大象传媒

Presented by Simon Minty and Beth Rose

听

simon -

Hello, and welcome to Cabin Fever. If ever there was a time we felt like we were living through a film now is it. And I bet you鈥檙e watching even more TV than ever before. This week we鈥檝e got quite a treat for you in the form of an award winning screen writer who鈥檚 already shaping the likes of 鈥楨astEnders鈥� and Beth鈥檚 favourite, 鈥楥asualty鈥�. I鈥檓 Simon Minty. I have hearing loss but I鈥檓 not proper deaf, and also I鈥檓 short; I have a form of dwarfism.

beth -

Hi, I鈥檓 Beth Rose. I鈥檓 non disabled, I鈥檓 the token on this podcast, and I鈥檓 recording this in my living room in West London. Also, happy birthday, Mr Minty.

SIMON -

Thank you very much. I am here in the same place I was on my birthday four days ago, in a little office area in front of the computer screen. I did more quizzes on my birthday. Our guest today is Charlie Swinbourne. We鈥檙e a bit low on staff and budget, could you introduce yourself? That would be really helpful.

CHARLIE -

Hi, I鈥檓 Charlie Swinbourne and I鈥檓 a screenwriter, director and a journalist. I鈥檓 the editor of 鈥楲imping Chicken鈥� and I鈥檓 all the way up in Yorkshire in a village with lots of countryside around. And it鈥檚 very nice to speak to you.

BETH -

That sounds really nice, but before we get any further why is the blog called the 鈥楲imping Chicken鈥�?

CHARLIE -

It鈥檚 a really long story, and I get asked that question so often that I really wish eight years ago I鈥檇 chosen a different name for it. It was to do with a 大象传媒 Three documentary about a deaf girl who was going to her first day at university and her notetaker left halfway through her first lecture because her chicken had a bad leg. Deaf people all over social media, they put loads of memes out, and at the same time I was about to start this website and I wanted to give it a name that wasn鈥檛 too dry, I wanted to give it a memorable name. But of course now I鈥檝e got to live with the consequences of my decision.

BETH -

You know what, it鈥檚 a bit like 大象传媒 Ouch, it鈥檚 a bit Marmite. People are always like, why is it called that?

CHARLIE -

Yeah, it鈥檚 memorable, and I think people do sort of like the name.

SIMON -

I think that bit of not having deafness in the title, I can see that, because you might get the casual reader. A bit more detail. So fans of access detail, we鈥檙e using a video link to speak with Charlie today because Charlie uses sign language which I can鈥檛 do but he will do lip reading as well. What has self-isolation been like for you?

CHARLIE -

One thing I鈥檝e noticed is that if I鈥檓 walking around the village with my dog then it鈥檚 a bit harder to hear the people that do talk to you because occasionally people will say hello and just that two meters distance I鈥檓 really struggling to pick up sort of anything. You know, this is the deaf life, you sort of guess what people have said, but I do think overall from a deaf perspective there鈥檚 something interesting about the fact that we are often socially distanced. And things like right now people can鈥檛 go to the cinema, they can鈥檛 go to the theatre, so in a strange way hearing people that I know, I鈥檝e sometimes got the sense that they鈥檙e understanding a bit of maybe what the deaf or disabled experience is like.

BETH -

How is the two meter rule and facemasks impacting? Because if you lip read, I mean that must just really cut everything out.

CHARLIE -

Absolutely. I do use the hearing that I鈥檝e got. Because I鈥檓 partially deaf I wear hearing aids, but I certainly depend on lip reading, and that鈥檚 a worry that I have if I had to go into intensive care, or even to go to the hospital for any reason and people were wearing masks. And there has been talk of clear masks. People have been developing masks that you could still see the lips through, which I really hope they鈥檙e still to come about, but it鈥檚 a really big issue.

simon -

When I first saw those clear masks I didn鈥檛 look properly and I thought someone had just cut out that bit. And then I thought well what鈥檚 the point of that? I hadn鈥檛 realised there was clear plastic around the lips. I love this. Are there new sign language terms for different bits of Covid? Have some been developed?

CHARLIE -

Absolutely, yeah. The sign for Coronavirus, it kind of looks a bit spiky. Your fingers are spread out and they go round your other hand. Often many signs are quite descriptive, and it鈥檚 amazing how you find this new sign that you鈥檝e never seen before and suddenly you鈥檙e seeing that sign all the time.

BETH -

With something like a global pandemic does the sign become international? So rather than having British Sign Language, American Sign Language, does it just develop on Facebook or something so everyone is using the same sign?

CHARLIE -

I think it鈥檚 quite likely that other countries are using the same sign, because often that does happen.

SIMON -

On a more general level, Charlie, how is the deaf community getting on? What are rumblings and how is lockdown affecting them?

CHARLIE -

I think it鈥檚 a bit like the wider world really where some people are enjoying aspects of lockdown, while also coping with the negative side of it. I know people who feel like they鈥檙e busier socially than they鈥檝e ever been, and because deaf people are obviously spread out throughout the country and all of a sudden everybody鈥檚 congregating on Zoom - I鈥檝e been to a surprise birthday party on Zoom - and you see all these familiar faces that you鈥檝e known for years but you鈥檝e never really had 20 people on a Zoom conversation.

And the funny bit is when you鈥檙e signing with people on it and it鈥檚 in gallery view, so you鈥檝e just got all the boxes on the screen and people try and talk to you but you鈥檙e not sure if they are trying to talk to you because they鈥檙e kind of waving at you and multiple boxes are having one conversation but then suddenly it鈥檒l widen out into a group thing where maybe one person鈥檚 mainly talking and everyone鈥檚 listening to them. I guess on a normal Zoom chat there鈥檇 be one person speaking at any one time but there is that possibility when you鈥檙e signing of having these multiple conversations.

simon -

And also a lot of the video chats, whoever is speaking is highlighted to show but if there鈥檚 no noise then no one鈥檚 specifically highlighted.

CHARLIE -

Yes, so what鈥檚 quite funny is because there鈥檚 no one speaking suddenly the box gets highlighted when the dog barks or the kettle鈥檚 boiling. So the positive side is there鈥檚 a lot of interaction where people do feel like they鈥檙e maybe interacting even more than usual in some cases and so some of the isolation might even be less than normal in that sense.

But I think on the negative side, when you think about deaf people around the country who maybe at work they鈥檙e with hearing people, they鈥檙e going to a deaf club or meeting up with deaf friends in person, that does have a big effect on deaf people as well, because signing on a screen in 2D is not really the same thing. When you鈥檙e really with deaf people you鈥檙e really aware of their facial expressions, their physicality. So that鈥檚 all kind of gone and I certainly know deaf people who are very, very social who are finding it very difficult.

SIMON -

And whether you鈥檙e hearing or deaf, you鈥檙e right, there鈥檚 all those subtle things that are important to the communication. It鈥檚 taken me about three or four weeks to realise it, and why I鈥檓 so exhausted from doing video calls. You allude to it, we know there鈥檚 discontent within the deaf community that the daily government briefings that we鈥檝e all seen at five pm, they鈥檙e carried live on TV for the whole nation, but they don鈥檛 use sign language interpreters. So what is that about?

CHARLIE -

Yes, so this is a really big concern for deaf people about the lack of interpreters being beside government minsters in England during those daily briefings. And I say in England, because in Scotland there has been an interpreter next to Nicola Sturgeon, for example, or other Scottish politicians or officials. And in many other countries you see sign language interpreters next to their leading figures. And so deaf people who are at home, you don鈥檛 have that English level because sign language is their first language. They have access to the full information, which is really critical information that we鈥檙e getting.

So in the beginning with the government briefings there was no interpreter at all, then a campaign began and a deaf woman called Lynn Stewart-Taylor, she was campaigning on this with a hashtag called #WhereAreTheInterpreters, and she really got everybody galvanised, people were sending out tweets asking their MP, asking why were they being excluded from this communication. So by the end of the week there has been an interpreter who鈥檚 been on the 大象传媒 News Channel, but that interpreter鈥檚 been added by the 大象传媒, so when these broadcasts are then repeated, or even when they鈥檙e shown on 大象传媒 One for example there isn鈥檛 an interpreter there. So it depends on people having to find it, and none of that鈥檚 idea.

SIMON -

Could you not go and get a newspaper? Or there鈥檚 plenty of other ways. Is that not okay?

CHARLIE -

This is something that comes back a lot when you make these kind of arguments which I鈥檝e spent a lot of my career dealing with, which is that deaf people who use sign language as their first language who often have faced many educational barriers, their English level in many cases is lower than the typical person. But ultimately they wouldn鈥檛 pick up a newspaper and get the same amount of information. They could try and read it but there are deaf people who don鈥檛 have that level of English.

So sign language is their first language, it鈥檚 the language that they use in all their communications. So when they go to the doctor for example or they need sign language interpretation, when they engage with any situation where they need really precise information, full understanding of it, they will need a sign language interpreter. And it鈥檚 for those people that the interpreter is needed.

And so this is the discussion that you have so often with people who just say, 鈥淲ell, can鈥檛 they watch the subtitles?鈥� But if your comprehension of English is lower then you鈥檙e not going to get all the information. And additionally, when you look at live subtitles on these broadcasts they鈥檙e verbatim which means it鈥檚 not really being done to be read, and additionally those live subtitles have many mistakes.

SIMON -

I now want to do a bit of the what about-ery. So what about people who need something in a different format because it鈥檚 hard to understand? What about the others?

CHARLIE -

Well, I think there is a point that you would ideally have everybody in our society having access to this really, really important information. I think the difference with deaf people is they are deaf so they do not have access to spoken language. You know, you might have people from other countries where some people would make the argument, well those people could read the information in their own language. I mean I would say that everybody鈥檚 important, I don鈥檛 want to marginalise anybody. From a deaf perspective you鈥檝e got deaf people who through no choice of their own do not have access to that information, and I think that is where there is a little bit of a distinction to be made.

SIMON -

Is it partly that sign language, the structure, is completely different from written language? I read somewhere about you鈥檙e only getting emergency information in French and you only speak English. Is there a correlation?

CHARLIE -

With sign language being a distinct language of its own it doesn鈥檛 follow the rules of English. I suppose a way of describing it might be that it鈥檚 visually led, so if you were to try and write down words in sign language in English and follow that order it often wouldn鈥檛 really make much sense. But in the visual language, BSL, as we see it, it makes perfect sense and it鈥檚 described very richly. But initially those certain words in English just aren鈥檛 in the sign language, they鈥檙e just not needed.

I suppose that is a good way of understanding it, is if somebody was very, very skilled in French, that was their first language, and they knew a small amount of English would they then be able to access all this information fully? Well no they wouldn鈥檛, because they would need it in French then to fully understand your obligations as a member of our society at this time you do really need that information in the language that you understand.

SIMON -

Beth, you鈥檙e spoken to the legal team about this case, so what are the details?

BETH -

I have. Well, what started as a hashtag,

#WhereAreTheInterpreters, has actually morphed into a legal campaign. So it鈥檚 quite involved so I shall go through it. From that hashtag that has morphed into a crowdfunding project to raise money for legal action. The firm Fry Law, which specialises in disability cases, has taken it on and they are taking a two-prong approach to this, because they believe it鈥檚 so important.

So, Fry Law is arguing that the lack of interpreters breaches The Equality Act, and that鈥檚 there to protect people听from discrimination, harassment and victimisation.听Specifically, they鈥檙e arguing the government has failed to carry out any sort of equality assessment when they were planning these daily briefings and therefore they鈥檙e discriminating against anyone who is deaf.

听

As is said, there are two approaches. Approach 1: The team has applied for a judicial review. That鈥檚 where听a judge听considers the lawfulness of a decision or action made by a public body, rather than the rights and wrongs of what that decision was.

听

So, so far that legal team has听asked the government to provide them with two documents: the Equality Assessment showing they considered all access needs when they were planning the briefings, and a formal agreement between No. 10 and the 大象传媒. And as Charlie said, the 大象传媒 News Channel is providing interpreters for the press conferences. Fry Law want that document because they want to know the government sought an agreement and that it will remain in place for the duration of these briefings.

听

However, the judicial review relies on the 拢15,000 crowdfunding being secured within the next few days as they need the money in the bank in case they lose the case and then have to pay the government鈥檚 legal fees.

听

If the money isn鈥檛 secured, Fry Law is then going to move on to their second approach, and that鈥檚 to file for individual damages, which basically seeks compensation for a lack of service on a case-by-case basis. And one of those cases is that of someone who鈥檚 become known as AK. Now he is 85, lives alone and has no internet access, so he only found out about the lockdown when his daughter was able to sign that information to him.

听

So that鈥檚 the legal side. The government obviously has its own thoughts on this, and I actually phoned No.10 yesterday, the first time in my entire career, and this is the response I got:

听

听"It is vital that public health information reaches everyone across the country. We have established British Sign Language interpretation at the daily No. 10 press conference via the 大象传媒 News Channel and iPlayer, available on all TV packages as part of Freeview, and we are working to ensure greater replication of this signed interpretation across a wider range of media channels.鈥�

听

So it鈥檚 all very technical. But on a broader level, Charlie, if a signer is on the 大象传媒 News Channel is that not good enough鈥�?

charlie -

I don鈥檛 think it is good enough because you then have this footage being repeated on various news clips through the day, where those key phrases are being sent out and there isn鈥檛 an interpreter next to this minister who鈥檚 speaking at that time. In other countries what you see, and I think this is best practice, is actually having an interpreter within the shot. And you can still do that with the social distancing.

And in that case every time that footage is repeated you see the interpreter and deaf people will get that information. What you鈥檙e doing is you鈥檙e depending on people, not only watching the 大象传媒, but watching the 大象传媒 News Channel at that point to get that information, whereas I think the way you should do it is make it accessible whenever that footage is seen across all these different networks and programmes.

BETH -

I think one of the other arguments is it should be the government perhaps that provides this service and not a third party, i.e. the broadcaster and 大象传媒. So I think that鈥檚 one of the crucial elements of where they feel The Equality Act has been breached.

CHARLIE -

Yeah, I think that鈥檚 a really big part of this. I mean, these briefings began with no interpretation at all. It was only after the campaign began that then by the end of the week 大象传媒 News started putting the interpreter on themselves. So the government hadn鈥檛 given this any thought, and what you鈥檙e in is, you know, a completely critical situation where people are being told to restrict their lives in a way they鈥檝e never been restricted before. And when people are left out in this situation they鈥檙e at greater risk because they鈥檙e potentially being unaware of what their obligation to respect social distancing is.

SIMON -

I read a piece a little while ago where they were saying, 鈥淕ive us the right information then us, as deaf and disabled people, we can be part of the solution.鈥� Without that you are not only isolated but you can鈥檛 get involved in the national effort as well.

CHARLIE -

Absolutely. I think what we really want is for deaf people to be part of society, to be part of the community. Amazingly we鈥檝e got these deaf individuals like Lynn Stewart-Taylor and they鈥檝e taken action to help the community at this time. So it鈥檚 not only this hashtag, Lynn鈥檚 set up several Facebook groups offering the right kind of advice for people so that people aren鈥檛 relying on just general videos on Facebook, which sometimes have misinformation in them.

SIMON -

Let鈥檚 move on from politics and Limping Chickens. Charlie, you鈥檝e been developing a career in writing for film and for television.

CHARLIE -

Yes, so alongside my journalism, for the last ten years, 12 years or so I鈥檝e been writing scripts and trying to tell stories, often with deaf people in them. That鈥檚 been something I鈥檝e been really, really passionate about. It began with a short film I made called 鈥楥oming Out鈥� which is on YouTube about a deaf boy trying to persuade his mother that he鈥檚 deaf because his mother鈥檚 in denial.

And it sort of took off really and since then I鈥檝e developed into writing kind of half hour dramas. I鈥檝e made a sketch show called 鈥楧eaf Funny鈥� which I won an RTS Yorkshire Writer Award for, which was something I never expected. And probably just in the last year or so I鈥檝e been able to move into the mainstream a bit more and start telling some of my stories for some of the 大象传媒鈥檚 programmes, which has been an incredible experience.

BETH -

Because you were in the first ever Writers Access Group weren鈥檛 you which is part of the Writers Room which the 大象传媒 has which supports screenwriters. So tell us a bit more about them.

CHARLIE -

A group of deaf and disabled writers who, we all had to interview to get our place on the Writers Access group, and then from probably the autumn of 2018 all of us were meeting once a month and we鈥檇 meet different people from the 大象传媒 who鈥檇 give us a talk about what they did. So 大象传媒 Radio, Children鈥檚 大象传媒, Continuing Dramas, and it was amazing, because I think, certainly for me on a personal level I was making a lot of stuff for deaf people and probably working in a section of the community which is a little bit cut off from the wider film making or TV making. So when I met all these people it started to feel a bit like oh, they鈥檙e real, normal people who you could talk to and you could email, and it made it all feel a lot more accessible.

But also at these groups every month, so for me I would have a palantypist who was typing everything up so I could follow it. But there were other people with different access needs, so all our access needs were completely looked after. And then as time went on I made contact and gradually sending out these scripts then opportunities started to come up. And I was also very lucky to be mentored by 鈥楨astEnders鈥� Executive Producer, Jon Sen, who was very supportive and I was then able to go to a story conference for that and end up pitching my own story which they took. So that was like an incredible thing.

SIMON -

What鈥檚 that story?

CHARLIE -

So the story is obviously of the moment and it鈥檚 a story about Ben Mitchell becoming more deaf, because Ben Mitchell was born deaf so he鈥檚 deaf in one ear but he then loses more of his hearing. And the aim of my story was to bring in a deaf character to the square. So I pitched my story to about 30 writers in the room, a very nervous sort of experience. I look back and I still think, god, how did I do that? But I told them the story and I was then asked lots of very interesting questions, you know, 鈥淲ell what about this?鈥� and, 鈥淗ow would that work?鈥� and then they decided they would do the story. So for the last sort of six months or so I鈥檝e been in touch with them, I鈥檝e read storylines, given feedback and scripts in some cases. So I鈥檝e been involved in that way.

SIMON -

I watch it from time to time and I have seen it, it鈥檚 really visible, and also they play with the sound, they artificially make it muffled and different. Was that part of the deal for people to really understand what was happening?

CHARLIE -

Absolutely. So from the beginning I wanted to give the audience a sense of how deafness can affect people, but then also coming into it we have a deaf character who has always been deaf. So the character of Frankie will be played by a deaf actress called Rose Ayling-Ellis and I think Frankie will introduce Ben to a different side of deafness, a different perspective on deafness. So I think we鈥檙e hoping to tell different sides of the deaf story.

simon -

But that鈥檚 very smart, because typically if someone becomes disabled the narrative was the tragedy, the woe, the difficulty, the fury and we always said, yeah, but once you鈥檝e had it for a while you adjust. So you鈥檙e bringing in the character who鈥檚 already living with it and can show that there is life after becoming disabled or becoming deaf.

CHARLIE -

That鈥檚 right. I think that鈥檚 really important because deaf people experience deafness in very different ways, and I certainly grew up in a deaf family and my parents were always proud of their deaf identity. They were very positive and happy to be deaf, as I am. And so I do think it鈥檚 really important to give that side of it.

I think the team have been incredibly supportive. And I should also say that what I pitched was two or three pages of story which then it changes a bit, there鈥檚 a lot added onto it, it becomes a story told over weeks and months.

BETH -

And as we said at the beginning you鈥檙e also writing for 鈥楥asualty鈥� which is my particular favourite. So what stories have you got going on there?

CHARLIE -

Myself and another writer on the 大象传媒 Writers Scheme, Sophie Wooley, we met somebody who at the time worked at 鈥楧octors鈥� who then moved to 鈥楥asualty鈥� and she said to us, 鈥淲ould you like to come and talk about a deaf character we鈥檝e got? The nurse, Jade.鈥� So we went for the day down in Cardiff and talked about all these deaf stories and all of Jade鈥檚 sort of history as a character and we developed a story which then we were commissioned to write together.

So we wrote this episode, and actually what鈥檚 really special about it is it鈥檚 very much from Jade鈥檚 perspective. So we really do get into Jade鈥檚 mind and we hear the world at times as she hears it, and it has some sign language in it, it has some really emotional moments, and I think you鈥檒l be pleased to know it also has quite a big stunt. And I should also add that as well as having two deaf writers there is a deaf director called John Maidens who directed the episodes. And it also stars another deaf actor called Sophie Stone. So you鈥檝e got an episode with five key deaf people involved in making it, which is a deaf episode, and I think that鈥檚 hopefully a really strong message for the industry.

BETH -

How does it work? As we were saying earlier, sign language as a language is very different to English. The structure, the grammar. So for you what鈥檚 it like when your career is based on dialogue, and writing dialogue, in English?

CHARLIE -

That鈥檚 a really good question because I鈥檝e spent many years writing dramas, comedies for deaf characters, and often when I鈥檓 writing their dialogue I鈥檓 writing it in a very clear way in English because it will then be translated into sign language. So when I wrote my 鈥楥asualty鈥� episode along with Sophie one of the things that I really enjoyed but also had to learn about was writing more spoken dialogue for the first time. But I also had to slightly adjust to it, because deaf communication鈥檚 often quite direct so I found that some of my early writing, maybe I was writing it a little bit too obviously so I was then able to write these spoken dialogue scenes and I really, really enjoyed it.

SIMON -

I would bet that you will have your own series or drama or something soon and everyone will go, well Charlie, he鈥檚 an overnight success. But you have worked so hard for so long. But in terms of today and lockdown are you really disciplined?

CHARLIE -

Thank you so much for your kind words, Simon. Yes, it鈥檚 a big change at the moment. I guess early in my career I knew people who maybe had certain conditions actually that almost gave them like a ticking clock and they had to get on and do stuff while they were still well enough. I guess I really admired those kind of people, but I did kind of take something from that a bit which I just think you do have to try and make things happen.

As I鈥檝e worked I鈥檝e always thought well, what鈥檚 the next thing I can try and make, and hit my deadlines? I think that鈥檚 a huge thing. But probably the first couple of weeks of lockdown were two of the hardest weeks of writing I鈥檝e even done because my kids were at home and I was feeling so wrapped up in the news I found it so hard to think about my story because my story also just felt really irrelevant that I feel like as a family my family adjusted a bit, my kids got into the routine. The main thing that I鈥檝e done at the moment to make it work is I鈥檝e just been waking up super early, half five, six o鈥檆lock, and I鈥檝e done two or three hours of writing before the kids have really got out of bed. And the rest of the day doesn鈥檛 feel as stressful.

BETH -

Lockdown is maybe prime time for people who have maybe wondered about giving writing a go. They鈥檙e kind of at home, they haven鈥檛 got a commute maybe, they can sort of start thinking, there鈥檚 plenty of things going on to spark a story, so what are your top tips to any aspiring writers?

CHARLIE -

My main tip is always if you can do some writing, however much it is, it could be half an hour, it could be an hour, just get something on the page, because when you鈥檝e got something you can then think about the bits you weren鈥檛 sure about or the bits you don鈥檛 yet have or you can just improve the thing that you鈥檝e written. In a way the process of writing, of writing more and then editing it and then adding to it and changing it, you find a lot of the answers of how to tell your story through that process.

Sometimes you just throw away what you鈥檝e done and it鈥檚 heart-breaking but it鈥檚 only by actually getting on with it that you can then start to progress. And don鈥檛 be afraid to look for the opportunities that are out there for disabled writers, because Graeae have been running a monologue scheme. DANC, the Disabled Artists Network and Community, they鈥檝e been running webinars.

SIMON -

Beth, why do I think鈥�? We鈥檝e spoken offline and you have鈥� You鈥檙e writing something aren鈥檛 you?

BETH -

I am. I mean this is the first public outing of it, only a few people knew. It鈥檚 not a screenplay. I鈥檓 trying to write a classic novel. And I don鈥檛 mean classic in terms of classic literature, I mean just like writing a novel. And yeah, I think Charlie鈥檚 right, it鈥檚 just literally doing the writing, even if it鈥檚 a few minutes. And sometimes what I鈥檝e found is if I just give myself five minutes and once you鈥檝e started the five minutes you kind of get into the flow and you鈥檙e back into the story. But another way that really gets me motivated is you know you get all these inspirational quotes on Instagram? My favourite ever is 鈥榶ou think you have time but you don鈥檛鈥�.

SIMON -

Yeah. Well you鈥檙e giving me a shiver with that because it does kind of put it in perspective.

CHARLIE -

Writing鈥檚 hard work, it鈥檚 like anything else. It鈥檚 all a journey and if you were trying to become skilled at anything you would have to just work up towards it. and I think even the most experienced writers that I鈥檝e met, they never seem to feel like they know everything. I think you have to give it a try and going for it and enjoying it for what it is.

SIMON -

I think we have to wrap up this podcast so we can all go and get writing the great British screenplay. Thank you to Charlie Swinbourne and to Beth for coming on board this episode of Cabin Fever. Don鈥檛 forget to check out 鈥楾he Isolation Diary鈥�, it鈥檚 another Ouch original podcast which follows my regular co-host, Kate Monaghan, on her self-isolation journey with her young family. And I still can鈥檛 believe Ouch split us up. If that鈥檚 not enough for you, 大象传媒 Sounds has a huge back catalogue of content for you to check out. Keep in touch, tell us what we should be covering, how we鈥檙e doing. You can get hold of us. It鈥檚 大象传媒 Ouch on Facebook. @bbcouch on Twitter and ouch@bbc.co.uk. Until next time, bye.

BETH -

Bye.

CHARLIE -

Bye.

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