大象传媒

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IN TOUCH 鈥� RNIB Job Advert; Access to the Women's World Cup

TX:听 15.08.2023听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听听听听听听听听听听听 BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening. 听Tonight, how what started as in-stadium tailormade commentary on football matches for visually impaired fans is now going global 鈥� available worldwide and, for the first time, at the women鈥檚 World Cup 鈥� giving you an alternative way of following the all-conquering Lionesses.

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Clip 鈥� Commentary from Women鈥檚 World Cup

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Well, you can follow the team tomorrow as they take on the Matildas of Australia in the second round of the semi-finals.

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But first, from Lionesses to JAWS but not the famous man-eating shark but the bit of software, whose initials 鈥� JAWS 鈥� stand for Job Access With Speech.听 It鈥檚 a programme which does exactly what it says 鈥� it enables large numbers of blind and partially sighted people to read what鈥檚 on their computer screens, using synthetic speech, making a far wider range of employment accessible.听 So, imagine the reaction when people saw an advert for the job of a customer support officer at the RNIB, of all places, with this warning: 鈥淭his position requires using multiple systems that are, unfortunately, not compatible with JAWS screen reader.鈥澨� This is the same RNIB which a little further down the same advert describes itself as: 鈥淭he organisation which is leading the creation of a world where there are no barriers for people with sight loss.鈥澨� And one of their key aims being the creation of a fully accessible society.

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Well, unsurprisingly, this advert drew an instant and indignant reaction from a number of people who read it, many of them, no-doubt, using their JAWS screen readers to do so.听 Some of that reaction came directly to us:

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Email

When I first saw the job advert my first feeling was shock because this is an organisation who are for blind and partially sighted and if they can be so open in a job advert about inaccessibility, then what is there to stop other organisations doing the same?

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White

Many of the reactions have appeared as comments on Facebook, of which these are just a sample:

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Facebook clips

If the systems are not compatible with JAWS then it should be made adaptable, after all, it doesn鈥檛 seem very inclusive for the people the charity is supposed to represent.

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When advertising for a web accessibility consultant, a couple of years ago, the description stated that the job needed someone who could use a computer with assistive technology.听 The RNIB鈥檚 employment rate of blind people is shocking.

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RNIB aside, there is one particularly important issue here 鈥� tech companies being allowed to create products which are not accessible in the first place and the complicity of businesses who fail to use their procurement power by continuing to purchase such systems and products.听 Most businesses, whatever their disability credentials, will tend to purchase the most effective and most affordable products in the marketplace, it鈥檚 a failure of law and regulation if there is indeed a legal duty to make products and services accessible then it鈥檚 not working.

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White

Those comments from Mandy Robinson, Claire Randall and Gary Denton.

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Well, when this feeling was brought to the attention of the RNIB on Twitter, the advert was quickly amended.听 The relevant part now reads: 鈥淭his position requires multiple systems that are currently not 100% compatible with JAWS screen reader.听 However, we intend to switch to more accessible systems in 2024.听 For experienced JAWS users it is possible to use the current systems with some workarounds, for example, JAWS Scripts.鈥�

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Well, better late than never or has some real permanent damage been done?

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Well, I鈥檓 joined by David Newbold, who鈥檚 Director of Services at the RNIB and Matt Johnson, an experienced tech user and a data protection and privacy lawyer and Matt is someone who鈥檚 already talked on this programme about the problems of big companies producing inaccessible software.听 David, first.

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We know errors happen but this does seem to have been a particularly unfortunate one.听 I mean an advert for an RNIB job, which might seem to imply there wasn鈥檛 really much point in visually impaired JAWS users 鈥� and there are a lot of them 鈥� even applying.听 How could that have happened?

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Newbold

First of all, I just want to apologise for this because it鈥檚 an utterly awful mistake and I really want to apologise to anyone who was made to feel that they weren鈥檛 welcome to apply for the role.听 We鈥檙e preaching to other employers about being accessible鈥�

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White

Well, exactly, that鈥檚 the point 鈥� a lot of the people who are objecting is you are the people who are supposed to be telling people to do this.听 I want to know how it could have got into the public domain.听 I mean how much oversight would there be of a job advert before it goes public?

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Newbold

Absolutely.听 So, two failures happened here, Peter, one there was an individual who just lacked the understanding that there鈥檚 always a workaround.听 But then there was a failure in HR to put the proper checks in place.听 And I can鈥檛 tell you how seriously we鈥檙e taking this to make sure that this just never happens again because we鈥檝e let people down and we鈥檝e let ourselves down.听 This just should never have possibly happened.听 And it鈥檚 not what we stand for.听 We鈥檙e working so hard to try and support people to stay in work.听 Last year we supported about a thousand people to stay in work, often with cases where employers were like 鈥� you can鈥檛 access that software anymore.听 Every day we鈥檙e going into employers, saying 鈥� no, there鈥檚 scripting, there鈥檚 other adjustments that are possible.听 So, the fact that this happened and we dropped the ball is so disappointing and I really do want to say the role we really do welcome applications from JAWS users for this role.

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White

Okay, a mistake was made and you鈥檝e acknowledged it but shouldn鈥檛 you be concentrating on putting more pressure on companies you work with to produce software which is compatible with software like JAWS which so many blind people use, I mean it鈥檚 probably the most used piece of software?

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Newbold

Yeah, absolutely.听 So, when we鈥檙e procuring new systems, we have really strict requirements around accessibility because we want to be the best employer we possibly can be for blind and partially sighted people.听 So, we make sure all new systems are super accessible.听 But we do have a few legacy systems which may be 10 years old, they are a very, very small number and they鈥檙e a dying breed and we鈥檙e replacing them as quickly as we possibly can.听 But in terms of any system we now purchase and have done for a number of years, they have to meet really strict accessibility requirements.听 So, in this case, there is a legacy system which is over a decade old.听 But the irony in this case is there are other JAWS users using the system that the recruiting manager clearly wasn鈥檛 aware of because, as I said, there are always workarounds.听 We鈥檙e a very different organisation to where we were a few years ago.

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White

Ah well, we鈥檒l come to that.听 I want to bring in Matt Johnson 鈥� what was your reaction to the advert?

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Johnson

The first one was sort of abject horror in that obviously, there a couple of industry leading packages, sadly, that are still in accessible but there are many that do work very, very well and the question is 鈥� well, how did the RNIB procure something that wasn鈥檛 accessible.听 I mean it was no less the RNIB 10 years, if it鈥檚 truly legacy.听 Or the RNIB is big enough to pressure software suppliers to make things accessible.听 But the other side of my reaction, though, was a sort of this is a Tuesday because I think what the general impression was, from a lot of people I spoke to and a lot of people who saw the advert who commented, was well actually this is pretty much business as usual for the RNIB, quite frankly they don鈥檛 have a particularly good reputation of actually employing blind people.听 What actually here is someone just said the quiet part out loud.

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White

Well, let鈥檚 deal with that.听 David, a lot of the people who reacted strongly, as Matt says, to the initial advert also connected it with what they saw as an unwillingness by the RNIB to commit totally to employing more blind people themselves.听 After all the availability of sophisticated technology should make that increasingly easy to do.

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Newbold

We鈥檙e up to just under 20% of our paid staff and just under 60% of our volunteers are blind or partially sighted, that鈥檚 a record high for RNIB and it is rising.

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Johnson

You鈥檙e mentioning obviously that 60% of your volunteer base is blind, whereas 20% of your employed staff are blind and it feels to me thereby that you鈥檙e much more happy to allow people to volunteer for you than to actually pay them.

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White

Okay, David?

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Newbold

Okay, yeah, so first of all just thinking about our paid staff.听 As I said, we鈥檝e increased from between 12-13%, over the last couple of years we鈥檝e introduced things like a paid work placement programme, which has often been a springboard for people who鈥檝e got a gap on their CV, either into RNIB or elsewhere.听 We鈥檝e got apprenticeship schemes, we鈥檝e got internship programmes we run with the sector.听 But also, we鈥檝e got a dedicated staff network to look at how we can be a better employer and new disability policies.听 But with our volunteers, so many of our volunteers are blind and partially sighted, advocates, representatives who go out into the community and that鈥檚 massively changed recently.听 But we also, I really want to see our numbers, across the board, of blind and partially sighed people increasing where people realise that we are a very different place and we are supported and we will get the right adjustments and support in place.

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White

Matt, can I pick up one of the points that you made, when you said, you know, the RNIB, surely, is powerful enough, strong enough, to put pressure on some of these companies.听 I鈥檓 just wondering, in the real world, they have to work with these companies, after all RNIB may be a big charity but they don鈥檛 have the kind of resources which some of these multi-million-pound companies have, so I鈥檓 just wondering the extent to which they can really influence them.

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Johnson

I think it鈥檚 a really good point and there are obviously two ways that customers put pressure on suppliers, whether that is directly, of course, in terms of negotiation and saying 鈥� well, listen we can鈥檛 exactly contract with you if you鈥檙e not accessible.听 But the other way is either a name and shame style campaign, where we sort of say 鈥� listen, we know that many industry leading packages are accessible, we鈥檙e publicly calling upon some of these big companies to make their applications accessible, to allow more blind people to work.听 And thirdly, through the legislative process.听 The RNIB, by virtue of being the RNIB, has a certain degree of access to lobbying to government.听 I recognise there are limits to that and I鈥檓 a realist in that sense but surely one of the ways by which pressure could be put on companies is to get the laws changed or at least lobby to get the laws changed.

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White

Right, so David, the question there is are you being touch enough with the people you have to influence, like the government and these companies?

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Newbold

We鈥檙e really involved with big tech, whether that鈥檚 Microsoft, for example we鈥檙e on their accessibility summit and they are fantastic in the fact that they have accessibility built into every new product design and that鈥檚 the nirvana we鈥檇 love to get to.听 Similar with Salesforce, similar with Google.听 More of our concern is the fact that so many people are buying, as Matt said, those low-cost software packages which may be developed in Malaysia, may be developed off-the-shelf in South Africa with very different legislation and very different expectations as well.听 And so, that鈥檚 one issue.听 But then in terms of our own legislation here in the UK, absolutely, we鈥檝e embedded this in our priorities to influence the different political parties ahead of the next election.

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White

Matt, I heard鈥� I wasn鈥檛 sure if it was a groan or a cry of exaltation.听 Do you think the people who are doing very well, are they doing very well, you know your way around the tech world?

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Johnson

Honestly, I don鈥檛 think so.听 The main reason, for example, that certain tech products have basic assistive technology built in is because there is a standard in America that requires a base level of accessibility to allow these companies to bid for government contracts.听 So, actually, I think it鈥檚 the other way around.听 We don鈥檛 start with big tech and trying to get their attention, just saying 鈥� oh please, would you mind throwing us a crumb or two of accessibility.听 We start with the legislative process and we start with the requirement that the law imposes.听 Once one or two countries change the game and change the way that the laws require accessibility to be implemented others will follow 鈥� one.听 And two there will be requirements on these teams internationally that say 鈥� well, you can鈥檛 sell into the US market if it鈥檚 not accessible, you can鈥檛 sell into the UK market if it鈥檚 not accessible.

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White

Okay, well, we鈥檒l have to leave it there, this goes on, but thank you both for coming on 鈥� David for fronting up on this issue and Matt for spreading a little light on what鈥檚 going on.听 And if you鈥檇 like to add your contribution to this debate do get in touch, contact details at the end of the programme.

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Now, still with access, although on a rather lighter note, news of a development affecting a sporting event which has absolutely got the nation gripped at the moment, even those who probably really wouldn鈥檛 call themselves sports fans.听 I鈥檓 talking, of course, about the Lionesses 鈥� the England women鈥檚 football team 鈥� making waves at the World Cup with moments like this:

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Clip 鈥� Women鈥檚 World Cup commentary

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Well, of course, as most people now know, they made it to the semi-final and they鈥檒l play the old rival 鈥� Australia 鈥� tomorrow morning.听 And this tournament is now being streamed with what鈥檚 being called 鈥榓udio description commentary鈥� or ADC, which has usually just been available in the stadium itself but is now available to be streamed globally.听 It鈥檚 being sponsored by FIFA.听 Hala El-Ousta is FIFA鈥檚 senior diversity and accessibility manager.

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Hala, what is the significance of this for the women鈥檚 World Cup?

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El-Ousta

Well, Peter, it鈥檚 been a key principle of ensuring our tournaments are safe, inclusive and [indistinct word] free.听 So, over the years, as technology has advanced and accessibility topics have also evolved, this feature, in terms of audio descriptive commentary has allowed us to enable that vision in terms of to bring the game to all but not just within the stadiums but now as a feature within people鈥檚 homes around the world.听 Historically, it鈥檚 been done with equipment at the stadium, with receivers and headphones, whereas now with this new technology it鈥檚 able to be streamed on people鈥檚 phones.听 So, we can use their own devices, their own headphones 鈥� it鈥檚 more hygienic, especially after covid as well.

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White

One thing I must ask you, I mean, what does it offer that a standard commentary, on 大象传媒 Sport or talkSPORT, what does it offer that they can鈥檛?

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El-Ousta

So, it鈥檚 specially trained commentators that are able to provide that additional detail of that additional narration that describes the significant visual information.听 So, during the live match experience, it can focus on things like body language, expressions of the players, of the officials, of the crowd, it could be scenery, it could be the colours within the stadium.听 It鈥檚 also the exact location or distance of the ball.听 Did the player use the inside or outside of their foot to score the goal.听 Did they drop their shoulder.听 How did they celebrate afterwards.听 So, it really gives you that holistic picture.

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White

Well, let me bring in Mike Rice on that subject as well.听 Mike is the operations manager at CAFE, that鈥檚 the Centre for Access to Football in Europe and they鈥檙e the company who train the AD commentators.听

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I mean, Mike, staying with that idea, is that exactly what you鈥檙e doing 鈥� this wider idea?

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Rice

Exactly right, yeah.听 So, there鈥檚 often an assumption with TV and also radio commentary, to a lesser extent, that the listeners have watched the live matches before and certain information maybe will be by-passed in that case.听 So, where there is fill in the blanks, it鈥檚 especially helpful for many partially sighted and blind fans but we鈥檝e also had really positive feedback from other fans as well who said that it鈥檚 really helped to complement their matchday experience.

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White

And what kind of training are the commentators actually given?

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Rice

So, CAFE works with a number of expert trainers from across the globe, covering different languages and different locations.听 Typically, it鈥檚 about a day and a half in person training and then there鈥檒l be some home-based tasks as well, giving them, first of all, an introduction to what audio descriptive commentary is and what makes it different to commentaries.听 We鈥檒l start with really small clips or maybe even a picture and then we pick up on the different areas, it can be really helpful in commentating at a live match.听 So, the commentary follows exactly what鈥檚 happening on the pitch in a timely manner, so that their partially sighted and blind fans don鈥檛 get left behind.

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White

And how do people at home actually access this?

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Rice

Through the FIFA interpreting app.听 The app鈥檚 available on the Apple app store and also the Google play store.听 There鈥檚 just an access code to include in there and then you can tune in to the matches live, listening to the live commentary alongside any of the matches taking place during the women鈥檚 World Cup.

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White

And Hala, are there any other plans, are you expanding this at all after the women鈥檚 World Cup?

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El-Ousta

It鈥檚 something we鈥檙e definitely working on, really building that local base of commentators around the world so that it鈥檚 not just for our own tournaments but it exists beyond for the local clubs, games and future events as well in sports.

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White

Well, Hala El-Ousta from FIFA and Mike Rice from CAFE, thank you both very much indeed.听 And we鈥檒l put details of that access code for the FIFA interpreting app on our website.听 And, of course, we鈥檒l all be rooting for the Lionesses tomorrow, except for a few resident Aussies, who may not be.

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That鈥檚 it for today.听 If you want to respond to anything you鈥檝e heard in the programme, email intouch@bbc.co.uk, leave a voice message on 0161 8361338 or go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.

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From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers Sue Stonestreet and Amy Brennan, goodbye.

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