大象传媒

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18th March 2022

bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Ukraine War

Presented by Emma Tracey

Emma-听 Hello, and thank you for pressing play on the 大象传媒 Ouch podcast. Actually this is the very last episode from Ouch. We鈥檒l be revealing an exciting new look shortly, and there will be more about that later in this episode. 听听听

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Far more important matters are on our minds today though. We鈥檒l be speaking to two disabled women who fled their homes as a result of the war on Ukraine.听听 听听

music-听听 Featuring upcoming clips. 听听听听听听听听听听听 听听听

Emma-听 I鈥檓 Emma Tracey. And just to say that the two stories you鈥檙e going to hear in this episode were recorded much earlier in the invasion. Since then we鈥檝e seen so much devastation and the fear and struggle of those still inside the country. Later you鈥檒l hear me speak to an autistic Russian journalist who felt compelled to leave her home in Moscow after an article she wrote condemning the Ukraine invasion received more attention than she was expecting. 听听听听听听听听听听听听 听听听

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 First though my colleague, Ellis Palmer, talks to Tanya Herasymova. Tanya is a wheelchair user. She鈥檚 also working for a Ukrainian disabled person鈥檚 organisation, Fight For Our Right. Tanya fled to Poland at the start of the invasion, and she begins by describing that journey. 听听听听听听听听听 听听听

Tanya-听 It was okay, but when it鈥檚 a lot of people, when people are in a panic it was really hard emotional. 听听听听听听听听听 听听听

Ellis-听听听听听听 How did you get from Lviv to safety in Poland?听 听听

Tanya-听 We don鈥檛 know what to expect on our way. We thought that we will need to walk to the border, like 8kms, and my mum was shocked. She just said to me no, you should go alone, I can do it. But thanks to people who took us to the minibus and arrived us almost to the border we didn鈥檛 need to go so long way. We only had walk to the border 50m. When I crossed the border the Polish people met us and I really wanted to cry because they were so kind. They provided all the help I needed. They helped me to catch the right bus and to go the place where I should go. It was like a miracle. And yes, we also had some stuff with us, some backpacks, but we were happy because it was a long way, we go like 22 hours. 听听听 听听听

Ellis-听听听听听听 You鈥檝e got these bags, how were you able to fit everything that you need on the back of your wheelchair?听听听听听听听听 听听

Tanya-听 Too many bags. It鈥檚 four bags. And you can鈥檛 imagine how we took it. I had a backpack on the back of my wheelchair. Also I had a backpack on my back. My mum also had a backpack. And I also had a big bag on my knees. 听听听听听听听听 听听听

Ellis-听听听听听听 Because I鈥檝e never been in your situation I don鈥檛 know, but when you are seeking to flee in refuge I鈥檓 guessing you鈥檝e got lots of different types of mobility equipment, things that you need, things that you and your mother depend on every day to be able to have the lives you have. How do you manage which ones to take and which ones to leave behind in Kamianske?听听听听听听听 听听

Tanya-听 I just know that I need to take my documents, I need to take some money and the basic stuff which I use every day. As a woman first what I took, this was my favourite dress. But then I put it out because I just thought that I will need comfortable clothes. And I just forgot the pump for the wheels. A couple of days before the invasion I realised that my wheels were a little bit broken. When I was on my way I was just thinking about my wheelchair, this is the only thing which will help me to move, and I鈥檓 caring about my wheelchair now more than about myself. 听听听听听听听听听听听听 听听听

Ellis-听听听听听听 Did they have cars that you get your chair into the back of?听听听听听听听听 听听

Tanya-听 In an accessible bus. And then some volunteers met me and took me by car to the place where I had accommodation. It was so great because I was so tired. I just wanted to go to this place where I can sleep, where I can take some hot tea, because it was so cold.听听听听 听听

Ellis-听听听听听听 How has your experience in Poland been so far, Tanya? Have people treated you well? Have things been accessible?听听听听听听听听 听听

Tanya-听 My experience is quite positive. I so appreciate all the help which the Polish people provide to me and my mum. Poland is a little bit more accessible than Ukraine. I had an accessible accommodation and there is more accessible transportation and the possibility to walk by streets by myself. At my home town I live on the fourth floor and I can鈥檛 go out without help. 听听听 听听听

Ellis-听听听听听听 So, you鈥檝e got friends, you鈥檝e got family back in Kamianske city. You must be really concerned for them? 听听听听听听听听听听听 听听听

Tanya-听 I am really concerned about my relatives, and also they are concerned about me. We鈥檙e trying to understand each other and I鈥檓 trying to understand their decision to stay in Ukraine. And they鈥檙e trying to respect my decision to leave. 听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 听听听

Ellis-听听听听听听 What is their decision to stay in Ukraine? Why have they decided to do that?听听听听听 听听

Tanya- Because that鈥檚 their home. They have no place to go. And they are feeling better when they are in their own home, in their own bed. I respect this decision. I just know that I鈥檓 not able to stay in Ukraine because I need a lot of help.听听听听听听 听听

Ellis-听听听听听听 If you鈥檇 stayed there you must have been really concerned about how you were going to evacuate?听听听听 听听

Tanya-听 There was the biggest issue. And on February 24th I went to my aunt, living in a residential house, because I was really scared to stay on the fourth floor. I know that I need a lot of time to go down, and if there is some emergency situation I will stay at home on the fourth floor, it will be really, really dangerous for me.听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 听听

Ellis-听听听听听听 In terms of the disabled people who are still in Ukraine, who haven鈥檛 taken refuge, how are they managing the situation? You see non-disabled people being able to go into bomb shelters, being able to go into metro stations; are those options accessible and available for disabled people?听听听听 听听

Tanya-听 They鈥檙e staying in their homes. And now the situation became worse because of lack of some humanitarian stuff. And we also received some request for disability equipment, like wheelchairs etc. because there are not some medical shops now. People not able to go to bomb shelters this is now a problem with food, with water. 听听听听听听听听听听听听 听听听

Ellis-听听听听听听 Your organisation, Fight For Our Right is doing a lot of work for disabled Ukrainians. If people are listening to this and may want to support disabled Ukrainians how can they do that?听听听听听 听听

Tanya-听 We have hundreds of campaigns on Go Fund Me and we weren鈥檛 expecting that people from the whole world will be so kind and will so much support us, and this is incredible. Yes, we鈥檙e trying to help people with disabilities in Ukraine now to pay for transportation, to pay for medical equipment etc. all what they need. 听听听 听听听

Emma-听 Thanks to Tanya Herasymova for telling her story, and to Ellis Palmer for bringing it to us. Ellis is a producer on NewsHour for the 大象传媒 World Service. Now for a very, very different perspective from the capital of Russia, where awareness of events in Ukraine is reportedly very low due to media crackdowns and a regime who shows their citizens something very different to what we see on our TV screens. 听听听听 听听听

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Name] is an autistic Russian journalist, and until recently she lived in Moscow. But she felt compelled to leave after an article she wrote for media outlet, [Organisation], condemning the war on Ukraine became pretty popular, and she was afraid she鈥檇 be detained by the government. When I spoke to [Name] she told me that that fear, plus sanctions and crackdowns on social media, left her struggling to cope. Here鈥檚 [Name鈥檚] story. 听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 听听听

Guest-听 I started to fall apart I think on day three of the war. I couldn鈥檛 function. I just locked myself in a dark room where I was just crying and throwing up the entire day. I couldn鈥檛 speak. I went completely non-verbal. I was shaking. I was just a complete mess, to the point I think my partner just looked at me and said, okay, we have to move, we have to go. And then he went and he鈥檚 booked the flight tickets and sorted out our escape. 听听听听听听 听听听

Emma-听 What was the journey like for you? 听听听听听听听 听听听

Guest-听 We decided to go to [Country] but we had to go through [Country]. The flight was postponed by 30 hours because some planes were sanctioned and could no longer fly. The moment I saw how long the delay was I think I just started having a meltdown. And then we were able to walk out again across the border, back into Russia, and just go home. And we stayed there for the night, and then we could go back to the airport. I am so grateful they actually let us out. I cannot imagine staying in an airport for 30 hours. That鈥檚 just too loud, too intense for me. 听听听听听听听听听 听听听

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think we only managed to exhale in relief when we crossed the border in [Country]. That was fine. I thought [Country] was really welcoming and really nice and I really liked it there. however, we got to [City] in [Country] and then there was so much graffiti on the walls all over the city that say, Russians go back to your ugly country, Russians not welcome. And that鈥檚 just really heart-breaking because we did not choose this. I don鈥檛 know anyone who supports what鈥檚 happening. I didn鈥檛 expect it to be so hostile because I am half-[Nationality] and my experience with [Country] so far has been really wholesome. 听听听听听听听听听听听听听 听听听

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We went there because logistically it was the easiest option, because it was no longer possible to fly to Europe. And [Country] is the closest country. I didn鈥檛 want to fly somewhere that鈥檚 like six hours ahead or behind. 听听听听听听听听听 听听听

Emma-听 And why not?听听听 听听

Guest-听 Well, mainly because I still have to communicate with my job and my family in Moscow time. And it鈥檚 comforting to stay somewhere that still feels relatively familiar. Most people in [Country] speak Russian. There are a lot of Russian and Belarussian and Ukrainian people in here, so it kind of feels like home, even though it鈥檚 not. 听听听听听 听听听

Emma-听 What鈥檚 life been like over the last few days that you鈥檝e been in [Country]?听听听听听听听听 听听

Guest-听 It鈥檚 been quite intensive. I feel like we鈥檙e all at our limit. We鈥檙e all at capacity, just trying to take it one day at a time. Yesterday was actually the first day in two weeks that I didn鈥檛 cry. Seeing as the bar is so low it just felt like a massive achievement. 听听 听听听

Emma-听 Yes. Where have you been staying since you got to [Country]? At hostels?听听听听听听听听听 听听

Guest-听 Yes, we鈥檝e been staying at a couple of different hostels and hotels. The one we鈥檙e at now is quite nice because it鈥檚 quite remote and quiet. The first one was not very comfortable. It was really loud, really cold, and I think I woke up in the morning and I just started having a mental, like a meltdown because it was too much. 听听 听听听

Emma-听 Have you found new ways to self-regulate? Have you found new ways of accommodating your needs? How has it worked?听听听听听听听听听听听听听 听听

GUEST- I鈥檓 still trying to find such ways. I think I鈥檝e been feeling that I honestly just don鈥檛 have time, and I cannot afford to fall apart. But the past few days I鈥檝e just basically been staying inside and just trying to calm down and not overstimulate myself. Never being alone anymore and not having any stability is hard. 听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 听听听

Emma-听 Will you ever go back to Russia, do you think? 听听 听听听

Guest-听 I hope so. Probably not for a long time. It鈥檚 a really strange feeling to realise that you鈥檙e basically a criminal in your own home, somewhere that鈥檚 supposed to protect you and make you feel safe. Because by the new Russian laws if you speak out against what鈥檚 happening in Ukraine, if you don鈥檛 use the correct terminology, if you say something that contradicts the position of the State you can go to jail for up to 15 years. So, I did not want to risk it. I think as an autistic person I would hate being in jail, even though it鈥檚 stability and it鈥檚 quite a predictable environment; I don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 very friendly. So, I probably will not go back any time soon. 听 听听听

Emma-听 I guess we can鈥檛 talk about long-term future, but even the next couple of months what are your plans?听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 听听

Guest-听 Yes, you鈥檙e so right, it鈥檚 impossible to even think about long-term future at this point. I think our goal right now is to find a permanent place to live. And probably also look for new jobs because I really struggle to see how it鈥檚 possible to work in a Russian company in media. 听听听听 听听听

Emma-听 It sounds very uncertain. 听听听听听听听听听听听听 听听听

Guest-听 Yeah. But, I don鈥檛 know, I鈥檝e met so many wonderful people. Honestly it鈥檚 not all so bad. For example, there is a family of Ukrainian refugees living next door in our hostel, and when I first met them I was so confused. I felt so guilty, I just wanted to cry and I wanted to apologise to them on behalf of my country. But they were so wonderful and so understanding. The mother she made us tea and sandwiches and we just sat for an hour and talked about how much this sucks. They told me their story about how they barely survived and how they escaped. And now we just keep in touch and trying to help each other figure out to live in [Country], how to find accommodation, how to open a bank account; just exchanging information. So, in a way I think this crisis is bringing a lot of people together. 听听听听听听听听听听听 听听听

Emma-听 Thanks to [Name] and to Tanya for sharing their stories with us. We鈥檙e interested to hear from you if you鈥檙e disabled or an ally to disabled people and are affected by the war on Ukraine. Email accessall@bbc.co.uk to get in touch. 听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 听听听

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 A surprise new email address for you there. Access All is the name of a new weekly disability news podcast, presented by Nicky Fox. And I鈥檒l be back in your ears then too, reporting on the disability stories that matter to you. The new pod launches at the end of April. We鈥檒l be a bit quiet while we get it ready, but you don鈥檛 need to do anything. We鈥檒l be back on this very feed to tell you more soon.听听听听听 听听

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 Emma Tracey, and it just remains for me to say thank you for being awesome and for sticking with the award winning Ouch podcast through 16 years of various changes. We appreciate it a lot. 听听听听听听听听听 听听听

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Music] Stay subscribed to this feed and, well, talk soon. 听听听听听听听听听听听听