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IN TOUCH 鈥� Guide Dog Refusals at Indoor Establishments; NaviLens

In Touch

TX:听 03.05.2022听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 FERN LULHAM

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White

Good evening.听 Tonight, some problems just don鈥檛 go away, do they?听 We look tonight at the latest attempts to stop guide dogs being refused entry to places to which they have a perfect legal right to go.听 And the app that can do something even the brightest guide dog can鈥檛 鈥� read a railway indicator board.

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NaviLens

Welcome to Euston Station entrance.听 Straight for Euston Station, left for London Underground.听 Taxis at Euston Square.听 Right for bus terminal.听 Next departures, six minutes.

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White

Clever, eh?听 But first, one of the commonest complaints which come into our inbox are about the illegal exclusion of guide dogs from taxis, pubs, restaurants, shops.听 But having the law on your side is one thing, making it stick quite another.听 Well, we don鈥檛 all have the hutzpah of student, Charles Block, when a taxi driver refused to take him with his dog.

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Actuality

Yeah, I don鈥檛 take your dog.

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By law you can鈥檛 deny us.

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Are you going to send another car?

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Yeah okay, maybe.

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No, no I don鈥檛 want another car, I want this car.

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Yeah, cancel it.

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No.

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Yeah okay.

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If you drive away, I鈥檒l sue you.

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Yeah, I鈥檓 ready [indistinct words]鈥�

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Oh, go on then, good luck.

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White

Well Charles carried his threat to sue and he won.听 And in the case of taxis, you should get the backing of the local authority which licences taxis.听 But, as MP Alex Chalk discovered when a constituent of his came to him after being excluded from a restaurant, things are far less clearcut when it comes to exclusion from premises.

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Chalk

Under Section 168 of the Equality Act, if you are unlawfully refused access to a taxi, well that鈥檚 a matter that is punishable by a fine of up to 拢1,000 and the police can get involved.听 But if you鈥檙e refused access to a bricks and mortar premises 鈥� a caf茅 or a restaurant 鈥� your options are really this:听 one, do nothing; two, you could go and unleashed the gates of hell, as it were, on social media and see what happens and lose all control of the situation but your other only option is to go and seek a civil remedy, which in plain English means going through the whole hassle and inconvenience and strain of launching your own civil proceedings down at Gloucester County Court or whatever, at cost to you personally and potentially to get a civil remedy of a fine.听 Now that鈥檚 not a very appealing option for individuals and I don鈥檛 think they should have to bear that entire burden and it seemed inconsistent and wrong to me.

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White

Well back then, in 2018, Alex Chalk seemed hopeful that we would get a change to the Equality Act to, at least, bring the legal process for challenging access refusals in line with that of taxis.听 That hasn鈥檛 happened.听 So, guide dog owners, like Barry Ginley, who choose to take their cases to court, have to do so using their own time and their own money.听

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Well, today鈥檚 producer Fern Lulham arranged to go for a stroll with Barry, courtesy of both of their guide dogs.听 Here鈥檚 what he told her:

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Ginley

August of 2021, a friend and I decided to go into a pub for lunch in Victoria, in London.听 On entry the bar supervisor said couldn鈥檛 come in to the bar because we didn鈥檛 allow dogs.听 I explained that she was a guide dog and she鈥檚 covered by the Equality Act 2010.听 But they still refused and said there鈥檚 no such law, it鈥檚 their company policy not to allow any animals in.听 Then eventually one of their staff got quite aggressive with my friend for filming, tried to take the phone off of him and at that point I decided that I needed to call the police because of the assault and also the refusal.听

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Lulham

How does it make you feel when you get refused, when things like this happen to you, Barry?

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Ginley

It鈥檚 frustrating because I just want to live my life just like anybody else would and I hate being treated like a second-class citizen all the time, not worthy of going into any environment.

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Lulham

Do you see any signs of improvement when it comes to this issue at all?

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Ginley

Not at the moment because I see more and more on social media of people being refused into pubs or shops.

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Lulham

So, you鈥檙e taking your case to court now.听 For most people I would say that鈥檚 probably a last resort.听 Did you try other methods of approaching the pub?

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Ginley

We wrote to them, they came back, didn鈥檛 answer any of the questions, then offered us two free dinners.听 I don鈥檛 intend to set foot back in that place again.听 And my solicitors have written to them on several occasions to try and resolve this issue, without it going to court and the business has refused to correspond.听 And to date, they鈥檝e still not responded to the courts.

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Lulham

Are you surprised that more people don鈥檛 take these kind of cases to court?

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Ginley

Unfortunately, I鈥檓 not surprised.听 It鈥檚 knowing where to go to get that advice.听 So, my first port of call was to Guide Dogs and all they could do for me was give me a number to phone the RNIB.听 Often people don鈥檛 want and have the time to pursue such claims.听 I鈥檇 rather not have to do it but how many times, as a guide dog owner or assistance dog owner, do we have to go to venues to be told 鈥� sorry, you can鈥檛 come in here?听 I thought my first case back in 1998 would have changed attitudes but unfortunately, 24 years later, it doesn鈥檛 seem to have made any lasting improvements.

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Lulham

What changes would you like to see made in order to start tackling this problem?

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Ginley

I鈥檇 actually like to see the Equality Act strengthened.听 So, therefore, it鈥檚 not just a reasonable adjustment, it鈥檚 a firm civil right to take the assistance dog in.听 So, it鈥檚 very clear that the dogs can鈥檛 be refused.听 Often businesses don鈥檛 know how to assist disabled people, what adjustments they need to put in place, so having that equality awareness training is important.听 I often thing, you know, when is this going to improve?

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White

Barry Ginley.

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So, what is the way forward?听 Well, joining me and listening to that is Clive Wood, who鈥檚 the lead regional policy and campaigns manager for the charity Guide Dogs.听 Clive, Barry is very clear that things aren鈥檛 improving on refusals and indeed, your own website tells us that 75% of service dog owners have experienced at least one refusal.听 So, what do you say needs to change to solve this problem?

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Wood

Thank you.听 No, it is an issue and I think it鈥檚 quite clear, from what we鈥檝e heard today, that there鈥檚 still a problem and it鈥檚 been there for a long time.听 And we do need to see change from different aspects really.听 First of all, government needs to take more 鈥� a more robust approach, looking at the Equality Act to make it a more straightforward process.听 But also, there needs to be more action taken by businesses.听 And we鈥檙e hearing from a lot of guide dog owners around 鈥� we鈥檙e not talking about small businesses here, we鈥檙e talking about big corporate organisations who should be delivering disability equality training, including awareness around the law.听 This is where we think there is a big issue where staff just aren鈥檛 aware, frontline staff, aren鈥檛 aware of what the law says and that鈥檚 where things need to change.

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White

Talking about the government, themselves, we did approach the government for an interview, with the minister for disabled people, we were told that she wasn鈥檛 available.听 Their statement said: 鈥淯nder the Equality Act 2010 it鈥檚 unlawful to refuse access to a disabled person with a guide or assistance dog other than in very exceptional circumstances.鈥澨� They say: 鈥淲e expect organisations to ensure their staff are aware of the law and that disabled people are treated with respect and dignity.鈥�

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No suggestion there about strengthening the law.听 So, I mean, what can you, as an organisation, do to move this forward?

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Wood

Yeah, I mean the latest figures were from 2019, before the pandemic, and we have been lobbying government, MPs, we鈥檝e had parliamentary events to raise this issue and the government keeps saying that they鈥檙e going to be looking at it but it鈥檚 not happening and it does need to happen.

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White

Could you not be doing more?听 I mean, for instance, we heard there, Barry said when he brought his latest experience of refusals to Guide Dogs, he was given the number for the RNIB.听 Shouldn鈥檛 you be bringing these cases yourselves, because that鈥檚 the way it would get real publicity?

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Wood

Yes, we can put our hands up and say we should be doing more and we鈥檙e recognising that and we鈥檙e introducing more action this year.听 For example, we鈥檝e set up workshops for guide dog owners called Access with Confidence, to make them aware of what the law says and what action they can take when they are refused and after a refusal.听 But we also need to recognise that we need to be giving more support to guide dog owners in situations like this.听 And we want to hear from more guide dog owners because actually we know that the numbers are higher and we want to take more action.

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White

Well, we鈥檇 like to hear from them too.听 Clive Wood, thank you very much indeed.

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And still on the issue of getting around.听 It does seem that if you want tangible improvements you probably have to turn to technology to get them.听 The best of guide dogs aren鈥檛 going to be able to read a station arrivals and departures board to you but here鈥檚 news of a bit of a kit that might be able to do the job.听 The app provider NaviLens has conducted a trial of this piece of equipment at Euston Station.听 Mark Powell, from the RNIB, took part in the trial.听 Here he is demonstrating some of its features.

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Powell

So, I鈥檝e opened NaviLens, I鈥檓 outside the station.听 Let鈥檚 go have a look.听

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NaviLens

Six metres away, welcome to Euston Station entrance.听 Straight for Euston Station.听 Left for London Underground.听 Taxis at Euston Square.听 Right for bus terminal.听 Next departures six minutes.听 West Midlands train鈥�

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Powell

So, I鈥檓 getting all the departures too.听 Right, let鈥檚 carry on walking.

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NaviLens

鈥�six metres away.听 Concourse.听 Continue for platforms four to seven.听 Right for platforms three to one.听 Toilets and changing places.

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Powell

So, the really cool thing is I can select where I want to go as well.听 So, I could go鈥�

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NaviLens

Food, drinks and shops button.听 Deli de France, Upper Crust, button.

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Powell

Let鈥檚 go to Upper Crust.

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NaviLens

Monday to Sunday, go to the Upper Crust button.

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Powell

Go to Upper Crust.

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NaviLens

Set your journey, yes, button.听 Scanning text started.听 Left, left arrow, left, left arrow.

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Powell

So, the app is now telling me, in real time, using augmented reality鈥�

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NaviLens

Left, left arrow.

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Powell

Left, go find.听 And here we are.听 We鈥檝e arrived.听 How amazing is that?

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NaviLens

Arrived, arrived.

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White

I鈥檓 not sure which was more important, getting the right train or finding his lunch but Mark joins me now.听 That all sounded very impressive but how does it actually work, especially in the precision that you need to get the information you鈥檙e after?

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Powell

Yeah, it certainly is a piece of cool technology and I can tell you now I was definitely looking for my lunch.听 But yeah, effectively what NaviLens is, is essentially the next generation of QR code that can be detected from a distance.听 So, whatever your camera can see you will get relayed.听 So, dependent on which direction you鈥檙e pointing your phone, you鈥檒l get that information.听 So, you get a real understanding 鈥� a real understanding of the space without really being bombarded with information because we don鈥檛 want to be told everything at once, but if we鈥檙e pointing at the general direction, using the piece of tech in the middle, which, in this case, is the iPhone, then we will get all the information relayed to us in a format that鈥檚 necessary for us, so it could be zoom, it could be voiceover, it could be anything.

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White

But I guess I鈥檓 still trying to figure out how it can sort out the amount of information there is.听 I mean how difficult is it to get your smartphone into the right position to get that information?

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Powell

Oh absolutely, I mean a station, in its very nature, you know, there鈥檚 lots of going on 鈥� there鈥檚 the signage, there鈥檚 the dynamic signage which is the signage which changes all the time like the train boards, but there鈥檚 also different points of interest, like Upper Crust, like you heard in the video.听 So, the thing is, the way this works is the codes are in the environment and the codes are set inside it, the codes can only be read at a certain distance.听 So, when you鈥檙e in a, I鈥檇 say, five, six, seven metres away from Upper Crust, that鈥檚 when you鈥檙e going to know it鈥檚 there.听 But you can control what information you鈥檙e told and you鈥檝e got ways in which you can personalise that information using the app and that鈥檚 the beauty.听 What we all ultimately aim for is a service that鈥檚 personalised to us, that we can control, not the technology controlling us.

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White

And is that the main difference with this because it鈥檚 not the only navigation app around, there have been apps that read barcodes, for instance, for some time and, of course, people do navigate using their smartphone.听 So, is that the key thing that it does 鈥� the information is kind of filtered to you at the right time?

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Powell

Yeah, that鈥檚 right.听 I mean, so, you鈥檙e right, there鈥檚 lots of different technologies out there but what these codes are, are triggers that can be detected from a distance, up to 鈥� you know there鈥檚 codes in that video that I鈥檓 detecting from about 30 metres away, which are around an A4 size code, so that鈥檚 鈥� it鈥檚 not massive.听 They can do so much more; they can provide information even based on which direction you鈥檝e come from.听 So, some technologies out there, they tend to give you all the information at once but you鈥檝e come from a certain direction and you don鈥檛 know whether left or right is left or right from your perspective or left or right from a few metres ahead, so these codes are really intelligent at the same time.

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White

I鈥檓 told that other countries, such as Spain and the USA, already have NaviLens codes in some of their major transport hubs.听 How long before we see a significant presence in the UK rather than just an experimental one?

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Powell

That鈥檚 a really good question and I did have the pleasure of, a couple of years ago now, of getting out to Spain and experiencing this for myself.听 And the strangest thing is, as somebody who鈥檚 registered blind themselves, the idea of going to a station in another country with a visual impairment and doing that all by myself, the thought, I just couldn鈥檛 comprehend, it鈥檚 scary, it would make me feel anxious.听 But I had this app on my phone, all of the codes in that station were in Spanish, the app translated it all to me in English and I navigated around the station and I鈥檇 never been there before.听 And I actually took my sighted colleague, who was with me, around the station himself, which was, again, a very strange scenario to be in.听 But this is the first implementation here in the UK within a station, we鈥檝e actually done this already on food packaging, so we鈥檝e took food packaging accessibility to the next level and be detected from three metres away.听 So, this kind of technology, it鈥檚 agile, it can be put in different environments, in different products, in different scenarios.

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White

But, of course, it鈥檚 not just the equipment, is it, it鈥檚 the purveyor, so the station鈥檚 got to agree to it, shops have got to agree to it, all those people have got to have it installed?

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Powell

Absolutely, yeah, that is key here.听 I think what we鈥檝e done here in the UK, at Euston, and certainly what we did on packaging, it鈥檚 getting a lot of attention.听 For people, like myself, we鈥檝e never actually experienced this before, so, blind people taking part in this is really key.听 But these solutions, in their very nature, they鈥檙e better for everyone.听 You know, you have somebody coming into the UK for the first time, navigating around Euston, you know these codes are a mainstream solution for everyone that just happens to help us, so including blind and partially sighted people and the general public in these trials, again, is key.听 So, we鈥檙e taking it slow but there鈥檚 been a lot of interest in what we鈥檝e been doing.

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White

And, crucially, Mark, how much is it going to cost the individual?听 I mean I鈥檓 not just talking about the equipment they use to get it on but the app itself, is there going to be a cost to this?

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Powell

No, I mean, so NaviLens, we鈥檝e worked with for a number of years now and their ethos is that to the end user the technology is free.听 So, it鈥檚 an app that you can download for free, the cost falls on the stakeholder, so there鈥檚 no cost to the individual.听 Like you say, you have to have a smart device to access these things but technology is obviously providing that bridge for accessibility now in ways in which we could never imagine.听 So, the benefit of investing in a smart device in order to experience this and it, touch wood, if it goes right across the country nationally, the benefit is huge.听 The end user does not pay for the technology.

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White

Mark Powell, thank you very much indeed.

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And just before we go today, two things we鈥檇 like your help with for future items.听 It鈥檚 local election day on Thursday, throughout much of the UK, with a new Elections Bill just passed, as we reported on last week鈥檚 programme, we鈥檇 like to get your experiences of being able to vote independently and secretly this time.听 How well did your polling station know the rules?听 And also, we鈥檙e planning a programme about accessible tourism, now that we can, at last, move around more freely.听 I want to know what kind of holidays work and don鈥檛 work for you, as a visually impaired person and also, the trick of travelling with sighted friends and relatives so that both you and they get the best out of a holiday.

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You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk.听 Leave a voice message on 0161 8361338 and you can go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch from where you can download tonight鈥檚 and previous editions of the programme.听 From me, Peter White, today鈥檚 producer Fern Lulham and studio managers Phil Booth and Jonathan Esp, goodbye.

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