大象传媒

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IN TOUCH 鈥� Access to Voting Consultation; Braille Book Swap Scheme

TX:听 13.09.2022听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 BETH HEMMINGS

White

Good evening. 听Tonight, a large response to last week鈥檚 item on the RNIB鈥檚 changes to its braille library, you are not all pleased.听 And a consultation to ask blind and partially sighted people what are the most important considerations for blind people the next time they come to exercise their right to an independent secret vote.

But first, what must have struck most people over the past few days is the number of stories about the Queen which demonstrate her lively and mischievous sense of humour and her ability to put people at ease.听 We have a couple of our own.听 Quoted by David, now Lord Blunkett, in the House of Lords.听 The first happened 25 years ago as he was being inducted into the Privy Council.

Background noise in House of Lords

Blunkett

Back in those days, I knew it was going to be difficult and I was, unusually for me, quite nervous.听 I knew I couldn鈥檛 actually drag the dog across the floor because dogs aren鈥檛 very good at showing you where to kneel on cushions.听 They鈥檙e brilliant at all kinds of other things but that isn鈥檛 one of them.听 So, I left the dog with Jack Straw and I moved across the room and I did manage to hit the cushion but facing the wrong way.听 And her Majesty in what it always was a gracious and careful and never patronising way manage to gently, by touching my arm, shift me round, so that I could just brush her hand.听 I remember, also, seven years ago, much, much later, when she came to undertake the Maundy Thursday distribution at the Cathedral in my city of Sheffield and because I was retiring from the House of Commons and was the longest serving Sheffield member of parliament, I had the privilege, once again, of sitting at table with her at lunch.听 And I had a member of the charitable community in Sheffield between myself and her Majesty and there was a silence and I thought I would fill it, inappropriate, as it turned out, by saying to her: 鈥淵our Majesty, I鈥檝e been reading the papers that the breed of corgi is dying out.鈥澨� And there was a tremendous pause and her Majesty then did what she did so cleverly and so appropriately putting me down: 鈥淢r Blunkett鈥︹�� she said, 鈥溾�� of all people you should know not to believe what you read in the newspapers.鈥澨� [Laughter]

White

And there鈥檚 another nice story, which I really hope isn鈥檛 apocryphal, about another blind man at a rather grand dinner, seated next to the Queen and she, apparently, saw him struggling with a rather tough looking piece of meat, leaned over, discretely, and asked if he needed any help and then, seeing him hesitate, she added: 鈥淥h, it鈥檚 alright, I do this regularly for my corgis.鈥澨� Those corgis get in everywhere, don鈥檛 they, I do hope that is true.

Now, one of the issues we鈥檝e spent a good deal of time on, over the last couple of years, is how blind and partially sighted people can cast their vote, independently and in secret.听 Well, after a good deal of toing and froing the Elections Act was passed earlier this year but there鈥檚 still some doubt about how such issues as who can assist you in your vote at the polling station, what kind of equipment can be used and whose responsibility it is to see that this all happens.听 Well, now, a consultation, run by the Electoral Commission, is being held to find out, specifically, how disabled people, themselves, want to make voting more accessible.

Ailsa Irvine is the Electoral Commission鈥檚 Director of Electoral Administration and Guidance.听 Well, I asked her, who, in particular, she wanted to hear from.听

Irvine

Well, we want to hear from as wide a range of people as possible.听 It鈥檚 really important that everyone is able to vote without facing any barriers.听 So, our consultation on our draft guidance for local councils on how to run elections really wants to try to find out more about the barriers that people face when going to cast their vote, so that we can understand more what adjustments could be made at local polling stations to help to make that experience better for everybody.

White

Now, as far as visually impaired people are concerned, the concern as the Election Act was being debated was how specific the act should be about the kind of assistance which could be available to people in that situation, whether it鈥檚 audio equipment maybe or about some way of identifying the candidates and also, who could assist you to vote and who was responsible for ensuring such help was available in your local polling stations.听 The act has now been passed.听 Does the fact that you need a consultation process suggest that some of those issues haven鈥檛 really been addressed, aren鈥檛 really clear in the act?

Irvine

Well, firstly, the question of who can accompany someone and support them to vote, the act has made changes in that regard and has widened that out, so now people can take anyone that they want to go with them that they would find helpful to support them in casting their vote.听 In relation to the support that can be provided in polling stations, what the legislation has done has actually widened the provision that can be provided and has given more flexibility to local returning officers, which will encourage a bit more innovation.听 The guidance that we鈥檙e producing is helping returning officers with making those decisions, so that they are putting in place equipment and training their polling station staff that will help to make a very real impact for people in practice.

听

White

Well, that was the point I was going to make to you, that whatever the law says so much depends on staff at the polling station and how well they鈥檝e understood the rules.听 And to be fair, they may not see many blind and partially sighted people, perhaps only a handful on a particular polling day.听 So, what do you want to ensure to make sure that people don鈥檛 have these situations, where they turn up and somebody says well you can鈥檛 do that, you can鈥檛 go in with that person?

Irvine

Well, by providing the guidance to local authorities, we鈥檙e helping them to understand the different things that they can be doing and the things that they should be bringing to the attention of their polling station staff when they鈥檙e training.听 We鈥檒l also be providing information in our handbooks, that we provide to local authorities, to give to their polling station staff, so that they can use that in practice on the ground.听 And we鈥檝e been working with local authorities during this process.听 The conversation鈥檚 very much underway and there is an appetite from local authorities to make sure that they can be doing everything that they can.

White

Just so that I can go specifically to the issue about audio equipment because there has been a lot of work done on that and some trials which seemed to be quite successful, is that the kind of thing that you would expect to hear about from the blind and partially sighted people who contact you?

听

Irvine

Yes, absolutely, we have been having conversations with a range of organisations already, including the RNIB, with Guide Dogs and we have been hearing feedback and input that suggests that audio devices are one mechanism that a number of voters would find helpful.听 So, it is something that we have reflected in the guidance as something that returning officers should consider.听 We know there may be challenges in procuring and funding those devices, so it would be really important also that we hear from the UK government that there will be funding made available to local authorities to help them to implement the recommendations that we鈥檙e putting forward in the guidance.

White

Now talking of access, what provisions are being made actually to make it reasonably easy for visually impaired people to submit their views to you, given the fact that quite a few will struggle with online forms?

Irvine

Well, we have worked to make it accessible on the website, so that it can be used with different screen readers and other adaptive technology.听 If people are having challenges with responding we鈥檙e very happy to discuss any feedback over the phone, there鈥檚 a phone number available and provided there as well, so do get in touch with us, we really do just want to hear from people and we鈥檒l do whatever we can to make it as easy as possible for people respond.

听

White

Ailsa Irvine, thank you very much indeed.听 The consultation is open now, it closes on October 17th and we will have details about how you can submit your ideas on our own website.听 To get more information, if you have trouble with websites, you can call 0333 1031928.

Now, we always welcome your views but every now and again there鈥檚 an issue that just hits the spot.听 So, it was with last week鈥檚 item about changes that the RNIB made last year to its braille library services.听 A number of you weren鈥檛 satisfied with the answers you heard.

Paul Nichols sets the tone.

Nichols

Despite what Dave Williams said on last night鈥檚 programme, I am one of those who believes the RNIB ultimately wants to rid itself of a hard copy braille library service and move readers on to an electronic system.听 And I certainly don鈥檛 think the current arrangement can be described as a library.听 Firstly, the braille library website was set up some years ago to give members a little more control over their list of books but it鈥檚 not been working for some time.听 I can no longer check my wish list or add to it without ringing the RNIB.听 And when they closed the long-standing library service and disposed of all the books, readers lost a great many titles, all those which were not already digitised disappeared.

White

Meanwhile, Lanita Conradi just doesn鈥檛 feel that the new system is working.

Conradi听

When the new system started, I sent the RNIB a list of books which I wished to receive, based on the old catalogue and the new book list which appear from time to time.听 Despite this, I received several books which were not on the list.听 It would be rather helpful if such lists would be consulted, so that one does not receive books that either a person or a computer system just decide one wants to read.听 There are more than a hundred books on that list, so at least one of them must have been available.

White

And Gail Guest is another dissatisfied customer.

Guest

I once went six weeks without a book and did at last receive one, at the end of last week.听 I鈥檝e had many phone conversations with friends who are also braille library users and the subject of delays in getting books always comes up.听 It鈥檚 all very frustrating.听 I have got an Orbit reader and have been using that but I still prefer to read a hard copy of a book and, of course, a lot of people don鈥檛 have these things.听 I really wonder if the whole thing was thought through properly.

听

White

Well, there were more and I don鈥檛 feel that we鈥檝e heard the last of this subject.听 But there is one glimmer of light which could benefit some frustrated readers of braille books.听 It鈥檚 a book swap scheme and Tim Pennick, who was one of the contributors to last week鈥檚 discussion, told me how it would work.

Pennick

I鈥檝e set up an email list which allows anybody who鈥檚 interested in swapping braille books can just join the list.听 Once you鈥檙e a member of the list, if you have a braille book that you think somebody else might like to read, you just send a mail message to that list, everybody on the list gets to see that that book is available and anybody that wants it can then reply to you and eventually give you their contact details so that you can then send them the book.

听

White

So, it doesn鈥檛 have to be a direct swap 鈥� you know one book for one other book?

听

Pennick

Absolutely not.

听

White

No.

听

Pennick

No, indeed.

听

White

You just 鈥� if you see a book you fancy you respond?

Pennick

Exactly.听 And I mean, obviously, that relies on you being first, it鈥檚 all first come first served.听 So, it鈥檚 by no means perfect, this scheme, and it, unfortunately, at the moment, relies on people being able to access email.听 But I set it purely as a very first step in allowing people to have an alternative to throwing the books away when they鈥檝e finished with them.

听

White

Is there any way you can envisage this scheme being extended, to perhaps the people who need it most, who are the people who are not digitally confident, not using online but still want to get access to books?

Pennick

Really, I think that鈥檚 where the RNIB need to step in, that鈥檚 the first step, I think, in repairing some of the damage that was done by the changes that have been made to the braille service.听 If the RNIB would take over management of the email list, but also add some resource to handle phone calls and maybe send out text messages.听 I think it鈥檚 true to say that there are people, blind people, who can鈥檛, at the moment, handle email messages but can probably read a text message.听 So, if when a book becomes available, you get a text message which says 鈥� this book is available 鈥� and you could then phone somebody at the RNIB and tell them that you鈥檇 like to grab it.

White

Tim Pennick, thank you very much indeed.听 And for anyone wanting to join Tim鈥檚 book swap list, we鈥檝e also added the details of that to our website.

And we also have some answers for another of our emailers, whose query was prompted by the item we carried recently about a tailormade course for visually impaired people with an enthusiasm for architecture.听

John Lafferty is a retired blind judge, who鈥檚 always been concerned about what he regards as the distressingly low numbers of visually impaired people in work.听 He heard, on that feature, that one of our contributors had got a job in an architect鈥檚 office and he wanted to know how Poppy Leverson had managed it.听 Poppy was happy to explain it to us.

Leverson

It鈥檚 quite a long story but it is one that I take a lot of pride in as well, especially knowing, unfortunately, the statistics of people in employment in the blind and visually impaired community.听 For me, after attending the Architecture Beyond Sight course at the Bartlett, I did my BA Architecture at Central St Martin鈥檚, which I鈥檓 still doing part-time.听 So, due to some access issues as part of the course I鈥檝e gone part-time for my third year, so I have one more year to complete and I鈥檓 working part-time.听 The actual sort of mechanics of getting the job 鈥� we have termly crits, as part of our architecture education, which are basically a chance for us to present all of our work that we鈥檙e making to both our tutors but also people from the industry.听 And I just seemed to make a really good impression on one of the people who I was presenting to, who then put me in touch with a practice that he knew which ended up getting me an interview.

White

Right and having got the interview, you got the job?

听

Leverson

Yeah.听

White

I still think there鈥檒l be people who are thinking 鈥� well, surely, it鈥檚 a very visual thing.听 I mean what鈥檚 the biggest thing you think you can sell?

Leverson

For me the sort of argument of having any disabled people in the profession is quite an easy one to explain because I really believe that architecture is one of the biggest things that we can do when we think about the social model of disability.听 We can take away so many barriers through architecture.听 And so, obviously, having people with that lived experience will bring that up in the discussions within the design, it brings it up earlier, all of these little things that non-disabled architects don鈥檛 even notice, things that aren鈥檛 in the building regs but still make a huge difference.

White

Such as 鈥� such as?

Leverson

A really good example is having really predictable floorplans, things like having the toilets in the same place on every floor is something that sighted people don鈥檛 really think about but for a blind person it means they can go on to any floor of a building and suddenly know where they are.听 So, I think, by having more visually impaired and blind architects, you鈥檒l also get a much more of a prioritisation of the multi-sensory experience for building.听 There鈥檚 not enough understanding about it, it鈥檚 not something that architecture is striving for.听 At the moment, the building regulations are, to some architects, seen as a bit of a pain, that they have to conform to them but what we need to do is completely the change the attitudes and flip it to a place where architects are like tripping over themselves to make buildings as accessible as possible because that is something to strive for.

White

Just to get back, finally, to where we started from at the beginning, I just wonder with your job, what was the experience of the recruitment process because we hear from people who believe they鈥檙e not even invited for interviews because of their visual impairment?

Leverson

Yeah.

听

White

Yeah.听 What was your experience of that?听

Leverson

It was something that I was quite anxious about.听 I was introduced by someone who I鈥檇 barely met and who I wasn鈥檛 sure if they knew about my disability.听 So, I didn鈥檛 know if that had been mentioned at all, I didn鈥檛 know I was doing that classic debate of whether I should disclose or not.听 I ended up deciding to disclose, having seen that the practice was 鈥� they鈥檙e a very welcoming practice in what they say, which doesn鈥檛 always follow through but I鈥檝e been very lucky that it has.听 I also think a huge benefit me was that I wasn鈥檛 in a general recruitment process, they hadn鈥檛 put a job advert out and interviewed several people.听 From that interview they met me and they liked me and they liked my work and in the interview we did briefly talk about what I could do now, what training I would need, certain limitations due to my disability.听 So, I was lucky that it was all very open and the company鈥檚 attitude was very positive towards it.听 Unfortunately, I know that that really isn鈥檛 the case with everyone and I do think the fact that I wasn鈥檛 up against a hundred people that could do the same things that I could, if not more traditionally, did help.

White

Well, Poppy Leverson, congratulations with getting it anyway and thank you very much for coming back on to answer John鈥檚 questions.听 Poppy Leverson, thank you.

听

Always happy to try to answer your queries and we welcome your views as well.听 You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, leave your voice messages on 0161 836 1338 or go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch where you can also download tonight鈥檚 and previous editions of the programme.

听

That鈥檚 it from me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio manager Amy Brennan, goodbye.