大象传媒

This is the full transcript of Ouch 鈥� Mentally Interesting the cabin fever podcast as broadcast on February 10 2021, and presented by Mark Brown and Seaneen Molloy.

This is one of our new Mentally Interesting Podcasts, which we hope you鈥檒l come to know and love.

Just a note that suicide and previous self harm do get mentioned in this episode within conversations about shame, having a baby in a pandemic and how to tell your new partner about your mental health.

We know it鈥檚 helpful for some of you to have prior notice of these subjects. So now that you know it鈥檚 over to the brilliant Seaneen and Mark.

[Music]
听
MARK - This is Mentally Interesting, a podcast series from 大象传媒 Ouch. I鈥檓 Mark Brown.

听
SEANEEN - And I鈥檓 Seaneen Malloy. We鈥檙e long term friends, we鈥檝e got years and years of personal and professional experience of being mentally interesting and living with mental health difficulties, and we鈥檙e talking about all the awkward stuff so you don鈥檛 have to.

听
MARK - And my gosh, is there a lot of awkward stuff to talk about? Each episode of Mentally Interesting has a broad theme. This one deals with the massive, painful, gloopy, dark, but ultimately uplifting subject of shame.

听
SEANEEN - If you want to talk about shame, or any other awkward topic, ouch@bbc.co.uk is the email address to get in touch, and we鈥檙e also on Twitter and Facebook at 大象传媒 Ouch.

听
[Music]
听
MARK - So, how are you doing this episode, Seaneen? Listeners who listened to our last episode will know that Seaneen is going through a life change.

听
SEANEEN - Literally. [Laughs] I鈥檓 having my second baby in two days. And I鈥檓 getting my COVID test today. And I have this weird feeling like I鈥檓 about to sit an exam and I鈥檓 going to fail it. I鈥檝e no idea where I would have got COVID from, but I have a feeling that I must have it. So I鈥檓 a bit nervous. There鈥檚 kind of nothing more shaming than being a new mum, especially one with a mental illness. Everyone really likes to stick their oar in and tell you how you鈥檙e doing everything wrong and鈥�

听
So I鈥檝e got bipolar disorder, which is kind of super risky when you鈥檙e pregnant, it鈥檚 one of the trickiest times, and it鈥檒l be okay, partly because I鈥檝e been on a new medication, an antipsychotic, which has really annoyed me by being helpful. [Laughs] I was so angry to be put on it. I鈥檓 like, I can control my mind like Yoda, but apparently I can鈥檛. And I鈥檝e basically not been sleeping for about three months, and if I hadn鈥檛 had that medication I think I would have gone mental by now. It鈥檚 not fair, it鈥檚 not fair that they鈥檙e right sometimes.
听
I鈥檓 a bit nervous about it because over here in Northern Ireland the changes around labour haven鈥檛 come in, so my husband can stay with me for the grand old one hour, hurray, after I have my C-section. And I had a bit of a ropey experience last time when I was in the postnatal ward with my son. So I have, like, self-harm scars all over my arms, and they鈥檙e really old, like, they would basically be during the GCSEs, or not, as it seems in lockdown now. I was sitting on my bed in the postnatal ward and I had to stay in a few days, like I have to this time so they can keep an eye on me to make sure that I鈥檓 not, you know, going mental, and a midwife phoned the mental health team because I was sitting on the bed with self-harm scars that were really old.
听
They kind of burst into my room because no one told me that they鈥檇 been called. They came in and I was sat there kind of placidly reading my magazine and they were like, 鈥淥kay鈥︹�� But Robert, who鈥檚 my husband, was, like, absolutely furious. He was just, like, 鈥淲e鈥檝e been disturbed all the time. She鈥檚 here to try and get some rest for her mental health and all we鈥檙e getting is people bursting in. She hasn鈥檛 done anything wrong, she鈥檚 just tired.鈥� And I鈥檓 kind of frightened this time that I haven鈥檛 got anyone to stand up for me in case that happens again.
听
So I have to try and basically be a new mother who鈥檚 just had a baby in a pandemic, through an operation, being visited by the home treatment team, and not show any emotions whatsoever because I鈥檓 scared that if I do they鈥檙e going to judge me. And I think I鈥檓 already worried - again, shame - already worried about judgement because I can鈥檛 breastfeed on this medication. It鈥檚 not that it鈥檚, like, super sedating like quetiapine was, but it seems to have just done a number on it. And because of my mental health again, my husband has to do basically the majority of the care to begin with so I can get some sleep. So he hasn鈥檛 got boobs, so I just use a bottle. I鈥檓 pretty apprehensive about it but also yeah, I鈥檓 excited. By our next episode I will have another baby, which is very weird. I haven鈥檛 actually had any mental space to think about that yet.

听
MARK - Well, it鈥檚 quite a busy time, gestating a small human inside of you. It seems to be quite a common experience for a lot of people who are disabled, that experience of people thinking they鈥檙e looking after you but doing it without realising sometimes that you鈥檙e a person with feelings and desires and experiences and you鈥檝e not just something to be ticked off and looked after, you鈥檙e also a person as well. Because I think it鈥檚 really easy to do things that feel like they鈥檙e in someone else鈥檚 best interest while also making it feel terrible and ashamed for you intervening.

听
SEANEEN - That鈥檚 definitely a thing. 鈥淚t鈥檚 for your own good,鈥� is a real big thing when you have a disability. It鈥檚 just this paternalistic kind of attitude towards you. I mean, if that midwife had come in and spoken to me and said, 鈥淥h, I鈥檓 concerned about you,鈥� and I鈥檇 be, like, 鈥淥kay. Why?鈥� but then it would have been different, but it was the lack of consent, just like literally went over my head. I mean, I think that鈥檚 just it, that鈥檚 a universal experience with disability generally, whether you鈥檙e blind and someone grabs you by the arm and tries to move you around, or whether you鈥檙e in a wheelchair and someone pushes you out of the way, you know, just鈥� Yeah, it鈥檚 not good. Don鈥檛 do that, everyone who鈥檚 listening who hasn鈥檛 got any disability experience.

听
MARK - The thing with shame and kind of shaming behaviour is it doesn鈥檛 tell you that what you鈥檝e done is wrong, it tells you that you鈥檙e wrong. I imagine there鈥檚 still an overhang of centuries and centuries of the idea that people who experience mental health difficulties shouldn鈥檛 have children at all.

听
SEANEEN - Yeah.

听
MARK - So there鈥檚 a sense that you are a risk, not that you鈥檙e at risk, but somehow you are a risk, which must be awful.

听
SEANEEN - Yeah. No, that鈥檚 definitely true, and I think that was what really hurt in this experience, was because I wasn鈥檛 doing anything, it was that I was existing. I was sitting there as a new mother with self-harm scars on my arm and that was enough to be a risk.

听
[Jingle: Email us ouch@bbc.co.uk]

听
MARK - So, back to the main topic of this podcast, which is shame. What is shame? It鈥檚 a sense of having been wrong, of being the wrong thing, the wrong person. It鈥檚 like shame鈥檚 something that gets in your bones. When you feel guilty about something you can apologise. When you feel shameful about something you sometimes feel like there鈥檚 no way you can ever make up for it. I鈥檓 someone who would describe themselves as kind of dripping with shame, like, shame is my personal scent. Other people have Joop and CK One, I have Eau de Shame. [Laughs]

听
SEANEEN - You reek of it, Mark, you reek of shame. I can smell it from here.

听
MARK - I reek of shame, yes. So it鈥檚 my particular existential musk. And a lot of us who鈥檝e had kind of experiences in our childhood, in our past, where we鈥檝e not been in control of the things that happen to us, where things have happened to us, around us, that have involved us, that we鈥檝e not really been able to do anything about, a lot of us carry that sense of shame that somehow we could have made things turn out differently if we鈥檇 been a different person into adulthood.

听
So I kind of get that quite a lot. And it鈥檚 not a good feeling, it鈥檚 a really difficult feeling, and it鈥檚 something that goes kind of hand in hand with my own experiences of mental health difficulty sometimes. If I feel like I鈥檝e not been the best person in the world, or done the right things I鈥檓 a little bit like a dog who鈥檚 got up on the top shelf and eaten all the treats. Like, when I feel like I鈥檝e been caught I just kind of turn around, my tail disappears between my legs, and then I just face the wall in my dog bed for a couple of days feeling absolutely terrible.
听
SEANEEN - Oh, I want to hug little dog Mark.

听
MARK - Yeah, well it鈥檚 a massive dog Mark. You know, I鈥檓 6鈥� 3鈥� so it鈥檚 like, you know, it鈥檚 like one of those great big lurchers with matted hair and slobbering jaws. But I think, like, with mental health, we often don鈥檛 talk about shame because it鈥檚 so, so painful, and shame鈥檚 so, so tied up with who you are and what鈥檚 happened to you. And it鈥檚 my kind of feeling that any of us will do just about anything we can to escape from shame. And that鈥檚 sometimes what, you know, for me certainly in the past it鈥檚 put me in dangerous situations or unhappy situations where I鈥檝e been trying to please people around me in situations where I really shouldn鈥檛 have been trying to please those people at all. They were people who didn鈥檛 have my best interests at heart, and it was really, really painful and really, really difficult.

听
So kind of shame鈥檚 something that gets under your skin, and with mental health we often have that kind of feeling. I don鈥檛 know, maybe you don鈥檛 have this kind of feeling, Seaneen, but it鈥檚 the kind of feeling that somehow we鈥檙e the wrong person, we鈥檙e the thing that makes situations go weird. If we could have just got up one morning and no longer been mental then everything would have went swimmingly and we鈥檇 be carrying no sense of having ruined everything and made everything go wrong and awful.
听
I think for about the last decade, certainly in the UK, we鈥檝e had a massive push towards removing the stigma of mental health, and we鈥檝e looked at that often as being other people鈥檚 prejudices around mental health. You know, we鈥檝e looked at it as being what we need to do is make people aware of mental health difficulty and what it means for people and get them to stop being so judgemental. But I think a part of it has also been wanting to no longer feel ashamed of not being up to snuff?
听
SEANEEN - Hmm-hmm. Yeah, I think a lot of the kind of stigma work, I mean it has been good for the public to try and get people to talk more openly about it, but I鈥檓 not sure how effective it鈥檚 been in terms of our own kind of self-stigma and our shame about ourselves. And I think shame is probably one of the biggest things that kind of stops people from recovering. I mean, in my experience, it鈥檚 just my experience, the shame after an episode is what makes me depressed for the next nine months of the year. I鈥檝e done stuff. [Laughs] I鈥檝e done stuff when I haven鈥檛 been well, and some stuff that I can鈥檛 think about now but some stuff that when I think about it, it makes me laugh.

听
Like one of my old jobs, oh, I was starting to get quite high and I had this brilliant idea that what I was going to do was just cover my computer screen with post it notes. And then that just carried on and I started covering my face with post it notes. And then I just ran down the corridor into the director鈥檚 office and I danced with post it notes on my face, thinking that this was hilariously funny and very, very charming and that everyone would think that I was fantastic for this. On what planet was I on to think that that was a good idea?
听
MARK - I would have been charmed, because I love post it notes.

听
SEANEEN - Oh, thank you. That was something I can look back on and think that was quite funny, but obviously I did lose my job, as you would expect. So it had consequences and it鈥檚 those consequences are the things I find the hardest to deal with when I鈥檝e been ill. So when you鈥檝e been out drinking and you have a blackout and you check your phone and go, oh my God. And what鈥檚 worse? Having no messages or having a hundred? It鈥檚 like the worst beer fear in the universe and it lasts for, like, seven or eight months. And it鈥檚 also that you don鈥檛 remember some parts of it, at least in my case. My memory can be quite patchy if I鈥檝e been unwell. And you want to find that kind of trusted person and the message would be like, what did I do? Tell me what I did? But you鈥檙e so terrified of the answer that you can鈥檛, so you just go into yourself a bit.

听
MARK - For me, one of the things that feels very, very shameful, and it shouldn鈥檛 because I should have more compassion for myself, is the fluctuating nature of my own mental health as a chronic condition. I think a lot of our listeners who have similar experiences around their own experiences of disability, where something you could do last week and you were a shining golden god doing it, the next week you can鈥檛 even face.

听
SEANEEN - Yes.

听
MARK - What you can do is you can send a million emails in half an hour and get 30% of the entire world鈥檚 population to do something and then the next week you can鈥檛 even manage to change your underwear for three days. You鈥檙e trying to explain to someone, well, this is what happens, things change over time. Unfortunately I can鈥檛 promise you the consistency I would like. And, you know, I feel like that. For me, I kind of鈥� Like a certain world government kind of over promising and over delivering, even emotionally in personal relationships has been such a tough thing for me. Like not being able to be consistent for other people, that feels very, very shameful and difficult and challenging.

听
But I think with shame, shame is such a difficult thing to sit with, and it鈥檚 so close to the surface for those of us who鈥檝e kind of experienced traumas in the past as well. Because it鈥檚 almost part of your fight or flight response, your animal response to problems and challenges. It locks me down and it makes me unable to move forward with things. It鈥檚 really difficult and tough, and I see people in public life and in private life, accidently very often, giving shame to another person when there was another way forwards, which is to say whatever鈥檚 just happened or whatever the situation is or whatever you鈥檝e been doing and stuff is done, here鈥檚 how you could make reparations for these, how you could make things different going forwards. Let鈥檚 keep moving forwards. How does it feel for you when you feel a bit shameful?
听
SEANEEN - You see, I鈥檓 married to someone who has no shame. [Laughter]

听
MARK - I have met your husband and I would agree with that.

听
SEANEEN - Yeah. He has no shame. Honestly, that鈥檚 been one of the most kind of useful experiences I鈥檝e had. Sorry, Robert, to call you a useful experience.

听
MARK - He鈥檚 a lovely useful experience.

听
SEANEEN - A lovely useful experience. But he has no shame, and the antidote to the shame is to be shameless, it鈥檚 to have no shame, to be armoured against it. And I remember when we got together, like, my CPN, which means for people who don鈥檛 know, mental health terms, community psychiatric nurse, were just like, 鈥淗e鈥檚 really good for you because he wears you out鈥� and can take everything I do on the chin. And it鈥檚 actually been very helpful to be in a relationship with someone like that who has no shame, because it鈥檚 helped me cope with my own shame. Because he鈥檚 someone as well who appreciates people behaving in unusual ways. And even some of the things I鈥檝e done when I haven鈥檛 been very well have amused him greatly. [Laughter] It鈥檚 kind of helped me to see it in a different perspective that the bad thing about some of my behaviour when I haven鈥檛 been well has been the consequences.

听
But the emotional consequences are easier for me to cope with because I sort of use his perspective but also there鈥檚 this鈥� You were talking about self-compassion earlier, you know, I don鈥檛 like these kind of terms, but I鈥檓 going to use it anyway, but it鈥檚 a genuinely useful concept, self-compassion, which is talk to yourself like you are your own friend. And I have found that really helpful. If someone who you cared about and loved behaved in a way that was shameful - I鈥檓 doing air commas here - what would you say? Would you say, 鈥淥kay, so now you deserve to be cast out of public life forever into the fires of hell, ostracised, everything,鈥� or would you say that everyone in the entire world has behaved in a shameful way?
听
鈥淢aybe the way you鈥檝e behaved has been a bit different but it is not the end of the world, and you can get past it and it doesn鈥檛 mean that you鈥檙e a bad person.鈥� That鈥檚 the way that you would speak to someone that you cared about, and I think trying to exercise that similar compassion to yourself is one of the ways to move beyond it. It鈥檚 just what would a friend say to you or what would you say to someone if they were your friend?
听
MARK - I know what I do say to friends and it involves imagining a Victorian machine, a bit like a spinning wheel, mixed with an exercise bike, right? So you peddle the wheels, the back wheel turns, but there鈥檚 a load of shoes studded around this wheel at the back. And I would call that the bum kicking machine, being aware of not swearing on this podcast. I would say, 鈥淲hat you need to do is you need to get off the bum kicking machine. You are literally peddling really hard to escape from your own machine that kicks you up the bum with the things you鈥檝e gone. You don鈥檛 need to kick yourself twice for things that have happened. Like, if those things are hard they鈥檙e hard, you don鈥檛 need to perform in your own head the job of making them even harder for yourself.鈥� And I say that to other people, and I explain the bum kicking machine and I鈥檝e got diagrams and notes that show where the belt goes and the pulleys and stuff, but when it comes to myself I just kind of go, well you would say that wouldn鈥檛 you if you were trying to let yourself off the hook? And it鈥檚 horrible. And getting stuck in that loop鈥�

听
SEANEEN - Yes, you just end up with a sore bum, that鈥檚 all.

听
MARK - Which isn鈥檛 what you want. So I think about this a lot, what it would feel like to live beyond shame, and I always feel that you鈥檙e a little bit more confident and a bit more comfortable talking about some of the things that are very core to your experience of who you are and where you鈥檝e been. Do you think that is part of moving beyond feeling shameful?

听
SEANEEN - Yeah, I think so, I mean, there鈥檚 no way a few years ago I would have been able to talk this way about things, especially in my early 20s and stuff. I was basically like a ball of shame, it was my core personality trait basically. I think it鈥檚 why as well when I was younger that my experiences of鈥� I still have my illness and I still experience episodes, but the episodes of depression especially were ferocious, they were episodes of depression that led me into basically, you know, the end. And it was the shame that powered them. And I think as I鈥檝e gotten older and began to deal with my feelings of shame a bit more my episodes of depression have kind of lessened a little bit. Not the frequency but the ferocity, the sheer being sent to hell aspect of them has decreased a little bit. It鈥檚 hard to know whether that鈥檚 just because I鈥檝e started to frame it in a different way or because the consequences are less because my world鈥檚 a bit smaller these days, but I鈥檓 glad.

听
MARK - So am I. [Laughs]

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SEANEEN - It鈥檚 good enough to feel suicidally depressed all the time.

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MARK - Yes, it鈥檚 rubbish being younger.

听
SEANEEN - It is, it is, it is. I maintain it, right, as soon as you get into your 30s enjoy. Everyone who鈥檚 listening who鈥檚 in your 20s thinking things are terrible, maybe your early 30s things are also a bit terrible, but they do get better.

听
MARK - The same things happen but maybe they hurt less, or you kick your own bum less.

听
[[Music]
听
MARK - And now it鈥檚 time for the Book of Awkward Questions.

听
SEANEEN - [Thump] In my hands is a mysterious book. It鈥檚 so heavy I can hardly hold it. Thick and leather bound, corners tipped with brass, it smells of dust and secret places. On its deep red cover in faded gold leaf is the title, The Big Book of Awkward Questions. Handed down from generation to generation, only two copies of the Big Book of Awkward Questions are known to be in existence. I have one copy and Mark has the other. No one knows who compiled it or why, but in it are contained every single awkward question that has ever been asked about mental health. Each of its pages are covered in lines of tiny type, so small you have to squint to read it, and smudged with fingerprints. Each week we鈥檒l open the book and see what awkward question it suggests to us. What鈥檚 the awkward question today, Mark?

听
MARK - Well, I can feel the weight of this book and all of its terrible, terrible probing questions in my hands. So I鈥檓 opening it now. [Creaking] I鈥檓 running my finger down the lines of type and today鈥檚 question is: In a new relationship how do you tell someone that you鈥檙e absolutely mental? Is this a problem you鈥檝e had, Seaneen?

听
SEANEEN - I鈥檝e always gone with the show don鈥檛 tell kind of thing. [Laughter] It鈥檚 something that I鈥檝e had to think about in the past. It鈥檚 also something that I鈥檝e genuinely been asked by people. You know, the baby mentals, the little ones, who鈥檇 just got their badge. It鈥檚 tricky isn鈥檛 it, because I mean, when? I think that鈥檚 the big thing, is when do you tell them? You don鈥檛 want to start off having a beer and by, like, 鈥淗ey, by the way.鈥� And I think someone鈥檚 reaction to that says an awful lot as well. I mean, my kind of feeling about this is when you鈥檙e describing experiences of mental illness it鈥檚 more about how do those things affect you, and talking about if you鈥檙e experiencing something and just explaining that to someone.

听
For example, the person who has actually asked me this question in real life has got PTSD, and she experienced a flashback when she was with her new partner. And he was kind of scared. Her flashbacks involve sort of zoning out a bit, you know, a bit of association which means zoning out and getting a bit panicky, and he was kind of like, 鈥淥h God, what鈥檚 wrong? What鈥檚 happened?鈥� And that for her was the way to begin to talk about how she had experiences and how she sometimes would have flashbacks and what those looked like for her and how he could help. Or not. You know, which for her, she just wanted to be left alone for a few minutes. And that seemed to work in that relationship, it wasn鈥檛 like a scary diagnostic term, it was just something that happened to her, something she experienced and something that he could help with.
听
MARK - It sometimes feels like handing over the log book of a car when you鈥檝e just sold it, except I am the car.

听
SEANEEN - The service history. [Laughter]

听
MARK - Yeah. It鈥檚 okay, I鈥檝e had my MOT, my big end鈥檚 not knocking. It feels like sometimes it鈥檚 a bit of due diligence. But I think the question of how do you tell someone is kind of inherently linked to that sense of shame we were talking about earlier in the podcast, because it鈥檚 a little bit like coming out. It鈥檚 a little bit like saying to someone, 鈥淭his is kind of fundamental to me, it doesn鈥檛 define me but it is a big part of me.鈥�

听
SEANEEN - Yeah.

听
MARK - And if that鈥檚 going to be a problem for us then this probably isn鈥檛 going to work. Because people always think that their romantic partners won鈥檛 know what鈥檚 going on inside their head and won鈥檛 know that they experience mental health difficulty, they will know it鈥檚 just about whether they鈥檙e the right kind of person to be with when they know that. So I think in terms of broaching the subject, I remember I wrote a piece talking about my own experiences of hypermania because I have a diagnosis of bipolar 2. The bipolar strikes back!

听
SEANEEN - The return, yeah.

听
MARK - Which is a different condition from bipolar 1 and hypermania.

听
SEANEEN - For anyone who doesn鈥檛 know what we鈥檙e on about, there鈥檚 a couple of different types of bipolar. I鈥檓 bipolar 1, the original bipolar, and Mark is bipolar 2, bipolar the sequel.

听
MARK - Yeah.

听
SEANEEN - So bipolar 1, people have episodes of mania, so that is when you have loads of energy, you might be quite irritable. Quite irritable? Very. It鈥檚 generally like a more extreme version of the high side of bipolar disorder and it can lead to psychosis. And bipolar 2, I will let Mark explain.

听
MARK - Bipolar 2 is weird because it鈥檚 mainly depression with something called hypermania that happens every so often. And hypermania is like the foothills of mania. So I feel full of energy, full of ideas, I鈥檓 the world鈥檚 best talker. Unfortunately, I鈥檒l think I鈥檓 the world鈥檚 best dancer which I鈥檓 not, almost like the mirror of depression, but not necessarily losing touch as much with reality, just thinking you鈥檙e much better than reality and you will win at everything. So it causes similar challenges and problems. I wrote this piece explaining what it鈥檚 like to experience hypermania and to overestimate your own ability to deliver on things, but sometimes to be better at things than you would otherwise be, I was absolutely fine about it being published, I was absolutely worried about showing it to my partner, because I was like, this is really revealing for me. But then I was like, I鈥檝e just put鈥� You know, it鈥檚 gone up on a big website, people are going to have read that anyway, why is it harder to say to someone close to me that this is what my life鈥檚 like sometimes than it is to speak to a whole range of people I will never meet and who I don鈥檛 drink cups of tea with in bed? Like, why should that be easier?

听
SEANEEN - That鈥檚 really weird, because as you were saying that I was thinking I鈥檓 exactly the same. Like I鈥檝e written a lot about some fairly, talking about shame, shameful experiences, but also difficult feelings or things I鈥檝e done or just general mental-ness. And I actually feel really uncomfortable with Robert reading it, even though he lives with me and stuff. I don鈥檛 know why either. I think because when you鈥檙e writing something so public for a different audience which is for everyone you have to an extent sort of reduce yourself slightly to an experience or symptoms. And that鈥檚 what I don鈥檛 want, and I think that鈥檚 often the fear in a relationship when you鈥檙e telling someone or when you鈥檙e coming out. And it is, that鈥檚 exactly the right word to use, coming out, is that you鈥檙e frightened that they鈥檙e just going to see you as a list of symptoms on a checklist and not a person anymore.

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MARK - And go back retrospectively and go, 鈥淎h well, you didn鈥檛 phone me until half an hour after you said you were going to phone me, is that a symptom of depression? Were you depressed then?鈥� Going back to the awkward question, when you鈥檙e out on the old dating scene if you鈥檙e out on Tinder of Grindr or whatever new iteration of that there is during lockdown, I don鈥檛 know, emailer, [Laughter] letter writer, you don鈥檛 necessarily鈥�

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SEANEEN - Zoomer.

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MARK - Zoomer. You don鈥檛 necessarily want to share everything about yourself as a way of getting it all out in the open to start with, with people who maybe don鈥檛 necessarily have your best interests at heart, and that鈥檚 a thing.

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SEANEEN - Yeah. Keeping yourself safe is very important.

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MARK - So what鈥檚 the conclusion? Tell people when you feel ready. Tell people when you feel it鈥檚 safe. Don鈥檛 be ashamed of telling people, but like with coming out, not everyone gets to have a wonderful coming out experience and sometimes things don鈥檛 work out.

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SEANEEN - And if that鈥檚 the case, no loss, because that person wasn鈥檛 right for you anyway. I鈥檓 closing the Book of Awkward Questions. [Creaking]

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MARK - Thank God for that.

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[Music]
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MARK - Just a quick note on terminology. We said mental quite a lot in this podcast, because, you know, we鈥檙e quite comfortable with each other, we鈥檝e been in each other鈥檚 houses, we鈥檝e met each other鈥檚 fears and horrors, but mental, what does it mean and why aren鈥檛 we wrong for saying it?

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SEANEEN - Why our producer is banging the glass, as it were, to tell us we鈥檝e said it about 50,000 times. Well, it鈥檚 kind of, you know, mental health language, a lot of people use different terms, and it鈥檚 hard to find one that you鈥檙e comfortable with. Some people would say mental illness, some people say mental health difficulties, some people say mental health problems. I struggle myself to find the word that I feel comfortable saying, so I say mental. I feel like it鈥檚 that kind of reclaiming language because it has been historically used as not a very nice term towards people who are living with mental illness or difficulties or conditions. So personally the reason I use that word an awful lot is because it is a sort of reclamation, you can鈥檛 hurt with me with calling me mental because I use it myself, basically.

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MARK - Yeah, and I think as well it鈥檚 difficult sometimes for us, because you and I, we kind of live in this world of mental health and using something like mental in conversation is kind of a summary of all those experiences and thoughts and ideas as well. You know, talking about being mental is I think for us a way of just going, yeah, that鈥檚 what it鈥檚 like to live with this stuff, not to be diagnosed with this stuff, not to describe this stuff but to actually live with this stuff. So we apologise if it doesn鈥檛 quite fit with how you would use it, but we鈥檙e doing our best here and I for one am actually not ashamed of using the word mental. And with those grand and awkward thoughts, another episode of Mentally Interesting has come to an end. Thank you all for listening to us talk about shame, and thank you for letting us splurge all of our insides all over your ears.

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SEANEEN - If you fancy sharing your thoughts on this or anything else, email ouch@bbc.co.uk, putting Mentally Interesting, or mental, in the subject line. Or drop us a line on Facebook or Twitter by searching for 大象传媒 Ouch.

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MARK - And we鈥檒l be back with you next month. And I鈥檓 looking forward to meeting your new family member by the next podcast.

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SEANEEN - Yeah. I鈥檒l see you next month everybody. Bye.

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MARK - Cheers, bye.

• 听