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Louise Doughty, sign language at music festivals, The Missing Madonna podcast

Author Louise Doughty on her new novel, A Bird in Winter; performing British Sign Language at music festivals and gigs; The Missing Madonna podcast

Author Louise Doughty talks to Samira Ahmed about her new novel, A Bird in Winter. A fast-paced thriller set in the world of espionage, it follows a woman on the run who must work out who is on her trail.

This summer for the first time British Sign Language interpretations were streamed live for all acts on the Glastonbury Pyramid Stage. Samira speaks to professional BSL music performance interpreters Stephanie Raper - who has signed for Stormzy and Eminem - and @Fletch, who is deaf and has signed for Ed Sheeran and P!nk. We also hear from deaf music lover William Ogden, who pushes for more interpretation at music events.

New 大象传媒 Sounds podcast The Missing Madonna features the daughter of a Liverpool publican who played a key role in recovering a stolen Da Vinci masterpiece 鈥 and the Dutch 鈥渁rt detective鈥 Arthur Brand who traces stolen art for a living.

Presenter: Samira Ahmed
Producer: Paula McGrath

Available now

42 minutes

Transcript - British Sign Language Music Interpretation at Live Music Festivals and Gigs

MUSIC STARTS

CROWD CHEERS

Hello, my name's Stephanie Raper,

based up in Yorkshire.

I'm a British Sign Language

interpreter that

specialises in music performance.

My name is William Ogden.

I'm profoundly deaf

and I am a huge lover of music,

live music in particular.

There's nothing greater

than being in the audience,

watching my favourite band

with an interpreter in place.

I was born profoundly deaf

and I had a cochlear implant

since I was three or four years old

and it's never stopped me

from listening to music.

# It's not my problem... #

I was just at Blur

at Wembley Stadium on Saturday.

And I've got plenty of gigs

coming up as well.

# Woo-hoo

When I feel heavy metal

# Woo-hoo

And I'm pins and I'm needles

# Woo-hoo... #

SAMIRA AHMED: And crucially,

you ASK for interpreters...

- I do indeed.

- ...at gigs you want to go to.

WILLIAM: Absolutely, yes.

Having been to Latitude Festival,

Download Festival,

with the lovely Steph here today,

who was interpreting for us,

and not just that,

I was at Guns N' Roses as well,

and Steph was interpreting.

So I do see plenty of gigs,

and it's not just me, it's obviously

my group of friends as well

that ask for these interpreters.

SAMIRA: And Fletch.

So, my name is Fletch, I'm here

with an interpreter called Kristy,

who is voicing over

what I'm signing.

So I'm profoundly deaf myself

and I LOVE music and I have done

since the age of about nine,

when I started to sign to songs.

So well-known within the

deaf community, but more recently

I've been starting to work

with Performance Interpreting,

so I translate the songs into sign,

alongside the music.

SAMIRA: Can you give examples

of some of the acts

that you've been doing

interpretation with?

For me myself, with Ed Sheeran,

I went on his tour with him,

and also for P!nk as well.

I like Ed Sheeran's music,

I like the flow of it,

I like the sound of the music.

# Come on now, follow my lead

Come on now, follow my lead

# Everybody, sing it now, hey!

# I'm in love

with the shape of you

# We push and pull

like a magnet... #

SAMIRA: And what about you,

Stephanie?

STEPH: Really diverse. Little Mix,

Korean pop - I've done BTS.

I do a lot of rock and roll, I like

doing things like Guns N' Roses,

we did Slipknot at Download -

that was lush.

I do a lot of rap.

There's not many interpreters

that will touch rap music,

but my first performance gig

was Eminem,

probably the best gig of my life,

to be honest.

SAMIRA: Well, you say not many

interpreters would touch rap.

Is that

because of how demanding it is?

STEPH: It's so fast-paced,

and the idiosyncrasies within

the language need to be unpacked

before you can even consider

creating an interpretation in BSL.

# Let's go, let's go, let's go

# My brothas don't dab

We just vossi bop

# I tell your girl to link me

at the coffee shop

SAMIRA: Fletch, can I ask

how you prepare for interpretation

for some of these acts,

and how much work goes into it?

STEPH: So, for me,

it's impossible for me to hear it.

Obviously, on the radio,

I can't accidentally hear music,

so I've got hearing aids

so I can hear a little bit of sound,

but I can't hear the words, although

I can hear the sound of the voice.

So I have to work

alongside an interpreter,

who might say to me,

"Oh, this is a good song, why

don't you try listening to this?"

I'll google the song,

bring up the lyrics,

then I'll play the music

on a music video,

and I match up the video lip pattern

to the lyrics,

so that I can get access

to the song.

Then I need to look at

the body language, the lip pattern,

because

the body language will show me

how intense that word needs to be.

Then I'll look at the translation,

so what does the song mean?

Because I don't sign it word for

word, I'm looking at the inference.

What is the meaning,

what are they trying to convey?

I need to gain a clear picture

of that and learn that,

so now I need to learn

the lip pattern,

I need to learn

all the lyrics of the song,

and then learn the signs,

so the structure is different in BSL

to what it would be in English.

It means that I am working

bilingually, in two languages,

at the same time.

I need to work out how many beats

there are before the music starts,

so for example, is it one, two,

three, four beats

and then the lyrics come in?

Maybe there are some parts where

there aren't any beats in between,

so the verse and the chorus.

Maybe the music gets louder

at that point,

and that will tell me

that I need to start to come in

at that point with the lyrics,

so it's a lot for me to take in,

it takes normally about two weeks

for me to perfect a song,

with constant listening,

for me to get it ready to perform.

SAMIRA: Watching you talk to me,

Fletch,

I'm just struck by how electrifying

a presence you are.

You've got a huge fandom.

You yourself weren't at Glastonbury,

but a lot of interpreters

who have been at these places

have been drawing a new audience

who aren't necessarily members

of the deaf community.

I wanted to ask how you feel

about the greater admiration,

in a way,

for the performance of work?

FLETCH: It's absolutely fantastic

because it's raising deaf awareness

for people.

Sign language, you know,

it's been there for years and years

and years and years

but it seems

almost as if it's like,

"Oh, this is a new thing,"

and actually it's been there

a very long time,

so hearing people look up

to the interpreters,

they see them signing, and I quite

often get comments saying that,

"I don't sign myself,

"but by watching the interpreter

alongside the song,

"it's actually given me

a new meaning to the song,

"it feels more impactful,

more emotional."

SAMIRA: William, as a music lover,

what's been your experience

of going to gigs

and how far have you noticed

a change

in the provision and the prominence

of interpretation?

WILLIAM: A lot has changed

over the years.

Sometimes an interpreter would be

away from the stage, for example,

so they would have their own area.

Nowadays, the artists are now asking

interpreters

to be on the stage with them.

It adds that kind of expression

as well as the emotion

behind the songs,

so it really does capture

a new audience,

and people are loving it,

and willing to want to learn

sign language as well.

I went to see Sleaford Mods

back in November,

and it was something else.

People were saying

it's a new meaning,

and obviously Sleaford Mods is not

for everyone

because they can be

quite controversial.

They like to swear a lot

and they are quite political

as well, and rightly so,

but they do tend to express it

in quite an aggressive way,

but I do love them

because of the way they are.

# But you can't hide

# I've seen your face now

# And you can't lie

# Ah! On the ground... #

They are quite admirable to watch,

to be honest,

because they don't have any filters.

But to have an interpreter

to also not have any filters

and to actually almost pick up

on their persona as well,

with the whole Jack-the-lad kind

of act, is quite something else,

so it's not just someone

that's interpreting the lyrics,

it's someone impersonating

what the band kind of represents.

And it's phenomenal. Me and

my deaf friends were approached

by a lot of members of the audience,

just saying,

"That was just incredible."

And I always say, "Well,

it's all down to the interpreter,"

and obviously all the interpreters

say, "No, it's all about you,"

but here's me saying, no, I'm

very grateful to the interpreters,

and for all the work they've done.

That gig was just a prime example

of how important it is

and how there should be more gigs

like that.

SAMIRA: Stephanie,

could you remind us

about the legal framework

for interpretation and signing

at music gigs?

STEPH: You're taking us back now

to the Equality Act 2010,

so the Equality Act says

that anyone who has a disability has

the right to access,

by way of reasonable adjustments,

their disability

so they can access

the same level of service

as their hearing counterparts.

For deaf people who predominantly

use British Sign Language,

that is a British Sign Language

interpreter -

I want to be able to access this

in my language,

in a language that I understand

and I can communicate in.

Last year, 2022, we had the BSL Act.

This essentially means

that British Sign Language is

a legally recognised language

in the UK.

However, there's no real government

budget behind it, so they're saying

that we should provide sign language

interpreters for deaf people,

which of course we should, because

it's their indigenous language

and they have the right to access

the same as everybody else

in society, so that,

on top of the Equality Act,

makes a piece of strong legislation,

but the BSL Act on its own

is quite weak.

SAMIRA: And I gather there was

a key legal case involving

a Little Mix gig

that's helped improve the situation.

What happened?

STEPH: Yes, that court case finally

came to fruition in 2021,

we waited four years

for it to go to court.

This is an incident that happened

in 2017.

Three deaf mums who wanted to go

see a Little Mix concert

because their children were

massive fans,

they made a request to the promoter.

June, they made the request.

The gig wasn't until September.

In June, they were told no.

They asked again, they were told no.

They asked again, they were told no.

There was no way the promoter were

willing to pay

for a British Sign Language

interpreter

for these three deaf mums to access

the concert.

Ironically, there was a whole group

of deaf people,

it wasn't just those three mums.

There were loads of deaf people

there

but they weren't willing to provide

a sign language interpreter.

Their interpretation

of the Equality Act was -

we'll print off the lyrics for you

and you can read them

while you watch the show.

That's not equity,

that's not equality at all.

SAMIRA: So, what happened

in the end?

STEPH: In the end I was pulled in

with 24 hours' notice

to go and interpret Little Mix.

Usually I'd need a month to prepare

for these sort of gigs.

Because of the last-minute nature

of the request,

I was unable to provide

interpretation for the support acts,

so they only had access

to Little Mix, as the headliner.

There were two support acts

prior to that.

Therefore they still took

the promoter to court

because it wasn't seen as equal

access as the hearing concertgoers,

and in court the judge agreed

that it shouldn't be

the promoter that decide

reasonable access.

If a British Sign Language

interpreter is requested,

that is what the promoter

should provide, end of.

SAMIRA: Has that changed things?

STEPH: It certainly...

I've been inundated with work

for sure, since that case in 2021.

That was through

the period of lockdown,

but I have noticed

since we've all been released,

more gigs have been coming up,

more people have become more aware,

and more deaf people are becoming

more vocal about what they want

when they're going to these events.

SAMIRA: William, you and your

friends proactively have been asking

for interpretation at gigs.

Can you tell me a bit

about how that's developed

and how far it's something

you still have to do?

WILLIAM: Interpretations at gigs,

it's not always there,

and it's a complicated thing to do.

Sometimes it's almost

as if I have to justify myself

to explain

why I need an interpreter.

It's happened across

a lot of venues and festivals,

and the interpreters have come out

at the last minute to say,

"Oh, we can provide an interpreter."

When I go and book a gig ticket,

I would email

the accessibility email address

that SOME venues provide,

and what cracks me up is

a lot of venues always say,

"Call us, give us a call

"and then we can be able

to provide an interpreter."

And I emailed back and said,

"It's saying in writing I am deaf,

"obviously I can't hear

on the phone."

And they tend to get back to me

in a month's time, you know,

and then they do tend

to get in touch

with the interpreting provider,

so, really, it's a lengthy email

exchange,

is how I book interpreters,

and some it's easy,

some venues just offer

the interpreter

without even asking for it,

which is very impressive, but

not all organisations provide that.

- SAMIRA: Fletch.

- When we're performing,

we always try to ask the production

team, can we have the setlist?

The singer, obviously,

they have time

to have rehearsals and practice.

Weeks before their shows,

they're ready for their tour.

For me, it takes me a very long time

to learn the songs.

I don't know what songs

they're going to be singing,

so it means I have to learn

as much of their back catalogue

of songs as possible,

plus the other two support acts,

just in case they're used

during the performance.

So it tends to be that, through

their rehearsal,

I then get given, at sound check,

I get given their setlist.

I think, "Oh, brilliant, great,

we know we've got going on."

But quite often they don't always

know what songs it might be.

We don't know in advance,

so we're having to learn

a load of songs

that, potentially, when we get there

and we get given the setlist

half an hour before the show starts,

or sometimes 15 minutes

before the start,

then it's a mad panic for us

to try and work out

who's interpreting which song,

get them in our folders,

ready, in the right order.

"Oh, gosh,

we haven't done that song."

Who's going to cover the song

we've not prepped for?

And we've also now got

a load of songs that actually are

not being used and we can take out,

we've learned them for nothing.

It means I then have to rely on

a hearing interpreter to take over

the songs that we've not prepped for

because, on the spot,

I've never heard this song before,

I can't hear the lyrics,

I don't know

the intonation of the voice,

I don't know the rhythm, I don't

know anything about this song.

- So it can be very tricky.

- SAMIRA: Stephanie.

I agree with Fletch

about obtaining setlists.

Obviously that's paramount,

especially if you're wanting

deaf performers to come and do

the work, and certainly

that sort of spotlighting needs

to be more encouraged.

I don't think it's necessarily a job

for hearing interpreters

if we can get deaf interpreters

in this industry,

but then the industry itself

is so complex

and so difficult to work with.

My musings probably go towards -

if this is problematic,

is it problematic because we are

being treated as another box to tick

on the accessibility checklist

for all promoters and venues?

When, really,

the amount of time we spend,

like, listening to this music,

unpacking the lyrics,

creating BEAUTIFUL translations,

creating a performance -

you're not interpreting

a performance,

you're performing an interpretation,

and it takes a lot of cognitive

processing, a lot of time,

a lot of study, and I think,

until we're respected on the same

level as any artist,

we're not going to get anywhere.

If we're just being brought in

last minute

because they're worried

about getting sued,

you've missed the point.

SAMIRA: Can I ask, Stephanie,

how you feel the relationship is

between interpreters like yourself

and an audience?

STEPH: The only reason that

I get to do all these cool jobs is

because deaf people exist.

With the deaf people who come,

it's electrifying,

it's wonderful to be able to perform

for the community,

especially

when it's bands that they love.

Like, you'll have people come who

have never even considered booking

an interpreter for a gig before,

and then to see it all relayed

visually

and have full access

to the concert,

it's a wonderful thing

to be able to do.

With regard to hearing audience,

sign language is

a naturally beautiful language,

it is stunning

and it should be taken seriously,

as other foreign languages

learned in education,

so, for example, French, Spanish.

British Sign Language needs to be

considered on the same level.

There needs to be much more

attention given

to British Sign Language

as the beautiful indigenous language

of Britain that it is.

People seeing it in performance,

of course they're going to go,

"Wow, this is beautiful!

"Oh, my gosh, is THAT what

that means? Goodness me."

It's eye-opening.

# I'm in love with your body

# Come on, be my baby

# Come on

I'm in love with your body

# Oh-I-oh-I-oh-I-oh-I

# Nah-nah-nah now

# I'm in love with your body

# Come on, be my baby

Come on... #

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  • Tue 22 Aug 2023 19:15

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