大象传媒

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

听

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 大象传媒 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

听

听

IN TOUCH 鈥� A Successful Judicial Review; Renting with a Guide Dog

TX:听 01.08.2023听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

听

PRODUCER:听听听听听听听听听听听 BETH HEMMINGS

听

听

听

White

Good evening. 听Tonight, the latest news about how to have your say on the proposed closure of ticket offices and the problems some guide dog owners are having renting a home.

听

Clip

We did make a little experiment where we applied for a property separately, me and my husband, we put the same figures, the same details, the same data.听 My husband declared that we have a guide dog and I didn鈥檛.听 He didn鈥檛 get offered a viewing whereas I did.

听

White

More about that later.

听

But first, the legal decision which should make it easier to get information in a form visually impaired people can actually read.听 The arrival of the laptop and the screen reader has been a real game changer in blind people鈥檚 ability to communicate in a written form.听 But it would have been far more of a revolution if public bodies and commercial companies had been prepared to actually engage with the idea properly.听 But one of the commonest complaints that we get on In Touch is the reluctance of many of them, including government departments, to embrace the email or send documents in a format that the screen reader, which converts things into speech or braille, can cope with.

听

But now, a judgement in a judicial review against the Department for Work and Pensions, may have changed that.听 The review was sought by Dr Yusuf Ali Osman and he鈥檚 been reminding me of the events that led up to his case.

听

Osman

So, I was getting communications from the Department for Work and Pensions either delayed or in a format that I couldn鈥檛 read.听 So, they were sending me things as pdf attachments to emails that were images, so my screen reader, JAWS, was unable to read them.听 As well as that they were sending me letters in print, that obviously I couldn鈥檛 read.听 I had told them that I wanted communications by Word format and previously I had said braille but the braille was coming sometimes more than 28 days after the date on those letters.

听

White

And how long had this sort of thing been going on?

听

Osman

Years.听 The case goes back to 2016, is, I think, the first thing that鈥檚 referenced in my initial witness statement but the court, they were looking from the 21st May 2020.

听

White

And just to get it clear.听 When you talk about delays, what鈥檚 the issue there?

听

Osman

It鈥檚 really odd because the DWP seems to have this system for sending things within its own organisation before it gets sent out to me, so, I might be getting a letter telling me you owe us money so we鈥檙e going to start deducting from your employment support allowance and that letter might be dated the 1st June but I might only get it on, let鈥檚 say, 1st July and usually you have 28 days to appeal against any decision and, obviously, the 1st July is more than 28 days after the 1st June.听 The longest that I had ever had was 98 days, which was for a P60 and with a P60 you have 60 days to appeal.

听

White

Well also with us is the RNIB鈥檚 senior legal advisor, Samantha Fothergill.听 Samantha, I mean, can you sum up for us what conclusions the review has actually reached and what is now likely to happen?

听

Fothergill

So, what the court has said is that the arrangements that the DWP had put in place to provide accessible information to blind and partially sighted people, which effectively led to people suffering the kind of delays that Yusuf has talked about or getting stuff in an inaccessible format anyway, the court has basically said that those arrangements were unlawful.听 And what it means is that the DWP can鈥檛 rest on its laurels anymore, they have to go away and address the problems that have been highlighted by Yusuf鈥檚 case.听 So, they are going to have to improve their processes.听 And to be fair to the DWP, I mean, they have done some things.听 What, I think, Yusuf and his legal team and RNIB are not clear about is whether they鈥檝e done enough.听 The other very important part of the judgement is that the court didn鈥檛 just declare that what the DWP were doing to Yusuf was unlawful, they declared that what was happening for all blind and partially sighted people, who required information in an accessible format, they were also being discriminated against as well.

听

White

So, basically, this is a green light because we鈥檝e had lots of complaints about this, we鈥檝e had other people on the programme, this is a green light for them to go to the DWP and say, you know, you鈥檝e been told that you鈥檝e got to do this, you鈥檝e got to send us things in an accessible format?

听

Fothergill

Absolutely.听 And we want people to carry on complaining because I think it鈥檚 only by people complaining that the DWP will really take notice and understand how much of an impact this has.

听

White

Yusuf, if I can come back to you.听 How confident are you that this will be a landmark judgement, after all, as you鈥檝e said, I think you were receiving communications from the DWP in inappropriate formats and subject to considerable delays during the period leading up to the case being heard?

听

Osman

Yes.听 The positive thing is that finally they鈥檙e sending me communications in Word format, it鈥檚 taken them around two years to get to it but they are doing it now.听 The negative side is those communications were still received 48 and 35 days after the date on those letters.听 And given that it鈥檚 a Word formatted letters sent by email, email鈥檚 pretty instantaneous.听 Am I confident that the problems are going to be fixed quickly?听 No, Peter, I鈥檓 not.听 I think somebody else or potentially me will have to take the DWP to court again.听 But we do have something from the court now that says this is what the DWP has to do.

听

White

And I think they鈥檝e also involved you, haven鈥檛 they, in future reviews of their access policy?

听

Osman

Yes.听 So, they鈥檙e going to be updating my legal team at Leigh Day six months and 12 months after the date of the court order.听 I鈥檓 going to be joining their accessible formats team, I鈥檝e forgotten the name of the鈥� I鈥檝e actually forgotten the name of the team 鈥� reasonable adjustments forum.听 And they have invited me to test out any future technical solutions that they are currently working on, so that鈥檚 good.

听

White

Now, we did, of course, invite the minister responsible for the Department for Work and Pensions to join us on this programme, we were told that they were unable to offer a minister due to diary commitments but in a statement they said: 鈥淲e鈥檙e sorry for falling short in meeting our accessibility requirements in this instance, we have already made changes to improve this and will continue to work with our disabled customers to offer them the best possible service.鈥�

听

Sam Fothergill, you know, Yusuf has already told us of his invitation to monitor their performance, what鈥檚 the next step for the RNIB?

听

Fothergill

I think this is the first time that we have actually seen positive progress from the DWP on this.听 RNIB has been complaining about this issue for about 10 years and there鈥檚 never really been an acceptance that there鈥檚 a problem and this declaration by the court recognises that there is a problem and that the DWP will have to do something about it.听 We too need to monitor their performance and we need to hold them to account for all the commitments that they have made as part of Yusuf鈥檚 case and just to encourage people to complain and to鈥� you know, yeah, hold the DWP鈥檚 feet to the fire on this I think, that鈥檚 the only way that we鈥檙e going to make progress.

听

White

Sam Fothergill of the RNIB and Yusuf Ali Osman who brought the case.听 And, of course, we hope you keep us informed about how some of those promises are going.

听

Now the controversy over the government and train companies鈥� plans to close the remaining ticket offices at railway stations and the transfer of assistance for those who need it on to platforms and concourses has escalated from a murmur to a torrent.听 It鈥檚 now become the subject of newspaper campaigns, protesting disability organisations, threats of legal action by five metropolitan mayors and the consultation being offered by Transport Focus and London Travel Watch says it鈥檚 had more than 170,000 responses for and against.听 The result is that two consultation periods, one by Transport Focus and London Travel Watch and an ongoing inquiry into the accessibility of public transport by the Parliamentary Transport Select Committee, have been extended and both have told us that they will accept submissions from people who have online access difficulties by telephone.听 The Transport Select Committee鈥檚 inquiry has been extended to 16th August, people can call 020 719 2226.听 And Transport Focus can be reached on 0300 1232350, that鈥檚 0300 1232350, right up until 1st September.

听

We鈥檝e continued to ask the Department for Transport for a minister to come and talk to us about their plans but so far without success.

听

One thing we do appear to have had success with is our item, last week, about delays in getting vital services to people who are losing their sight and how this problem can be tackled.听 We鈥檝e had this from Elizabeth Townsend.

听

Townsend

Your programme about getting help after diagnosis could not have come at a more opportune time.听 I got a diagnosis of Age-Related Macular Degeneration in March this year and have been struggling to get the appropriate information.听 Your programme made me aware of such people as ECLOs and today I鈥檝e spoken to Hayley, who is the ECLO for Northampton General Hospital and the Northampton Association for the Blind.听 After months of trying to get some sense out of the various departments, it was the most amazing relief to actually be able to go and speak to her and have her listen to my tale of woe, listened to properly and with intelligence.

听

White

And, of course, an ECLO is an eye care liaison officer.听

听

We鈥檝e also had a very helpful clarification about the role of the Certificate of Vision Impairment or CVI, which we said was often too slow in coming and was important in giving access to a variety of services and benefits.听 This came from Martin Motts, who works for Citizen Advice.

听

Motts

Clearly the Certificate of Vision Impairment is essential to access many kinds of support.听 However, a person鈥檚 eligibility for Personal Independence Payment does not depend on them having CVI.听 Other medical evidence can be used, for example, your medical record, as printed out by your GP practice or a report from an optician.

听

White

And speaking of opticians, Peter Hoarer got in touch with us with a piece of information he鈥檇 like to see far more widely publicised.听 His deaf partner needed some urgent eye care, after experiencing flashes and floaters.听 After much toing and froing, he was finally told about a service called Primary Eye Care UK, where registered NHS patients in England can enter their GP practice鈥檚 postcode and, if the service is available in that area, it鈥檒l give you details of what opticians can provide you with 鈥� urgent eye care assessments, treatments or can refer you for sudden eye problems such as flashes, floaters or minor eye injuries.听 You need to contact your chosen practice by phone and ask for an urgent eye care service appointment.听

听

Thank you for all your responses, we read them all and we often return to them when the right moment arises, so if you don鈥檛 hear your response straightaway on the programme, don鈥檛 think we鈥檝e ignored it.

听

Now, as I鈥檓 sure you know, finding somewhere to rent at the moment is not easy.听 Many landlords are selling up, demand is high, prices are soaring.听 But having a guide dog shouldn鈥檛 make it anymore difficult, should it?听 The right to have a guide dog in your rental property is enshrined in law but that doesn鈥檛 seem to have helped Alexandra Edwards, she鈥檚 been trying to find somewhere to rent in the West Midlands.听 She and her husband are both visually impaired and Alexandra has a guide dog.听 On our consumer programme You and Yours, the other day, I asked her how long she鈥檇 been trying to find somewhere to rent.

听

Edwards

At least two years now.听 And we just kept getting rejections.

听

White

And what makes you think that the refusals that you are getting are connected for your guide dog, given that, as we鈥檝e said, the competition for homes is very fierce?

听

Edwards

So, I鈥檓 not saying that all rejections were connected to us having a guide dog but we did make a little experiment where we applied for a property separately.听 So, me and my husband, we put the same figures, the same details, the same data, my husband declared that we have a guide dog and I didn鈥檛.听 I said we haven鈥檛 got pets and I didn鈥檛 clarify any further.听 He got rejected, he didn鈥檛 get offered a viewing whereas I did get an offer to see the property and needless to say we haven鈥檛 got the property in the end.

听

White

Have any actually told you that you鈥檝e been refused because you鈥檝e got a guide dog?

听

Edwards

We were never told obviously that it鈥檚 because of a dog because, you know, it鈥檚 illegal, so they wouldn鈥檛 say that but we did get messages such as 鈥減roperty鈥檚 not suitable鈥�, we got messages such as we can鈥檛 move in because there are stairs so that wouldn鈥檛 be safe for us, things like that but obviously, no one would actually explicitly say.听 I mean if they did that would be easy, I could then challenge them on it but sadly, that didn鈥檛 happen.

听

White

What鈥檚 the situation now, I mean have you solved your housing problem yet?

听

Edwards

Trying to.听 So, we are now applying for a shared ownership property.听 Unfortunately, we can鈥檛 afford to buy outright, so we are going down this route, so, hopefully, that will 鈥� that will go through and we won鈥檛 have to worry about guide dogs anymore.

听

White

Well, good luck with it anyway.听 Listening to that was Chris Theobald, he鈥檚 from the charity Guide Dogs.听 Chris, how familiar a story is this?

听

Theobald

Sadly, Alexandra鈥檚 story is not an isolated one.听 I mean 81% of guide dog owners have been refused in some form of setting.听 When it comes to renting properties, because it鈥檚 a less frequent activity, we don鈥檛 have very firm statistics on that but it鈥檚 something that we do hear about quite a lot.听 It isn鈥檛 necessarily always clear the reason why but, I mean, occasionally, we do hear things such as increased charges and deposits.听 So, yeah, it鈥檚 a variety of reasons are given.

听

White

But presumably, it is quite easy to come up with other reasons, very hard to prove that it鈥檚 got anything to do with the guide dog, isn鈥檛 it, if people don鈥檛 say it?

听

Theobald

Exactly, yes.听 Obviously, the rental market鈥檚 become more competitive and one thing we found 鈥� I mean like anyone who鈥檚 been looking for a property, you鈥檙e anxious, you want to find somewhere and so a lot of people don鈥檛 necessarily fight it, even when the discrimination is more explicit.

听

White

Just remind us what the law says.

听

Theobald

So, people with a guide dog, because they have sight loss, which is a protected characteristic, are protected by the Equality Act in England, Scotland and Wales and the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 in Northern Ireland.听 And so, businesses and services have to make reasonable adjustments.听 So, refusing a guide dog owner for most services is likely to be indirect discrimination or failure to make a reasonable adjustment.听 We think the law could be clarified to make it clearer that you can鈥檛 refuse services or offer a lesser service across all services.

听

White

The National Residential Landlords Association say they recognise the importance of assistance dogs for renters and that they strongly encourage landlords to be as flexible as possible to enable tenants to have them.听 Are you satisfied by this?

听

Theobald

I mean there are obviously some very good landlords out there but there鈥檚 also people who are refusing, so it鈥檚 a mixed picture.听 There is confusion, especially when you鈥檝e got鈥� unclear about the responsibility, whether you鈥檙e the landlord or whether it鈥檚 the agent because that can make communication more difficult as well, there鈥檚 a lot of different players in this.听 So, we鈥檙e looking at and we鈥檙e calling on strengthening the law and the government鈥檚 disability action plan includes measures about guide dog access rights.

听

White

That was Chris Theobald from Guide Dogs and we heard, before that, Alexandra Edwards.听 We鈥檝e contacted three organisations who speak for landlords, none of them were able to provide us with someone to come on to In Touch to talk about this but we would really like to hear either from renters, owners or landlords about this situation.听 You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk about anything you鈥檝e heard on the programme or indeed something you鈥檝e heard somewhere else.听 You can leave us a voice message on 0161 8361338 or find more information on our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.

听

One more thing, we are planning to do a programme about learning a language if you鈥檙e visually impaired.听 We鈥檇 very much like to hear from people who鈥檝e done that, what methods you find most successful and we鈥檇 also like to hear from visually impaired language teachers, I鈥檓 sure there are some out there.听 Do get in touch with us.

听

From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio manager Sue Stonestreet, goodbye.

听

听