, are they going to turn around and say 鈥� yes, now we will give you fares to work even though you鈥檝e never claimed fares to work in the past.

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White

Perhaps we鈥檒l be able to do that.听 Can I also ask you; I mean Lisa made the point about making your visual impairment known to people, which is particularly relevant for partially sighted people because it鈥檚 not so obvious, do you do that?

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Deacy

In one way it鈥檚 good to let people know by carrying a symbol 鈥� white symbol cane 鈥� but on the other hand, I feel it makes you easier to attack and to mug, so I just don鈥檛 advertise it by using a cane.

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White

This is the problem, Lisa, isn鈥檛 it, for visually impaired people that there are other considerations, so, Dennis doesn鈥檛 want to look too vulnerable.听 Can I put another one to you and that is the problem for people with no sight is everything we do we have to touch and I鈥檝e been struggling about this, knowing how you actually can sanitise yourself adequately while you鈥檙e travelling.听 The problem is if I take my face mask off the next thing I鈥檓 going to do, after I鈥檝e sanitised my hands, is put my hand on my white cane, at which point I might transfer anything from my鈥� you know, where do you stop?

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Ackerley

I think one of the things to remember is that if you鈥檙e picking the virus up on your hands it鈥檚 the transmission to your eyes, nose and the mucus membrane in your mouth that is the issue, it鈥檚 not going to go through your hands.听 So, we have to all remember to try to keep our hands out of our faces.听 Now the other thing is, if you鈥檙e taking a face covering off what you need to do is actually sanitise your hands before you do that, as well as afterwards.听 So, I would take a wipe.听 Now you can get these antimicrobial wipes which are actually quite good for surfaces but they鈥檙e also safe for hands.听 So, they tend to be called two in one or that type of thing, you could wipe your hands with that, you could take your face covering off, there may be enough juice still left in the wipe to wipe your hands again after you鈥檝e put the face covering away and then your hand is clean when you touch your cane.听 So, that鈥檚 good.听 If you鈥檝e got one of these wipes then you could wipe some of the other things that you might have been touching on your route to work, so, you鈥檙e then in a safe zone.听 So, all the things that you鈥檝e touched, like maybe your briefcase or your rucksack and your cane and your wallet, or anything else, you can just give them a quick wipe.听 And then you can feel a bit more comfortable when you get into the work zone, at your desk.

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White

Dennis, how helpful is that and is there anything else you鈥檇 like specifically to put to Lisa, while you鈥檝e got her here.

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Deacy

That鈥檚 helpful alright.听 This brings us nicely to the question of cleaning products.听 I mean obviously companies are rushing to catch up and to come up with cleaning products that are designed specifically for this virus.听 You can buy a load of products that are all antibacterial and I did pick up one hand wipe but it said 鈥� it only mentioned one specific particular virus that it would deal with, as well as dealing with antibacterial.听 So, really, it鈥檚 knowing if there are products out there that will kill this particular virus that we could use.

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White

It鈥檚 a big question Lisa but what advice would you give?

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Ackerley

It鈥檚 a really important question as well because there are all sorts of claims flying around about how things work and so on.听 Many of the products are starting to get tested against coronavirus.听 One thing to remember with coronavirus is actually in terms of its resistance to cleaning products is actually pretty wimpy, so, many of the products that would be effective against bacteria will also be effective against the virus.听 And the catching up 鈥� you can imagine there鈥檚 a bit queue in the chemistry labs to get these products through so they鈥檙e tested against virus.听 So, the numbers to look out for are EN14476, that shows that it鈥檚 had an antiviral test but many of these products will be effective, if they鈥檙e effective against flu there鈥檒l be effective against coronavirus pretty surely because it is a really fairly wimpy one in terms of being killed.

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White

Do you want to give that number one more time Lisa, just in case people didn鈥檛 鈥� couldn鈥檛 get a braille machine or a big pen or whatever?

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Ackerley

Sure, it鈥檚 EN14476.听 The major products that are on the market, the ones from the reputable companies, which obviously we鈥檙e not going to list but you can imagine who they are, those will have already been tested, maybe some of the old stock hasn鈥檛 got those numbers on it but I think if you buy a reputable companies鈥� product you should be fine.

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White

Dr Lisa Ackerley with Dennis Deacy.

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Well do let鈥檚 have your comments on anything you鈥檝e heard in the programme tonight.听 You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk or you can go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch from where you can also download tonight鈥檚 and previous editions of the programme.

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From me, Peter White, producer Mike Young and studio manager Mike Smith, goodbye.