´óÏó´«Ã½

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

Ìý

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.Ìý BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE ´óÏó´«Ã½ CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

Ìý

Ìý

IN TOUCH – Accessible smart meters, A blast from the past!

TX:Ìý 23.01.2024Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

Ìý

PRODUCER:ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

Ìý

Ìý

Ìý

White

Good evening.Ìý

Ìý

Theme Tune – This Week

Welcome to this special edition of This Week with me, Tim Wilcox in Chile where one of the most amazing rescue attempts in history has taken place.Ìý The whole world has been gripped by the story of the 33 trapped miners underground here for more than two months.

Ìý

White

And we’ll be finding out later why one of those gripped by it – an In Touch favourite – has pursued it in an eight-year project which came to fruition at the weekend.Ìý Intrigued?Ìý Well, stay with us.

Ìý

But first, a project which we thought had come to fruition almost exactly a year ago, when we believed we were in a position to reassure listeners that if they wanted an accessible in home smart meter display they had a right to expect it from their energy supplier.Ìý The reassurance was necessary because we’d been receiving, for quite some time, a lot of complaints from blind and partially sighted people who wanted to be able to monitor their energy use but were finding that often the people tasked with fitting those bits of equipment were turning up with the wrong inaccessible equipment or that some companies denied all knowledge that there was such a device.Ìý But by mid-January last year, after researching most of the big companies and having received further assurances from them, we felt confident enough to say that the problem was solved and yet the complaints have continued, admittedly now more of a trickle than a flood but still coming, including one from David and Chris Ferguson, who had been dealing with one of the companies most adamant that they were on top of this situation.Ìý We’re going to be talking to Octopus in a moment but first Chris Ferguson joins me.Ìý

Ìý

Tell me about the problems you’ve been having, but first, why you wanted one of these pieces of equipment in the first place.

Ìý

Ferguson

I first heard about this equipment on the In Touch programme last January and I do have sight impairment and when I heard about them I thought that would be really good, I want one.Ìý And I started the process last January and unfortunately, believe we had four visits from various engineers, I must say they were all sub-contractors but we had at least three and I think today was the fourth visit from an Octopus engineer.Ìý They brought the wrong device or said it wouldn’t fit the meter outside, so I wasn’t very happy.Ìý So, we had a long trail of telephone calls, emails, assurances and unfortunately, it had to escalate to a complaint.

Ìý

White

And in that time, you’ve had, what, reassurances?Ìý I mean what kind of things were Octopus saying to you, because presumably you got in touch with them, what was being said?

Ìý

Ferguson

Yes, I believe I started it with a telephone call but then it came into emails and it was – yes, we can do this, this isn’t a problem – and an engineer would come with the wrong one and he’d say – well, I haven’t got one, we’ll order one.Ìý So, I’d get back on, it would be another email or telephone call and I was getting a lot of assurances that they did supply this but they just didn’t have them in stock.

Ìý

White

How long were the gaps between these various attempts that you made?

Ìý

Ferguson

Oh, months.Ìý Unfortunately, I haven’t got the full trail but it has been months in between and that usually an engineer would leave then I would send another email to say, well, you know, it hasn’t happened again or we’d have a telephone conversation and I got a lot of assurances but unfortunately, nothing materialised for a very long time.

Ìý

White

Were you tempted to give up?

Ìý

Ferguson

No, I don’t give in easily as anybody that knows me will tell you.Ìý No, I don’t give in but it’s something that I wanted and I felt I should be able to get quite easily.

Ìý

White

They were due to turn up this morning, so we took a gamble, what happened?

Ìý

Ferguson

This morning a very nice Octopus employed engineer called Matty, he arrived, just before nine o’clock, as promised and by 9.30 the device was installed, he had instructed me how to use it and now I know how to use it and he left and that was all done within 30-35 minutes of him arriving.Ìý So, the service in the end was brilliant, unfortunately it just took such a long time to get there.

Ìý

White

Right, well, by then, of course, Octopus knew that you were coming on this programme, which might have had something to do with it.

Ìý

Ferguson

Yes, whether it was coincidence or not, we’re not quite sure but yes, the following day my husband got a telephone call to assure them that they were on it.

Ìý

White

Well, listening to all that is Rebecca Dibb-Simkin who is Octopus’ Chief Marketing and Product Officer.Ìý It’s not good enough, is it, that, Rebecca?

Ìý

Dibb-Simkin

No, I mean, I’ve got to be honest, we didn’t cover ourselves in glory there, no, Chris is absolutely right.Ìý She chased us for some time, we messed up.Ìý We have nearly a thousand engineers who are directly employed, all engineers should have on their van an accessible IHD, there was a problem at the beginning of last year with supply but they should now all have one.Ìý In some areas of the UK, we do use sub-contractors and so the engineers… some of the engineers who were sent were from a sub-contractor who did repeatedly turn up without one, which isn’t okay, because that’s our problem, not Chris’ problem and we have now distributed an accessible IHD to every single engineer, whether they work for a sub-contractor or not.Ìý What we also find is that we put a huge amount of focus at Octopus on general accessibility of our website, so a lot of visually impaired customers will use our website which has been built in responsive design, so actually will respond to anything that you set or browse or your device to do – screen size, contrast, all that kind of thing – which is how a lot of people access information about their energy usage.

Ìý

White

What is the situation now and what guarantees are you prepared to offer, on air, to our listeners that this couldn’t happen again?

Ìý

Dibb-Simkin

All of our engineers do hold an accessible IHD on their van.Ìý I mean we could have situation where someone went out and had two jobs a day where one was needed and they might not have the second one.Ìý I think all we can do is make sure that everyone has one, make sure that everyone is trained in how to install it and apologise for this issue and promise that we’ll do our very best to make sure it doesn’t happen in future.

Ìý

White

Just one other thing.Ìý I mean there are other problems we as blind and partially sighted people face with energy companies, you know, finding someone to talk to about any difficulties, rather than just being referred to websites, long waits on phones, for instance, having communications like bills or statements in an accessible written form.Ìý

Ìý

Dibb-Simkin

So, we aim to answer the phone in under two minutes and you’ll always get put through to a real live person, so we don’t have a complicated IVR, press this one for meter readings or this one for bills.Ìý We’ve just been awarded the Which recommended supplier for the seventh year in a row for our customer service and we do really pride ourselves on making things easier for all customers to contact us, whether they have a visual impairment or a disability or not.Ìý So, I would hope that this is very much an unusual edge case in the service that we like to offer.

Ìý

White

Christine, are you a satisfied customer now?

Ìý

Ferguson

I am no, yes, unfortunately it took such a long time and I don’t have anything against Octopus as a company, as Rebecca says, they are good at customer service but it’s just actioning the precise issue that I brought up.

Ìý

White

Well, of course, this is not just an issue for Octopus.Ìý We would like to continue to hear from people who want to get one of these devices from whoever their supplier is.Ìý Do tell us how you’re getting on, we will try to deal with it for you.Ìý You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk or leave a voice message on 0161 8361338.Ìý Chris, Rebecca thank you both very much.

Ìý

All

Thank you, Peter.

Ìý

White

Now unless you’re very young you must remember this story.

Ìý

News clip

The cave in happened on August 5th.Ìý The disaster here in the desert left 33 miners trapped under tens of thousands of tonnes of rock, more than 600 metres underground.Ìý Drills were brought in to try and probe to see if there were any survivors.Ìý Then 17 days after the cave in sounds were heard down one of the bore holes and when a video probe was sent down a face could clearly be seen.Ìý Finally, in the early hours of Wednesday morning, news came that the world was waiting for, the Phoenix capsule was lowered down the shaft and one by one the 33 trapped miners came to the surface.Ìý The first one up was Florencio Avalos. [Clapping]

Ìý

White

Well, the world applauded that astonishing rescue in Chile back in 2010 but one person, very well known to In Touch listeners, did rather more than applaud and has been engaged with this project for the last eight years.Ìý Cheryl Gabriel worked with me for around… ooh, well I think it was about 25 years on In Touch, first as reporter and for the last 20 or so as producer.Ìý We’re bound on a programme like In Touch to allow our own enthusiasms to influence what we put in the programme and one of Cheryl’s, undeterred by her partial sight, was for photography, which has led to her project to photograph the miners who endured that extraordinary experience of being buried for almost 10 weeks.Ìý Well, Cheryl’s project came to its climax over the weekend in Chile.Ìý

Ìý

Cheryl, first of all, lovely to have you back on the programme.

Ìý

Gabriel

Ola, Peter, as they say over here.Ìý It’s lovely to be back talking to you.

Ìý

White

Can we start at the end of this story, rather than at the beginning which I’m sure, as my producer, you wouldn’t have allowed.Ìý But what happened at the weekend, just set it up for us?

Ìý

Gabriel

Well, I arrived in Chile about a week ago and travelled to Copiapó which is the Atacama Desert region where the San José Mine is located.Ìý And I wanted to meet with as many of the miners as I could to bring them the book that I have made during the past eight years with them.Ìý And on Saturday we all met and then I did a little speech in Spanish.

Ìý

Extract of Cheryl Gabriel’s speech (in Spanish)

Ìý

And I basically said to them what the project meant to me and I thanked them very much for having faith in me.Ìý I presented them with their books of the pictures of 32, actually, of the 33 of them, which I’ve taken over the last eight years in three visits to Chile.

Ìý

White

What was it about this story that so captured your imagination?

Ìý

Gabriel

Well, I’ve been thinking about this, I’m quite fascinated by human experience and if you like sort of difficult situations where people are in a stressful situation.Ìý And I think it’s because I put myself… try to put myself in that situation and then get really, really worried about it.Ìý And the miners’ story was the first such experience for me when I realised how obsessed I was and how worried I got about the fact these guys were underground.Ìý And as each man came out, I was just more and more elated.Ìý And it’s one of those rare stories that actually had a happy ending and where all of them were rescued.Ìý It just got me, I just felt absolutely rivetted.Ìý And I said to my mum, at the time I just want to meet those guys one day, you know and take their picture or something, not really thinking it could become a reality.

Ìý

White

As you say it’s one thing to have a dream, how did you actually turn it into a reality?

Ìý

Gabriel

I can’t quite believe I have, Peter, I can’t quite believe that this day has actually happened.Ìý But in 2015, it was the fifth anniversary of the rescue and I heard a broadcast by Gideon Long, the ´óÏó´«Ã½ reporter, who was based in Chile at the time and I thought – hey, I’ll contact him – just on the off chance.Ìý And I arranged to meet him, he was fortuitously in London on leave at the time and we met for a coffee and I said – Gideon, I’ve got this crazy idea, I want to meet these guys, what do you think?Ìý And he said – Yeah, I can put you in contact with Jemena, she’s a logistics person and a fixer in Chile, she’ll be the ideal person to help you.Ìý And then I was off, I was on my way.Ìý

Ìý

Jemena is the most extraordinary person and at the time I spoke no Spanish, like about three words, and I heard her on the phone to these guys, because we borrowed Gideon’s contacts book, and Jemena knew some of them herself anyway because she’d worked on the rescue herself and she just talked to these guys and she persuaded and cajoled.Ìý And I thought she’s a genius.Ìý And each one, who agreed to talk to her and let me go and take their picture, was just like… it was a moment of euphoria, honestly.

Ìý

White

And what was their attitude to your project?Ìý Did they understand what this lady from England was doing there?

Ìý

Gabriel

Well, I couldn’t really believe that because they were used to lots of people trying to contact them and get things from them and they’re very used to saying no and very used to people trying to sort of do them over and take advantage of them and do things that they then didn’t benefit from.Ìý And I think they just saw me as this slightly eccentric person.Ìý I had my little magnifier that I would use to check the settings of my camera because I use a manual camera, I didn’t make it easy for myself, let’s be honest, but I set my camera with my magnifier and checked the levels and everything and they just accepted it.Ìý And I think they did look at me slightly oddly but they did accept that I was… they could tell I was quite emotional with them because I hadn’t got anything else to offer other than my emotion and they could tell that I really did genuinely want to do something for them.

Ìý

White

And as you say they’d been used to being photographed by all these people, journalists a lot of them, what were you trying to do with your photographs that you thought hadn’t been done before?

Ìý

Gabriel

I wanted my photos to be the pictures that the world had never seen of them before, so I didn’t want the normal media type of pictures with their sunglasses on and their helmets and hard hats and dirt, I wanted them to be as they are now, living their lives, hopefully, quite healthily most of them, not all of them are in such good health but showing them alive and well and now.Ìý And that’s what I’ve achieved, I hope.

Ìý

White

Just explain what are the challenges of this kind of project for someone with a visual impairment.

Ìý

Gabriel

Where do I start?Ìý Where do I start?Ìý Obviously, Pete, the journey itself – the travelling to Chile – I mean it was quite bizarre, the first time I got on a plane, I have to be honest, I thought – what am I doing – because I was going to a country, I didn’t speak the language, I was going to meet a woman I’d never met before in my life, I was carrying all my photo equipment with me and what am I doing – to meet men we might not even meet?Ìý It was an adventure, it has been an adventure of my life actually.Ìý The way people responded to me and using my magnifier was indifference, people just accept the fact that I can’t see and I use this little gadget, nobody else really takes any notice or asks me about it.Ìý They’re very inclusive actually, they just take it for granted and just include you in whatever is going on.Ìý But there’s no… they don’t make you feel odd.Ìý I’ve been made to feel worse in England than I have over here about being visually impaired or more uncomfortable, should I say.

Ìý

White

How’s the book being greeted?

Ìý

Gabriel

Well, it’s a kind of… that was one of your questions was what did I want to achieve from the pictures, I wanted to actually give the men a keepsake that they would hopefully love and be able to keep in their families.Ìý So, it’s a sort of a limited-edition book, we’re not going to sell it, it’s far too complicated to deal with money and the miners are not doing that, so it’s a gift to them.Ìý And they loved it.Ìý I mean I’m really, really thrilled that I could see in their faces that they did really appreciate it actually and that made me very happy that I could keep my word to them and keep my promise – I said I’d come back with a book – although it’s taken eight years, I have achieved that now and I’m chuffed actually.

Ìý

White

This last question is one I should probably have warned you about but you know what I’m like.Ìý Is there a moment in this whole saga which stands out for you?

Ìý

Gabriel

I couldn’t really pick out one thing but I do remember being so overwhelmed that one of the miners – Claudio Acuna – met us first thing in the morning when the sun was coming out and his photograph was being taken with a huge long shadow behind him against the hills of the Atacama.Ìý He told us that he had travelled the whole night in a bus to get here, to be photographed and I was really touched and moved by that, actually, just that he would do that.Ìý He didn’t know me from Adam, he didn’t know really what the project was about, I don’t think any of us knew what would happen and whether we’d be able to achieve this.Ìý Also, another brother, Renan Avalos, who was the brother of Florencio Avalos, he travelled as well, similarly, in another night bus to be with his brother at the house and then I have an amazing photograph, which I think is quite unique, of both brothers together and they’re not often together.Ìý So, that was pretty special for me as well.

Ìý

White

Cheryl, it’s a brilliant story.Ìý Now we’ve found you again, don’t leave it another six years, I think, is all I can say.

Ìý

Gabriel

Ah, it’s been a great pleasure and a thrill actually to be back on the programme, I have to be honest.Ìý Thanks Pete.

Ìý

White

Okay.Ìý Well, that’s it for today.Ìý I can’t follow that, so I won’t.Ìý From me, Peter White, producer Fern Lulham and studio managers Simon Highfield and Amy Brennan and Cheryl, goodbye.

Ìý

Gabriel

Goodbye everyone.

Ìý