大象传媒

1800 Seconds on Autism, Episode Eightbbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast
Presented by Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight

[Jingle: 1800 Seconds on Autism. With Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight]
[Intro]

MELISSA -聽There鈥檚 no books. There鈥檚 no person in a position of power who gets up and talks about autism who鈥檚 black.

JAMIE聽 -One of the stims that I developed during lockdown was rubbing my hand down the side of shelves in a supermarket.聽

MELISSA -Okay.

JAMIE聽 -I didn鈥檛 even know I was doing it. And I鈥檇 go click, click, click, click. And I kept getting store detectives come up behind me because they鈥檇 think that I was trying to steal stuff.

[Music]

JAMIE聽 -Welcome along. This is the last episode in the current series of our podcast that makes you think about how you think. Thank you for being there. I鈥檓 Jamie Knight.

ROBYN -I鈥檓 Robyn Steward. On this episode our guest, Melissa Simmonds, talks about being a black autistic woman. Three minority groups for the price of one.聽

JAMIE聽 -How would you react if a builder came to do some work in your home and arrived ahead of schedule? Argh! Don鈥檛 like that. Listener, Daisy, has been there and will tell us how she coped. Let鈥檚 grab the bull by the horns and jump right in. And that totally came from the script. [Whispers] I鈥檝e no idea what it means.聽

ROBYN -Thanks for being here. It鈥檚 the last episode of this series. Sadly, Jamie is only here for half of this episode because he ran out of spoons, so in the last half it鈥檚 just me. But, jumping straight into the podcast, here鈥檚 Jamie introducing our first guest.聽

JAMIE聽 -Melissa Simmonds is black and autistic and mum to two autistic children. Hello, and welcome to the show, Melissa. Please could you tell us about yourself?

MELISSA -Yeah, I鈥檓 in my early 40s now. I was diagnosed with autism, I think it鈥檚 about five or six years ago, and I received my diagnosis after my children, which is becoming increasingly common. Luckily I live in Sheffield and they have an autism studies masters that you can do at Sheffield Hallam, and so I just thought I鈥檇 go on there to understand autism better so that I could understand myself better and just make sure I can support my kids as best as I can.

JAMIE聽 -Awesome. So what do you do in autism land?

MELISSA -I started something called MisTaught and I started it to actually educate children about autism. I then started as well to educate faith settings, because I found when people receive a diagnosis in their family they kind of want the support of their community, and for some people that鈥檚 their faith community. And actually when they go to church or to temple or to mosque there鈥檚 not a lot of understanding, because a lot of times they expect children to be quiet or behave a certain way.聽And I鈥檝e also started to just do lots of talks about autism, because unfortunately through university my first assignment was looking at the late diagnosis in black children, and that鈥檚 when I realised there are no journals, articles, there are no books, there鈥檚 no person in a position of power who gets up and talks about autism who鈥檚 black. So although I went to university because I wanted to be educated about autism I soon realised that actually I would have to be in a position where I was educating other people about it.聽

ROBYN -How old are your children?

MELISSA -My daughter is almost 12, my son is almost 16.

ROBYN -What words do you use to describe yourself?

MELISSA -I call myself black. I don鈥檛 like BAME, which is Black, Asian Minority Ethnic. I don鈥檛 like BME, which is Black Minority Ethnic, because that does not describe me as an individual. I鈥檓 a black woman. And in lots of organisations they say they have a BAME representative or they鈥檙e recruiting BAME individuals, but I always ask what does that mean, because when you look at the ONS, which I can鈥檛 remember what it stands for now鈥�

JAMIE聽 -Office of National Statistics.聽

ROBYN -Office of National Statistics.聽

MELISSA -That鈥檚 it, thank you.聽

JAMIE聽 -[Laughs] Trust me and Robyn to know that.聽

MELISSA -聽鈥�and you see the categories of race or ethnicity, there are so many different colours under the umbrella of BAME. And so actually, if you say well we鈥檝e got a BAME representative to talk about the experiences of autism in the BAME community, actually if a Chinese or Japanese person gets up and talks about their experiences of autism I鈥檓 kind of, like, 90% certain that their experience is going to be different from mine.聽Even if somebody from the Ugandan community or Nigerian community got up and talked it would be different for me because I鈥檓 a black British Yorkshire lass, and my parents came over to the UK from Jamaica. The majority of the black community want to be referred to as black. So call me black. And if you鈥檙e not sure, ask me how would you like to be referred to, just like how it鈥檚 really normal now for us to ask people about their pronouns. We wouldn鈥檛 hesitate to ask that question now, yet we feel uncomfortable to ask about race in a respectful way.

JAMIE聽 -It鈥檚 a similar sort of thing with asking if somebody prefers 鈥榳ith autism鈥� or 鈥榓utistic鈥�. You know, there鈥檚 an overwhelming preference towards autistic, but there鈥檚 still a lot of people who prefer person first language, so the best thing to do is to ask somebody.聽

MELISSA -Any of the conferences or workshops you go to, all the speakers are white, and it鈥檚 not good enough. And I鈥檓 not saying, oh you need to hire Melissa, that鈥檚 not what I鈥檓 saying, but what I鈥檓 saying is, you can鈥檛 just have female and male representatives from the autism community and feel like you鈥檝e done your quota and say, well that鈥檚 enough, because actually, no it鈥檚 not.聽聽

ROBYN -How would you go about, you know, if you were putting on a speaker series how would you go about finding autistic people who aren鈥檛 white?

MELISSA -Twitter, I think, is very good, where actually you can learn so much from the non-white communities, but you have to put the work in. There isn鈥檛 a single answer, but it鈥檚 about you kind of putting the work in and finding people and connecting with them and then taking the relationship from there.

JAMIE聽 -We鈥檝e got a lot of podcast listeners who want to ask about masking, but I鈥檓 guessing that there鈥檚 something more interesting here. There鈥檚 intersectional masking where you鈥檙e both masking perhaps black culture things and autism things at the same time. There鈥檚 like a double, double empathy problem. Does that make sense?

MELISSA -Yeah. I call it triple because the UK is a white society set up with systems, rules, laws, that cater to the white community. And so I have to conduct myself in a certain way that is pleasing to the white community, because if I don鈥檛 do that then I鈥檓 faced with aggression or negative assumptions on me. So that鈥檚 one mask that I鈥檝e had to learn from a very young age anyway. And then to be autistic I鈥檝e had to mask that, to act in a certain way in society.聽So I鈥檝e acted like I could cope with certain things that I couldn鈥檛 cope with. I learnt everything through observation. I鈥檓 not sure how much just comes to me naturally, but I know that I figure out what is fashionable through observation, I figure out what the right thing to wear is through observation. I figure out what is deemed beautiful through observation. Everything I do is through observation, I don鈥檛 really have an opinion on something, or I never used to have an opinion, it was through pure observation. So I learnt to mask everything as an autistic individual.聽And then, even though as a black person I can be more of myself within the black community, actually I鈥檓 also autistic and there is not a very good understanding of autism within the black community. So I still actually within that community have to mask as well. So there鈥檚 no setting where Melissa can be Melissa, and so because of that I鈥檝e never had a clear outline of who I am, and it鈥檚 not until I received my diagnosis that I started to actively figure out who I was. And so that鈥檚 something I actively work on with my children so that they don鈥檛 get into their 40s and have no concept of who they are, and so that their health is better, because mine鈥檚 crap.聽

JAMIE聽 -The development of a cohesive identity requires an environment that is identity supporting.聽

MELISSA -Yes.

JAMIE聽 -And even in just, you know, kind of standard autism circles this can be a huge problem where, so you have parents who are not particularly understanding who are pushing somebody to be as normal as possible, and in turn don鈥檛 give them a safe place at home to be themselves. It sounds very familiar but just with a different angle. And of course much more intense because it鈥檚 everywhere and all the time.聽

[Jingle: 1800 Seconds on Autism. With Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight]

EMMA -Why is autism less well understood in the black community?

MELISSA -聽I think there鈥檚 not big enough investment to educate the community about it. I think again, with the NHS, with statutory services we鈥檙e an afterthought, we鈥檙e classed as hard to reach and so nothing鈥檚 developed culturally appropriately to educate us about autism. So I鈥檒l never blame my black community for it, I think sometimes people want to say, 鈥淥h well, they鈥檙e hard to reach,鈥� and they just don鈥檛 understand it and it鈥檚 because of religion reasons and this and that, but actually we don鈥檛 have the money, we don鈥檛 have the tools to do it. Give us the funding and then give us the space to educate the community.聽So yeah, I have to mask more there because I think Eurocentric thinking is very I, whereas I鈥檝e always been brought up to say we, so I try to think collectively. So I think there鈥檚 certain behaviours and certain attitudes within the community where I want to be pleasing to my community. I want to represent my community and so I think there鈥檚 a lot more pressure on the, although I don鈥檛 like to use BAME or BME, but there鈥檚 more pressure on the BAME communities to be respectful and strive, you know, do better than their parents did. And so you do mask what you鈥檙e struggling with because you want to make your family proud.聽

ROBYN -聽How could diagnostic services be more culturally sensitive? Like you say that there are people who feel that they have to mask to make their family proud, but also they might benefit from a diagnosis. So how could services be more culturally sensitive?

MELISSA -I think language. I mean, language is important. Representation鈥檚 important. You know, if you鈥檙e going in a room with your black child to be diagnosed and you鈥檙e just surrounded by a sea of white people I think you鈥檙e a bit more hesitant to talk about difficulties that they鈥檙e displaying. There鈥檚 a mistrust of healthcare because of a history of things that have been done to us at the hands of white doctors and nurses. We鈥檝e got centuries of evidence of that. There鈥檚 also just a prejudice within schools. You know, if my child鈥檚 acting a certain way the teacher鈥檚 more likely to see it as a behaviour issue instead of a disability, purely because it鈥檚 a black child. So I think there needs to be a lot of bias training for people who are in positions of power that will be writing documents to diagnose children. There鈥檚 just so much that needs to change and I really don鈥檛 honestly know where to start.

Emma -Yes, it鈥檚 so huge and complex.

MELISSA -It鈥檚 so huge, but I think we should be doing so much more better than we are in the UK.

ROBYN -Yes. Melissa, could you give us some examples about how non-white people have maybe been mistreated by medical professionals in the past?

MELISSA -I鈥檓 writing a chapter at the minute and talking about some examples in the UK and in the US about things that have happened at the hands of healthcare. And one of the things at the minute is, when you think about skin cancer I think the examples that they use to learn about skin cancer, it鈥檚 on white skin, so when they鈥檙e learning they鈥檙e not learning about what skin cancer would look like on a black person鈥檚 skin, which means it鈥檚 missed until it鈥檚 too late.

JAMIE聽 -Do you know about the NFL one?

MELISSA -No?

JAMIE聽 -聽So the NFL, which is National Football League in the US I think, they have a thing about head injuries and about concussions where they use an IQ test, and if your IQ drops by a certain amount you鈥檙e liable for compensation. And they had what they called the racial modifier, which was the assumption that all black people started with an IQ 20 points lower. It was built into the test. So it鈥檚 paid out to almost no black people at all, because it鈥檚 been built into the test, biased from the start with this assumption. And that was a couple of months ago that was changed. It came to light. So it鈥檚鈥� I鈥檓 not quite sure what to say, right? I鈥檓 trying not to cry, which is one thing. I鈥檝e just recently had some medical trauma, so you know, it鈥檚 a little bit current for me right now.聽

EMMA -Yeah.

[Jingle: Email stim@bbc.co.uk]

EMMA -What has masking done to you? You鈥檝e mentioned a couple of times that your body has not done well out of it.

MELISSA -My first job was in Meadowhall where there鈥檚 no natural light, so I worked under fluorescent lights for two years. I had raindrop psoriasis. I鈥檝e had depression. I was diagnosed with severe prolonged depression at 18. I was diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome, I think it鈥檚 about nine years ago now, I had to leave my post in the Civil Service, because I鈥檇 come home and my body would be wrecked. I鈥檇 crawl up the stairs, I couldn鈥檛 even walk. And understanding what I know now I was just鈥β營 mean, I love Marvel movies and superhero movies and if you think about that superhero who puts like a shield, like a protective dome shield over stuff, I think my body was just trying to put a shield around me for so long and it just couldn鈥檛 cope anymore. But as a parent who is autistic, we鈥檙e struggling with our issues, our own metaphorical baggage as well as trying to juggle parenting and to find that balance. And I think in pictures, and my life is very much spinning, what feels like lots of plates. And then it feels like there鈥檚 also a fire in the corner of the room that I need to focus on and try to put out as well.聽And so that, trying to juggle and find balance then causes me to implode a lot, so I do have a lot of meltdowns that I feel really embarrassed about afterwards and have to apologise to my children about. Words haven鈥檛 been created to explain how much I love my children, and it鈥檚 the biggest insult when people feel or make assumptions that, because I鈥檓 autistic I can鈥檛 have empathy and love, if anything I love too deeply, I love too hard, and I have too much empathy.聽

JAMIE聽 -One of the things that we鈥檝e seen, particularly in the US, is about how young black people can get a really rough time from authorities and be misinterpreted. You have an autistic son, do you worry about him when he鈥檚 out and about?

MELISSA -Absolutely, and he鈥檚 very rarely out and about on his own. So my fear as a parent is holding him back, and I鈥檓 really aware of that, and it鈥檚 a juxtaposition I鈥檓 at where I鈥檓 totally against ABA and behaviour modification, but then there鈥檚 a part of me trying to teach my child to act, quote unquote, 鈥榯ypical鈥� you know? And I want him to be exactly as he is, because I love him unconditionally but I鈥檓 also really, really scared of him out there in the world. And so I鈥檓 having to fight the urge to try and teach him to be normal so that he will go under the radar.

ROBYN -Just so you know, ABA stands for Applied Behavioural Analysis. It鈥檚 a way of educating autistic people to act like they鈥檙e non autistic, but it can be quite harmful for autistic people and there are other ways of supporting autistic people, including things like looking at their environment. Well, that鈥檚 my take on ABA anyway.聽

EMMA -What would you鈥�? Not intentionally and out of love, what would you be suggesting that he may not want to do or act like?

MELISSA -It鈥檚 stimming. I have masked for so long my body is wrecked because of it, so I do not want my children鈥檚 bodies or minds wrecked, I want them to lead happy, healthy lives, but I鈥檓 trying to figure out how I can stop him stimming in public so that he doesn鈥檛 draw attention to himself and then end up being harmed by the people around him or being arrested when he runs when he鈥檚 questioned or cornered. And so yeah, I catastrophise a lot, but I鈥檓 so, so worried, and he鈥檚 going to be starting college soon and I really don鈥檛 know how I鈥檓 going to cope with that, because he won鈥檛 be in the integrated resource anymore at school which was a safe environment for him.聽You know, he鈥檚 going to be off at college with lots of strangers around him who have no understanding of autism. And so, as a parent I feel so conflicted because I鈥檓 surrounded by lots of white parents who just let their children be, and I have a lot of resentment sometimes towards them, and an envy because I wish my child could act like that in public. I wish that as a parent I could just say, 鈥淲ell, you know, let them take off the mask and be exactly who they are,鈥� but I can鈥檛 because I have to look at the bigger picture. And before people see that my son鈥檚 autistic or may have a disability they will always see his race first, and so I have to look at his isms and try and find a safe space and time for him to do that so that when he鈥檚 in public he can be safe around white people.聽

JAMIE聽 -I don鈥檛 have a good answer for you here, but I鈥檓 the same, it鈥檚 why I don鈥檛 go out in public much because I can鈥檛 not stim. And when I stim I get attention. One of the stims that I developed during lockdown was rubbing my hand down the side of shelves in a supermarket.聽

MELISSA -Okay.

JAMIE聽 -I didn鈥檛 even know I was doing it. And I鈥檇 go click, click, click, click. And I kept getting store detectives come up behind me because they鈥檇 think that I was trying to steal stuff. And I was completely unaware of this until one day I was like鈥� It鈥檚 really weird, this guy in the same coat always follows me around B&M and I was like, oh wait, I鈥檓 attracting the wrong attention. So yeah, again it鈥檚 a different lens, it鈥檚 a different intensity. As you say, the judgement is made on the colour of his skin before he even gets to the point that I get to, but I could totally see how some of the things that I do and we鈥檒l give him the benefit of the doubt, he wouldn鈥檛.聽

ROBYN -Thank you, Melissa. Bye-bye.

JAMIE聽 -Yes, it鈥檚 been great, thank you.

MELISSA -Thank you very much. Take care. Bye.

[Music]
JAMIE聽 -聽Hey Emma. You told me to tell you when I was done. I am absolutely cooked and my pain levels are through the roof. I need to stop.聽
[Jingle: 1800 Seconds on Autism. With Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight]

EMMA -Do you know, Robyn, it鈥檚 a real shame that in the last episode of this current series Jamie鈥檚 had to leave the recording because unfortunately his pain levels have got too high and he鈥檚 not been able to continue.聽

ROBYN -It is a shame, but on the positive side it鈥檚 good that he was able to tell us that and that he was able to do what his body needs him to do.聽

EMMA -Exactly.聽

ROBYN -We鈥檙e heading towards the end of this series, and straight away we鈥檝e got another guest who鈥檚 joined us. Hello, Daisy.

DAISY -Hello, Robyn.

ROBYN -Daisy sent us a very detailed email about disruption and how this very podcast helped her cope during a particular incident. Daisy, could you tell us about when the workmen came to you?

DAISY -I can indeed. Yes, so I had a contractor booked on this particular day and I鈥檇 been told beforehand that he was going to be coming between ten and two and he was going to be fixing my window frames. And I knew that was very important because my window frames were falling apart and they were letting lots of cold air in. And I鈥檇 planned the day so that鈥� He wasn鈥檛 coming until ten o鈥檆lock, I鈥檇 planned the day to go for a run because I like my runs, it lets out lots of excess energy and helps me out for the day. I鈥檇 then wash up and I鈥檇 go for a shower and I鈥檇 all be ready for ten o鈥檆lock. And as I ran towards the house it was quarter to nine and there was a van outside and I realised what had happened. There鈥檚 a man stood on my garden and he鈥檚 the contractor and I鈥檓 in my running clothes and I haven鈥檛 had my shower and I haven鈥檛 done my planned washing up and now I need to be polite to someone in my home. So yes, as you can imagine that made me feel really, really uncomfortable.聽

ROBYN -Yeah, I mean it鈥檚 very overwhelming isn鈥檛 it?聽

DAISY -Yeah. I think the thing I found most difficult was they鈥檙e in your home, so my home is my safe space, it鈥檚 me and Tigger and no one else comes in, apart from when we organise something or鈥� And even more so this year as well. So whether it鈥檚 my bubble coming in or whether it鈥檚 my family coming in it鈥檚 usually quite organised and I know what to expect, but obviously this contractor is someone that I don鈥檛 know, that I鈥檝e never met before and he鈥檚 now coming into my safe space. So what I wanted to do at the time was scream at him and tell him to go away and get out of my home and that I didn鈥檛 want him there, but not only would my windows not get fixed, but the people that organised him being there are also the people that I work with. So I could understand that what I wanted to do initially was not what would help me in future life.

ROBYN -So what did you do to deal with the situation?

DAISY -Previously when I felt uncomfortable in certain situations I could never really work out why or what it was I didn鈥檛 like or what it was that didn鈥檛 make me feel good. I would just either use language I understood, like I鈥檓 having a panic attack or I feel uncomfortable, but I couldn鈥檛 quite put my finger on it. But the more I listened to your podcast and the things that you describe, Robyn, and the things that Jamie鈥檚 used to describe as well, I can now pinpoint what it is that鈥檚 making me feel uncomfortable. And you guys have kind of made this wonderful, like break glass emergency pack.聽

ROBYN -So what鈥檚 in your emergency break pack?

DAISY -So, on the day one was like, plan and organisation. So I went back to my diary, and I often joke that if ever I lose my diary I don鈥檛 think I鈥檇 ever make it into work or anywhere else, so on there I鈥檇 listed the things that had to happen that day, the things I鈥檇 like to happen, and then if I had spare time what I could fill them with. The next part of my plan was have a shower. How do I feel about this? I have got a lock on the door. It鈥檚 probably not a good idea to go into a shower when there鈥檚 a stranger in the house, but like this was my plan, so I decided, right, this is what my next step is. I knew that the next room he had to work in was the room with my clothes, so I went and got my clothes and packed that as well. So that was number one, like back to the plan; what still works, what doesn鈥檛.聽The other thing was warmth, comfort and heat. So I went and got my bobble hat and my fluffy hat. I got the cat, I put the electric heater on, I got my hot water bottle and I locked myself into the other bedroom that was like my comfort zone. I was like, okay whilst he鈥檚 out there I鈥檓 in here. And then I used your podcast throughout the day, so whilst he was in as well every time I kind of achieved something, so right, I鈥檇 done the shower now, or I鈥檇 done the washing up now or I made polite small talk to the contractor that went something like, 鈥淥h, you were early, I wasn鈥檛 expecting you until ten.鈥� There we go. Polite small talk. Done. Then I could listen to another bit of your podcast, and it basically just got me through, these little steps being like, oh here鈥檚 another voice I recognise again, I鈥檒l just lock myself in the room and put that on.

ROBYN -Ah.聽

EMMA -聽That makes me so happy.

DAISY -And then for the contractor, at the time I noted to him, I told him, 鈥淵ou鈥檙e earlier than expected,鈥� and he said something along the lines of, 鈥淥h, I had another job so I just thought it would be easier if鈥︹�� So he thinks it was faster for him and it was more suitable for him, but actually it affected me so much that I was still feeling the negative consequences three days later. So the second time round, so I had a contractor in, I think it was the day before yesterday鈥�? I asked them for the entire period of time that the work people could turn up, so what鈥檚 the very earliest this person could turn up and what鈥檚 the very latest. So instead of having a ten till two timeslot I was given an eight till five timeslot. Now, usually I recognise that other people might not like the longer timeslot but it meant I was prepared from the moment they could physically turn up to not try and fill my day with anything else.聽

EMMA -Can I ask what it sort of physically feels like when something鈥�? What happens in your body and your head when something like a contractor or something else happens?

ROBYN -When disruption happens, for me I feel like a lot of whatever was inside of me weighting me has gone and I become very sensitive. A bit like a wound. You know like, obviously your skin protects you but if you, like, fall over, for example, and you scrape your knee, when you touch where the blood is it hurts because layers of skin have been taken off. Your body isn鈥檛 designed for you to be touching that layer of skin that鈥檚 still there because there鈥檚 normally several layers on top of it and so it really hurts. And I suppose it feels like that, that it makes me very sensitive to everything else and it can also make my brain slow down and everything is a bit scrambled. A bit like, you know, Emma, sometimes when you talk to people over the internet and they sound like they鈥檙e an alien or something and you only hear little bits of what they鈥檙e saying?

EMMA -Hmm-hmm.

ROBYN -It鈥檚 like that. Although I鈥檓 hearing it normally my ability to process is drastically reduced and I can鈥檛 think, I can鈥檛 access all my brain functions properly.聽

EMMA -Yeah. Wow. And Daisy, does that sound familiar?

DAISY -Oh my gosh. All the way through this podcast every time Robyn says something or Jamie describes something, the amount of times I鈥檝e been like, that鈥檚 all the words I鈥檝e been trying to say for years and that鈥檚 perfect. I鈥檇 also like to say thank you to you because when I have an uncomfortable feeling or a really happy feeling I鈥檝e had to shake out of the energy, I need to get my excess energy out like Doctor Who when they regenerate and all the light comes of their hands. And Robyn, when you described flapping I could not feel more happy that that鈥檚 exactly what I do. Before I go back to work now I鈥檓 going to flap all the excess energy out because that鈥檚 exactly the description.

ROBYN -Oh yes. I鈥檓 doing some happy flapping. So鈥檚 Henry.聽

DAISY -Good. Thank you, Henry.

ROBYN -That鈥檚 it for this episode, and this series of 1800 Seconds on Autism. Thank you so much for letting us into your earphones. We鈥檝e had so many amazing messages to our email address, stim@bbc.co.uk. That鈥檚 spelt S-T-I-M @bbc.co.uk. And we鈥檝e only been able to read out a tiny percentage of them on the podcast.聽
Thanks to everyone who has been in touch. We do read them all. It鈥檚 been our pleasure to entertain and support you in such unsettling times.聽
And if you鈥檙e hearing 1800 Seconds on Autism for the first time there are 23 more episodes on the feed for you to binge on. We know that some listeners have heard all episodes multiple times, or have played their favourite ones over and over. Or both. That makes us very happy. Keep yourselves subscribed to the podcast though, you never know when we might drop a random episode. In the meantime, if you鈥檙e a fan of the show and want more please email us and we鈥檒l pass it on to the bosses here. Bye-bye, and bye-bye from Jamie and Lion.聽
[Jingle: That was 1800 Seconds on Autism]