大象传媒

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IN TOUCH 鈥� Representation in Casualty; Should People Explain What They Look Like?

TX:听 15.02.2022听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 FERN LULHAM

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White

Good evening. 听Tonight, what鈥檚 getting in the way of blind dates?

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Because it was such an awful experience it really has put me off trying to use those online dating services.听 It鈥檚 too much like hard work.

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White

We look at how dating platforms could and should do better.听 Also, the dos and don鈥檛s of describing things to us, what to include and what to leave out.

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Clip

Let鈥檚 be real.听 Knowing that someone鈥檚 wearing a green shirt doesn鈥檛 tell me much.听 Most people seem to reduce themselves to clothes or gender and skin colour.

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White

But first, let鈥檚 introduce this evening鈥檚 guest with a bit of a fanfare鈥�

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Music 鈥� Casualty

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Surely, one of the best-known television signature tunes for one of the longest running medical drama series worldwide.听

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Now, if you were watching Casualty the other night, you鈥檒l have noticed that one of the storylines had a visually impaired patient at its heart.听 Nothing too unusual about that, you鈥檇 probably expect to find disability featuring quite often in a hospital drama.听 What is still much less common is that the visually impaired woman was played by 鈥� wait for 鈥� a visually impaired woman.听 Georgie Morrell is stand-up artist, as well as a writer and actor and she played the part of Julia, who was pleasantly enough surprised to get the part that she went into print to congratulate the programme makers.听 Here she is in action:

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Clip 鈥� Casualty

You鈥檝e been in to see us a few times recently.

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Inanimate objects are not her friends.听 Especially my girlfriend鈥檚 shoes when left in the middle of the floor.

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Look if you鈥檙e having problems with balance, coordination then we can run some tests.

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To find out I鈥檓 blind?听 Come on Luna, let鈥檚 leave these good people to it.听 Forward.

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White

Well, that鈥檚 the Georgie Morrell and Georgie is today鈥檚 guest on the programme.

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Isn鈥檛 a bit sad, though, Georgie, that you felt you had to comment on it.听 I mean do you think this is still happening a lot?

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Morrell

I wanted to give credit where credit was due because we鈥檙e not really doing a lot of portrayal of disabled characters and their stories on TV and film and to have it on something like Casualty which has been, as you say, going forever and a day, watched by so many people, so many awards, is a really good start but there鈥檚 a long way to go.

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White

And I mean I think you were struck by this when you were growing up, the fact that it didn鈥檛 happen, you didn鈥檛 see yourself represented?

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Morrell

I just thought there wasn鈥檛 a place for me because I didn鈥檛 grow up with many role models, didn鈥檛 have a visually impaired stand-up comedian to look up to, let alone an actor as well.听

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White

But it is this issue, as far as you鈥檙e concerned, of visually impaired people not being played by visually impaired actors because, of course, the argument is that there are quite a lot of them around now.

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Morrell

There鈥檚 been an argument, for a while, about whether disabled actors should play disabled characters and not and, of course, we鈥檝e got a bit of a history, particularly in film, of actors playing disabled characters and it鈥檚 been given the term cripping up, which I don鈥檛 think actually is all that helpful to be honest.听 The difference between now and then is we now have a lot of disabled actors who have broken into the industry ready and waiting to work.听 I鈥檓 sat right here and I鈥檝e got heating bills to be paid.听 There is, of course, the argument that acting is acting鈥�

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White

I was about to put that argument to you.

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Morrell

鈥�which 鈥� which I鈥檓 totally for, as well, you know you play a character, you play somebody different from yourself.听 However, I would say, as well, if you鈥檝e got a disabled actor and disabled part, the advantage you鈥檝e got is that that disabled actor might just be able to bring a little bit more something to that part because they鈥檝e got all the experience and maybe the physical necessities required.听 And then the next step from that is having disabled characters in as many stories, who aren鈥檛 totally defined by their disability, that鈥檚 sort of where we want to get to.听 I do have the advantage I can play a visually impaired and not visually impaired and I鈥檇 like to be able to do both really.

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White

But just to play devil鈥檚 advocate for a minute鈥�

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Morrell

Go for it.

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White

鈥� if we argue sighted people shouldn鈥檛 play visually impaired characters, aren鈥檛 they entitled to argue that visually impaired people can鈥檛 or shouldn鈥檛 play sighted roles?

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Morrell

Ah, you couldn鈥檛 help yourself, could you Peter?

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White

No, I couldn鈥檛.

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Morrell

It鈥檚 a worthy argument to have.听 Sure.听 At the end of the day, when you鈥檙e casting, you鈥檙e casting who鈥檚 right for the role.听 What we want, as disabled actors, is equality of opportunity.听 Unfortunately, there have been too many times when non-disabled actors have played disabled characters and the disabled actors weren鈥檛 even considered, that鈥檚 where we get a 鈥� I certainly do, get a little bit huffy.听 Was I considered or wasn鈥檛 I?

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White

Okay, well we鈥檝e given that argument a bit of a run out and I鈥檓 sure people will have comments to make.听 Just one more thing, before we move on, how plentiful is work for you at the moment?听 I mean you joked about paying the heating bills and it is no joke because you鈥檙e doing a lot of different things.

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Morrell

You鈥檝e got to, to be honest, to keep going in this industry, it鈥檚 hugely competitive.听 Also, I 鈥� I enjoy all the different aspects I do, I write, I do stand-up and I act.听 So, to be able to do all those things is great and the one I love the most is normally the one that鈥檚 paying the most that week.听 My diary鈥檚 pretty free this year, so鈥�

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White

Okay, hint鈥�

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Morrell

鈥�if the casting departments are listening.

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White

Look, do stay with us to talk some more, including your reactions to this next item.听

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Now you probably couldn鈥檛 escape noticing that yesterday was Valentine鈥檚 Day but if you didn鈥檛 have anybody to share it with, how much did that have to do with the difficulty of using dating websites or apps.听 Online dating is an issue which today鈥檚 producer, Fern Lulham, has addressed before on the programme but she decided it was time to get an update 鈥� see what I did there?听 So, Fern, when it comes to accessibility of dating platforms, what did you find?

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Lulham

Well, Peter, in terms of studies and research surprisingly little, especially considering there is lots of anecdotal evidence from blind people that they find dating apps and sites pretty inaccessible and finding a partner is something that, of course, very many of us regard as pretty important.听 A report titled The Future of Dating found that around a third of relationships which began between 2015 and 2019 started online and by 2035 it says the UK will have reached the tipping point with more than 50% of relationships beginning online.听 But despite all of that, online dating accessibility just doesn鈥檛 seem to be something that independent researchers or indeed blind charities have seriously looked into.

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White

Okay, let鈥檚 stay with the anecdotal evidence for now then.听 I mean, what does that suggest, what have people been telling you?

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Lulham

Well, as with many areas of accessibility, it seems there鈥檚 lots to be done.听 Blind users complain that apps, in particular, can be incompatible with screen readers and that many of the command buttons are not labelled, which, of course, prevents us from being able to navigate around the platform.

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White

So, what鈥檚 the net result of that, as far as someone who鈥檚 blind and looking for love, or at least someone to have a nice time with?

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Lulham

Yeah, well that is, of course, the bottom line.听 So, I spoke to Michelle Barnes-Moss, who鈥檚 blind and here鈥檚 what she told me about her experience.

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Barnes-Moss

To be honest, I was very disappointed.听 I thought the accessibility would be quite amazing but sadly, it鈥檚 not.听 eHarmony, I found, was the worst.听 There were so many questions to do on the form, it felt like a 6,000-word essay but generally, on the whole, I found that they weren鈥檛 very good at all for accessibility.听 My eReader and that misses parts, it doesn鈥檛 read it all properly.听

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Lulham

And did a lack of accessibility just lead you to give up on certain sites?

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Barnes-Moss

To be honest, I鈥檝e given up completely, yes, definitely.听 This is going to sound really awful but it鈥檚 too much like hard work.听 Because it was such an awful experience, I鈥檝e decided it鈥檚 really not for me, I wouldn鈥檛 like to do online dating.

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Lulham

Is that inaccessibility terms or is that just in sort of talking to people terms?

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Barnes-Moss

Oh, no, no, no sorry, I can talk the hind legs of a donkey, no accessibility terms.听 The lack of accessibility really is quite off-putting.

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Lulham

And what improvements do you think could be made to online dating sites or apps to make them more accessible to blind and visually impaired people?

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Barnes-Moss

With the photographs, if you could get a clear description, that would be helpful.听 I can鈥檛 differentiate between dark colours, especially if someone鈥檚 got dark hair, they kind of tend to merge into the background.听 So, if there could be something to say 鈥� right, the background is, prime example, purple it would really help.

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Lulham

How does that make you feel when you just can鈥檛 use an app like that?

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Barnes-Moss

Incredibly frustrating, almost, I鈥檇 say, stupid as well and kind of not worthy because it鈥檚 supposed to be a simple thing that you do and you鈥檙e unable to do it.

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White

Well, we put Michelle鈥檚 concerns to eHarmony, they told us, in a statement: 鈥淲e鈥檙e committed to making our site an equal experience for all members and have a dedicated accessibility statement.听 For our blind and partially sighted members, we enable screen reader support that renders text and image content as speech or braille output.听 This ensures there鈥檚 no interruption to the service.鈥�

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So, Fern, they obviously feel that they鈥檝e done everything they can.听 Any luck contacting anyone else in the industry?

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Lulham

Peter, I have contacted 10 companies to ask for their comments on accessibility.听 Six were leading mainstream ones, whilst the other four were specialist platforms for visually impaired or other disabled people.听 Now, interestingly, I got just one response, which was from a specialist provider and they said, and I quote: 鈥淲e are currently not looking for such opportunities but if that changes in the future, we will let you know.鈥澨� How kind. [Laughing]

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White

Yeah, well perhaps that tells its own story doesn鈥檛 it.听 So, did you find any cause for optimism at all?

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Lulham

Surprisingly, Peter, I did.听 Of the very limited advice that I managed to find for blind online daters an eBook produced by the Henshaws Charity does review the accessibility of leading mainstream and specialist sites and apps.听 It highlights those that are most accessible to blind users, for example, because of compatibility with screen readers and labelled buttons.

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White

Okay, so, how would you sum up your findings?

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Lulham

Perhaps the most surprising thing that I鈥檝e found is what a low profile the accessibility of online dating has.听 So, whilst there鈥檚 plenty of advice on things like safety on a date, accessibility seems to have flown largely under the radar.听 I would urge people who want a relationship to give online dating a try though and, importantly, if you find that accessibility is a problem complain because these issues really do need to be highlighted.听 Equally, I鈥檇 urge the online dating providers to reach out, I think there are plenty of us that are very willing to spend our money with online dating companies, so, this is something we need to work together on.听 And to end on a positive, Peter, I鈥檓 living proof that online dating can work for blind people because that鈥檚 how I met my partner and I鈥檇 highly recommend it, although whether he鈥檇 say the same is a completely different matter, which sadly, I just don鈥檛 think we鈥檝e got time to discuss Peter.

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White

Oh, I don鈥檛 know, I think we might be able to fit it in.

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Actor Georgie Morrell is still with us.听 Georgie, do you now or have you ever, as I think it was the American intelligence agency, the way they put the question 鈥� do you ever use dating websites?

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Morrell

I don鈥檛, no, I am in a long-term relationship so if I was he might have a few questions when he hears this.

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White

Well, alright, did you before?

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Morrell

Do you know what before I was with my partner, I was single for a good few years and I sort of wanted to be single but I sort of did once, as an experiment, just out of curiosity because all my mates were doing it, you hear all the stories that are coming back 鈥� successful ones, quite frankly frightening ones and all sorts in between.听 There was a guy who got in touch who worked in finance and he was so rude it just put me off the whole thing.听 He did the thing, saw I was an actor and comedian and immediately was like 鈥� oh tell us a joke 鈥� I was like 鈥� Oh, do my accounts?听 It鈥檚 my job dude.听 And I never went back.

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White

I mean you have had a very fluctuating issue really with your sight and I just wondered how much was dating a problem as your visual situation varied so much?

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Morrell

When I was in my early 20s I admit I probably would have hidden it, my disability and my visual impairment for a certain amount of time until you can鈥檛.听 But now if I was single and dating, you know, I鈥檇 be loud and proud about it because it鈥檚 a huge part of my life and I鈥檝e got no reason to hide it or be ashamed.听 Using the apps and stuff, I mean I struggle a bit with Twitter, to be honest, so 鈥� it鈥檚 supposed to be fun, dating, it鈥檚 supposed to be fun.

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White

A little variation from this because it鈥檚 not often these days that an issue comes up on In Touch which we鈥檝e never dealt with before but I can honestly say that I don鈥檛 remember this particular point made by Christina Hartman, who鈥檚 from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, her Twitter post is read here by a 大象传媒 colleague.

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Twitter post [read]

As a deafblind person I feel torn about the trend of people describing their physical appearance during meetings for the benefit of those who are blind or who have low vision.听 I appreciate the effort to make things more accessible and inclusive, truly, deeply but the experience is awkward and less than illuminating for me, an actual blind person.听 Let鈥檚 be real, knowing that someone鈥檚 wearing a green shirt doesn鈥檛 tell me much.听 Most people seem to reduce themselves to clothes or gender and skin colour.听 Now there are also sensitive issues such as race and ethnicity that might arise 鈥� I鈥檓 a Latino so I鈥檓 sympathetic to that.听 The experience also makes me, and I suspect others, hyperaware of my difference.听 I can also feel the cogs in people鈥檚 minds as they talk to me, thinking about how I don鈥檛 see them.听 But here鈥檚 the thing, I鈥檓 now a more tactile olfactory auditory visually impaired person, I can tell a lot about you by how you move your hands and your body.听 Now this is a legitimate way of perceiving people and I鈥檓 uneasy with the assumption that visual details are better.听 Also, I鈥檝e never been asked if I want this, even if I鈥檓 the only blind person in the room, that doesn鈥檛 smell right to me.听 This is only opinion and I want to open this topic up to polite and respectful discussion.听 How can we address these issues?

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White

Well, by discussing them on In Touch, I guess, Christina.听 Christina was very happy for us to do that.

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So, what do we make of that view?听 Georgie, you do have, now, some useful sight again, what鈥檚 your take on this?

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Morrell

I did do a workshop a little while ago and that was something that was used, we had a few visually impaired people in.听 And it didn鈥檛 really bother us but we had a bit of fun with it, I think, and I found something interesting in how people perceive themselves as to what you sort of take from them, I think that can tell you a lot about a person.

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White

What about you Fern?听 I鈥檓 just wondering if it鈥檚 something that would be of value to you at all?

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Lulham

I think it鈥檚 a really difficult one.听 So, I was thinking about this, I was thinking 鈥� I wonder if there鈥檚 anything that I鈥檝e experience.听 And I know when people introduce themselves and they say who they are, I used to find that very awkward and like Christina was describing 鈥� oh, it鈥檚 making me feel so disabled.听 But now, sometimes when people come up to me, as I鈥檓 losing more and more sight, I just think 鈥� I wish they鈥檇 tell me who they are because I don鈥檛 know and I鈥檓 trying to feverishly figure it out.听 But I think the real answer is just ask us, don鈥檛 assume, just ask.

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White

I mean one of the things I wanted to raise here and listeners might give us some ideas about how they feel about these things is other things that you don鈥檛 necessarily want described because some people do think that you really need everything described to you.听 My pet hate is going to people鈥檚 houses and you鈥檝e only gone for dinner but they think, as a blind person, you鈥檒l need a guided tour and you have to go all through every room and this is our airing cupboard 鈥� I don鈥檛 think I鈥檓 going to need the airing cupboard, I鈥檝e only come for the evening.听 That is one thing, I must say.

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Lulham

But, again, some people would love the tour, so that鈥檚 what I鈥檓 saying 鈥� you need to ask people what they鈥檙e in the market for, Peter, not so much.

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White

No.

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Morrell

Horses for courses isn鈥檛 it really?

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White

I think there鈥檚 one most important route when you go to somebody鈥檚 house and that鈥檚 where鈥檚 the bathroom, basically.听 Once I know that I鈥檓 quite happy.

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Lulham

Priorities.

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White

Yeah, priorities.听 Well, we鈥檝e opened it up, let鈥檚 see what people think about that.听

听

Georgie, just one final thing, bringing you back to your own career, as if all your other activities weren鈥檛 enough, I gather you鈥檙e co-writing a film script?

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Morrell

I鈥檓 writing on two projects, one is a film script with Silver Salt and that鈥檚 coming along quite nicely and the same company have optioned a pilot I wrote which is based on my first show 鈥� A Poke in the Eye.

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White

So, we鈥檒l soon be able to say 鈥� writer, actor, comedian and also filmscript writer?

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Morrell

Oh, I hope so, that 鈥� yeah, I like that scriptwriter, that sounds cool.

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White

Well, that鈥檚 it for today.听 If you have views on dating and dating platforms, what people should bother to describe to you and what you鈥檇 rather they left out or who has the right to act which parts, you can email intouch@bbc.co.uk.听 You can leave a voice message on 0161 8361338 or you can go to our website for more information bbc.co.uk/intouch.听 And, by the way, we鈥檙e also planning a programme on tracing your ancestry, maybe because you want to discover the origins of your visual impairment or maybe just because you want to know more about your family history.听 How accessible are those websites?听

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Many thanks to Georgie Morrell for being our guest today, thanks Georgie.听 And from me, Peter White, producer and part-time dating correspondent Fern Lulham and studio managers Tom Parnell and Sue Stonestreet, goodbye.