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IN TOUCH 鈥� U-Turn on Rail Ticket Office Closures

TX:听 31.10.2023听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听听听听听听听听听听听 BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening.听 It鈥檚 rare to find a story on In Touch which visually impaired people have been almost unanimous about and it鈥檚 equally rare to find that their view has resulted, so it seems, in a U-turn on public policy.听 But that鈥檚 the case with the controversy that surrounded rail company and government plans to close station ticket offices, arguing that the demand for them has dramatically fallen.听 Meanwhile, though, at least two consultation processes have been taking place and we know that visually impaired people have been amongst the most vociferous groups to oppose this move explaining why technology, station ticket machines, just don鈥檛 do the job as far as blind and partially sighted people are concerned.

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But earlier today, the transport secretary, Mark Harper, announced a sharp change of direction.听 His statement is read for us:

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Statement 鈥� Mark Harper (read)

The consultation on ticket offices has now ended with the government making it clear to the rail industry throughout the process that any resulting proposals must meet a high threshold of serving passengers.听 We have engaged with accessibility groups throughout the process and listened carefully to passengers, as well as my colleagues in parliament.听 The proposals that have resulted from the process do not meet the high thresholds set by ministers and so the government has asked train operators to withdraw the proposals.听 We will continue to work to reform our railways with the expansion of contactless pay-as-you-go ticketing, making stations more accessible through our access-to-all programme and 拢350 million funding through our Network North plan to improve accessibility at up to 100 stations.

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White

Well, reporter, Peter Ruddock, can bring us more of the details about this.听 I mean we鈥檝e heard what the minister said, what sort of reasons did he give for this decision?

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Ruddock

Yes, I鈥檓 not sure what the train version of a U-turn is, Peter, a look in the track perhaps.听 Essentially, there has been a feeling that these proposals just go too far, too fast and essentially, the Transport Secretary, Mark Harper, today, recognising that.听 The passenger watchdogs that put this consultation together said they鈥檇 received 750,000 responses and, as you say, groups representing older passengers, disabled passengers, visually impaired people making up a huge number of those.听 And there were concerns, essentially, that the machines, apps, just weren鈥檛 a good enough sort of replacement for a ticket office.听 There was concerns about staff essentially wandering around stations and people not being able to find them.听

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Now Transport Focus said that the train companies, to their credit, did come up with proposals that would deal with this, things like welcome points, essentially a one-stop place at the entrance to a station.听 But they said because these proposals had been, sort of, come up on the hoof, if you like, in midway through the consultation, the public hadn鈥檛 had enough time to look at the details and, unfortunately, with not enough details there just wasn鈥檛 enough for them to say that these proposals were okay to go ahead.

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White

How much do you think the campaigning that鈥檚 gone on and perhaps, particularly, from our programme鈥檚 point of view, visually impaired people, how much has that been at the kind of root of this change of heart do you think?

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Ruddock

I mean, look, only a couple of weeks ago the Department for Transport were saying these proposals would improve accessibility.听 You had the Prime Minister saying they were good for the industry, for the rail network.听 It鈥檚 clear that this huge number of responses, in particular from visually impaired people, have taken ministers by surprise and clearly you read the Transport Focus press release today, a huge amount of their concerns are around the concerns that were raised by visually people and essentially, them saying, look the train companies鈥� proposals to deal with that just didn鈥檛 give them enough detail really for them to be confident this was a good enough solution.

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White

Well, we had hoped that at this point we鈥檇 be joined by Robert Nisbet of the Rail Delivery Group which represents rail companies, unfortunately, he wasn鈥檛 able to join us.听 However, we do have a statement from the Rail Delivery Group, Peter, would you just like to read it for us?

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Ruddock

That鈥檚 right, so, the Rail Delivery Group saying, look, these proposals were about adapting the railway to the changing needs of customers in the smartphone era balanced against the significant financial challenge faced by the industry as it recovers from the pandemic.听 The statement going on to say: 鈥溾�� while these plans won鈥檛 now be taken forward, we will continue to look at other ways to improve passenger experience whilst delivering value for the taxpayer鈥�.

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White

Peter, thank you very much indeed.听 Well, earlier today, as Peter mentioned, Transport Focus, which is an independent transport watchdog, which has been running public consultation for the last couple of months, published its results and its director, David Sidebottom, is also with us.

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I mean, David, perhaps the most striking thing about your consultation was the size of the response, what can you tell us about that?

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Sidebottom

Yeah, huge and I think talking to experts on the whole principle of public consultations, this is one of the largest, if not the largest, ever seen in this country, which is quite staggering.听 And I think, as you said earlier, the breadth of the response, at Transport Focus we received just under 600,000 responses and our sister organisation, covering London and parts of the South East, London Travel Watch, took that total to nearer 750,000.听 So, a huge breadth of response but also, if I can say the passionate, very, very strong passionate individual stories from people, particularly people who are visually impaired and really concerned about what that would mean for their freedom, not just to manage the transactions at the station but, potentially, if these protections were taken away about getting staff assistance, being able to buy a ticket in the way they鈥檝e been managing to do that for a number of years, what would that mean for their quality of life and being able to travel again.听 So, really strong personal objections to the proposal.

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White

Is there actually any way that you can assess how many or what proportion of your consultation was鈥� did come from visually impaired people?

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Sidebottom
I don鈥檛 have the figure in front of me, I鈥檓 afraid, but I would certainly say it was significant.听 I think the broad sort of three responses really, so, boiled down to really the kind of broad categories that can I buy a ticket, the right ticket, at the right time to get on the right train.听 And that applied to all passengers, this concern that they would be queueing at a ticket vending machine, whether I had staff support of nor.听 And, particularly, from disabled passengers more generally about, again, how that would impact on their future journeys.听 But, also, specifically, for assistance for disabled passengers 鈥� that ability to turn up and go on the railway that is there now, yes, there could be some improvement, we know that鈥檚 a long running story, but if that was removed what would that mean for me and for my journeys in the future.听 And, also, getting access to staff, particularly at bigger stations when there鈥檚 large scale disruption at the network, you know, there may be engineering works or thinking about when there鈥檚 ad hoc disruption on the railway, can I get the right information to help me plan my journey to get back home or wherever I need to go to.

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White

So, David, plans like this don鈥檛 normally just go away, what should happen now and I mean, what do you think the government and the rail companies should do?

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Sidebottom

Well, the government鈥檚 announcement this morning seemed clear, they鈥檙e asking train operators to withdraw their proposals.听 And it鈥檚 just worth reminding listeners that this whole process, the key question we鈥檙e asked to look at is will these proposals from train companies make things better for passengers, in a nutshell.听 And I think the proposals now, as we鈥檝e objected to them on a number of broad areas, the ball is very much thrown back in the court of the train operators.听 We鈥檝e already seen, today, at least two train operators agree to withdraw their proposals.听 Now whether that鈥檚 the domino effect and we鈥檒l see more do the same鈥�

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White

Because there are 14 of them aren鈥檛 there, I think, well, at least 14.

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Sidebottom

There are 13 I think鈥� yeah, we鈥檝e worked on it for four months, there鈥檚 a lot of numbers in my head today but, yes, I think there鈥檚 certainly鈥� you know, there鈥檚 more work to be done and as your colleague rightly said earlier, there are some interesting proposals in the detail and I think some of these things need to be worked through, particularly with disabled passengers and disabled passenger representatives if they were to see the light of day.听 We don鈥檛 know what鈥檚 going to happen next but we鈥檝e already seen two operators withdraw their proposals.

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White

Right, do stay with us David.听 Many visually impaired people responded to the consultation, as we鈥檝e heard, off their own bat but it鈥檚 fair to say that there was a very concerted attempt at response mounted by the RNIB 鈥� Royal National Institute of Blind People.听 Lindsay Coyle is its UK campaigns manager; I mean you鈥檙e obviously very satisfied with this result.听 I mean how many responses did you deliver, do you think went through you?

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Coyle

Well, firstly, in answer to your first question, we鈥檙e delighted that the voice of blind and partially sighted has been heard.听 And in terms of responses, we know that at least 2,000 supporters wrote directly to their MP, in addition to those who responded to the consultation.听 So, that meant that we could reach nine out of 10 MPs.听 And certainly, this issue, when it was debated in parliament, MPs were reading out experiences from blind and partially sighted people.听 I look after our local campaign activity within RNIB and we were supporting individuals to actually respond to the consultation, to really share their views, to try and really make that impact, particularly on things like social media, so we could actually demonstrate that actually when you鈥檙e at a station in situ it can be really quite difficult to purchase a ticket with a ticket machine and that鈥� having that point of assistance was really absolutely vital.听 So, I think, it was really a concerted effort to really get the voice of blind and partially sighted people directly through to decisionmakers.

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White

And one idea that was floated during this debate was that of the on-concourse help for visually impaired people, you know, who鈥檇 be out on the station, was this really such a bad idea?

Coyle

In the research that we conducted showed that 88% of blind and partially sighted people who responded said that having that static point of assistance was really important to them making a journey independently.听 So, it鈥檚 knowing where you can go.听 I mean I鈥檓 visually impaired myself and I鈥檝e been at train stations where I think is that a member of staff or is it just somebody wearing a red coat and it happens to be a member of the public.听 And do you approach, do you鈥� and it can be quite embarrassing.听 So, I think, to know 鈥� a passenger with sight loss 鈥� to know where that assistance can be found where the ticket office is, you often learn that route to get assistance.听 So, it was about more than just buying a ticket, it was actually really that whole process of being able to get assistance, being able to have advice on your journey, if there were any changes to your journey, it was really having that holistic support but knowing where to obtain that support from, that was really the important thing.

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White

Well, amongst those who not only submitted protests but were involved in other ways with the campaign are Flick Williams and Kevin Greenham, both of them joins us, he鈥檚 a member of the National Federation of the Blind.听 Flick, if I can come to you first, I mean how did you get involved?听 I think you鈥檙e a wheelchair user as well, aren鈥檛 you?

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Williams

Yes, I鈥檓 a visually impaired wheelchair user and I thought it was so important that we mount the maximum opposition to these proposals as possible.听 We organised a demonstration outside of York Station and circulated information about the consultation amongst all disabled and older people鈥檚 networks in the city and we had an excellent turnout.听 So, I鈥檓 delighted at this announcement and I would say it鈥檚 properly gone off the rails!听 But that delight is slightly tempered by the fact that, I think, we can鈥檛 rest on our laurels.听 We鈥檝e had to put a huge amount of effort into effectively just standing still but the size of the consultation response, you know, 750,000 people, that should be used, in my view, as an opportunity for the train operating companies to actually learn about what the needs of disabled people are and how they can actually set about improving their services.

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White

What would you want them to do because there is a genuine issue of trying to make the best use of finances.听 We expect our public bodies to that.听 They have always argued that the number of tickets that are bought has gone down to about 12%.听 And so, it鈥檚 not wrong, is it, for railways, for governments, to look at the best way to spend their money?

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Williams

Yeah but it鈥檚 also about equality, isn鈥檛 it, because, you know, we are fare paying passengers, just like non-disabled members of the public and if we require passenger assistance to enable us to travel, you know, that鈥檚 just inline with equality legislations that was also hard fought for a long time ago.听 So, really it boils down to what kind of society do we want.听 Do we want one that includes everybody and allows people to participate in every aspect of life independently or do we not.

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White

Let me bring in Kevin Greenham, I mean the National Federation of the Blind, that鈥檚 what Flick has just said, is part of its remit as well.听 So, what do you want to see now?

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Greenham

Yeah, first of all, Peter, I鈥檓 really pleased to hear the news this morning, I think it鈥檚 marvellous that hopefully we have finally been heard.听 One thing I would like to see is, the staff at all stations, to make sure that there are staff available and that people can turn up and go in safety when they want to.听 Purely for health and safety it鈥檚 great that we鈥檙e going to be keeping ticket offices but I would like to see more stations being staffed, not just part-time, full-time staff.听 And I鈥檓 glad鈥� you know, I really am pleased about that.

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White

That would mean higher fares, wouldn鈥檛 it, somebody鈥檚 got to pay for that?

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Greenham

Well, as often we say, it鈥檚 a Catch-22 situation.听 But, you know, we do need鈥� we do need health and safety.听 Now, obviously, when stations are closed, one wouldn鈥檛 need staff but certainly when鈥� during operating times, especially in smaller stations it would be good.听 But we鈥檝e got to consider people, not only blind people, people in wheelchairs, people who may be vulnerable for other reasons.听 But, you know, I really am pleased that we have achieved this in the first place.

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White

So鈥� and you鈥檙e talking there, for example, presumably, about late at night, when you can quite often come upon鈥� you know, come to a station and find there鈥檚 absolutely nobody there when you鈥檝e got to get off it somehow?

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Greenham

Yes, that does make one feel vulnerable.听 And certainly, I would not like to travel late at night if I knew there was going to be nobody there to assist, especially in the present times in which we鈥檙e living.听 It鈥檚 important that there should be somebody on hand.

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White

I just鈥� Kevin Greenham, thank you very much indeed.听 I just want to quickly go back to David Sidebottom of Transport Focus.听 These ideas do not usually go away, what are you expecting to happen next, what do you want to happen next?

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Sidebottom

Well, I think, the鈥� under the strict rule while this procedure takes place, the train operators have two choices.听 One is that they withdraw their鈥� withdraw their proposals based on our objection or it gets escalated to the Secretary of State.听 Now we鈥檝e heard from the Secretary of State today saying that the train operators should be encouraged to withdraw their proposals.听 So, in this immediate fallout I鈥檓 not entirely sure.听 What I would say, is that some of the train operators we鈥檝e been talking to over the past four months, are keen to see where these decisions go.听 But I think the fact we鈥檝e seen two operators withdraw their proposals today, it may send a signal in the short-term.听 But to coin a railway phrase, these ideas might be shunted out to the sidings to come back on to the network again and we might be talking one, two, three years away, I鈥檝e absolutely no idea.听 But what鈥檚 been very clear, through that huge response from passengers, is the huge amount of information that the railways should be looking at now and saying how do we make this better for passengers because that鈥檚 what we鈥檝e had to focus on this, as part of our review.听 All these plans and proposals have got to make the railway better.

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White

Well, what you can rely on is that In Touch will continue to keep an eye on this story.听 And we鈥檇 like your responses.听 Now anyone regret this decision from the point of view of visually impaired people?听 I said it was unanimous, or almost unanimous, if you know otherwise tell us.听 You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, you can leave voice messages on 0161 8361338 or go to our website where there鈥檚 more information.

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From me Peter White, all our guests and also Beth Hemmings, the producer, studio manager Jonathan Esp, goodbye.