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IN TOUCH – Accessibility at Further Education Colleges; Guide Dog Retirement Age

TX:Ìý 07.12.2021Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening.Ìý Are the rules about retiring guide dogs too rigid, especially with waiting lists as long as they are?Ìý An owner puts her concerns direct to the organisation.

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Clip

It was very emphatic to say that Jack is ten and a half, he will retire.Ìý If he is withdrawn then I shall, in effect, be housebound or reliant on taxis.Ìý It’s very convoluted.

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White

But first, earlier this year we talked about some of the access problems faced by many visually impaired students at university.Ìý But now new research, commissioned by the Thomas Pocklington Trust, suggests that problems at further education colleges are just as bad, if not worse.Ìý Disability consultancy company, All Able, carried out the research and they say that many visually impaired students, attending FE colleges, are finding it hard to access disability information on their college’s website, they’re struggling to get equipment at the beginning of their courses or get exam papers in a format that they can actually read.Ìý As a result, they’re falling behind or even giving up altogether.

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George Rhodes is one of the directors at All Able and he joins us.Ìý George, first of all, tell me about your key findings.

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Rhodes

We looked at legally required information that colleges are expected to provide about their public facing websites and about important application information such as prospectuses.Ìý We note that colleges, in comparison to many other areas of the public sector, are falling significantly behind.Ìý After three years of the related regulations being in effect, we noticed that communication channels for students who reach out to colleges, who want to know about the accessibility of their front facing and internal platforms and many learning resources aren’t as robust as they should be.Ìý Around 21.4% of those colleges contacted, by a disabled student, who works with us, asking very basic questions about the accessibility of their main virtual learning environment, which would be a platform that most students would interact with on a daily basis, and 21.4% of colleges gave no response whatsoever to this prospective student, however, would respond to a similar request that made no mention of disability in the initial email.

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White

And what conclusions do you draw from that?

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Rhodes

It’s an area we need to dig into much further with the colleges.Ìý We’ve spoken to many members of staff, from different colleges, after we received these results and have found that this is a relatively known problem and some of it may be attributed to a lack of communication between front facing marketing teams and the additional learning support teams.Ìý There are a variety of factors that could be affecting why this is happening.

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White

But what you’re basically saying is students are finding it difficult to get the information they need to make the decisions about where they go, what courses they go on, how accessible they’re going to be?

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Rhodes

That’s correct, yes.

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White

Let me turn to Alex.Ìý Alex Ulise is in her final year of a sport and exercise course at Bromley College in Southeast London.Ìý Alex, you had problems when you first started your course, just explain what they were.

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Ulise

So, it’s just mainly with the technology.Ìý Basically, I started off the year with my android tablet device, which I had previously in my secondary school, that had an app called VNC.Ìý It connects to my teacher’s computer so I can see everything that’s being shown on the interactive whiteboard that all my peers can see.Ìý And that took quite a while to set up.Ìý I’m not sure why, I guess, because the college, as a mainstream, don’t really use that much technology with visually impaired.Ìý It put me quite behind in my lessons.Ìý I did have an LSA who was really good and I’ve still got her.Ìý She had to write down notes for me or literally describe to me what was on the board, as I couldn’t see it.Ìý Even if I sit like about a metre or two away, I still can’t see it.Ìý So, that was a bit of a struggle.

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White

And what about your exams, what about accessible exams?

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Ulise

So, I have two exams next month.Ìý I’m kind of afraid and nervous about them because I don’t really want last year to happen again because last year it turned out that they didn’t receive the enlarged paper that had been ordered from the college.Ìý I think there’s people, like sighted people, out there who think okay if we enlarge the paper size it’ll increase the font size, which it kind of does but for me it still looks tiny and I had to sit in that exam stressing about if I’m going to get it done and struggling to read the print because it was so tiny, it was just really straining and stuff and it made me overwhelmed.

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White

And do you know why this happened?

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Ulise

I honestly don’t know how or why they didn’t get the exam.Ìý I think it was to do with either it not arriving on time or they just got the paper or they lost it.

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White

Okay.Ìý We have, in fact, talked to Alex’s college.Ìý They told us:

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Bromley College – Statement

As part of our commitment to inclusivity we’re in the process of implementing the accessibility function into our website.Ìý We are very disappointed and surprised to hear that this visually impaired learner feels unsatisfied with the support that she received in relation to accessibility.Ìý Before she joined the college, we met with her and a specialist visual impairment advisor and she had a strong desire to join a mainstream setting rather than a specialist provision.Ìý Our team will continue to work with this student and we are very committed to dealing with any issues that may be concerning her.Ìý We are confident that she will achieve very well on her course.

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And they went on to acknowledge, Alex, that you experienced lack of access to technology when you started and you repeatedly had to battle with inaccessible learning materials throughout your course but they say, they did offer to one to one support and were advocates for your needs.Ìý Could they have done anymore?

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Ulise

I don’t think they could have done anymore, to be honest, I just think a bit more communication and even if the exams come in late, they should either inform me or my tutors, so then I could either get an extension and change the date of my exam, like do it a day later or something.

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White

George Rhodes, I mean it sounds like there are a lot of problems in addition to what the college does in these kinds of situations?

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Rhodes

There are, yes, and what we’ve just heard is very reminiscent of other stories from students that we’ve worked with where we’ve seen that one-to-one support and the support of additional learning support teams, is primarily used to paper over the cracks, as it were, for a less accessible, by design, approach from colleges.Ìý

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White

Well, listening to all of that is David Hughes.Ìý David is the Chief Director of the Association of Colleges; they represent further education colleges in the UK.Ìý David, what’s your reaction to what you’ve heard?

Hughes

Fundamentally I’m just very disappointed at how Alex has had to fight really and it shouldn’t be like that.Ìý We were really surprised by the report and very disappointed and want to see some action to put it right.Ìý And as George has said, there are some simple things colleges can do to make things better in the short term and there are some things that we just need to get in terms of the culture shift in colleges, I think.Ìý But, fundamentally, in the end, the colleges tend to do the right thing but they do it in a very clunky way sometimes, they do it with learning support staff, which is not very efficient, not as effective.

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White

I mean, does that mean it should actually be part of the training, that teachers, who, I’m quite sure, have got lots of things to deal with, but they actually get some training in their basic training about disability needs?

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Hughes

Yeah, absolutely.Ìý I mean I think there are lots of issues.Ìý Teacher training has got to have proper embedded inclusion in it and I think that’s a big issue.Ìý There’s a lot of issues around transitions for young people coming from schools and sometimes specialist schools into colleges that need to be addressed.Ìý There’s a big issue around funding support for qualified teachers of the visually impaired to advise and support colleges to get this right.Ìý One of the most shocking parts of the research, I think, was people ringing up who have a visual impairment, just not being dealt with properly and fairly and that’s just not on, is it?Ìý We’ve got to get better at it as a sector.

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White

It also seems clear that a large number of colleges are just not complying with some aspects of the accessibility laws, which George described at the beginning, surely that’s the minimum we should expect isn’t it?

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Hughes

Absolutely.Ìý We’re determined to get it right, we’ve put into our briefings, as soon as we saw this, information to college leaders.Ìý We’ve done a webinar already, we’ve got a webinar we’re planning for January with college leaders with the Thomas Pocklington Trust and George from All Able because what we’ve got to do is we’ve got to make sure the leaders understand what their legal requirements are.Ìý And even more importantly, in a sense, how they can put it right.

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White

David Hughes, Alex and George, thank you all very much indeed.

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And we stay on education and the issue of financial support.Ìý When you apply for some further or higher education courses you can also apply for a government grant, the Disabled Students Allowance, or DSA.Ìý It’s designed, primarily, for higher education, to cover any extra costs that you have, such as assistive technology.Ìý But over the years, this programme has heard many complaints about its efficiency.

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Well, now, life peer Lord Holmes, who, I’m sure, was once a visually impaired student himself, has secured a short debate on the DSA in the House of Lords for later this week.Ìý Lord Holmes, why does it need a review?

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Holmes

I think it’s time to review the whole scheme, in honesty, Peter.Ìý There are issues around the application process, the accessibility of the application process; the timeliness of that support and, indeed, as you heard from your piece there, the technology needs to be accessible.Ìý So, there’s a role for the scheme to play, the government needs to ensure that it is optimally supporting disabled students but there’s a role for the colleges and universities, there’s a role for the technology providers, web developers, for everybody.Ìý And as came out of that report, if everything is predicated inclusive by design, we do tend to solve most of the problems.Ìý But we’ve got a long way to go on that journey yet.

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White

Well, I think you want to hear from people are actually in this situation at the moment.Ìý Briefly, what do you want people to do?

Holmes

Very much so.Ìý If you’re a visually impaired or blind student, or recent student, please do be in touch – lordchrisholmes.com, same twitter handle.

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White

Chris Holmes, Lord Holmes, thank you very much indeed.Ìý And we’ll be reporting on the outcome of that debate on next week’s programme.

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Now, another perennial subject of discussion on In Touch has been the length of waiting times to have a new guide dog when your own faithful has to hang up the harness and retire.Ìý A problem which, like so many things, we’re told has been exacerbated by covid.

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But guide dog owner, Valerie Brown, contacted us not only to make that point but also, to make a suggestion about how the situation could be improved.Ìý Valerie joins us – can you just explain your current situation with your guide dog Jack?

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Brown

I’ve had Jack since 2013 and he passed 10 in October and under current guide dog policies, he will retire when he’s ten and a half.Ìý They naturally offer long cane training and long cane has never suited me, so if he is withdrawn at ten and a half, as per the current information, then I shall, in effect, be housebound or reliant on taxis.Ìý My concern is that the waiting time now is, we’re told, possibly up to two years.Ìý And I’m querying really why the retirement age has been made so rigid in view of the shortage of dogs and the effects of covid.

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White

And you’ve already started the process, I think, of trying to…

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Brown

I’ve started the process, yes.Ìý It’s very convoluted now, compared with the early days.Ìý It seems to be a five-stage process.

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White

And when you say a five-stage process, I don’t think I want you to list all five but give me an impression of what it feels like.

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Brown

Well, the only time I’ve ever physically had a form filled in with me is when I applied for my first guide dog in 1964, every other dog I’ve had the application process and behind the scenes have been done seamlessly by the local training centre.Ìý But, of course, now we have no local training centres, as such, obviously, there’s had to be a rethink for the application process.

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White

So, it’s convoluted?

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Brown

It is very, very convoluted.

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White

Okay.

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Brown

And scary.

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White

Okay.Ìý Well, let me tell you, listening to that is Pete Osborne, who is Director of Operations at Guide Dogs.Ìý Pete, can I ask you first of all about this whole business of the retirement age.Ìý Valerie says – why does it have to be so rigid?Ìý Dogs vary in their ability to how long they can go on and because there is a waiting list problem, wouldn’t it be as well to keep the ones who were able to going as long as possible?

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Osborne

Absolutely and to stress there is no retirement age for a guide dog, very much like us, as people, we can continue for as long as makes sense or as long as we’re able to and that’s the case for guide dogs, as well.Ìý We have a number of guide dogs that are working substantially longer than 10 or even ten and a half.Ìý So, if you’ve been given that impression, then that’s absolutely not the case.Ìý So, it’s very much an individual situation that we look at.Ìý So, there’s no retirement age whatsoever.

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White

But what is that thing about ten and a half, now that’s a very precise figure, I mean Valerie hasn’t imagined that…

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Brown

Oh no, no, no, no.Ìý I mean this was being given to me by the local instructors and I’ve spoken to other guide dog owners and it seems to be a general thing.

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White

Can I just say, before we bring Pete back in?Ìý We have actually heard from Chris Ferguson, who’s from the Newcastle area, his dog would have been due for retirement in September, under this rule, except that Pete says it’s not a rule, and Chris seems to confirm that.Ìý He says his dog, Quinter, still thinks and acts like a much younger dog and they still walk faster than anyone else in the town and he says his local guide dog office, in Newcastle, have allowed them to keep their successful partnership going and will review every three months.Ìý So, I mean, Pete, there seems to be confusion here about what’s going on.

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Osborne

Yeah, there should be no confusion, there is no national rule on this particular issue, there is no rule on this issue.Ìý What we do do is make sure that we talk to guide dog owners about the situation that they’re in themselves, on a regular basic, usually every three to six months.Ìý We also ask guide dog owners to take their dogs to the vets more regularly because as dogs get older, they slow down, it could be that they’re not as willing or as happy to work going forward.

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White

So, perhaps Valerie, you should talk to whoever’s…

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Brown

I will, because it was very, very emphatic from the local area to say that Jack is ten and a half in April, he will retire and they’ve even started talking about his future.

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White

What, you mean rehoming?

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Brown

Yeah.

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White

Just avoid that, just for a moment, because I think the other point that Valerie has been making is it’s now very rigid, very bureaucratic, she feels, that in the past you were known – I think that was Valerie’s real point – they knew who you were, they knew what your capabilities were, now it seems it’s one form after another.

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Brown

You’re a number.

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Osborne

What we’re trying to do through this process is make sure that we gather as much information about how people’s circumstances may have changed.Ìý So, if I take myself as an example, I may have moved house, which I have, I may have changed job, which I have, during the time at which I’ve been working with my guide dog Niall.Ìý So, these things change for us all of the time and that’s the case for everybody.Ìý However, I think what we have done more recently is brought in a process where we’ve had a range of conversations with people, and I do think this has got probably too complex for returning guide dog applicants, people who’ve actually had previous dogs, and we are looking to simplify that, you’ll be relieved to know, in the new year, we’re going to move to a much simpler process whereby we move to a mobility and a guide dog assessment, so that we can actually process those applications much more rapidly.

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White

And can I just ask you, how long is the waiting list at the moment?

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Osborne

We have a waiting list of about 18 months on average, averages are very dangerous things because some people receive a dog far faster than that and for some people that will take longer, depending on their situation and the type of dog that they need in the circumstance that they’re working in.Ìý But we’re aiming to reduce that as fast as we possibly can.Ìý We are increasing the number of dogs that we have in training.Ìý We have more than 900 puppies now with our wonderful volunteers and if anybody is really keen to take on that really exciting role, we’re desperate for more puppy raisers, so please let us know.Ìý So, we’re looking to increase the number of dogs in training as we go forward, so that we can move towards that target of creating at least one thousand partnership a year.

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White

But 18 months is a very long time to have to wait, especially if you’re worried that your dog will be retired, I mean can you give an assurance that somebody won’t be left without a dog if their dog is still fit, happy and willing to do the job?

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Osborne

What I can say is if your dog is able to work and happy to work and the situation is working for you, then your dog can continue to work.

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White

Valerie.

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Brown

That is really reassuring Peter.Ìý And I wish it could be communicated locally.

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Osborne

It is a major challenge for people, I know and we need to approach each situation on its own merit.Ìý But what’s really important is it’s the right retirement age for the partnership and that’s something we should be discussing with everybody as individual cases.

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White

Pete Osborne of Guide Dogs, Valerie Brown, thank you both very much indeed.

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And that’s it for today.Ìý As always, we welcome your comments on anything you’ve heard in the programme.Ìý You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, leave a voicemail on 0161 8361338.Ìý From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers Owain Williams and Phillip Halliwell, goodbye.

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