大象传媒

This is the full transcript of Ouch 鈥� the cabin fever podcast as broadcast on 20th February 2021 and presented by Emma Tracey and Ben Hunte.

emma - Hello, and welcome to the Ouch podcast. I鈥檓 Emma Tracey, and today I鈥檓 joined by Ben Hunte, the 大象传媒鈥檚 LGBT correspondent, who鈥檚 been looking into the plight of people with learning disabilities who are also LGBT. Hi, Ben.

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ben - Hi. Yes, this has been a real eye opener for me. I鈥檝e been working on the LGBT patch for nearly two years now, and it still hits me when I hear about some of the barriers that LGBT people come up against. As a gay black man myself I鈥檓 also a minority within a minority, and some of the stories I鈥檝e been hearing from LGBT people with learning disabilities have genuinely shocked me. But what I鈥檝e loved most about making this podcast is hearing how people in the community are being the change that they want to see. So the first person I want you to hear from is Shaun.

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[Music]

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BEN - Shaun, nice to meet you, albeit in these weird times.

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SHAUN - Yes, nice to meet you.

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BEN - Tell me a bit about yourself. Where are you from? How old are you? What do you do?

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ShauN - Okay. My name is Shaun Webster. I鈥檝e got an MBE. I鈥檝e got learning disabilities. I am 48 years old. I鈥檝e got three children with my ex and I鈥檝e got five children with my wife. I鈥檓 a grandfather. I am bisexual.

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ben - Yes. You鈥檝e a big old family.

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SHAUN - It is indeed.

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BEN - You could start an army with that family. I love it. Awesome.

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SHAUN - Tell me about it. [Laughter]

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ben - And what about your sexuality?

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SHAUN - I鈥檓 bisexual. I came out when I was 38 years old, but I didn鈥檛 know much about it, 鈥榗os special schools don鈥檛 do sex education properly for people with learning disabilities, they think people like us don鈥檛 have sex or relationships.

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BEN - Interesting. Tell me a bit about your learning disability.

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SHAUN - I鈥檝e got dyslexia and I鈥檝e got short term memory issues.

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BEN - And what鈥檚 it been like for you being bisexual with your learning disability?

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SHAUN - It was fairly tough because I didn鈥檛 understand it properly. The information I got from school was lacking, and I know just that reading up about it was fairly difficult for me. I didn鈥檛 know where to turn to because I was scared, I thought I might be judged. At first, I鈥檒l be honest with you, I thought I was going mad because I didn鈥檛 understand about my sexuality, I felt very lonely and isolated.

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BEN - It鈥檚 difficult, because even just to understand, just gender identity, sexuality on, like, the most basic level it took me so long, so long. I remember I was watching every movie I could, I was Googling, I was trying to find out, like, what are these feelings because I genuinely felt like the only person out there.

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SHAUN - I was having a lot of different feelings for men and women, but I didn鈥檛 understand it, it was just very overwhelming. I went to the doctors because I felt very down about it, and the doctors didn鈥檛 understand me. They were trying to push me tablets but I didn鈥檛 want tablets, and it was a really horrible experience. And then I talked to my support worker about it, I told her my feelings and she knew what I was talking about. She said, "Shaun, I think you鈥檙e bisexual."

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BEN - Ah, there we go. So, overall how long do you think it took to actually come to terms with it, until your support worker kind of said, like, "You鈥檙e probably bisexual," how long was that overall?

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SHAUN - I think over a decade.

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BEN - Wow. And do you think that that鈥檚 quite a similar experience to things that other people go through?

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SHAUN - I reckon so, because the information for people with learning disabilities could be a lot better. I think schooling needs to be better for people with learning disabilities because at the time I went to a special school and they were more bothered about having babies. They didn鈥檛 talk about being gay, bisexual, nonbinary, transgender, none of that.

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BEN - Now, the support worker Shaun mentioned was key in helping him come out as bisexual. Support workers are there to make sure that people with learning disabilities can live the lives that they want to lead. So they鈥檒l help them with things such as financial advice and housing and cooking and all those kinds of things. They鈥檙e also sometimes referred to as care workers.

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Shaun and I were joined on the call by his colleague, Dominique. They both work for a charity called Change UK, and Dominique joined us to explain a little bit more about the work that her and Shaun do.

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dominique - Hi, I鈥檓 Dominique. I鈥檝e been working at Change for over three years now. It鈥檚 a human rights organisation for people with learning disabilities. I鈥檝e worked with Shaun over all that time on different LGBTQ+ projects.

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BEN - Can you tell me a bit more about the training that you do for people with learning disabilities?

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dominique - We do have an exploring sex and relationships session which, you know, we cover everything from the difference between friendships and relationships. We talk about consent, sex, masturbation, abuse and, you know, safe sex and different options. The main thing is we鈥檙e reaching out to a community and we鈥檙e actually asking them what are the barriers that you face and what do you think the solutions are? And we have more of an LGBTQ+ rights and awareness session, because this is open to everyone who might have those feelings, might not have those feelings but would like to learn more.

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SHAUN - Like today we鈥檝e talked about masturbating, making sure people understand having it in private places. And we鈥檝e talked about when they have sex, that they know where to have it in private places and not in the open. And they need to understand that because having sex, it can be very special, very loving, and we talked about the feelings about that too.

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BEN - Yes. And what motivated you to start providing it? So you鈥檝e got your personal experiences in there, but tell me a bit more about that, like what was the push that made you say, this needs to happen?

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SHAUN - I鈥檓 very passionate about it, 鈥榗os I鈥檓 bisexual and in the past if I didn鈥檛 have friends and family and support workers there for me I鈥檇 be in a right mess.

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EMMA - Now Ben, it鈥檚 great to see how Shaun has turned his negative experience into a positive one and now he鈥檚 providing sex education to other people with learning disabilities.

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BEN - Yes, we absolutely love to see it. So it鈥檚 important to remember that sex education was made compulsory in all schools last year, but obviously there are so many people like Shaun who left school long ago and without the work of charities they wouldn鈥檛 actually get sex education. Now, we decided to end on a bit of a fun note, so Shaun and I decided to talk about our celebrity crushes.

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SHAUN - I had a bit of a crush on Adam Ant.

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BEN - Who鈥檚 Adam Ant? Who鈥檚 this? [Laughter] Wait, I鈥檓 going to Google at the same time as you say it. Go on.

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SHAUN - You don鈥檛 know who Adam Ant was? [Laughs]

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BEN - Am I really ignorant? Hold on. Who is Adam Ant? Adam Ant is鈥�

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SHAUN - He was a famous singer in the 鈥�80s.

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BEN - Boo, I have no idea who that is. [Laughs] I thought I鈥檇 look at the photo and be, like, oh yeah. I have no idea who that is. Wow. Okay, tell me about Adam Ant?

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SHAUN - He was a famous pop singer in the early 鈥�80s. He used to dress up like a highway man. [Laughter] I actually had a crush on him, but I didn鈥檛 understand it at the time.

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BEN - Yeah, he鈥檚 cute. Oh, look at those cheekbones. Okay. He鈥檚 giving me, like, Harry Styles vibes now.

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SHAUN - He was a very beautiful man.

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[Music]

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BEN - Speaking to Shaun was great and I loved that he鈥檇 reached a happy place in his journey. I wanted to speak to someone who was at an earlier stage in their journey though, so I had a chat with Ray. He鈥檚 a 21 year old trans man who identifies as having a learning disability. Ray also has dyslexia, dyspraxia and ADHD, which he says have a huge impact on how he navigates trans health service and the dating world.

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ray - Hi.

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BEN - Hi, is that Ray?

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ray - Yeah, speaking.

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BEN - Hello, it鈥檚 Ben calling. How are you doing?

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ray - I don鈥檛 know why I just said speaking. I鈥檓 good thank you. [Laughter]

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ben - Where are you based at the moment?

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ray - Brighton.

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BEN - Oh鈥� I鈥檓 so jealous. I feel like I need the sea in my life and just the wind in my face and just feeling fresh. Talk to me about your love life. What鈥檚 going on with that?

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ray - Oh, boy! It鈥檚 a train wreck.

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ben - No! A train wreck? In what way is it a train wreck? Why?

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ray - I actually went through a break up recently because obviously it was going through, like, lockdown and all of that so we couldn鈥檛 see each other for a really long time, and that鈥檚 not easy, like, for anyone, but for me鈥� I mean, I can鈥檛 blame it entirely on the ADHD, my ADHD as a scapegoat I think, but a lot of it was due to, like, issues with my ADHD I鈥檇 say.

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BEN - How long were you together?

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ray - A year.

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BEN - A year? Oh鈥�

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ray - Yeah.

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BEN - That鈥檚 a chunk of time. I鈥檓 sorry, that鈥檚 really annoying. Well yes, we will talk deeper about that. I鈥檓 going to start off with a question around the challenges of being trans with a learning disability.

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ray - I mean, the biggest thing is it makes it a lot more difficult to access services, so for instance, like, obviously there鈥檚 GICs which are a whole minefield in itself. Mental health services are really difficult to access when you鈥檝e got a learning disability because they have a checklist of symptoms and, like, things you need to be able to explain properly. And for me, I have dyspraxia which is motor oral and verbal so that means that I really have trouble getting my thoughts into words and, like, properly expressing myself and expressing how I feel.

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BEN - Yes, that can鈥檛 be easy when the whole way through trans healthcare you have to not only defend yourself but fight for the healthcare that you want.

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ray - Exactly.

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BEN - And also you need to keep receipts of everything you鈥檝e said to everybody, everything you鈥檝e done. I can鈥檛 imagine having any barriers in that way.

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Ray - Yes, you have to keep a paper trail.

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BEN - Wow. So, if you鈥檙e keeping that paper trail and you鈥檙e struggling with it then what happens?

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ray - [Laughs] Not good things, especially because of my ADHD, I am so forgetful. So, like there was one time where I was trying to get my name and gender changed on my passport and I was panicking about it because I knew I couldn鈥檛 forget anything, and I went into the passport place and I thought I had everything and I did have everything, except for my old passport.

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BEN - Oh鈥�

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Ray - Which is the most important thing to have.

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BEN - And they said, "It鈥檚 time to leave." They said, "Get out."

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ray - Yeah, basically they kicked me out.

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BEN - And what are you doing about this? What are you trying to change?

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ray - I鈥檓 part of something called the NHS Youth Forum, and what we do is we basically work with NHS England and NHS Improvement to try and improve children and young people鈥檚 services.

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BEN - Nice. And how are you finding that?

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ray - It鈥檚 brilliant. Like, I have had a lot of really, really exciting opportunities. Right now my group is working on improving trans nonbinary access to healthcare. So what we鈥檙e doing is producing leaflets hopefully with basically, like, tips for trans and nonbinary people. Things like how to change your name and title and gender because that鈥檚 something that鈥檚 actually so much harder than it should be. And just starting with you should tell your GP about your transition and we鈥檙e hoping that GPs will also be able to pick that up.

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EMMA - Okay, so Ray is trying to work within the NHS system to make it better, not just for trans people with learning disabilities but for trans people across the board?

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BEN - Yes. So he鈥檚 trying to change things from within. And I really love that about him, because I鈥檝e spoken to so many trans people who genuinely struggle with this stuff. And obviously for Ray those challenges only increase with his learning disability. Next we talked about dating apps.

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I want to know, like, what do you think is one of the biggest issues with dating apps, or the way that you use dating apps?

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ray - I really struggle to read tone. So, like, the other day a girl on Bumble messaged me, and she was, like, "You seem so bubbly," just like, no explanation, no punctuation, and I was like, what does that mean? What does that mean?

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BEN - I mean, surely that鈥檚 a compliment, no?

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ray - But, like person punch- like an exclam- like, my words are not working today, have some punctuation please.

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BEN - That is so interesting. I feel like we would be the perfect match then because I over punctuate. [Laughs]

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ray - Yeah, exactly.

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BEN - I love an exclamation mark, to the point that my boss previously has been, like, "You put too much emotion in your emails."

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ray - How can you put too much emotion in your emails?

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ben - I know. I鈥檓 a loud person, I need exclamation marks. People need to know.

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ray - The same. Exactly.

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ben - I like that. Okay, so what else with dating apps then? Is that the biggest issue that you find is around the ability to read tone, or is there something deeper?

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ray - Remembering to reply.

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ben - No way?

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ray - That鈥檚 a big thing, 鈥榗os ADHD is a pain. So it鈥檚 that kind of thing where, like, I鈥檒l see the message, I know I need to reply so I鈥檒l put it on my, like, to do list, but my to do list has, like, a thousand things on it. So it just kind of gets lost and by the time I remember to reply to the message it鈥檚 been, like, a month.

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BEN - A month? I mean, I鈥檓 definitely not waiting a month. I would give you a day鈥� I might give you a couple of days to get it together, but a month? Good Lord. How can you sustain a conversation? It鈥檇 be, like, ten words over the course of a year.

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ray - I can鈥檛.

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BEN - I see, so that鈥檚 why it鈥檚 a drama.

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ray - No, I鈥檓 not usually that bad. I鈥檓 not usually that bad, I promise.

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BEN - So what has that meant for times when you鈥檝e been trying to build up relationships? Have you ever let someone slip away that you would have been, like, oh that could have been a great thing?

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ray - Many times. It makes it really difficult to maintain relationships. Also my other thing that I really struggle with is a lot of people don鈥檛 realise it鈥檚, like, a thing with ADHD, it鈥檚 object permanence.

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BEN - What does that mean?

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ray - So basically the simplest way I can explain it is if I get some fresh fruit and I put it in the fridge I know it鈥檚 in the fridge when I鈥檓 in front of the fridge putting it inside, but then I鈥檒l walk away from the fridge and forget it鈥檚 in there until, like, a week鈥檚 gone past and I open the fridge and it鈥檚, like, oh, that鈥檚 off. I know that when I don鈥檛 see something or someone that they still exist but that鈥檚 a concept that鈥檚 really hard for me to kind of remember.

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BEN - So in the context of you dating what does that mean?

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ray - In general I find that I don鈥檛 really miss people the way I feel like I should. It鈥檚 really difficult to explain to be honest, but it鈥檚 like I still love and care about people but if I鈥檓 not around them for, like, an extended period of time it鈥檚 kind of like, yeah, like I love you, but鈥� I鈥檓 all right. Like, I don鈥檛 feel that kind of missing feeling.

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ben - Think about it from the other person鈥檚 perspective then. So what were they feeling when you were like that?

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ray - I mean, it鈥檚 definitely not a fun thing at all, like, for anyone really. It just makes you come off as not empathetic when actually it鈥檚 the opposite of that, like, I鈥檓 incredibly empathetic, I鈥檓 just bad at showing it. One of the things that I鈥檝e found actually is that I really enjoy just dating other people with learning disabilities, because you have that mutual understanding between each other and you can emphasise more easily with each other鈥檚 experiences, even if you don鈥檛 have the same learning disability.

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[[Music]

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BEN - Dating apps are a difficult thing for all of us to navigate, but Ray gave me such important insights on how these challenges are even more complicated when you have a learning disability. Now, the next person I spoke to is Scott, a 20 year old gay man who has faced his fair share of prejudice. Scott didn鈥檛 want us to use his real name, as he was worried about the bullying he would face for talking so openly about being a gay man with learning disabilities.

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scott - Hello Ben, how are you?

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BEN - I鈥檓 okay thank you, yeah. It鈥檚 a weird time isn鈥檛 it, but it鈥檚 nice to be speaking to you. How鈥檚 your weekend been?

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scott - All right.

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BEN - Yeah? What did you get up to this weekend?

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scott - Nowt really.

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BEN - [Laughs] Well, such is lockdown isn鈥檛 it? I鈥檓 glad you said nothing. I鈥檇 have been quite worried if you鈥檇 said you were at parties or on dates or whatever else. Outside of lockdown what would you ideally be doing?

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scott - Ideally I鈥檇 be going out every night. Ideally, if I weren鈥檛 in lockdown to be honest.

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ben - Okay. And what has it been like for you being gay with a learning disability?

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scott - It鈥檚 been very tricky because obviously people don鈥檛 really understand, like, who you are as a person, people just take advantage of you. Basically they just treat me like absolute poop because, like, I鈥檝e basically been called so many names. I鈥檝e been taken the mick out of so many times just because of the way I look and the way I behave towards people. Just basically all the nasty comments which can be hurtful at times, especially when you don鈥檛 really need it.

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BEN - And what kind of things would people say to you?

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scott - Basically I鈥檝e been called speccy four eyes. I鈥檝e been called an alien, I鈥檝e been called鈥�

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BEN - An alien?

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scott - Yeah. I鈥檝e been called ugly. I鈥檝e been called so many names. It鈥檚 just ridiculous, the names I鈥檝e been called.

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BEN - When someone called you an alien how did that make you feel?

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scott - Well obviously it wasn鈥檛 the best feeling. I was quite hurt for a few days. It鈥檚 not really a name you want to be called.

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ben - Now, a little disclaimer. I鈥檝e actually seen you because we did have a talk on Zoom, so I鈥檝e seen your face and鈥�

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scott - That is correct.

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BEN - Yeah, that is鈥� Thank you. You are handsome. You鈥檙e cute.

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scott - Thank you.

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BEN - So when people say those kind of things do you actually, like, internalise it? Does it make you feel ugly, or are you kind of, like, well that鈥檚 just them being a hater because of your disability or whatever?

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scott - Yeah, I would choose the second one because obviously they鈥檙e just haters. They鈥檙e hating on me just because of the way I look, when they could be hating on so many other people. It鈥檚 just like either take your stuff and go elsewhere or just say positive comments.

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BEN - Has that experience kind of underpinned your journey as a gay person with a learning disability?

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scott - Yes, because obviously being a gay person with a disability has its ups and downs. Some people like you for who you are as a person, whereas others are just complete jackasses who basically share a load of just stupid comments because of obviously the way you are.

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ben - Tell me a bit about your coming out experience. What was that like?

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scott - To be honest, most coming out experiences that I鈥檝e heard from other people, have been extremely tough. But, to be honest, my coming out experience was actually quite easy because my parents obviously knew that I was gay to begin with, I don鈥檛 know how when I didn鈥檛 tell them but鈥� [Laughs] So obviously when I told them they didn鈥檛 really care, because they obviously knew or had an idea that I was gay. So it was fairly easy for me, my coming out journey.

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BEN - When you came out did you have a romantic partner? Did you find someone that you could love?

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scott - It took me a while obviously because it鈥檚 not easy, but after a while, yeah, I found someone, who鈥檚 now my ex-boyfriend.

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ben - Ah鈥� How have your previous partners been about your learning disability?

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scott - It鈥檚 actually a bit of a difficult question because I鈥檝e had, er鈥� I don鈥檛 know, I鈥檝e had quite a few relationships鈥�

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BEN - Oh! So popular. I like it.

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scott - Some of them have been all right in the beginning, and they, like, loved me for who I am, this, that and the other, and then at the, like, end of the relationship they basically could just turn it all around and they say loads of just absolute garbage that isn鈥檛 true, but then they make it out as in you鈥檙e in the wrong.

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BEN - One partner in particular made some very nasty comments towards Scott.

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scott - He was saying my disability was a joke. "You don鈥檛 look right. You should look like a normal person. You don鈥檛 deserve anyone. You should go and die."

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ben - My goodness, that is so, so horrific. I鈥檓 really sorry that you went through that. So you recently joined Meet 鈥楴鈥� Match. Tell me all about it.

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scott - Basically Meet 鈥楴鈥� Match is, like, where you can basically talk to people like me, talk about stuff like the LGBT community and play games and stuff like that. Basically all the fun stuff.

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ben - And do you like it?

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scott - I would say I like it. I find it very, like, obviously interesting hearing other people鈥檚 stories and see people obviously on the same page as me. I find it quite interesting that other people have learning disabilities and are part of the LGBT community. So it鈥檚 obviously a relief to see that people are there with me as well.

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BEN - Have you met anyone yet using it?

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scott - No. Not yet, no. I鈥檝e chatted to quite a lot of people on there.

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BEN - [Laughs]

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scott - Not on, like, a relationship level but I have chatted with them, yeah.

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BEN - Nice. Okay, I won鈥檛 ask too many questions, that鈥檚 proper awkward. While, Meet 鈥楴鈥� Match has been great for Scott there aren鈥檛 many organisations like it out there who are helping LGBT people with learning disabilities. This leaves a lot of people in this community feeling isolated, and that鈥檚 one of the biggest issues. Scott and I were later joined on the line by Dr Claire Bates who explained to me how the social care sector needs to be doing more.

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claire - I鈥檓 Claire Bates, and I founded the National Supported Loving Network. So the Supported Loving Network is a group of people who are dedicated to ensuring the rights of people with learning disabilities and, or autistic people around sexuality and relationships. We鈥檙e a group of roughly a thousand people around the UK, joining together to try and make loving relationships a reality for everybody.

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BEN - A thousand people is a lot of people. That sounds like you are busy.

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claire - Yes, I am. It started off as something really tiny and it just really has captured a lot of people鈥檚 hearts I suppose. People got really passionate about it.

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BEN - How would you describe the situation for LGBT people with learning disabilities?

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claire - So I鈥檝e worked in social care probably about 15 years, and it wasn鈥檛 something we talked about a lot when I first started, but now it鈥檚 something that I think situations have improved a little bit, but it鈥檚 still an area of support that鈥檚 completely lacking in social care. We don鈥檛 talk about relationships and sexuality enough and we certainly don鈥檛 talk about relationships with people who are LGBTQ very often in social care.

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BEN - Currently the CQC guidelines say that it鈥檚 not mandatory for care workers to talk to patients about their sexuality. Do you think that that needs to change?

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claire - They have guidance that says organisations should be supporting people around their sexuality and relationship needs, but currently it鈥檚 not in the key lines of enquiry which is what regulators use to inspect the quality of services. So you can get an outstanding saying that you provide outstanding support for somebody with a learning disability but it doesn鈥檛 form part of the mandatory inspection to look at whether you鈥檙e providing support around sexuality and relationships, if that makes sense.

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BEN - And do you think that needs to change?

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claire - Oh yeah, absolutely. We know CQC are working hard on this, they鈥檙e bringing out, you know, we鈥檙e working with them currently to review existing learning materials for staff and we know they鈥檝e brought out guidance, but we absolutely believe it has to form part of inspections. There are lots of organisations out there that will do it because CQC have recommended it, but we know there are some that just won鈥檛 do it unless they鈥檙e told they have to.

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BEN - So Scott, put down your drink [Laughs] and tell us about your support worker that wasn鈥檛 supportive to you.

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scott - Basically he wasn鈥檛 supportive. I told him about my story and this, that and the other, and he basically just, like, denied all help. I didn鈥檛 get any of that, didn鈥檛 get any support, I got basically nothing, all I got was a bunch of basically useless information. He just said, "Go and find all the information on your own," and basically said, "I鈥檓 not going to give you anymore help," which is not really something that a person like that should really be doing.

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EMMA - So Ben, what Claire鈥檚 saying is that the Care Quality Commission who regulate social care don鈥檛 judge social care services on the support that they provide around sex and relationships?

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BEN - It sounds like a small detail, but actually it鈥檚 pretty big, because if social care providers aren鈥檛 judged on this then they鈥檙e less likely to improve their training and how they help people with learning disabilities navigate sex and relationships. But a lot of people say that things are moving in the right direction, and this is something that does need to change because it would remove one of the big barriers for LGBT people with learning disabilities.

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Now, we鈥檝e searched far and wide for a female LGBT voice who could talk about their experiences of having a learning disability, but it wasn鈥檛 easy. Claire has worked in this area for 15 years and she told me she hasn鈥檛 come across many women in this space at all.

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claire - I work with quite a lot of dating agencies for people with a learning disability and they really struggle to get any women with a learning disability who are LGBT on their books. There are whole LGBT groups that just have men. Like, there鈥檚 one in Oxford that鈥檚 just purely men. And they set up a women鈥檚 one for people with a learning disability. Two women came, they started a relationship, and then they didn鈥檛 come back. [Laughs] Yeah, so we try to do鈥� We sort of thought about women鈥檚 only ones but it is really hard to find women. It鈥檚 really hard just to find them, women with a learning disability, and there鈥檚 such limited research on it, so they鈥檙e really well hidden.

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So one of the other main issues that they find is learning materials for people with a learning disability, and even though there鈥檚 been a lot of work to try and get more LGBT inclusive materials for people with a learning disability around sex ed, there鈥檚 still an awful lot that more focuses on men, particularly stuff that sort of was developed in the 鈥�80s and 鈥�90s. It started off with combating HIV and AIDS, so there was more focus on men. I鈥檓 not aware of a single resource that鈥檚 specifically for women with a learning disability who are gay, lesbian, bi. There is much less representation of women.

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EMMA - What an interesting podcast. Thank you very much for bringing that to us, Ben. I mean, it鈥檚 something that we鈥檝e heard about over the years but it鈥檚 not something we鈥檝e properly discussed before I don鈥檛 think. And I think, you know, apart from being LGBT and having a learning disability I think relationships for anyone with a learning disability can be tricky because of the people around them and the difficulties they have with a person with a learning disability being in a relationship as well. So it鈥檚 really, really interesting to get this take on it.

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ben - Yeah, I feel that. And to be honest, I mean, having done this job for a couple of years now I think there鈥檚 a real need for people just to be nicer. When you鈥檙e using dating apps, if you鈥檙e a carer, just be nice. [Laughs] Just support people through what they鈥檙e going through and hear them at the level that they鈥檙e at with whatever they鈥檙e needing. It鈥檚 been a real eye opener for me to hear them talk about discrimination and the things that people have gone through negatively from wider society not understanding the issues that they鈥檙e facing. And it鈥檚 really sad, really, really sad.

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EMMA - Ben, is there anything that really actually genuinely shocked you when you were doing this story about the situation for LGBT people with learning disabilities?

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BEN - I think the biggest thing is the fact that people struggle in silence, and that is very scary. The idea that if we hadn鈥檛 picked up the phone to some of the people that we were speaking to they would have held onto these thoughts and these feelings and just let them fester and that鈥檚 it. That there鈥檚 no real outlet for them and it鈥檚 quite sad to think that, especially in these times when we鈥檙e all so isolated and so alone, that people still can face this level of prejudice from the very tools that are there, supposedly to help them communicate better and more effectively and to make friends and make dates and whatever else. So yeah, it鈥檚 been quite surprising just how lonely some people are, and the fact that there鈥檚 not really much out there to help them.

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EMMA - Thanks again to Ben Hunte for joining us on the Ouch podcast. Now, if you want to get in touch with us our email is ouch, O-U-C-H, @bbc.co.uk. And we are on Facebook and Twitter, just search for 大象传媒 Ouch. You can find many, many, many more episodes of this podcast on the 大象传媒 Sounds app.