大象传媒

Mentally Interesting Episode 920 January 2022bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast
Presented by Mark Brown and Seaneen Molloy
Music-Featuring upcoming clips.
Mark-聽This is Mentally Interesting with Mark Brown and Seaneen Molloy.
Seaneen-聽And we鈥檙e here on your Ouch feed throughout January 2022. We鈥檙e friends with mental health difficulties and we love talking about all that crazy mad stuff that it brings.聽Mark-聽And in this episode we鈥檙e going to be talking about another amazingly on-brand, on-topic subject for us, which is loneliness.
厂别补苍别别苍-听贬辞辞谤补测.
Mark-聽But don鈥檛 worry, we鈥檙e also going to be talking about the opposite of loneliness which is the nice things like how the internet can be a lovely place, how people can be kind and how we can all find places to belong.聽
Seaneen-聽Our guest is Shuranjeet Singh who works to improve how mental health is dealt with in Punjabi communities.
Mark-聽And at the end of the episode we will be having another brand new, fantastic, amazing unheralded feature, and this time it鈥檚 about the death of Seaneen Molloy.
Seaneen-聽Just to say I died for a bet.聽
Mark-聽So, listen to the end of the episode to find out what the devil that鈥檚 all about.聽
[Music] Seaneen, loneliness, is it something you experience?聽
Seaneen-聽Yeah, I mean all my life basically. Did you ever hear the quote by Mary Shelley? It鈥檚 鈥渓oneliness, the word has more horror than hell itself鈥� which I thought was a great quote. I think just the actual experience of living with a mental health problem makes you lonely because you sort of always feel a bit different.聽
惭补谤办-听驰别补丑.
Seaneen-聽When I was a teenager I just felt like I was on a different planet to everyone else. To be fair I behaved that way as well. Total space cadet.聽
Mark-聽Which planet was it?
Seaneen-聽The planet of first ever manic episode, which was the planet where I thought I was a famous comedian and was going to be famous in London. And didn鈥檛 sleep for about a year it felt like, but was only a couple of months. I just felt different, and I鈥檝e always felt different. And I think my mental health has sort of scuppered quite a lot of my life. Like it ruined my education. I had to drop out of school because of my mental health. I had a couple of interesting employment experiences, let鈥檚 put it that way. And that鈥檚 what everyone talks about, isn鈥檛 it, they talk about their education and their jobs. And I feel like I have to lie a little bit about what happened and I feel like I can鈥檛 really be honest about my experiences. And it just makes me feel a bit like a lonely sad sack.聽
Mark-聽Yeah, I used to have that loads. When I was much younger, when I was at school, people used to call me glaky, which in Newcastle where I鈥檓 from glaky means like a bit not quite all there. And the kind of boy I was, I was kind of a bit clever and I read loads of books. And one of the things about loneliness I think is not having anyone around you who can meet you halfway in the things that you鈥檙e interested in and the things that you鈥檙e kind of thinking about. And I found it really, really hard because Newcastle was a bit of football, booze, birds, fighting kind of place, and that鈥檚 not really where I was coming from. When I was very young I kind of spent ages feeling like I somehow by some strange accident had become this creature, why isn鈥檛 there a world for me to live in. Going back to Mary Shelley actually, very much like the monster from Frankenstein鈥檚 monster, like you鈥檝e made me but not made me a world to live in. And I spent so much time when I was younger just in a very, very stereotypical way just tramping the streets in my German army coat with a pretentious paperback sticking out of my pocket in the hope that some friendly lovely poet/artist would just spot me and go, oh you鈥檙e reading a book there and it鈥檚 by an author, would you like to come to our house and we could sit on rugs and we could discuss art and beauty.聽
Seaneen-聽Oh, we would have been friends if we鈥檇 known each other. I was very similar. I didn鈥檛 really rock the German army stripes or leopard print. I was just like I鈥檓 a Manic鈥檚 fan, come and talk to me about the Manic Street Preachers and we鈥檒l be friends forever, just like signposting so someone would come and be my friend and invite me to their house, and maybe we鈥檇 have dinner. I don鈥檛 know. What do people do in people鈥檚 houses?
Mark-聽I still don鈥檛 know what people do in people鈥檚 houses. When I go round to people鈥檚 houses I just kind of sit there waiting to be offered biscuits. And then they go, would you like a biscuit. And I go, oh no thank you, no thank you, as though I was like five or something.聽
Seaneen-聽This was the good thing about the internet though because suddenly there are almost too many people that have your interests.聽聽
Mark-聽The arrival of the internet in kind of 2002 when I was unemployed was kind of a really big turning point for me, because even then I was like 23, 24 I think, and I still didn鈥檛 really know who I was supposed to be, and I didn鈥檛 really know who I was supposed to be with. And I鈥檇 kind of meet people socially and stuff like that and I would just feel like all of my words sounded like two lumps of iron banging together or a load of bricks falling into a well, when everyone else鈥檚 conversation was all light and airy and sounded like xylophones and windchimes. And I just thought there鈥檚 no place for me to talk about the stuff that鈥檚 really important to me. And it feels like when you don鈥檛 get a chance to talk about what鈥檚 important it just kind of goes off inside of you like some salad in the bottom of the fridge.
Seaneen-聽Curdling milk going all lumpy and sour.
Mark-聽Yeah, it starts off all pristine and lovely and like it might go somewhere, you might make a beautiful sandwich of yourself, but then by the end of it it鈥檚 just like, like you say, a load of lumps and brown liquid. It was like an absolute revelation to find that there might be other communities, there might be other places, there might be other people not limited by like geographical exposure. Was that like that for you?
Seaneen-聽Yeah. I mean, right just a quick background on Belfast. So, I鈥檓 from Belfast and back in the day when I was a teenager they鈥檇 only really just had the Good Friday Agreement. The Good Friday Agreement, for anyone who doesn鈥檛 know what I鈥檓 talking about, was something signed on Good Friday in 1998, which was basically ending the civil war in Northern Ireland between Loyalists and Republicans. It was establishing a devolved government, so we have the Northern Ireland Assembly now, so we weren鈥檛 being ruled entirely from Westminster. And it was keeping the question about a united Ireland on the table. So, it was a really, really massive thing in Northern Ireland. We got leaflets through the door, that鈥檚 how big it was. And it鈥檚 still a massively important thing; it鈥檚 basically how Northern Ireland is governed, and everyone sort of has to adhere to its principles. The city is pretty much segregated across political lines and Republican or Loyalist areas.聽
I grew up in a Republican area so I grew up on like a Republican estate, and it was hard to socialise outside your area, outside your patch because you never really knew how you were going to be received by the other side. There was only really one place in the city centre where kind of weirdos would congregate. And honest to God it was like the best peace project in the world because it was people coming from all parts of the city without regard for the other person鈥檚 religion, and being friends. But you had to really put an effort in to finding those kinds of spaces. And putting effort in as a teenager with a mental illness was quite difficult. So, I took a lot of solace in the internet. I would go round to people鈥檚 houses just to use their internet. I was absolutely fascinated by it. It was just like I kind of got a bit addicted, I still am, I kind of got hooked. And when I was lonely in my bedroom the internet was sort of my window to the world really, it was my gateway to feeling like I was, I don鈥檛 know, part of a community, that I belonged somewhere.聽
Mark-聽God, I feel proper jealous now because like鈥�
Seaneen-聽You were 23 yeah, I was a teen.聽
惭补谤办-听驰别补丑. Like when I was a teenager you were limited to what you could see, what you could hold and who you could meet. I remember when I left school I was unemployed and when I was 19 my Friday night and Saturday night was ridiculously sad: I would get some cans, drink them at home preening myself in front of the mirror, putting my make-up on, dancing in front of the mirror, getting nicely sauced up, and then I鈥檇 go into the centre of Newcastle on my own and I would go to a club and then just sit nodding my head along with the music in the hope that something would happen. And sometimes it did and sometimes it was good, and sometimes it was less good, but it wasn鈥檛 like a social life.聽
And my life really only started when I left Newcastle I think. I moved as far away as I could initially to Oxford, and then I moved to Surrey, and then I moved to London to go to university. And I was still kind of chasing that idea that somewhere there鈥檚 a place for us, like in West Side Story, [singing] somewhere. Do you still feel like that that sense of loneliness and isolation, of feeling weird and then having almost like a certificate to prove you were weird kind of sticks with you?
Seaneen-聽I never have really found my group. I鈥檝e never really felt there was a group of people or a place I really belong. And I still feel that way. Like when I left London it was almost like I never existed there. I left no mark, you know what I mean?
Mark-聽Well, you left me.
Seaneen-聽I left you, I left my Mark. But I didn鈥檛 really leave like a group of friends or anything. I mean, the internet is great, I鈥檓 very positive about it, but the problem is when you invest too much in those relationships you kind of neglect your relationships offline with people. And I think I鈥檝e never really put as much effort into meeting people in real life because at my kind of heart I鈥檓 an introvert.
Mark-聽Me too.
Seaneen-聽And I don鈥檛 really want people in my space. I like living in a city partly for the anonymity. Although Belfast is a bit of a weird city in that sense because it is a bit like everyone knows your name kind of thing. Everyone will know your ma; someone will know your family.
Mark-聽I wouldn鈥檛 be able to hack that at all.
Seaneen-聽I get in a taxi it鈥檚 like, oh what鈥檚 your name. Seaneen. Oh what鈥檚 your surname. Molloy. Ah, you鈥檙e Jo鈥檚 niece. It鈥檚 like, yes I am.聽
Mark-聽Oh no, that fills me with terror. I have this kind of weird thing about like a fear of being too known and too intricately involved in other people鈥檚 lives. Maybe that comes from that sense of feeling very, very visible when I was younger from not being very well, being a bit weird, being glaky, being 6ft 4 which does make you a bit noticeable as well. I sometimes feared that were I to become too intimate and too involved with people that A, I could be cast out if I did the wrong thing; and B, I鈥檇 be some kind of terrible, terrible, terrible cost for that. That feeling of feeling lesser because of having experienced mental health difficulties when I was younger still comes through in my reticence to get super involved with people as I get older.聽
Seaneen-聽I鈥檓 the same. And it is partly because I still live with mental illness but it鈥檚 less visible because I am more introverted. There are things I can鈥檛 do basically because of it. like I can鈥檛 cook for example; I will burn the house down. I struggle with some, I need to be chucked in the shower or bath sometimes.聽
Mark-聽Me too.
Seaneen-聽But back in the day it was so much more visible and embarrassing. I don鈥檛 know. I鈥檓 scundered. Scundered is a Northern Irish word for being embarrassed. The feeling of being scundered has never left me so I sort of self-isolate so I don鈥檛 scunder myself in front of anybody.聽
[Music] Something else that makes me feel lonely and isolated is Mental Health Awareness week. Week 鈥� there鈥檚 like six of them 鈥� weeks.
Mark-聽There are loads of them.聽
Seaneen-聽There are loads, yeah. I can鈥檛 avoid it because I work in mental health comms and that鈥檚 the busiest time of the year. Obviously I want to do my job well and stuff, and they are important weeks, but on a personal level I just don鈥檛 like them because I struggle. There are so many happy recovery stories and you see people kind of speaking out and getting support and I鈥檓 just really jealous. It鈥檚 petty but I鈥檓 jealous. It鈥檚 like where鈥檚 my shiny recovery story? And where鈥檚 all my people contacting me? And where鈥檚 my big circle of people looking after me? Just to add here, because I feel bad, I am married and have a child, two children actually, so I鈥檓 not completely alone. But yeah, I just feel a bit jealous. I feel a bit like, well, where鈥檚 it for me?
Mark-聽But there鈥檚 a difference there because when you鈥檙e telling your story in awareness week it鈥檚 very different from being present with someone who鈥檚 close to you. I think it鈥檚 really easy to commend someone for talking about something difficult when you know they鈥檙e never going to be your friend and you鈥檙e never going to see them living through the after-effects of that experience. Recovery stories I think a lot of people who experience mental health difficulties find them difficult because they just tie up all of the loose ends and imply that you will have a period of stuff that鈥檚 bad and then you鈥檒l just鈥�
Seaneen-聽Then be fine forever.聽
Mark-聽Yeah, you鈥檒l just be ordering conservatories and having city breaks in spa towns across the country and everything will be great.聽
Seaneen-聽I used to call it the recovery kitchen. You know when those stories are in the press there are often people standing in like a really, really shiny kitchen.聽
Mark-聽You know if you鈥檝e recovered from a mental health difficulty when you have an island in your kitchen.聽
Seaneen-聽And a really classy clay cup. Nothing from Tesco, just this kind of made even by your own hands, and you鈥檙e drinking your herbal tea from it looking into the camera.聽
Mark-聽Do you think it鈥檚 easy to feel left out during awareness weeks?
Seaneen-聽Oh my God, yes. There鈥檚 a big massive group of people left out of mental health awareness weeks, and it鈥檚 people who are living with mental illness, currently going through it, and who aren鈥檛 treated well. I understand why they want to have positive stories, but there鈥檚 injustice in the system, there鈥檚 injustice in the psychiatric system and there鈥檚 trauma, and I think those people are really, really neglected in those weeks.聽
[Music] This is Mentally Interesting from 大象传媒 Ouch with Mark Brown and Seaneen Molloy. Our email address is ouch@bbc.co.uk, and you can subscribe to Ouch on 大象传媒 Sounds.聽
Mark-聽Loneliness, isolation, finding a place in the world, feeling like you don鈥檛 belong 鈥� we鈥檝e been talking about all of that already. You鈥檝e heard from me and Seaneen talking about those things. And now we鈥檙e going to be talking to our guest, Shuranjeet Singh, who runs an organisation called Taraki that looks at mental health in the Punjabi community. And also Shuranjeet is a very, very, very thoughtful person who will have loads of thoughts about this. So, I鈥檇 just like to welcome Shuranjeet to Mentally Interesting. Hello.聽
Shuranjeet-聽Hello, hello. Thank you for having me.聽
Seaneen-聽You know me and Mark are mentally interesting; we鈥檝e got our own mental health stories. So, what makes you mentally interesting?聽
Shuranjeet-聽Born and raised in Handsworth in Birmingham. Lived very close to the main high street, which is an amazing amalgamation of people from all over the world, cultures, communities who I鈥檝e been surrounded by for all of my upbringing. And I guess for me the difficulty came where I was transitioning from home to my undergrad, being the first in my family to leave Birmingham and go to uni, you know, at the best of times I stick out of the crow being a Sikh man with a turban and a beard, right. And I guess at home here you can exist or I felt as though I could exist as myself in a way that felt as though I just kind of blended in, and I didn鈥檛 really have to go around explaining myself to people in the way that I did at uni. During my undergrad there was a real sense of needing to explain my being and needing to give a lot of contextual information and needing to justify why I am how I am in a much higher and a much more intense way than I鈥檇 experienced during my upbringing.
Seaneen-聽So, how did that make you feel? Did you suffer from depression or anxiety when you went to university?
Shuranjeet-聽It made me isolate myself more and more socially. It made me really kind of disconnect from family, from friends, kind of finding social situations increasingly difficult, especially in crowds of more than, say, two or three people. It was all that emmeshed within other kinds of experiences, say related to body image, related to self-confidence.
Seaneen-聽So, what was different about the support you got to what other people receive?
Shuranjeet-聽There are two things that stick out in my mind. The first is having access to the types of conversations that were encouraging a reflection around mental health and a reflection around well-being, which was accessible at least for me at that point. That was something that was definitely a privilege for me to have that. And the second thing is being around friends or housemates at uni who were reciprocal of those kinds of discussions, really people who wanted to build a relationship that didn鈥檛 just rest on us being housemates.
Mark-聽It's finding some people who you mean something to and who mean something to you, and finding somewhere where you can be yourself fully seems to be like quite a good description for becoming your true self and finding who you are and where your place is in the world. It feels like this is the superhero origin story for the work that you鈥檝e gone on to do. Tell us the link between this and what you actually do. And also tell us a little bit about what Taraki is and how it links to those kind of formative Tony Stark building his iron suit in a cave kind of birth story.
Shuranjeet-聽The main thing that really got my thinking going was men鈥檚 mental health. Around this time there was a lot of discussion around men鈥檚 mental health in the media; but I remember speaking to family, friends and they would say, [Punjabi phrase] which means it鈥檚 a white person鈥檚 thing. And I didn鈥檛 necessarily blame them, in the sense that there was so much happening around men鈥檚 mental health but it was your Russell Brands, it was your Stephen Frys, and it wasn鈥檛 necessarily folks who were reflective of those I鈥檇 grown up around. So, that was the real initial push from my side which started our work at Taraki: it was noticing that there are gaps that aren鈥檛 just related to 鈥渕istakes鈥� that individuals or shortcomings that they鈥檝e made; but these are gaps that are structural gaps and these are issues with the systems that we have put in place as a society. And therefore they need to be confronted and worked towards rectifying them from a community standpoint.聽聽
Mark-聽I鈥檓 kind of guessing it鈥檚 a little bit different from sort of just putting the same old messages and the same old approaches into the mouth and the face of a man with a beard and a turban. I鈥檓 guessing that there鈥檚 something different that needs to happen. A lot of the messages are, go and play football with your mates or go down the pub and it鈥檒l be great. And this is a guess; I鈥檓 guessing this is slightly different from the gaps that you were spotting?
Shuranjeet-聽Absolutely. But there are going to be some folks it鈥檚 still the same. And so for me it wasn鈥檛 that we wanted to cover a community in a way that I thought would reflect that community. Really it鈥檚 just opening up that space for folks whose voices have been not included in this conversation, for them to come and include their voices. A couple of the particular examples that stick out for me are around say for example the role of faith-based knowledge in mental health, particularly when we鈥檙e working with Punjabi communities. Because we could very easily be talking about mindfulness and mediation and stuff鈥�
Mark-聽All of the stuff you always hear.
Shuranjeet-聽Yeah, all the stuff we always hear. And what we recognised really quickly was that there was a particular language of having those discussions with Punjabi communities that were actually based in faith-based knowledge. And this very much links into something that I experienced when I went over to my family and spoke to them about mindfulness and meditation, and they looked back at me and they said, 鈥渨e鈥檝e been doing that with you since you were born鈥�.
Mark-聽How? How does it differ? Can you give us a bit more of a concrete example of how that sort of stuff that is presented as an amazing middle class saviour鈥檚 approach to mental health has actually much more historically locked into Sikh identity and belief?聽
Shuranjeet-聽When folks are talking about mindful breathing, mindful eating, being present in the moment, taking time for yourself, all the kind of self-care related narrative around things like mindfulness and meditation. These are actually things that are very much embedded within the practice, within the Sikh faith. And these were actually things that I used to look at when I was younger, and I used to think why are we doing this, why does it say that we should try and wake up at [Punjabi phrase] which is between 3am and 5am and do [Punjabi phrase] which are particular prayers; why is it that we are encouraged to do quiet reflection; and why is it we鈥檙e encouraged to reflect with others when we want to build up our knowledge and build up our confidence through things like [Punjabi] which is essentially a collective self-reflection.聽
惭补谤办-听驰别补丑.
Shuranjeet-聽And it was only when I鈥檇 seen these conversations take place in a mindfulness and meditation capacity that they were just regurgitating a lot of the knowledge that we鈥檇 been brought up with. But the knowledge was stripped of all of its faith-based values and belief systems.
Mark-聽One of the things that doesn鈥檛 usually go down well with blokes is telling them stuff they think they already know.
Shuranjeet-聽Absolutely. And the challenge there, especially when it comes to mindfulness and meditation discussions, is you kind of have one chance at that discussion. If it doesn鈥檛 go down well you鈥檝e potentially lost your audience because you鈥檙e seen as actually talking about something you know nothing about and the audience already knows everything it needs to know about it. That鈥檚 how you lose trust in my opinion.聽
Seaneen-聽So, aside from the language, which sounds like it is something alienating because it is something inherent in the faith-based practice, what are the barriers to people from the Sikh community are facing accessing mental health support?
Shuranjeet-聽One of them is around how particularly this happens a lot with Punjabi elderly women, they will go to a doctor, go to a GP, talk about the challenges they鈥檙e experiencing, which they鈥檙e often mental health related challenges, but they would describe them in ways that are very physical. So, particular pains in your legs are a very kind of heavy chest or a heavy heart. And often they鈥檒l get scans done, they鈥檒l go for multiple appointments to see if their legs are okay, and nothing will come back. And they鈥檒l be like, actually you鈥檙e fine, there鈥檚 nothing wrong with you. And often what this means is that these usually say elderly women are really mistreated within that space. At the end of the day they鈥檙e not getting the support they need.
Seaneen-聽So, it鈥檚 just a kind of culturally different way of expressing distress really?
Shuranjeet-聽I would say a culturally different way of expressing distress and something that, for whatever reason, whether it鈥檚 related to race, gender, that it鈥檚 just very easy for people within the healthcare space to just look over.
Seaneen-聽So, since you鈥檝e started Taraki what have been some of the biggest achievements and what are you most proud of with your work?
Shuranjeet-聽I鈥檓 very proud that we鈥檝e been able to work in a way that is responsive to the diversity within our communities. So, for example we鈥檝e had ongoing work around Punjabi LGBTQ+ mental health. And the question for me very early on with that is how is someone like myself, who is Punjabi but doesn鈥檛 identify as LGBTQ+ how is it that we can actually develop infrastructure that can support these communities in a way that it鈥檚 actually led by those communities? And how can we be aware of the diversity within communities we might all automatically just think is one? Because often people will say, oh yeah, it鈥檚 just the Punjabi community. And the first thing I say to that is, yeah we might appear to be homogenous, but there is actually so much within Punjabi communities, how do we actually make sure that the folks that we might be including or the folks who we might be unintentionally excluding are going to be a part of the conversation moving forward.
Seaneen-聽If we want to know more about Taraki how can people find out?
Shuranjeet-聽They can visit our website, which is www.taraki.co.uk, that鈥檚 T-A-R-A-K-I. Have a peruse on there and see what we鈥檝e been up to.
Seaneen-聽Thank you very much.
Shuranjeet-聽Thank you both so much.
Mark-聽[Music] You鈥檙e listening to Mentally Interesting from 大象传媒 Ouch. If social media is your thing we鈥檙e 大象传媒 Ouch on Facebook and Twitter. And if you subscribe to Ouch on 大象传媒 Sounds you鈥檒l never miss an episode again.聽
Seaneen-聽This last few minutes of the show gets a little grim and there is a mention of suicide, so feel free to stop the show now if it鈥檚 not something you want to hear at the moment. Don鈥檛 worry, you鈥檙e only missing a few minutes.聽
Mark-聽And now, as is traditional, we are going to share with you our wonderful new feature, [sirens and bells] and this episode is: has anyone ever bet on you dying on the internet. So, for anyone who didn鈥檛 quite catch the jingle, we鈥檙e still a work in progress, the feature is: has anyone ever bet on you dying on the internet. My answer to that is no, but what about you Seaneen?
Seaneen-聽[Laughter] Yes.
Mark-聽Oh really?
Seaneen-聽Someone has bet on me dying on the internet. I always think about it around this time of year because it was a dead pool. They often happen on internet forums, any forum, but a dead pool is when people start the year with a list of people that they expect to die in the year. And the more people you get ticked off your list the closer you are to winning. It鈥檚 bloody horrible to be honest.聽
Mark-聽I mean, I thought Fantasy Football was rubbish, but that鈥檚 even worse.
Seaneen-聽It should be sort of more like dead pool bingo because you have to kind of get a full house. So, one year someone had me on their dead pool.
Mark-聽How did you find out about this?
Seaneen-聽Someone emailed me with a link. I really could have done without that. I don鈥檛 know why they emailed me or thought I would want to know this. And when I checked on it I was the joker card, so the kind of outsider kind of funny. Ha-ha it is so funny to be bet on dying person. So, yeah it was just not nice.
Mark-聽No, it鈥檚 not. I鈥檓 really conscious that I don鈥檛 want to do the thing of getting someone who鈥檚 experienced abuse to think through the motivations of the person who鈥檚 abused them, because I don鈥檛 really think that鈥檚 helpful. But I think for people at home they might be wondering why someone would do such an obviously scum baggy thing.聽
Seaneen-聽I think it was blogging basically, and that was a pretty rough year that, 2009. I鈥檇 been kind of publicly talking about struggling with my mental health, and this person thought then, because I was so openly struggling, maybe I will kill myself and they will get money for it.聽
Mark-聽Just how thoughtlessly mercenary is that?
Seaneen-聽Yeah basically. So, obviously I was like, there鈥檚 no chance, I am going to live forever and ever and ever now.
Mark-聽I am not going to contribute to your profits by leaving this mortal coil.
Seaneen-聽You鈥檙e not getting a tenner out of me.
Mark-聽I am very glad that that is true, and I鈥檓 going to look forward to being with you in the future in the year 2525 still making this podcast, still talking about being lonely. Was it that little amount of money?聽
Seaneen-聽Oh I鈥檓 not sure, but I think they pool money together, and then you win if you get certain amount or something. I don鈥檛 know how death lists work because I鈥檓 not a horrible person who does that kind of thing.
Mark-聽Thinking back to that time do you reckon in the wider mad-o-sphere of mental health bloggers and commenters and stuff like that, do you think people were worried that you might die that year?
Seaneen-聽Yeah. It wasn鈥檛 a good year, and nor was the year before. People were worried about me. I was in a new relationship at the time but my ex had been worried basically throughout our relationship that I was going to die. It鈥檚 a sad thing to think about. I don鈥檛 want to worry anybody. But I think it鈥檚 just one of those things, when you care about someone who鈥檚 got a mental illness it is an omnipresent worry that they might not survive it.
惭补谤办-听驰别补丑. Just to be clear for everyone at home, starting a dead pool is not the best way of conveying your concern to someone.聽So, how did it feel after that? Because we talk about these things as kind of solitary events, but you had to go on with the rest of that year and the rest of your life knowing that that had happened. Did it leave any lasting icky stuff?
Seaneen-聽It made me kind of conscious of how I was coming across. And I think I stopped blogging for a bit after that or palled it down, because I never read back things I write; I always just purge things then I don鈥檛 really edit. And I suddenly felt quite self-conscious. I felt like maybe I鈥檓 coming across in a way that I don鈥檛 really want to come across; maybe that I鈥檓 sharing too much and it鈥檚 not being taken in the way that I would like it to be taken. So, it did sort of give me pause for thought yeah.
Mark-聽But that鈥檚 horrible because that cuts off one of the means of making contact with people, the ability to be open and honest is what connects us with each other. And then some prawn with a death wish for you, not them, comes along and it鈥檚 like they鈥檝e pulled down the shutters and upped the drawbridge and then you鈥檙e in a bunker again. How did you find your way back from that?
Seaneen-聽I鈥檓 not really sure I ever did. I did wind down blogging quite a bit after that point. But to be fair it was sort of a bit of a wake-up call I guess. I do think in retrospect I shared a bit too much and I made myself quite vulnerable. It was because I was still trying to make sense of everything that was happening to me, and yeah, I was sort of seeking connection with other people. But it wasn鈥檛 always done in the healthiest ways I think. So, thanks for betting on me dying; you helped me reflect on just how much I share with the world.聽聽
Mark-聽Everything鈥檚 a learning experience.
厂别补苍别别苍-听础濒飞补测蝉.听
Mark-聽And everything you learn is always horrible. [Laughs]
Seaneen-聽But I鈥檓 still alive.
Mark-聽And I鈥檓 glad.
Seaneen-聽Thank you.聽
Mark-聽[Music] So, that鈥檚 been quite an episode, hasn鈥檛 it: loneliness and death and being bullied from afar and isolation and ill-advised attempts to meet people.
Seaneen-聽All the lovely stuff!
Mark-聽All of the amazing stuff. So, it just leaves us to say, this has been Mentally Interesting. I鈥檓 Mark Brown.
Seaneen-聽And I鈥檓 Seaneen Molloy. You can get in touch with us by email at ouch@bbc.co.uk. We鈥檙e also on Twitter @bbcouch or you can search for us on Facebook and Instagram by entering 大象传媒 Ouch. You鈥檒l find the rest of our episodes on 大象传媒 Sounds.
Mark-聽And please do get in touch with us because, as you may have heard listening to this episode, we鈥檙e sometimes a bit lonely. Until next time鈥�
Seaneen-聽Love us. Bye.
惭补谤办-听鈥�b测别.听