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Mentally Interesting Episode 8

5 January 2022

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bbc.co.uk/ouch

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Presented by Mark Brown and Seaneen Molloy

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Music ... featuring upcoming clipsÌý

MARK-Ìý Outside of what I think was a Chinese supermarket there was a polystyrene box of crabs. For a good morning I was convinced that if I went and cashed my giro I'd have enough money to buy all the crabs, and then I'd be able to set them free in the Thames. They'd all just wave their claws at me and go, "thank you, thank you for saving me".Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý I went up to the pet shop to get a mousetrap. Sort of near the counter there was this cage and there was like these little tabby kittens in it and a little black kitten. I just couldn't leave them so I purchased a cat carrier and took them home. When I mentioned it to my mental health team they said, "oh that's very impulsive. Are you having any other symptoms of mania or whatever?" and I just like, "no, I just couldn't leave them there looking all sad and stuff".

JAMES- It's hard to plan ahead; it's hard to see a future when you don't really want one. But when you have your rats or your pets or anything like that it's just at least I have something immediate that I can do, that I can feel productive about, something that's instantly helpful.Ìý

(end of clips)

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MARK-Ìý (speaks over the tail end of the theme music) Your ears are on Mentally Interesting from ´óÏó´«Ã½ Ouch. It's mental ill health done in a non-scary way because for us it's something that's really normal. I'm Mark Brown.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý And I'm Seaneen Molloy. We like talking about brain stuff, and we've been friends for a long time.Ìý

MARK-Ìý If you're new to the programme, we always have a guest and we also have an excitingly relevant surprise special feature at the end of every episode. We're here with you every week through January for ´óÏó´«Ã½ Ouch.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý So far we've covered some pretty serious subjects.

MARK-Ìý We've done loss, we've done grief, we've done anxiety, we've done shame, we've done shame again, we've done postnatal anxiety. And this time?

SEANEEN- Ìý Well, this time we're going for cute. This time we're doing a show about how cute mental ill health can be. No, it's not that. We are going to be talking about pets and what they bring to our lives. And later on we have our guest, James, who's going to tell us why rats help him through the night. And we'll also look at the messages you've sent us about your pets.

MARK-Ìý And that has been the cutest thing in the entire world; I've spent the last couple of days looking at pictures of people looking so cute and wonderful with their pets, just going ah.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý So, this isn't an episode about support animals. You might have heard about emotional support animals which are animals which are there to kind of serve a practical purpose for their owners. We're talking about pets, our cats and dogs, rats and hamsters, horses and…

MARK-Ìý Budgies, snakes, dinosaurs, elephants.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý So, Mark and I are both pet people. Specifically we're kind of cat people.Ìý

MARK-Ìý I am absolutely a cat person, beyond a shadow of a doubt.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý I like dogs, but when I was ten I was mauled by a dog, so I had 40 odd stitches.

MARK-Ìý Really?Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý Yeah, proper torn up.Ìý

MARK-Ìý Holly heck!

SEANEEN- Ìý Holy moly. So, that's why I wouldn't have a dog as a pet, but I really like dogs, I think they're really lovely. And when I know a dog I'm totally chilled and it can be friends. But cats are my kind of pet because they're little and fluffy and you don't have to walk them. And I have had two cats for nearly 14 years now. My cats are Boy Cat and Girl Cat, which are really rubbish names.Ìý

MARK-Ìý They're absolutely wonderful.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý I was trying to think of a double act name and never could, so those names stuck, embarrassingly. I always hated going to the vets and being like Boy Cat, Girl Cat. So, I got those pets not long after I'd been out of hospital. It was during a particularly bad period in my mental health. I was living in this very cold, very horrible flat without heating and it had a pretty bad mouse problem. So, there was one day I was just sitting in the living room and then this mouse kind of like popped out from behind the skirting boards. Sort of near the counter there was this cage and there was like these little tabby kittens in it and a little black kitten. And I just couldn't leave them so I asked how much they were, and purchased a cat carrier and took them home.Ìý

MARK-Ìý How did you feel on that day?

SEANEEN- Ìý When I mentioned it to my mental health team they said, "oh that's very impulsive. Are you having any other symptoms of mania or whatever?" and I was like, "no, I just couldn't leave them there because they were crying and looking all sad and stuff". They weren't like aloof cats; as soon as they got to the flat they came out of their little carrier and wandered around. I did struggle in the beginning to look after them, so things like cleaning their litter tray out and stuff, I didn't remember that so well and the practical side of stuff I did struggle with initially. But I had my boyfriend to help. But most of the time I just sat in the chair while they kind of clambered over me being adorable. And everything I've done basically since I got them has been to try and make their life better. And in order for me to do that I've had to look after myself.Ìý

MARK-Ìý Yeah.

SEANEEN- Ìý They've basically kept me out of hospital for 13 years, because if I'm not around then who's going to look after them? All the choices I've made in my life have been to try and give them a happy life. I've moved places where I've had gardens once they've started going out, and made sure that they've had places to hide and stuff. So, when I got Boy Cat and Girl Cat I was renting, and have been renting most of my life. But you're not really meant to have pets in rented accommodation, and often contracts say that you're not allowed to have them, so it is tough to have a pet. But the other option is to lie, lie your head off.

MARK-Ìý To lie through your teeth.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý I lied through my teeth for years in order to keep my pets. Some of the stuff I did was when landlords were coming round for inspections I'd take the cat carrier and hide them round the corner in someone's car along with all their cat stuff. You had to be really, really thorough about it; not just have kibble on the floor. It's like, oh yes that's just a snack for me.

MARK-Ìý Mm, lovely, yum, yum, yum, this lovely crunchy biscuit thing.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý Yum, yum, yum. So, once I had them come round unexpectedly and I lobbed them in the wardrobe, which I still feel bad about, and just turned up music so that would kind of drown out the sound of cats meowing from confusion in the wardrobe. And leather saver, you know that stuff you put on scratches in fabric, really good and does work. My cats scratched the hell out of a leather chair, which I feel bad about that they did it, but hey they're cats, and I painted it in and it did a good job. When I saw that flat up again for rent they had the same chair, so I was like well I feel quite proud of myself. I only have one cat now.Ìý

MARK-Ìý Oh.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý Boy Cat died. He died two months ago.Ìý

MARK-Ìý I'm sorry.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý It was very hard. He had cancer and we had cancer treatment, and you know that kind of thing where you really hope that things are going to work and then you see that it's not and it's kind of futile and it's hard to accept; that was kind of what it was like for him for a couple of months.Ìý

MARK-Ìý My cat, Pyewacket, an absolutely gorgeous tabby…

SEANEEN- Ìý What's he called, Pyewacket?

MARK-Ìý Pyewacket. It is the name of the witch's cat in Bell, Book and Candle, the 1950s film. So, Pyewacket.

SEANEEN- Ìý That is a way better name than Boy Cat and Girl Cat.

MARK-Ìý I don't know. He didn't mind, he's a cat. But with him he had a disability in essence that got more pronounced as he got older. He had maybe something wrong with his spine, some difficulty with his nervous system, so he got increasingly wonky as he got older. He'd kind of stagger a lot more. It was like the two bits of an articulated lorry, like he would just jack-knife and fall over. And deep within me I kind of had two competing fantasies: one fantasy was that one day somehow I'd get up and he would be all right again and just be able to live forever. And I also had this kind of fantasy that somehow this little furry lad that lived in my life would grow into something else, he would be my kind of furry child forever and eventually that he and me would be able to have proper conversations.Ìý

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When you were talking about going to the pet shop and buying Boy Cat and Girl Cat on impulse it reminds me of when I was in my early 20s and I wasn't very well. I wasn't quite losing touch with reality, but did have a really, really strong sense that I had a special relationship with animals. And I went to the park one day and I was like I have this special relationship with animals, I can feel this great love for all these little furry squirrels and birds, and then all the squirrels climbed up my legs, which didn't make it any better. But I remember that. I lived in Deptford in London which is a very, very multicultural area, lots of different kinds of supermarkets and shops with different national cuisines and stuff. And outside of what I think was a Chinese supermarket there was a polystyrene box of crabs. And for a good morning I was convinced that if I went and cashed my giro I'd have enough money to buy all the crabs, and then I'd be able to set them free in the Thames. They'd all just wave their claws at me and go, "thank you, thank you for saving me".

SEANEEN- Ìý When I think about how my pets help my mental health I think about they're so cuddly. I can stroke them, and especially Boy Cat he was the most affectionate cat in the world, he was like a dog. He would stroke you back.Ìý

MARK-Ìý Aw.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý Like he would actually sit behind us on the chair and stroke our hair. He was lovely. He was the best cat. No offence Girl Cat, you're great too.Ìý

MARK-Ìý Hopefully she's not listening to this.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý She's downstairs with a little gun. But when I think about why my pets help it's like the physical stuff, they're so soft. There's something kind of meditative about stroking a cat. And that purr as well, that lovely sound, that lovely rumbly little happy sound. And it's just this kind of peace. But then we hear about other people's pets and people have things like snakes, they have spiders even. I know someone he has a tarantula, which to me is like absolute horror. I would scream if I had one in my house. But equally they found having a tarantula helps. People find having turtles helps. They get different things from pets. And that's what's kind of amazing about them is that everyone has a different relationship with them.Ìý

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Music] So, before this episode we asked you to tell us about how your pets help your mental health, and you got in touch with us via Twitter. And it was brilliant because there was a beautiful thread of photographs of your lovely animals, so I want to read a couple of them out.

MARK-Ìý Yeah, everyone looks so happy. It was lovely.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý So, Fiona she sent us a picture of her very cute rabbit who had a long fringe and was super fluffy. And she said, 'having this one bouncing around the place is an absolute joy. He's my wee best mate. I'm not one to talk openly about mental health, but animals are just great, non-judgemental, no-pressure company'. Yeah, I totally agree with Fiona. That's one of the best things about animals; they're just there for you and they don't ask for anything in return, apart from your love.Ìý

MARK-Ìý Been there.

SEANEEN- Ìý I always get a bit soppy, don't I?

MARK-Ìý Talking about getting soppy, Mel shared a photograph of her lovely horse, Miranda the Wonder Mare. And she says, 'Miranda the Wonder Mare is too big to fit in my house. My late father bought her for me 14 years ago. She is my world. Soz Dave'. I'm assuming Dave is a partner. Might be our engineer, I don't know. 'Keeping her alive has meant I've had to stay alive too. Miranda has saved my life many, many times.' I think that feeling of consistency that you have with a pet is such an important thing because your relationship with your pets isn't linguistic; it's not based on what you tell them, it's based on what you show them and what they show you. And just that sense of having another creature that's there for you all the time is such an amazing, amazing thing.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý Yeah, I identify with the kind of keeping her alive has meant I've had to stay alive, that's how I feel about my cats basically. If I wasn't there to look after them then they wouldn't be there anymore, and they matter. Even when I haven't mattered to myself they matter to me.Ìý

Aidan sent us a picture of his dog, Lucky. She looks like a lovely border collie. The picture was, I don't know where they were but it was lovely, it was a sort of coastal place and lovely pup running through the sea. He says, 'Lucky says hi. She gets me out and about, even when I don't feel like it. She also drives me mad'.Ìý

MARK-Ìý I always feel a bit awkward around dogs because dogs are kind of looking to me to offer leadership and guidance and stuff like that, and I'm just not like that at all. So, dogs look at me and they just make a judgement and say, now if we were walking on the moors late at night in the fog that Herbert over there would lead us over the cliff. I'm not doing anything that that Herbert says.Ìý

So, back onto beautiful cats, Vic sent us a photo of Sparrow, who is their lovely nine-year-old rescue kitty. 'During the pits of postnatal depression she'd come and curl up next to me. Six years later she's asleep in my office chirruping at birds outside and making the occasional appearance on Teams.' I did this joke in a meeting the other week saying probably the lasting legacy of the pandemic is going to be that we've all seen far more cats' bum holes than any other people in all of history. [Laughter]

The thing that I miss most actually, aside from all the companionship and stuff like that, is the way that he'll just pop his head around the door and give that little cat chirrup just to say I'm here, kind of patrolling his little territory around the house. Head around the door, yeah you're there, I'm off to do something else. And I still kind of when I'm tired or I'm sad things that are kind of cat shaped in the corner of my eye become my cat. Not a ghost or anything, not a vision, but just so used to seeing that little reassuring independent presence pattering around. With my cat he used to wait for me to come home from work standing in the bay window. It wasn't so much that he gave me completely kind of unequivocal support, because he was a right judgemental little beggar, like he really, really didn't like me crying. So, I'd be like oh, come here, come and sit on my chest and purr and repair my heart with your wonderful vibrations. And I'd be like, sniffling away, and he'd look me straight in the eye and swipe my nose and then just bog off.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý Pull yourself together!

MARK-Ìý (pretending to speak as the cat) "You've got opposable thumbs, what are you whingeing about." And that was kind of quite important for me was that sense of his independence, like someone who wasn't a family member, someone who didn't necessarily have any strong ideas about what I should do, apart from be comforting, feed him and be around, but still there was a kind of attraction between us. I had a relationship, and I really, really miss that. And I kind of sometimes feel like dogs are a bit like someone who wants to look after you, and cats are kind of someone who wants to travel next to you. I'm getting a bit tearful talking about this, that sense of just having someone who's not a member of your family but is a member of your family who just wants to be with you to do the things that they do.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý Yeah.Ìý

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SEANEEN: ÌýAll the videos and photos of the pets that we've chatted about are available to see on our Twitter feed @bbcouch.Ìý

MUSIC ENDS

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MARK-Ìý So, you've heard us read through some of your tweets about your lovely pets. You've heard me and Seaneen talk about our deep, heartfelt feelings about our pets. And we're now joined by James Troughton. James is a 21-year-old gaming journalist from Newcastle, and rats are a massive part of James' life. Hello James, how are you doing?Ìý

JAMES- Hi, I'm really good. I've had a good week I think. I've been playing with my rats a lot at night. They're a bit unconventional but I'm planning to get a few more next week actually, so I'm building up my little army of pets at the moment.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý How many rats have you got at the moment?Ìý

JAMES- I've got three. We started the year with about seven, so I want to try and build back up to that.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý What are they called?

JAMES- At the moment I've got Dilly, Penny and Candy, and they're all sort of adopted from we got a few from snake feeders, we got a few rescue ones.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý Can I ask why rats? Loads of people are completely terrified of rats and rats are their worst nightmare.Ìý

JAMES- Oh yeah, I've had this a lot where I sort of went to friends and said, "do you want to come and meet my rats and see my animals? They're really cute" and they're like, "no, that's horrifying". But it was down to rent where we were in a flat and we couldn't bring in dogs, we couldn't bring in cats, nothing big, so my dad got snakes and I got rats. So, we were kind of at opposing ends there.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý Opposing ends of the horror scale.Ìý

MARK-Ìý Yeah, you just have to make sure that they stay apart otherwise it's presumably a terrible, terrible scene that neither of you would enjoy.Ìý

JAMES- Oh, they're on complete opposite ends.Ìý

MARK-Ìý I've got to ask you, what's the story with Candy, Penny and Dilly? What kind of rats are they? Can you help people who maybe aren't rat people to kind of understand why rats are so awesome?

JAMES- Yeah. I adopted Dilly and Penny about a year and a half ago so they're getting on a bit. They're very cuddly, which is what happens when rats get older, they get really loving and cuddly and just want to snuggle up with you while you're watching movies and things. They're really relaxed. Candy's really young though so she's on the other side of things where she's really playful and she'll want to chase your hand around.Ìý

MARK-Ìý Just want to settle down.Ìý

JAMES- Yeah. And she'll sort of climb all over you and run around the cage and play fight with you. And she plays hide and seek, Candy. So, they all have very different personalities and they change depending on their age, which is really nice.ÌýÌý

MARK-Ìý Aw.Ìý

JAMES- I've moved house so my dad's moved in now with my step-mum, and with that comes pets from both sides. So, my step-mum brings all her dogs, we bring the rats and the snakes. And so what I thought I'd start doing is I thought I'd introduce the rats to the dogs and see how they get along. So, it was a slow process of giving the dogs treats when they met them. And it's gotten to the point now where the rats will sit on the dog's back and clean it, they'll cuddle up to it when it's sleeping and they've sort of become quite good friends. And I'll walk in sometimes on a night and the dog will reach up to the cage and sort of look at them and then they'll be staring at each other. And they really do get along. It's nice to see they form bonds with about anything that gives them attention, which is really nice.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý I empathise with that feeling. [Laughter]

JAMES- They're really friendly with each other. You can tell they're compassionate. We had one rat that was I think three years old, which is far past how long they normally live, and she could barely move. She just sort of lay around all day chilling in her bed basically. And Snow, which was one of my little Rex rats, which is like sheep fur, and she had red eyes, she was an albino, she used to go and bring food when we'd fill the bowl to the other rat because all the others would jump to the bowl to grab the food, and it would be the sort of aggressive show of getting as much as you can in your mouth. And she couldn't take part in that, and there'd be very little left at the end. And so she would come along, bring food. And she used to build her little beds and nests that she'd sleep in that were quite comfortable, and we'd put cardboard boxes in that she would sleep in, because they quite like being hidden. And Snow carved out a little window on the side which she'd stick her head out to see us so she didn't have to come out. Yeah, they take care of each other. They're really cute.

SEANEEN- Ìý That is adorable.Ìý

MARK-Ìý That's hit me right in my heart that.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý They made a window. How sweet!

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How have the rats helped your mental health? We've been talking about needing someone to look after them; have you found that the case with your animals?

JAMES- Yeah. I have had a few scares in the past few months where I've felt probably at my lowest, and I've not felt like I could keep going. Like I didn't see a future for myself. But having the rats there as someone to go back to has always helped because it feels like I've got someone to sort of look after and a reason. I went to a bridge a few months ago. I had a day out with friends, and I sort of covered it well, but the whole time I was thinking, you know, I'm just not happy. And then I sort of had an idea in my mind and I did nearly do it. But I did call up the Samaritans and we were talking a lot, and the big thing that sort of really kept me going there was just I've got something to go back to and something to take care of that does need me. And I think for me it's hard to plan ahead; it's hard to see a future when you don't really want one. But when you have your rats or your pets or anything like that it's just at least I have something immediate that I can do that I can feel productive about, something that's instantly helpful.Ìý

MARK-Ìý James, mate, it sounds awful. I'm really glad that you felt like there was still someone or something to come home to.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý You have trouble sleeping, but rats are nocturnal; is that helpful or do they keep you up?Ìý

JAMES- They used to keep me up the first little while I had them because they were really loud. But then you sort of start to blank it out entirely. But yeah, I've been dealing with insomnia since I was about 14 so I've sort of gotten used to sleepless nights every other week, four to five hours a night sometimes. But the big thing is just you can go to their cage at night and they'll be active. I mean, I live with dogs now and they'll be fast asleep, lying on the floor and not doing anything, but if I go to see the rats then they're running around playful, wanting to cuddle, wanting to get out, wanting to hang around with me. And it's perfect because I'm always up at 3am, they're always up at 3am so we're sort of in synch with each other, which I've never had with any other pet really.Ìý

MARK-Ìý So, James, if anyone was thinking about getting a rat or some rats what are your big tips? You are now the rat master of Newcastle, so give us the best tips you've got.Ìý

JAMES- They're really social. You can't really have one rat; you have to have at least two because if not they get depressed themselves. They really need companionship. And another big part of that is they need playing with every day. I think for me it's about an hour every night where I'll just sit with them on the sofa while I read. But aside from that they're quite low maintenance. You clean the cage out once a week, you refill their water and give them food and they're quite happy. They're quite easy to take care of.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý We mentioned at the beginning that you're a gaming journalist. I love games as well. I'm not like a hardcore Twitch or Discord person but I do find games really helpful for my anxiety. Do you find games helpful for your mental health?Ìý

JAMES- Yeah. I think that's always been a big part of it. I'll have comfort games that I'll always go back to, things like Skyrim or Dark Souls or Minecraft; there are so many different things in gaming that really help me. And I think a big part of it is the familiarity.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý Yeah.Ìý

JAMES- There's a sort of comfort in the nostalgia which I don't find anywhere else. And it's just something as well where, especially in the pandemic, I don't have to go out and put so much energy into socialising. I can just go into a party with a friend for a few hours and I'm happy. So, yeah, I think alongside rats gaming is probably the second biggest thing for helping me with mental health.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý Thank you so much for chatting to us, James, about your beautiful rats.

JAMES- No worries. It's been great meeting you. Thanks for having me on.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý If you have been listening in and are curious, you can see photos and videos of Candy, Penny and Dilly on our social media. And you will also be able to see photos of the pets we chatted about earlier that you shared on Twitter.Ìý

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[Warning sirens sound]

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SEANEEN- Ìý Welcome to our brand-new feature: shittiest mental health advice you've ever received.Ìý

MARK-Ìý Da, da, da!

SEANEEN- Ìý Da, da, da! As seasoned mentalists we are always looking out for things that might help us feel better, but one thing we don't like is people giving us their unsolicited mental health advice. Mark, what kind of weird or rubbish mental health advice have you received in the past?Ìý

MARK-Ìý Well, I think I've mentioned this on a previous podcast, but a member of my family when they were aware that I was having some difficulties with my mental health kind of said, "are you sure that the reason you're having mental health difficulties isn't because you're not eating the food you were weaned on?" And I was trying to be very, very kind of gentle, very, very pleasant, and I just thought…

SEANEEN- Ìý Don't you get weaned on kind of like mashed sweet potatoes anyway?Ìý

JAMES- I was just going to say, like what, liquidised egg custard, what do you mean? Are you suggesting that if I wanted to feel better a return to breast milk would be the answer? It was such a weird thing. And what I think was going on there was the idea that somehow at a very particular age that I'd just gone wrong somehow; I'd made a series of really bad choices, and one of those bad choices was to stop eating meat. Almost as if deciding to be a vegetarian was somehow pathological in itself. Like how could anyone, if they weren't a bit odd in the head, resist the temptation of a bacon sandwich with brown sauce? So, I kind of think it was almost like advice trying to pull you back to the path of healthiness, almost like get back in your lane. Sometimes the sad advice that happens for people with mental health difficulties and people with other disabilities is don't get your hopes up, don't try and change how your life turns out, don't aspire to anything, don't aspire to things turning out differently; you have a place and you have a time and you have a purpose, and just reconcile yourself with that. And I might be reading too much into it. Maybe they just thought I looked a bit peaky and just did lots of smelly trumps, and maybe that's what they thought was wrong.Ìý

I find it really hard when people give you terrible advice, because I don't want to be an absolute prawn about it and just laugh in their face and be awful, but sometimes advice is really, really terrible.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý It's often really, really terrible in my experience. Some of my terrible mental health advice: probably the most terrible mental health advice I've ever received was an email I got through my blog, and it was a man who was extremely passionate about flexing your bum cheeks for mental health. There was a whole screen basically saying that in order to maintain your mental health and to fight depression what you have to do is flex your bum cheeks 100 times a day. I don't even know if I have bum cheeks. I'm trying to do it now.Ìý

MARK-Ìý Is that because sadness collects in your posterior when you sit down?

SEANEEN- Ìý Yeah, your bum.Ìý

MARK-Ìý You squeeze it out just like toothpaste?

SEANEEN- Ìý Yeah, just like squeeze that sadness out of your bum. And I'm trying; it's not happening. But that was the weirdest advice. But some of the worst advice has been, you're right, you do often just get bad advice and I think this is a thing that anybody with any sort of health problem or disability might identify with, is that you're not actually looking for advice when you talk about things.Ìý

MARK-Ìý Yeah.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý Like I think there's an idea that if you share any experiences you're kind of waiting for the input, like hey, tell me what you think. And that's not it. It's listen, listen to me, not try and fix me.

MARK-Ìý Yeah. It's definitely true with mental health and I imagine it's the same with other chronic conditions and disabilities that people ultimately are wondering why are you telling me this about what I would think would be a very personal thing. So, if you're telling me this thing you must be looking for me to solve it. And most of the time you're not. You're just expressing what your reality is and the things you've experienced. I think back a lot to when I was young because, as I said before, I grew up in Newcastle in a time and a place where we weren't doing that much in terms of psychological and mental health and [inferiority?]. So, I would approach people and tell them that I hadn't feeling very good, I was feeling very sad, I was feeling very anxious. And the response was always kind of like, 'well, I'll tell you what I'd try, what I would try would be not being sad'. [Laughter] And it's really weird.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý Did it work?

MARK-Ìý Well, I sat there and I was concentrating really, really hard, clenching my buttocks and unclenching them, and it didn't make any difference at all.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý We'll being unfair to the general public here though. It's not just the general public that gives bad advice. I've had really rubbish advice from mental health crisis teams. If you don't know what a mental health crisis team is they are kind of like the elite squad of mental health nurses, social workers, psychiatrists, and basically they try to keep you out of hospital, so they would visit you at home or over the phone. During one of those periods I was kind of experiencing a manic episode, it was sort of rising up, so it had gone from sort of manageable hyperness to okay, I don't sleep and I'm starting to hear things. And the advice I got from the crisis team was to make a camomile tea. They were really specific about it: it wasn't camomile teabags, they wanted me to get the actual herbs and make tea.

MARK-Ìý Really?

SEANEEN- Ìý I was like that's definitely something I can do in inner city London going through hell in my head. And, you know, safe to say a few days later I was in hospital and had a lot of strong antipsychotic drugs pumped through my system, which did the job.Ìý

MARK-Ìý Do you think it's okay to be fed up when you get unsolicited or poor advice from people? Do you find a kind of responsibility not to put people off?Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý Oh I don't know. I'm an old woman now Mark, and it's been a long time of unsolicited advice. I think I'm probably less polite than I was. I was, oh yeah, thanks for your thoughts. Now it's like, yup never thought of that in my life before. It's like, 'hey so do you know that getting some extra sleep can help your mood' It's like, yes I do, I also have a ten-month old child. Or like, 'okay, so have you tried to have a bath to help your mental health?'. It's like, yeah when I get the time to myself, which is never. I have to say the camomile tea advice was really rubbish but down the line I started a fairly strong herbal tea habit to try and replace my very strong smoking habit.

MARK-Ìý Did it work?Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý No.Ìý

MARK-Ìý Would you advise me to do the same?

SEANEEN- Ìý Er, no.

MARK-Ìý Setting a trap for you to give terrible advice. [Laughter]

SEANEEN- Ìý Here's my terrible advice to your terrible advice. But I mean, I understand its coming from a good place. People are usually not trying to annoy you by giving advice. And when you ask for it that's great. If you're listening and you're thinking about giving someone advice just be mindful are they actually asking for it, and if they are then go for it because it's always great to hear what people think if you want to know. But otherwise maybe don't. And keep going with your bum flexes.

Ìý[Music] You've been listening to Mentally Interesting from ´óÏó´«Ã½ Ouch with Mark Brown and me, Seaneen Molloy.Ìý

MARK-Ìý We've absolutely loved talking about our pets and we've absolutely loved reading about yours, and talking to James about his. Keep sending your messages in about your pets, mostly because we absolutely blooming love them. There's a selection of your thoughts and videos on our Facebook, just search for ´óÏó´«Ã½ Ouch. Search on Twitter @bbcouch. And also on Instagram where we're known as Ouch ´óÏó´«Ã½. Thank you for listening.Ìý

SEANEEN- Ìý Thanks for listening. Bye.Ìý

MARK-Ìý Bye. See you.

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