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IN TOUCH 鈥� Touch Screen Card Machines; Your Emails

TX:听 09.11.2021听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening.听 Tonight, should we keep up with technology or should technology keep up with us?听 Tonight, we鈥檙e going to be discussing changes in the way we pay for stuff.听 With the move away from cash to cards speeding up all the time, we鈥檝e had to adjust to other methods.听 On a card machine with distinct buttons tapping in your pin number to confirm it really is your card isn鈥檛 too difficult for people with good manual dexterity.听 Some would say that the arrival of contactless cards, now covering sums up to 拢100, has actually made things easier, although not everyone is comfortable with using contactless cards.听 But just as we鈥檝e got used to these new methods more and more In Touch listeners are telling us about another development which could leave you embarrassed and without your independence once again.听 The card reader with a touchscreen.

听

Well, we鈥檝e heard from a number of people, we鈥檙e going to talk to some of them.听 Stephen Boswell from Southampton first.听 Just explain what happened to you.

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Boswell

I went into a local wine shop, when I came to pay the card was in its 鈥榩lease verify who you are鈥� mode, so I had to type in the pin number.听 But it was one of these touchscreen displays, I couldn鈥檛 see it well enough to be able to hit the right numbers.听 Fortunately, I had enough cash on me to pay for the bottle.

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White

Just to clarify, Stephen, you鈥檝e got a bit of sight, was there any way that you could have authenticated your card using that kind of screen?

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Boswell

Possibly, if I鈥檇 dug out a magnifying glass and slipped the thing under the Perspex barrier and it just wasn鈥檛 practical to do so.

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White

I think you have a smartphone, which, of course, does have a touchscreen, just explain the difference in selecting numbers on that to selecting it on a screen like the one you鈥檝e just described.

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Boswell

Well, with a touchphone, I鈥檝e got an iPhone, there鈥檚 an app called voiceover, so every time you tap an app or a number a voice feeds back to you to tell you what you鈥檝e hit.听 And then to activate what you鈥檙e touching you double tap it.

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Voiceover

Phone, double tap to activate.听 Phone, more options button.听 Zero plus one one.

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Boswell

With this touchscreen device, you really don鈥檛 want it telling everybody else what your pin number is as you tap it into the machine.听 So, voiceover is not a viable option.

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White

What are your wider concerns about this trend?

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Boswell

My biggest concern is that if that had happened in a large supermarket, where I didn鈥檛 know the assistant, where a number of people were behind me and I wanted to buy more than 拢100 worth of goods, that would have been extremely embarrassing, having to wait for the manager to come and having people look at me, possibly not being able to buy my food.

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White

Right, now we鈥檙e also joined by Andrew Hodgson.听 Andrew, you鈥檝e had a similar experience, what happened in your case?

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Hodgson

Well, actually, it was similar, it was actually when buying alcohol but this time it was a pub crawl that me and my friend were on and he was buying me a round.听 It was in a small pub, they gave him the card machine to put the pin in and we suddenly realised that it was literally a slab on the top and he couldn鈥檛 see it enough to put the pin number in.听 I鈥檝e got some residual vision, so I had a quick look at it but I could see where the pin was but didn鈥檛 want to take the pin number off him.听 So, I actually ended up buying the drinks with the payment function on my smartphone which is more contactless.听 This wasn鈥檛 a contactless card, so he literally had no way of paying, he didn鈥檛 have any cash on him or any other way to pay other than to give him pin number to someone else.

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White

So, the only advantage we can see, so far, is it鈥檚 a good way for blind people to get out of buying their own drinks.听

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Hodgson

Absolutely.听 Since that point I have been doing some more research on this and I鈥檝e seen more of these machines crop up in the local area where I live, in some cafes and wine bars and a few other places.

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White

You鈥檝e worked, I think, in the finance industry and you were working there at the time when chip and pin came in, how much were these kinds of considerations thought about by the industry then?

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Hodgson

So, it was very strict actually, we had to go really a long way to make sure that the machines were usable, there was very specific formats of the pin number pad and they had to be completely accessible by people with not just vision impairments but with other disabilities like people in wheelchairs, for the position and everything else.听 So, I was really quite shocked to find these machines had suddenly started appearing.

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White

Let me bring in one more example.听 Fiona, what was your experience?

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Fiona

I had a beauty treatment and I had a new bank card and with a lot of banks when you have a new card you have to use the card with your pin for the first payment, even if you鈥檙e then going to do what I was doing and using Apple pay after that.听 In order for that to be activated you do have to have made one payment with your pin.听 So, I had the beauty treatment, came to the counter to pay, no problem I thought and then they said 鈥� Oh, we鈥檝e got this great new machine.听 And I was like 鈥� There鈥檚 no buttons on this, how can I pay?听 And she said 鈥� Oh no, it's a touchscreen.听 And I said 鈥� Yeah, I don鈥檛 know where any of the buttons are on this.听 Luckily, the place where I鈥檇 been for the beauty treatment, they knew me and I said can I go along the road and get a coffee, because I should be able to pay there and then come back to you and pay because, of course, I wasn鈥檛 going to go away without paying, for a start, I want to go there again.听 So, the first thing I asked because I suddenly thought, ooh, well I trusted this coffee place machine is going to be fine but actually will it be, have they got a new machine recently as well.听 So, the first thing I did, before I even sat down, was say 鈥� Your card machine, does it have buttons or a touchscreen?听 I shouldn鈥檛 have to do that, that鈥檚 ridiculous.听 And I just wonder if someone had something like Parkinson鈥檚 and maybe their vision鈥檚 not great either and they鈥檙e a bit shaky or something, these touchscreens, they鈥檇 be a lot easier to press the wrong buttons I would think.听 So, I just think it鈥檚 ridiculous and it makes me angry because it just does seem like change for change鈥檚 sake sometimes 鈥� ooh, look aren鈥檛 we modern.听 And it鈥檚 like well, yeah, but that鈥檚 all very well but it鈥檚 not inclusive, so, what鈥檚 the point?

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White

And I guess, although you鈥檝e all, to some extent, seen the potentially funny side of it, what this is, is embarrassing isn鈥檛 it, when it happens to you?听 However experienced, however long you鈥檝e been dealing with being blind, it鈥檚 an embarrassing thing to happen.

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Fiona

Well, it鈥檚 discrimination.听 I don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 deliberate discrimination on the part of the companies but on the part of the people who make the card machines, what are they doing, why are they doing this?

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White

One small business which has got a flat screen card reader is Colston鈥檚 Bakery in Worcester where one of our correspondents came across it.听 Peter Clarke has been willing to come on and talk about that, he鈥檚 the director of the company.听 Peter, why did you choose a flat screen card reader?

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Clarke

We change companies who provide the services for us well reasonably regularly, every couple of years or so, to get a good deal basically.听 And it had come to that point that it was time to have a look at the market and see where you are because obviously they charge you a percentage of every transaction and an authorisation fee and it can be quite a lot different between quotes.听 So, it is always going to be an update at some point to change the machines.听 Sometimes you stay with the same company, sometimes you go to a different company, it just so happened that this time we had a very good offer given to us by the representative of the company who came round and showed us the machines, demonstrated them.听听 Pointed out all the good points of them, the fact that they鈥檙e modern, fast, efficient and very reliable, so, it was not pointed out to us at any point during that sales pitch that, oh and by the way there鈥檚 an issue with this because it never actually occurred to me that there might be.听 I thought that they were the future.听 We now need to go back to the manufacturer and find out what they plan to do about it really.

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White

Peter Clarke, Stephen, Andrew, Fiona, thank you all very much indeed.

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So, what do the people who provide these card readers have to say about it?听 Well, Tomer Sabag is Vice President of Hardware and Industrial Design at SumUp, who offer a range of card machine terminals in over 30 countries.听

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Tomer, first of all, just explain the range of card readers that you actually produce 鈥� how many using flat screens, how many with buttons.

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Sabag

We have about 30% of our card machines have a flat screen, the rest have rubber buttons.

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White

And why were the flat screen readers introduced in the first place, I mean what is their perceived advantage over the ones with buttons?

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Sabag

Because it does offer to merchants a broader range of features.听 It鈥檚 maybe not one to one comparison to the normal chip and pin device we see in the supermarket, which is purely for payments, our touchscreen devices are more of a smart POS that allows, also, the merchant to do more things before they reach the moment of the payment.

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White

And I鈥檓 interested to know how much the industry thinks about this, I mean were visually impaired people actually considered in the original design process?

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Sabag

So, we do work with 鈥� in the UK it鈥檚 RNIB, if I鈥檓 not mistaken, that we work quite closely with them because it鈥檚 also purely from a regulation standpoint we need to comply with certifications.听 There is, in our case, different solutions for this that we provided with these types of readers which is like a plastic add on to the device.听 So, when we looked at this issue, it鈥檚 not only about the pin because when it comes to really making sure the customer knows everything, including the amount, it鈥檚 not only the physical card machine, it works together with the mobile sitting on the phone.

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White

One independent businessman we talked to said nobody told me 鈥� he was quite apologetic about it 鈥� but nobody told me.听 I just wondered whether you point out to businesses when they purchase them what the possible access implications might be?

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Sabag

I think we can do better in terms of specifically mentioning how you would serve a visually impaired customer.

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White

Well, I鈥檓 also joined by Dave Williams, who is the RNIB鈥檚 customer experience manager.听 Dave, when did the RNIB become aware that this was going to be a problem?

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Williams

About three years ago, we started working with UK Finance and a number of companies who supply these touchscreen chip and pin machines to try and find ways to make them accessible.听 So, it鈥檚 got to be possible and we鈥檝e worked on a number of solutions, I think overlays have already been mentioned, perhaps using some sort of handwriting technique but obviously not everybody can do that, not everybody reads braille.听 So, we鈥檝e got a system where we use audio output from the device to emit tones when your fingers are on the keypad and you can use the cancel and ok buttons as sort of orientation, they are spoken out loud.听 So, we鈥檝e got ways to make these devices accessible, we鈥檙e very keen to work with the industry but there鈥檚 a lot of work to do, as your contributors have rightly pointed out.

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White

You say that it鈥檚 a beeping system, I mean does this give any information that might be sensitive when you鈥檙e actually using it?

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Williams

Well, so, the demonstration that I鈥檝e got is of the device will announce the amount of the transaction in the same way that a member of staff would obviously tell you what the amount is for but obviously you鈥檙e getting that confirmed by the machine.听 So, you鈥檝e got the machine telling you the amount of the transaction, then you can move your finger round the touchscreen, providing the accessibility mode is enabled, and the device will emit tones to let you know when you鈥檙e on the keypad and then if you鈥檙e to either side of the zero, then you鈥檒l get cancel and ok announced.听 And then once your transaction has completed then the device would then advise that that has happened.

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White

I mean we know you鈥檝e been working with one of the organisations PAX which is a big provider.听 Do you now think that you鈥檝e come up with a solution because I know they鈥檝e told us, themselves, and in an article, they mention that you needed about 17 tries before you actually got a system that would work which makes you think is the flatscreen ever really going to be usable in this context?

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Williams

It鈥檚 a solution, whether it鈥檚 the solution for everybody, probably not and there will be some people who鈥檇 be much happier with a chip and sign arrangement and you can request that from your bank, if you would rather sign for purchases.听 We鈥檝e also heard about people, obviously, using their smartphone or smartwatch to use Apple Pay or Android Pay.听 And, believe it or not, places will still accept a cheque and signature guides and stuff like that are available.听 So, I think we will adjust, it鈥檚 going to be difficult, I think, for those of us who are totally blind, when we first encounter these things, there is going to have to be training, obviously, with merchants and with individuals.听 We鈥檙e working on tools, so that there will be opportunities to practise because, of course, you don鈥檛 want the first time that you use this to be in the busy supermarket or in a pizza restaurant on a Saturday night.

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White

And having a solution with one company is all very well but the problem is there are lots of companies selling or renting lots of different machines so the chances continue to be high that people like Stephen, Fiona and Andrew never know when they鈥檙e going to find one that they can鈥檛 use.

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Williams

So, we鈥檝e been working with UK Finance, who represent about 300 companies in the UK.听 We鈥檝e group tested, I think, five different models of machine with accessibility features but obviously there are machines out there that are problematic and we would urge anyone who finds themselves in that situation to get the model of the machine, tell us where it was because you might have an Equality Act breach there that needs looking into and merchants do have a responsibility to make sure that they鈥檙e making reasonable adjustments to provide equal access to their products and services.

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White

We鈥檙e going to hear more about this aren鈥檛 we, Dave?听 Dave Williams and Tomer Sabag, thank you both very much indeed.

听

And now, still on inclusion, a bulging inbox prompted by a discussion a couple of weeks ago on how well a sustainable lifestyle and full inclusion for disabled people could co-exist.听 A lot of you picked up on whether measures to encourage cycling was affecting the safety of visually impaired and other pedestrians.听 This, first, from Lesley Skoyles was typical.

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Skoyles

You talked about cycle lanes and floating bus stops but where I live in Edinburgh the main problem in my experience is cyclists riding on the pavements.听 And by this I don鈥檛 just mean cutting across the pavements at a junction or, you know, occasionally veering off a cycle lane, I mean people cycling for considerable distances on the pavements of main roads, side streets and on paths in parks.听 On the occasions where I鈥檝e tried to engage with these people, to point out to them that it鈥檚 actual an offence to do this, I either get ignored, sworn at or just stared at in confusion.听 I don鈥檛 think there has actually been one single occasion that I鈥檝e left my house in the past year where I鈥檝e not encountered at least one pavement cyclist, in fact it鈥檚 often as many as six or seven.听 It鈥檚 now getting to the point where I鈥檓 very nervous about even stepping outside of my front door.

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White

And then this from Mary G.

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Mary G

Here in Stirling the council鈥檚 decided to make many pavements shared between pedestrians and cyclists.听 There鈥檚 no cycle path, just a blue circle on some lamp-posts.听 I pointed out that the blue circle, the logo of a walker and a cyclist, is of little help to the visually impaired but there was no interest in making any change.听 We now have up to five teenagers cycling in a group along the pavement after school, with nothing like a highway code to give rules that all should follow.

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White

But there is another view on the need to encourage cycling and electric cars in the interests of the planet.听 This from regular In Touch listener Alex Poppleton, not so much an email more a howl of rage.

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Poppleton

It鈥檚 such a shame that you鈥檙e criticising sustainable measures that are tackling environmental impacts which are changing the lives of everyone on the planet.听 It鈥檚 ridiculous to join the petrol lobby with predictable criticisms of electric cables and not being able to hear electric cars.听 Is it really better to be deafened with motorways full of engines using hydrocarbons, prematurely killing thousands of people?听 It just came over as whining, ill informed and Luddite.听 The comment that cyclists are prioritised over pedestrians doesn鈥檛 hold water at all, it鈥檚 just a question of helping pedestrians to get used to them and creating nationwide conventions.听 Perhaps you should be thinking about how people with sight issues are going to escape from increasingly extreme weather, rather than criticising efforts to improve cycling.

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White

And just before we go, a lovely note to end on.听 Last week we heard from musician Michael Stimpson who told us about the disease which out of the blue resulted in a four-month long coma and the loss of his sight and that resulted in his taking up composition rather than playing.听 Well, this email came from Nora Flanaghan.听 She said: 鈥淚 was so pleased to hear Michael on In Touch tonight, my friend and I cared for him while he was unconscious in 1977.听 We often speak of him with fondness and we were so pleased to hear him and hear and see what great things he鈥檚 done.鈥�

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Well, we鈥檝e put them all back in touch with each other.

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From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers Sue Stonestreet and Philip Halliwell, goodbye.