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Public astronomer Dr Marek Kukula, of the Royal Observatory Greenwich, told John about the new discovery of a huge and ancient black hole.

He said it has grown faster than current physics would suggest possible, in the early development of the universe.

John Humphrys was surprised by the information from Dr Kukula that the black hole "is smaller than an atom" but "contains as much material as 12 thousand million [12 billion] stars, like the sun". "Oh lord, how can that be?!" John replied.

They go on to discuss subjects including the beginning of the universe.