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IN TOUCH 鈥� AbilityNet Tech Conference; Love on the Run

TX:听 21.11.2023听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听听听听听听听听听听听 BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening.听 Tonight, we see-saw wildly between the ultra-modern and the deeply traditional.听 After all, what could be more traditional than meeting and falling in love?

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Clip

So, I鈥檝e gone along to Park Run and I was introduced to Mike, who guided me round Park Run and we just kind of clicked.听 We just started getting to know each other and chatting along the way.听 The more miles we ran the more we got to know each other.

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White

More about love on the run later in the programme.

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But first, the very latest on what seems certain to be a highly digital future for all of us, visually impaired people included.听 But that鈥檚 the point 鈥� will we be included or will we be left behind as the pace of change continues to gather speed?

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After all, doesn鈥檛 matter what you do these days 鈥� work, shop, bank, learn, seek healthcare, date 鈥� technological literacy is becoming increasingly vital.听 Hence the importance of a conference, last week, hosted by AbilityNet, that鈥檚 a charity which promotes the use of technology for visually impaired people, the conference involved many of the big players in this field 鈥� Google, Microsoft, Sony, some of the big banks 鈥� and it described itself as championing digital accessibility and the business case for inclusivity.

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So, did it live up to its billing?

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Robin Spinks is Head of Inclusive Design at the RNIB.听 He was there, he even got himself on a panel.听 Robin, you鈥檙e an enthusiastic user of technology.听 First, a general question 鈥� what were the key things you took from this conference?

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Spinks

Well, Peter, you know, technology鈥檚 changing constantly, isn鈥檛 it and I think bringing people together to focus on those changes and how they can be embraced, is absolutely critical.听 You know, lots of conversations about AI and machine learning, so artificial intelligence and machine learning but also, a lot of questions and a lot of conversation about how businesses are adopting technology, how they鈥檙e adopting accessibility and, more importantly, embedding it into their practices, their DNA, if you like.

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White

But, presumably, part of the problem is persuading them that it is actually worth their while.听 I know what people tend to say is, of course, we are there for everyone and so forth but these organisations are also about money, they鈥檙e about profit, you have to persuade them it鈥檚 in their interests.听 How do you do that?

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Spinks

I think at RNIB we鈥檙e working with lots of businesses where we鈥檙e seeing more people, more organisations and business leaders committed to accessibility, they recognise that this makes absolute sense.听 And it鈥檚 often about winning executive sponsorship.听 This is about executive leaders buying into the motivation, buying into the business case and understanding that if you make something more accessible for disabled people, for blind and partially sighted people, you make it more accessible for everybody else.听 And actually, there鈥檚 a business benefit whatever your industry happens to be.

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White

Okay, well you can鈥檛 talk about technology at the moment without discussing AI, you鈥檝e already mentioned it.听 Is that the step change for VI users that many people are claiming and what would you pick out as the developments that are already coming on stream, which could make a real difference to us?

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Spinks

I think in time AI will deliver huge benefits for all of us and certainly for those of us who live with a visual impairment.听 Actually, we鈥檙e seeing, already, huge outputs that are helpful 鈥� picture descriptions, for example.听 Ask a person to describe a picture, then ask an AI to describe a picture, it鈥檚 really quite illuminating.听 So, we鈥檙e seeing much richer, more vivid descriptions of images.听 We鈥檒l see a lot of changes to the way that people experience customer service.听 So, simple transactions, like booking and buying, which can be a real frustration online, we鈥檒l see those transactions simplified into speech-driven transactions that can deliver much more quickly.听 But, you know, it鈥檚 not a magic bullet and I think that鈥檚 what we鈥檝e got to be really careful about.听 The fundamental principle remains that designers and creators and developers of software and hardware and services need to create those products in ways that are inclusive.听 That fundamental focus on good inclusive design practice, that鈥檚 not going to shift.

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White

And, presumably, there鈥檚 quite a lot of competition in this field.听 I mean, I think, for example, in this whole business of using AI to describe things, Google and Microsoft they鈥檝e both got new stuff around, haven鈥檛 they, which was probably demonstrated at this conference?

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Spinks

Yeah, so, Copilot, is the facility that Microsoft were talking about, is embedded in the Microsoft 365 apps that you use every day 鈥� Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook, Teams and more.听 So, Copilot gives you a first draft to edit and literate on and then you鈥檙e kind of saving your hours in writing, sourcing and editing.听 So, you could be creating a checklist or you could be creating an itinerary, or maybe even a workplan and you could use it to actually create much more quickly than you would typically be able to do if you were typing and thinking and stopping and editing.听

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Bard, from Google, which is the AI facility that Google have developed.听 Bard will allow someone who鈥檚 blind or partially sighted to speak into the application and actually ask a question and get an output not dissimilar to what you can currently do, for example, on Chat GBT, where you can get, you know, summarised information presented in a paragraph, sentence form.听 I would be cautious, let me just say, if it鈥檚 for work, I would be cautious about fact checking and cross checking.听 But if I want a quick summary of something, of maybe legislation in an area or I want a quick summary of what to pack for a paddle boarding trip 鈥� that was my personal example 鈥� Bard was able to think of things that I actually missed, for example, the tide times, I needed to make sure that I had a whistle, for example, I had drinks packed.听 So, it鈥檚 got a huge relevance for personal day-to-day independence in life and also from a work point of view.听 But I think absolutely critical is giving people the confidence in how to use those technologies, you know, we mustn鈥檛 forget people who are not perhaps as enthusiastic about technology as I am, we can鈥檛 leave people behind.听 So, I think absolutely critical is that mainstream advances in AI continue to benefit blind and partially sighted people.听 It shouldn鈥檛 be a divide in terms of what people experience so鈥�

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White

Well, hang on, let鈥檚 explore that idea of a divide because, I mean, there are two digital divides, aren鈥檛 there Robin, there鈥檚 the divide between sighted people and very competent visually impaired people, like you and there鈥檚 the divide between the competent VI people and those, and I鈥檇 include myself in this, who struggle with the basics.听 How do you deal with that?

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Spinks

I think there鈥檚 a responsibility on all of us to share our knowledge, you know, and sharing kind of stories but also sharing strategies and hacks because often that鈥檚 what it takes is just that confidence to know that someone, who鈥檚 the same age as you, has mastered it, they鈥檝e moved a little bit further along and understanding that you鈥檙e not alone because it can be quite daunting.听 If you live on your own and you鈥檙e an older person, technology must be really daunting.听 So, enabling them to see that technology can make your life better and it can be a great support and companion.

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White

Do you think that we may be seeing perhaps a bit of a recognition on the part of some big commercial companies that they shouldn鈥檛 lose the human touch?听 I mean we know of at least one supermarket chain who are moving away from technology at the check-out and going back to fully staffed check-outs.听 I mean, could this be the start of a trend, do you think?

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Spinks

This is interesting, Peter, isn鈥檛 it?听 I mean this is Booths, the supermarket chain, predominantly in the North of England, just last week announced that they would be actually moving stores back to staffed check-outs, rather than having a purely self-service check-out function.听 And, you know, what that underlines is exactly what you鈥檝e said 鈥� the importance of good human support.听 We鈥檙e very happy to see an environment where you鈥檝e got a mix of human intervention and technology that鈥檚 accessible to people.听 So, it鈥檒l be really interesting to watch this and see whether this is a one-off, I suspect we鈥檒l see the same thing happen in other parts of the retail world but let鈥檚 watch this one.

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White

So, surely, as well as clever ideas we need legislation, don鈥檛 we, to make sure that ideas are presented in an accessible form, almost as a matter of course.听 We haven鈥檛 really got that in the UK, have we?

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Spinks

Well, you know, we continue at RNIB to campaign for legislation and we鈥檙e looking, of course, right now, at the European Accessibility Act, that鈥檚 one tool that will come into force, in fact member states have got until 2025 to essentially present and have enforceable legislation in country.听 I鈥檓 not a lawyer, my legal colleagues will give you a much fuller description.听 But, you know, one of the things that we want to see is companies being required to provide a minimum standard of accessibility.

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White

But, I mean, we鈥檙e not in the EU, I mean, how much benefit are we going to get from European legislation?

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Spinks

Well, it remains to be seen but one of the things that is encouraging is we know from discussions with a number of manufacturers that companies don鈥檛 intend to develop a product for the EU market and then one for the UK.听 What will happen is products will be designed to comply with the European legislation and even though the UK鈥檚 not in the EU, we鈥檒l get the same product, if you like.听 Lots of the bigger manufacturers are making an EU version of a product, like they would make a US version and that EU version will need to come up to the kind of standard that will be required in legislation.听 It鈥檚 our understanding that the European Accessibility Act will cover self-service kiosks and check-outs, so it鈥檒l be really interesting to see how this progresses.

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White

Robin Spinks, thank you very much indeed.

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Spinks

Pleasure, thank you Peter.

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White

Now let鈥檚 take a break from tech, shall we?听 Anyone who listens regularly to In Touch will know that blind or partially sighted people who鈥檝e had the urge to take up running, either to entre serious competition or as a way of getting fitter or just for fun, often team up with a sighted guide to achieve the best results.听 Well, that鈥檚 exactly what Kelly Barton did several years ago when she met Mike Leatherbarrow.听 You can imagine that to run together you do need confidence and trust in each other to make it work.听 But now Kelly and Mike have taken that a stage further.听 Earlier this month they got married.听 I鈥檝e been talking to them both and I began by asking Kelly how it all started.

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Barton

I鈥檇 gone along to Park Run because I wanted to get more, you know, fit and healthy.听 Obviously, when you鈥檙e blind it can be a lot more challenging to access physical activity and sport.听 So, I鈥檇 gone along to Park Run and I was introduced to Mike, who guided me round Park Run.听 And we just kind of clicked, we just started getting to know each other and chatting along the way.听 After doing so many Park Runs, then I wanted to do a 10K, then a half marathon, then we did the London Marathon and I guess the more miles we ran, the more we got to know each other.

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White

So, I mean was it an instant attraction or did the chemistry take a while to kick in?

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Barton

I think there was a spark for me straightaway, I think I kind of knew that I liked Mike.听 And I think he was the same but because we鈥檇 sort of built this solid friendship, it was then difficult to kind of go oh actually, this could be more.听 So, I think both of us didn鈥檛 know what to do for a while and then, yeah, it did happen.

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White

Well, we鈥檒l bring in Mike on that in a minute.听 Just one more question for you.听 What were you, as the visually impaired part of the combination, what were you looking for in a running partner, what makes the partnership work?

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Barton

I mean, obviously, everything is based on trust.听 You know, putting my cane down to run with someone and hoping they keep me safe.听 And someone that was kind of patient, as well, because I wasn鈥檛 very good at running at the start.听 But also, someone I could get on with and have a laugh with and, you know, it wasn鈥檛 just about the running because when you get into doing longer distances you need to be able to enjoy a chat with someone.听 So, you definitely need to click with your guide runner, I think.

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White

Right.听 So, Mike, I mean, how did you get involved in being a guide runner in the first place because Kelly wasn鈥檛 your first partner was she?

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Leatherbarrow

No, that鈥檚 right.听 So, I was inspired after being a volunteer at the London 2012 Paralympic Games, soon after that I took up running, loved it and then I chose to become and train as a guide runner, to ensure that other people can appreciate the love of running that I found.听 It was just inspiring, awe-inspiring to see what can be achieved when someone gives the opportunity to someone else to achieve.

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White

Right, now, this is to both of you really because Kelly mentioned that you鈥檇 sort of chatted and talked.听 I鈥檇 have thought you鈥檇 be a bit too breathless to have much conversation in this situation, how did that work?

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Barton

Well, I mean, Mike is a really fast runner, he鈥檚 much faster than me, so he鈥檚 always got enough breath to chat.听 And when you do long runs you kind of run a lot slower than your normal pace.听 If I鈥檓 doing a fast 5K Park Run there鈥檚 no way I have a chat but if we鈥檙e doing a long marathon training run, then, you know, you鈥檙e a lot slower, so you do have the ability to chat then.

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White

Kelly, have you鈥� this was a 5K run, I mean, have you thought in terms of actual competition, sporting competition for this?

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Barton

Not beyond, so I鈥檝e done sort of half marathons and marathons but no, and I enjoy doing that.听 I love Park Run because I think it鈥檚 almost like a competition with yourself because you want to see your times getting quicker.听 But beyond that鈥� I mean it鈥檚 inspired me to do more sports, you know, beyond running which has been great because鈥�

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White

Because you tandem ride as well, don鈥檛 you now?

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Barton

Tandem ride, I do some VI tennis and I鈥檝e started鈥� I鈥檝e joined a blind baseball team鈥�

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White

Mmm, that鈥檚 interesting.

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Barton

And I wouldn鈥檛 have done any of these things prior to my鈥� I only started running when I was 40, so I feel like I鈥檓 doing everything now that鈥檚 fun, that probably most people do in their 20s, but I鈥檓 enjoying it so it鈥檚 fine.

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White

So, this is to both of you.听 What happens if鈥� because, you know, romance has bloomed, as we鈥檝e said, what happens if you鈥檙e in the middle of a row, if you鈥檙e going for a run or entering a competition, what happens then if there鈥檚 a bit of a, you know, freeze on?

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Barton

Well, I have to say, it has happened.

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White

Yeah, I thought it might have done.

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Barton

We were doing cross country not so long ago and I absolutely hated it and I didn鈥檛 want to carry on because it was just awful, there was mud everywhere, it was just horrendous and Mike was saying 鈥� No, you never give up, you never give up, come on keep going it鈥檚 fine.听 And I was saying 鈥� Yeah, it鈥檚 alright for you, you can see what鈥檚 ahead.听 And we did have a bit of a鈥� and we were last people to finish, the steward was at the back of us sort of having to stand there to see if we were going to carry on while we had this row.听 And then we did carry on, of course, and of course I finished it.听 And she came over at the end and congratulated us.

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White

We鈥檇 better get Mike鈥檚 view on this.听 I mean, it sounds as if you were very tolerant, why didn鈥檛 you run her into the nettles?

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Leatherbarrow

Not intentionally, of course not, no.听 But I think, as you do longer journeys, usually as a runner, you go through different stages and you feel like you can鈥檛 do it and you鈥檙e struggling, you鈥檙e combating with yourself and normally experienced that by yourself, so you can go through those emotions but, of course, when being guided I鈥檓 directly next to Kelly, so, when she鈥檚 saying I can鈥檛 do this, I really hate this and it鈥檚 quite a skill to not take that personally, to understand you鈥檙e just going through those various levels and phases of the challenge of the long duration.听 But, yes, the cross country was probably are only time we did have a disagreement but we agreed at the end like we always do.

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White

Just one more question.听 One thing that was pointed out to me, when you were on television, Mike you鈥檙e quite a lot taller than Kelly, aren鈥檛 you?

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Leatherbarrow

Yes, I鈥檓 5鈥� 11鈥� and Kelly, she鈥檒l probably correct me, 4鈥� 10 and or 9鈥�

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Barton

A little bit.

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Leatherbarrow

A little bit, yes.听 That鈥檚 the important bit, that little鈥�

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White

So, how does that work?听 Presumably, that will have an effect on your stride as well, won鈥檛 it, Kelly?

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Barton

Yeah, I mean, Mike more just has to try and match my stride unfortunately but what we do is the tether is on Mike鈥檚 lower arm, so that I can reach it, we use the rumble tag, so it鈥檚 on his lower arm and then I hold the handle rather than putting it any further up.听 So, it works fine and actually now sometimes when I run with someone with my own height or similar height it feels weird because I鈥檝e kind of got used to my arm being slightly up.

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White

Right.听 So, do you mind shortening your stride, Mike?

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Leatherbarrow

Oh, not at all.听 The ramble tag has allowed Kelly to naturally swing her arms, where previous to that it was quite static and, of course, a bit of aches and pains and so forth.听 But it does come naturally now and I can use that to base, if she鈥檚 struggling or she can go quicker, so it鈥檚 a good feedback mechanism.

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White

So, are you going to carry on running, now that you are hitched?

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Barton

Oh, definitely, yeah, yeah.

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Leatherbarrow

Certainly, yeah.

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Barton

Yeah, always looking forward to the next running challenge.听 We have applied for the Berlin Marathon next year, so if we got in that, that would be quite nice and that will be our next challenge.听 But, for now, we鈥檒l probably like carry on with our Park Runs, which we love, we just love the whole community of Park Run and sometimes we go and just walk it and really enjoy that.听 And Mike and I both volunteer at Park Run.听 So, we love all the aspects of it and the different ways that people can get involved, so that鈥檚 really nice.

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White

Right.听 Well, look, many congratulations 鈥� Kelly Barton, Mike Leatherbarrow 鈥� we wish you all the best both with running and with married life.听 Thank you.

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And that鈥檚 all for today.听 You can email us with your comments intouch@bbc.co.uk.听 You can leave us a voice message on 0161 8361338.听 Or go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.听 From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers James Bradshaw and Simon Highfield, goodbye.

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