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Letting go of control and of being obsessive to find peace of mind with Jonny Wilkinson. Jonny was the golden boy in what was England’s greatest ever rugby team, the 2003 World Cup Champions. Jonny of course kicked the winning drop goal in that final against Australia, and he relives the moment in this episode of DTMTS revealing he basically had something akin to an out of body experience as it happened. The theme of this conversation is ‘obsession', as Jonny admits to being an obsessive character, although thankfully he has learnt to channel that streak and not be ruled by it. In this episode Simon and Jonny talk about the idea of pressure, and Jonny explains how it is essentially created by the thought ‘what if this goes wrong’, and not by external factors as we tend to believe. Jonny also talks about the emptiness he felt after having won the World Cup, and what that reveals about our false belief that happiness is something that will happen at some time in the future, once we finally get what we want. He talks about the lows he experienced during his injury hit years between the 2003 and 2007 world cups, and how that came from the stress he put himself under physically and mentally, and how he found peace by letting go of trying to control everything. They also discuss a shared passion for fermenting drinks, like kefir and kombucha.