大象传媒

This is a full transcript of 1800 Seconds on Autism: Fern Brady on her recent autism diagnosis, as first broadcast on 25th February 2021. Presented by Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight.

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[Jingle: 1800 Seconds on Autism. With Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight]

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FERN - I鈥檇 really waited until things had got really, really bad in the pandemic to get help, because it鈥檚 something I鈥檇 been putting off for years and years. It was costing me more to keep repairing my house where I鈥檇 punched walls and cracked light switches, and all sorts of damage, than it cost me to go and get a private diagnosis.

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[Music]

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FERN - I thought I wasn鈥檛 an exercise person, but actually I just hate other people and being in group exercise situations.

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[Music]

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ROBYN - It鈥檚 the podcast that makes you think about how you think. I鈥檓 Robyn Steward.

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JAMIE - And I鈥檓 Jamie Knight. Emma, our very neurotypical producer, is here too.

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EMMA - Thanks, Jamie. Hello.

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JAMIE - Our guest is successful stand-up comedian, Fern Brady. Fern got an autism diagnosis a few weeks ago, and in a change to our usual format she will be asking us some questions later in the episode.

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ROBYN - Stay tuned.

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JAMIE - I don鈥檛 think so.

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EMMA - [Pause] Yeah, she鈥檚 coming. She says her laptop is being a dick. That鈥檚 what she says. She says she鈥檒l be there in two seconds two minutes.

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JAMIE - Disconnecting internet system kit. No, hang on, that鈥檚 disc. Oh, disconnected internet kit emergency. Oh no, that鈥檚 D-I-K-E.

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EMMA - Diky. Disconnect鈥� I think we鈥檙e using too many spoons on this problem.

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JAMIE - Yeah, probably are.

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ROBYN - Disconnected internet catastrophe killing.

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JAMIE - Oh, that鈥檚鈥� That sounds bad.

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EMMA - That sounds really bad.

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JAMIE - I did valentines for the first time this year, for like the first time in a decade.

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ROBYN - Ah!

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JAMIE - I sent three friends little valentines cards and I used little emojis to represent them. And then the Lion emoji to represent me and Lion. And I always thought, talking about taking things literally, that valentines was like strictly limited to one person, like, you can鈥檛 have multiple valentines, that would be naughty but, you know, there鈥檚 three or four people in my life where, you know, they stray slightly beyond platonic from time to time. And I sent them valentines and it all went down really well and I think everybody got a nice warm fuzzy feeling. And I was, like, oh so that鈥檚 why people do that.

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EMMA - Is that off the record, Jamie?

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JAMIE - That can be off or on the record.

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EMMA - Well, with the straying beyond platonic I just need to check because鈥�

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JAMIE - Yeah, go for it.

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ROBYN - Does your boyfriend know about that?

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JAMIE - Yeah. And straying beyond the platonic for me probably means having hugs. You know, remember I鈥檓 quite not snuggly.

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EMMA - No, I did get a box of chocolates this year.

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ROBYN - Ah! That鈥檚 nice.

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EMMA - Handmade ones.

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ROBYN - I got nothing.

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EMMA - Sorry.

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ROBYN - But, my keyboard had a birthday because I bought my keyboard on Valentine鈥檚 Day in, I think, 2014.

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EMMA - Does your keyboard have a name?

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ROBYN - That is a great question. My keyboard does not have a name but the reason I bought a keyboard on Valentine鈥檚 Day was because Valentine鈥檚 Day, I鈥檝e never had a valentine on Valentine鈥檚 Day and it makes me a bit sad. So I thought, well every Valentine鈥檚 Day I鈥檒l have something to celebrate because my keyboard is a keyboard and it鈥檚 just going to, you know, it likes being turned on and played. [Laughter] And it鈥檚 always going to like that, and it doesn鈥檛 matter who turns it on and plays it.

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JAMIE - Robyn, your ability to casually mention something that is deeply hilarious is just brilliant. I was not expecting a reference to being turned on when you were talking about your keyboard, so it just completely鈥�

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ROBYN - Well, I wasn鈥檛 expecting it either.

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JAMIE - It completely caught me sideways. That鈥檚 brilliant.

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[Jingle: 1800 Seconds on Autism. With Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight]

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EMMA - Is Fern here?

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FERN - Hello.

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ROBYN - Oh there she is, there she is.

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FERN - Thanks for having me.

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ROBYN - Thanks for coming.

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FERN - Do you think it鈥檚 better or worse that we can鈥檛 see each other鈥檚 faces?

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ROBYN - Well, me and Henry would love to know what you look like, but we have seen your picture on your podcast.

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FERN - I look really different today. [Laughs] Just because I woke up with a swollen lip and I don鈥檛 know why.

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ROBYN - Oh.

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FERN - So I鈥檓 actually kind of glad my face isn鈥檛 on this.

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ROBYN - Do you have a support animal?

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FERN - I鈥檝e got a cat called Roar who鈥檚 a Maine Coon and I really hate cats except he鈥檚 like a dog type cat in terms of how he is, he just likes being picked up and cuddled all the time.

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JAMIE - Maine Coons are dogs running on cat hardware, and foxes are cats running on dog hardware.

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FERN - Yeah. And actually the place that diagnosed me, the doctor had two Maine Coons and she said they use them at the centre a lot.

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JAMIE - We鈥檙e slowly in the process of stealing a cat from up the road. Whenever it wonders by we leave the door open and we give it a little bit of food and stroke it and鈥�

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EMMA - Jamie, that鈥檚 not cool.

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FERN - This is my worst fear.

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ROBYN - It鈥檚 illegal! You can鈥檛 steal someone鈥檚 cat.

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JAMIE - Well, it looks cold. And it鈥檚 allowed to come in if it鈥檚 cold. We close all the other doors and let it sit down for a bit and then it goes away again. I don鈥檛 know.

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ROBYN - Right, shall I get on with the script then? Fern Brady is a Scottish stand-up comedian and co presenter of another 大象传媒 Sounds podcast called Wheel of Misfortune, and they sing their jingle. We should do that.

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JAMIE - No. No, we shouldn鈥檛.

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ROBYN - Fern was diagnosed autistic just a few weeks ago, and is with us to tell us her story, and in a change to normal service鈥� [in announcer鈥檚 voice] Bing bong. Ladies and gentlemen, we are having a change to normal service. Thank you. [Laughter] She鈥檚 going to ask us a few questions. Hello, and welcome, Fern. First of all鈥�

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EMMA - No wait, let her say hello. 鈥淗ello, welcome, Fern,鈥� and then let her say hello.

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FERN - Hiya. [Laughs]

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ROBYN - It doesn鈥檛 say wait in the script鈥�

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EMMA - Oh God, sorry.

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ROBYN - Anyway, despite the fact that I鈥檝e just said it鈥檚 a change of service, first I鈥檓 going to ask Fern questions. This makes no sense. So it says that I鈥檓 supposed to ask you about what the assessment process was like.

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EMMA - Well, can you ask it in your own鈥�? You see, this is what happens every single month. I write the script and you totally tear it apart.

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ROBYN - Sorry.

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FERN - I can answer that, that鈥檚 easy to answer.

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ROBYN - Yeah, so can you tell me a bit about what it was like going through the diagnostic process?

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FERN - The build-up to finding somewhere to get diagnosed and the build-up to contacting my GP was much, much worse than the actual diagnostic process, if that makes sense. Because I really don鈥檛 like going to the GP at all, and I don鈥檛 like having any dealings with mental health services because I had negative experiences of them when I was younger. Over the phone this GP who I had never ever met before in a ten minute thing just flippantly said, 鈥淲ell, maybe you have a borderline personality,鈥� and that was so far from鈥� Like, I didn鈥檛 fit the criteria for that at all, so straight away I was like鈥�

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JAMIE - Autistic people are commonly misdiagnosed with borderline personality disorder.

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FERN - Yeah, and I found that out from talking to people on Twitter after the diagnosis. And I hope I鈥檓 not talking out of turn, but I do sometimes feel like personality disorders are used by people in the health professions in a sort of dismissive way?

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JAMIE - That GP assessment sounds like it didn鈥檛 go so great. Where did it go from there?

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FERN - Yeah, and I actually tried to鈥� I鈥檇 been trying my best to learn different social skills for quite a few years and try and learn how to manipulate people the way a neurotypical person does. So I thought I鈥檒l do what middle class people do, which is where you act really entitled, like, and say how you pay your taxes and that you should get a referral. Because I鈥檇 heard that posh people do that. So I said to the GP, 鈥淲ell, you know, I could go private but, you know, I pay my taxes, so please give me a referral.鈥� And he just got really annoyed at that [Laughs] and it鈥檚 just like one of loads of loads of instances where I鈥檝e tried to mask and I鈥檝e made the situation worse than it was before.

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JAMIE - I know that feeling very, very, very well.

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FERN - Oh, cool. So then he was like, 鈥淲ell look, we鈥檒l give you a referral but you鈥檒l have to go to a psychologist before you get an autism assessment.鈥� And I thought, well what鈥檚 the point of that, because I already鈥� I was in a CAMHS unit when I was 16 with a misdiagnosis of OCD, again, incredibly common in women with autism. I just didn鈥檛 need to go and see a psychologist before getting the autism assessment. I didn鈥檛 need to go through that again. So I waited for about three months. I鈥檇 really waited until things had got really, really bad in the pandemic to get help, because it鈥檚 something I鈥檇 been putting off for years and years.

JAMIE - That鈥檚 something really common. I know a lot of people who are going through the diagnostic process for ADHD or being autistic because the pandemic has just broken a lot of their coping mechanisms.

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FERN - Completely.

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JAMIE - So what was mildly under control has now become a massive problem for them.

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FERN - Completely. So to give you a picture of my life before the pandemic, I was touring all over the world doing stand-up. I went to about 14 different countries in the last two years and it was amazing, because I鈥檝e been going out with the same person for nearly nine years, but it meant that I was only ever at home for maybe two weeks of every month, and he worked during the day so I really didn鈥檛 have to see him too much. And even though he鈥檚 really lovely I don鈥檛 think I鈥檓 really made for living with another person. And then the pandemic happened. The stand-up comedy world was destroyed overnight and my boyfriend was working from home all the time, and it was just unbearable. Nothing personal to him at all, it鈥檚 just that I have such a routine way of living. It might sound odd that I had this life that was going all over the place, but I鈥檇 built a really great routine so that I had a routine whatever city I was in, and it was, like, a really great way of living.

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EMMA - How do you have a brilliant autism routine when you鈥檙e in a different hotel every night and different place every week?

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FERN - It involves a lot of planning around my food and my breakfast and stuff. This is so sad. [Laughs]

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ROBYN - Jamie鈥檚 had the same pasta tea for ages.

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FERN - Aye, I listened to that episode, yeah.

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EMMA - So what was your routine when you were on tour?

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FERN - I find the best coffee shop and breakfast place in any one town and I go there. And also, because I鈥檝e been doing stand-up for a long time you鈥檙e going back to the same towns a lot so I have to go to the same place when I go back to a certain town. I鈥檝e basically been to the same coffee shop in Glasgow so many times they think I live there. I don鈥檛, I live in London. And I went to the same coffee shop every day that I was in Melbourne doing the Melbourne Festival, kind of to the point that the staff started to, like, laugh at you a bit and think you鈥檙e weird. [Laughs]

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JAMIE - Cafes are great because they鈥檙e a really low demand environment. Somebody else is keeping it safe. There鈥檚 a nice clean desk to go sit at. You can get on with stuff, and you鈥檙e not really responsible for anything. It works really well for me, so I wonder if that is kind of like a similar thing for you?

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FERN - Yeah, it is incredible and I have really good noise cancelling headphones that pretty much transformed my life, 鈥榗os one of the ways I struggled to hide autistic traits was getting really angry at people making noise on public transport, in a way that would be embarrassing if anyone saw it.

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JAMIE - Because there鈥檚 a difference there in how much it impacts you, versus how much they think it impacts everybody.

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FERN - Yeah, I would find that kind of thing intolerable, or the sensation of people touching the back of my seat on aeroplanes and stuff. It鈥檚 so weird talking about this because only my boyfriend knows about it, and I was really good at hiding this stuff for a long time, but consequently I had meltdowns鈥� I鈥檝e only just found out that the more you mask the worse your meltdowns are. Is that鈥�?

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JAMIE - Very typically, yeah.

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FERN - Yeah, so I was鈥� To get straight to the point, the reason I got diagnosed was I bought a house last year and it was costing me more to keep repairing my house where I鈥檇 punched walls and cracked light switches and all sorts of damage, that was costing me more than it cost me to go and get a private diagnosis. Because I actually got offered a diagnosis through the NHS, and then I wanted to be referred to the Lorna Wing Centre, and then I filled out a private referral, and then both things came through at the same time on the same day, and because Lorna Wing specialises in women I was like, I鈥檓 just going to pay the money.

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JAMIE - Yeah.

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ROBYN - For people that don鈥檛 know, the Lorna Wing Centre is run by the National Autistic Society and they specialise in diagnosing girls and women who are probably autistic.

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[Jingle: Send any questions or thoughts to stim@bbc.co.uk]

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JAMIE - Getting the results from that assessment, how did that go? Kind of who told you you were autistic and how did they frame it?

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FERN - I think when she was telling me, I think they do鈥� I think part of the assessment is they secretly test you, so she kept chatting to me about my cat and I鈥檇 be like, we should get on with this assessment shouldn鈥檛 we? And now I think that was a secret test. Or when she was about to give me the diagnosis she said, 鈥淒o you want to, like, have a little break before I tell you what the diagnosis is?鈥� And I said, 鈥淲ould you like to have a little break before you tell me?鈥� And then I only just got my report last week and it was like, 鈥楩ern has trouble dealing with uncertainty, and really needs questions to have a definite answer鈥�. [Laughs] And I think she was secretly testing me just when I thought she was chatting to me casually. Does that make sense?

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JAMIE - Yes, that is part of the process. There鈥檚 nothing underhand or manipulative, that鈥檚 kind of important to note. But when I went for my ADHD diagnosis the doctor said, 鈥淗ow many times did you lose your paperwork before you got to this diagnosis?鈥� And I was, 鈥淓r, four times and then a friend had to do it for me.鈥� He was, like, hmm, that鈥檚 interesting.鈥�

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FERN - So the very first time I read about autism, or Asperger鈥檚 as it was called when I was younger, I was 16, it was well before there were a lot of women getting diagnosed, and I read it and I was like, oh that鈥檚 me, that鈥檚 what I have. And I went to a psychiatrist and he said, 鈥淵ou can鈥檛 have it because you鈥檙e making eye contact with me and you have a boyfriend.鈥� And, er鈥�

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ROBYN - That鈥檚 the biggest amount of crap I鈥檝e ever heard.

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JAMIE - Yeah.

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FERN - Yeah. Yeah, and I wasn鈥檛 sure if I had eye contact problems, and then during the assessment she was, like, 鈥淵ou know, Fern, whenever you address me your eyes look around the room, rather than looking at me.鈥� And then I found out there was all this stuff when they interviewed my mum that I didn鈥檛 know about, like I didn鈥檛 make eye contact as a child, and finding out all the things that I did as a child I was pretty much a textbook case and it鈥檚 insane to me how much I learned to mask. Pretty much from 18 onwards was when I started to get good at it.

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JAMIE - There are some people who end up with really successful masks. The upside of that is there鈥檚 a certain pattern for a lot of autistic people where they have a successful mask for ten or 15 years and they earn enough money to, say, buy a house or set themselves up financially, and then just at the step where they鈥檙e going to become the most senior person in their job or something suddenly the burn out hits, the mask drops, and they鈥檙e suddenly dealing with a level of impairment that seems to come completely out of nowhere.

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FERN - Yeah. [Laughs]

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JAMIE - It鈥檚 a very, very, very common path, I鈥檓 sorry to say.

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FERN - Oh my God. Jamie, this is crazy. You are describing things which have happened to me.

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JAMIE - Can I also mention another thing which is known as the permanent crisis mode. For a lot of autistic people we end up in crisis mode all the time, coping mode, and it becomes a way that we can motivate ourselves, and we end up acclimatising to being in a crisis. So flying around the world constantly doing things that most people would go, oh my God, that鈥檚 really, really hard, and working out how to do it, it sounds just like that permanent crisis mode. And the thing is, it just takes more energy than we鈥檝e got available, and then eventually something breaks the bubble.

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EMMA - Fern鈥檚 wanting to go back to this, I assume.

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JAMIE - Yeah, but it鈥檒l be different.

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FERN - I am wanting to go back to it, but one of the best things about the diagnosis was the doctor gave me this thing to give to my agent which, it was like a plan for how we work together moving forward, because I have a weird thing where even when I don鈥檛 want to do a bit of work I say yes because I don鈥檛 really know how to鈥� I don鈥檛 know how to negotiate my way out of things. And I was so embarrassed to send it, because the weird thing since getting diagnosed is it wasn鈥檛 this thing where I was, like, felt great about it, I actually went into fairly serious denial about it where I thought maybe the doctor wasn鈥檛 a real doctor. [Laughs] And then I looked her up and she鈥檚, like, one of the leading experts in the UK.

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JAMIE - Yeah. That鈥檚 also really common.

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FERN - Yeah. And I tweeted about it just because I told my dad about it and my dad had a very autistic response - it wouldn鈥檛 surprise me at all if my dad was that way as well - and then the tweet kind of blew up and then I said, 鈥淥h, here鈥檚 some resources I鈥檝e found helpful, but I鈥檓 not going to go on about autism now,鈥� because I still had this thing where I was, like, if I鈥檓 open about it now what was the point in getting good at hiding it for all those years? Which I know is not, like, a nice鈥� I feel like that鈥檚 the incorrect way to feel about it.

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JAMIE - There鈥檚 a name for that. It鈥檚 the sunk cost fallacy. It鈥檚 the idea that I鈥檝e put all of this energy into building a mask and if I now destroy that mask in front of everybody why did I do that?

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FERN - Exactly.

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JAMIE - And it can feel like a giant hole opens up in your chest. I went through that exact process.

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FERN - Oh, this is insane.

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ROBYN - I don鈥檛 talk about my sexuality to the rest of the world particularly, 鈥榗os it鈥檚 none of their business, and really your autism diagnosis is none of the world鈥檚 business and it鈥檚 your choice who you share it with.

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FERN - It wasn鈥檛 benefiting me hiding it so why would I cling on to that now? And I actually, when this was all going on on Twitter I ended up having to change my password to something that I couldn鈥檛 remember and deleting the app for a bit because autistic Twitter was raging at me. And someone was like鈥� Someone retweeted me and said, 鈥淚t seems like she thinks she鈥檚 better than us,鈥� and I had an immediate thing of, yeah I do because I just go home and I smash up my house in private. And, like, I just had this鈥� But the thing is, is when I watch autistic people with higher needs than me, if that鈥檚 the correct thing, I see more of myself in them than I ever do in the neurotypical world. So why did I have this immediate rejection of the diagnosis?

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JAMIE - I can tell you about a path that I鈥檝e been through a lot, and I know a lot of other people go through, which is when you get an autism diagnosis, often people start with the medical lens, autism is a thing I have, I have autism, I鈥檓 with autism or whatever, but then it slowly becomes part of somebody鈥檚 identity as it becomes more accepted and integrated and they鈥檒l say, 鈥淚 am autistic.鈥� That is very uncomfortable, it鈥檚 a re-examination of who you are and what you consider part of yourself.

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ROBYN - But also, just to say, Jamie, that I mean, I鈥檓 someone and I feel like I鈥檓 someone with autism or I have autism. I鈥檓 not that comfortable with saying that I鈥檓 autistic because I feel like, yeah, it鈥檚 a part of me but it鈥檚 only one part of me. So I think there鈥檚 lots of different ways for someone to feel comfortable with their identity and how it relates to themselves.

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JAMIE - Yeah.

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EMMA - And Fern鈥檚 way might end up being totally different to both of your ways I guess.

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JAMIE - Yeah, but that path of how you get to that point is very similar, no matter where the point ends up being. That鈥檚 kind of the point that I鈥檓 making, that this period of identity - identity sensitiveness? - is just really common, and I suppose I鈥檓 trying to reassure Fern that it does pass. Almost for everybody who I know who鈥檚 been diagnosed, it does pass.

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FERN - Yeah, it鈥檚 something I wasn鈥檛 prepared for at all, I guess, and it鈥檚 really nice to hear that, because you鈥檙e not the first person that鈥檚 said that to me. Because the biggest help I鈥檝e found since the diagnosis hasn鈥檛 been talking to neurotypical people, it鈥檚 been talking to other autistic people, because they just get it. One thing that really helped me dislike myself less was I鈥檝e got a friend who has it and everything that I like about him is because of鈥� Like, because he knows really random facts, and knows really interesting things, so if I can really like鈥� Oh, I鈥檓 not explaining this... Do you know what I mean? Basically, I really like other autistic people so why would I find it a boring鈥�? Not a boring, why would I find it so unlikeable in myself?

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JAMIE - Could it be described as having a positive role model and going, oh hang on, I could be like that?

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FERN - Exactly.

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JAMIE - Or I am like that and that鈥檚 a good position.

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[Jingle: 1800 Seconds on Autism. With Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight]

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EMMA - I clearly didn鈥檛 frame this whole interview right because I said, oh Fern鈥檚 going to ask us questions and we鈥檝e just asked her questions for the whole time鈥�

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ROBYN - For like the last hour鈥�

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FERN - I鈥檓 really sorry, I think I鈥檓 using the wrong language. That鈥檚 the other thing, is it鈥檚 hard to try and concentrate on.

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JAMIE - Language is very, very, very tricky, because language isn鈥檛 about the words, it鈥檚 about the trauma that people associate with those words. So you often end up standing on other people鈥檚 trauma which gets in the way of communication.

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ROBYN - Can Fern ask us some questions now please?

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EMMA - If she would like to. So, it sounds鈥� For me, as a neurotypical person sitting here, you sound, Fern, like you鈥檙e getting a bit distressed鈥�

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FERN - Yes.

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EMMA - 鈥�and I just wondered if you鈥檙e okay to keep going or if you鈥檇 like to finish. And if you鈥檙e okay to keep going you can throw a few questions鈥�

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FERN - Oh yes, I鈥檓 okay to keep going but that was unnerving. I didn鈥檛 know about alexithymia until I got diagnosed, so I usually think I鈥檓 fine until I suddenly start crying openly or something. [Laughs] During the diagnosis I told her that I hadn鈥檛 been worried. I was like, 鈥淵eah, I don鈥檛 sleep the night before any of the assessments, but I think I鈥檓 fine.鈥�

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ROBYN - Alexithymia, for people that don鈥檛 know, is difficulty in knowing which emotions you experience. So you still absolutely experience emotions, but you can鈥檛 necessarily explain that to other people or know which emotion you鈥檙e experiencing.

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EMMA - That鈥檚 why we鈥檝e got our Robyn here. [Laughs] You can always explain everything.

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FERN - I listened to a bunch of episodes, and I鈥檓 excited to鈥� Like, I鈥檓 not saying this to be fake, that鈥檚鈥� Well, I can鈥檛 be, but I鈥檇 been bingeing a lot of autism podcasts because they were making me feel better and then I listened to your guys鈥� one on meltdowns and I was so glad I found it because that鈥檚 what I had the biggest trouble with and it鈥檚 also been the thing that I鈥檝e struggled to find answers with. Because I really only got diagnosed so that I could find out how to stop meltdowns. And Robyn, it sounds like yours aren鈥檛 too frequent compared to mine.

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ROBYN - Yeah, now. When I was a kid they definitely were very frequent.

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FERN - And how did you learn how to鈥�? If you don鈥檛 mind answering鈥�

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ROBYN - I don鈥檛 mind.

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FERN - How did you learn how to reduce them? Because for me, I鈥檝e been keeping a little diary to work out what makes them worse.

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ROBYN - That鈥檚 a really good strategy. The way I did it really was to, firstly try and avoid situations that it might occur. So, like, some people鈥� I don鈥檛 know how you say that without a metaphor, but some people just sort of rub me up the wrong way. Like, some people, they鈥檙e not, like, horrible people, I鈥檓 not talking about bullies, there鈥檚 some people I just can鈥檛 stand, they just irritate me so much. So I have to just not be near those people. But I probably annoy them too, so I mean, I鈥檓 sure it works both ways. [Laughs] But I think also being careful about my environment. So I live on my own and I鈥檝e found when I lived with other people that that was a bit over stimulating. I鈥檓 much better on my own. So there鈥檚 that. I think also noise cancelling headphones, they鈥檙e helpful, but I think I鈥檝e also really having meltdowns really stopped once I started taking antidepressants. I mean, I had, or have depression, but primarily my problem was anxiety. I take an SSRI for anxiety and I take another medication to help me sleep. So that seems to have sorted that out really.

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FERN - Yeah, one of the biggest changes for me before even diagnosis, was unbeknown to me my boyfriend had been reading up on autism and meltdowns and he got a book on relationships with autistic people. And it was so sweet, but he started responding differently to my meltdowns and that changed things massively. So he wouldn鈥檛 get angry at me, he would just go, 鈥淧oor Fern,鈥� and then I鈥檇 just sit on the floor crying for a bit. And then I would calm down quicker. Sorry, it鈥檚 really embarrassing talking about it. I have to go up and lie down after it but then I get angry because I鈥檓, like, oh this has just used up more time in my day. So I鈥檓 currently sticking to a fairly, like, rigid thing of weightlifting in the morning and鈥� This is another thing, I thought I just liked weightlifting because I like it and then I found out quite a lot of autistic people like it.

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EMMA - Really?

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FERN - Yeah. Counting the numbers. It鈥檚 a very solitary exercise. I thought I wasn鈥檛 an exercise person but actually I just hate other people and being in a group exercise situation. And it鈥檚 the thing of, like, shifting really heavy weights really calms me down.

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JAMIE - Yeah, 100%. If I鈥檓 really stressed, going and riding my bike up a really steep hill until my lungs hurt is actually quite a good way of letting the baseline stress leach back out and then kind of getting back to a calm place.

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EMMA - Robyn?

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ROBYN - Yes.

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EMMA - Fern keeps telling us that she鈥檚 embarrassed by what she鈥檚 saying about being autistic because it鈥檚 so new to her. I thought you might want to have a little chat about that.

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ROBYN - Yeah. Well, Fern, I鈥檇 like to say please don鈥檛 feel embarrassed, because there鈥檚 nothing wrong with being autistic and maybe you process the world in a different way to other people but it鈥檚 really, I think, important that the world has a mix of people and also that we don鈥檛 make people feel guilty for how they are.

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FERN - Yeah. Absolutely. I feel like it鈥檚 important to talk about this bit that I鈥檓 going through just now of the embarrassment, because I know it is from living in a neurotypical world. And I also鈥� I mean, I should add as a bonus that everything that鈥檚 good about me and my job comes from autism because all my stand-up is about being very direct and honest. And I do believe that鈥檚 because of autism. And also I get very intensely focused on topics and I have a strong sense of what鈥檚 right and wrong.

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ROBYN - Yeah, they鈥檙e very positive traits that a lot of people experience. And I think you鈥檙e right, it is really important to talk about it, and I think sometimes on online spaces, like you were saying earlier, it can be really hard because you have to navigate the language and sort of鈥� You know, particularly on Twitter when you鈥檝e only got a certain amount of characters to express yourself to, like, not be鈥� Being autistic lends yourself to being sensitive to language, that there鈥檚 so many sort of minefields to navigate. Do you have any other questions that you鈥檇 like to ask? I鈥檓 just aware of time.

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FERN - Not really. I just wanted to say I鈥檓 really鈥� I love this podcast because you guys have a massive鈥� Well, you come across as having a great acceptance of yourself, which is something to learn from.

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ROBYN - Oh, thank you. Yeah, well I think, like Jamie was saying, that acceptance is definitely a journey and it definitely takes time to go on that journey, but I think the majority of people find a way of making peace with it. And also, being proud of who you are, you know, just like you were saying with your stand-up that you have parts of your stand-up that maybe a non autistic person wouldn鈥檛 be able to do in quite the same way about, you know, being honest and having intense interests and having a sense of what鈥檚 right.

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FERN - Yeah. And I read a really great quote the other day by some Russian journalist who was talking about Greta Thunberg. She said with autism, basically a lot of the neurotypical world engages in double think, whereas if you鈥檙e autistic it鈥檚 physically uncomfortable for you to do that, which is why Greta Thunberg can鈥檛 stop talking about climate change and why she gets angry at the hypocrisy involved in what world leaders say about it and what they do about it.

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ROBYN - Yeah.

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FERN - And that made the biggest load of sense to me and made me feel so much better about autism because any bit of stand-up I鈥檝e done that I鈥檓 proud of has come from being unable to do double think.

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EMMA - So what do we mean by double think?

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FERN - For example, women who say they鈥檙e a feminist and then change their surnames when they get married is completely inconsistent and they try and make up fake reasons for why they do it. This is something I鈥檝e been preoccupied with for years. Basically it鈥檚 really easy to point out that there鈥檚 hypocrisy between what people say and what they do if you鈥檙e autistic and people don鈥檛 like that.

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ROBYN - Thank you very much, Fern.

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FERN - Thank you so much for having me, and I hope you鈥檙e both well, and I鈥檓 going to keep listening to this.

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ROBYN - You can find the Wheel of Misfortune podcast which Fern co-hosts with Alison Spittle by searching on the 大象传媒 Sounds app, or asking your smart speaker. We recommend you do.

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JAMIE - That鈥檚 almost it for this episode of 1800 Seconds on Autism. We鈥檒l be back with another one in late March or so.

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ROBYN - You can subscribe to the podcast on 大象传媒 Sounds, and please do tell your friends and anyone else you think might be interested in our podcast. You can email stim@bbc.co.uk. That鈥檚 S-T-I-M @bbc.co.uk. That鈥檚 our email address if you鈥檇 like to get in touch.

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JAMIE - Thanks Fern Brady for joining us and to you for listening. Bye.

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ROBYN - Bye.

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[Jingle: That was 1800 Seconds on Autism]

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