大象传媒

EMMA- I am born blind. Colours mean nothing to me. We had a painter in painting a bedroom yesterday and my husband had gone swimming wit the kids, and the painter said, 鈥淪o what colour do you want this room?鈥� I was like, 鈥淥h god, Robin said something about mushroom. He said something about pink sand鈥�.

NIKKI- Nice.聽

EMMA- And they were like, 鈥淎ha鈥�. I actually said, 鈥淟ook I am the actual worst person to ask this question and we鈥檙e going to have to, he didn鈥檛 write it down for me, so we鈥檙e going to have to wait until he comes back鈥�.

NIKKI- So, do colours not have any impact? I wear a lot of pink; does that make you feel anything when you hear pink?

EMMA- I think it鈥檚 not a dark colour, so it鈥檚 probably a bright colour mostly. There are probably dark pinks but probably not that dark. And also girlie, cute; they鈥檙e all the things that I think of when I think of pink.聽

NIKKI- That鈥檚 good, yeah.

EMMA- Or meat that鈥檚 not fully cooked.聽

NIKKI- Yeah, that鈥檚 kind of how I like it. Brown, what do you think about brown?

EMMA- I think of tans and brown skin, lovely brown, and chocolate and stuff. But then there鈥檚 also a dirty brown. So, I find it hard to know one is the other, but I just go with it. So, I just think of the things depending on what the context is.

NIKKI- What about green?聽

EMMA- Grass, Ireland.

NIKKI- Yeah.

EMMA- The colour the face goes when you鈥檙e going to be sick.聽

NIKKI- You're very good! How did you learn all this stuff?

EMMA- Well, these are word. I know words, I don鈥檛 know colours. Feelings, I know feelings.聽

NIKKI- As Damon did point out in the gallery, you don鈥檛 actually go green when you鈥檙e sick; it鈥檚 just sort of a saying, isn鈥檛 it? I could have gone green that day I did the podcast when I wasn鈥檛 very well because I鈥檇 gone out the night before. I felt a bit green that day.

EMMA- But is not like a greenish tinge, grey, then sort of green?

NIKKI- You mainly go pale and sweaty to be honest.

EMMA- So, why do they say green if it鈥檚 not true?

NIKKI- Well, exactly. There we go, we鈥檝e stumbled on something here.聽

EMMA- What? You鈥檝e ruined my day now.聽

NIKKI- Sorry, Ems.

MUSIC- Theme music.聽

NIKKI- Hello, and welcome to Access All, the 大象传媒鈥檚 disability and mental health podcast, which is really just Emma and I having our weekly catch-up.

EMMA- Yeah, our weekly get stuff off your chest from the week about disability pretty much.

NIKKI- Well, it鈥檚 so lovely to be back. I missed you all. I鈥檓 Nikki Fox and I am in London.聽

EMMA- And I鈥檓 Emma Tracey in Edinburgh.

NIKKI- And later we are going to be hearing from actor, Melissa Johns.聽

MELISSA- I would just get myself into the most ridiculous situations. I would get to dates early so I could plan which side I鈥檇 be sitting. I鈥檇 go to the kitchen and ask the chef to cut my food up for me. I would choreograph sex. I literally became this master of manipulation.聽

NIKKI- Stay listening to find out what that was all about.聽

EMMA- Nikki, do you like shopping?聽

NIKKI- No. No, do you know what, I don鈥檛 love it, Emma. I mean, obviously I鈥檝e shopped in the shops. I used to when I was younger go round our local shopping centre pretty much every weekend, had a little browse, got some bronzing balls, came home. But as I鈥檝e got older I鈥檝e tended to do everything online now.聽

EMMA- I鈥檝e done a bit of shopping this week and I have to be honest, it鈥檚 been quite frustrating, even in the shops that I鈥檓 quite familiar with online wise. So, my supermarket stopped showing me product descriptions there for a while, and stopped putting my basket items in a list that I could properly follow.聽

Have you heard of the purple pound? It refers to the spending power of disabled households, so households with a disabled person in them. And it鈥檚 estimated to be worth 拢274 billion.聽

NIKKI- 拢274 billion! Billion! Billion!

EMMA- Yeah. So, new research from the Business Disability Forum kind of tells us what a lot of us already know, that the purple pound money isn鈥檛 being tapped into by lots of businesses. I mean, 90% of people who took part in the research said they struggled with shopping because the information wasn鈥檛 there or the shop accessibility wasn鈥檛 good. And 43% said that they actually gave up on a purchase because it was just too hard.聽

NIKKI- Well, let鈥檚 talk about this more actually because we鈥檙e joined 鈥� well I鈥檓 in the studio with him, Emma, I鈥檓 sorry you鈥檙e not 鈥� the lovely Harry. And we鈥檝e got Fearne online somewhere. Hello Fearne.

FEARNE- Hello.聽

NIKKI- Fearne, I鈥檓 going to start with you. Can you just tell us a bit about yourself and how your disability affects how you shop?

FEARNE- Yeah sure. My disability I have inflammatory arthritis in my joints, and fatigue, and bowel issues. So, I generally use crutches, but I don鈥檛 have access to a mobility scooter. But I do find shopping out and about in person very difficult because I have to really research how far a shop is from where I鈥檓 parking and if I can get round. Amazon, I find it a lot easier to return products because if they don鈥檛 fit or they鈥檙e not suitable for me then I can just pop down the nearest shop and return it. But a lot of the information I need just isn鈥檛 on the description, so it is frustrating.聽

EMMA- So, do you end up having to send back a lot of things then?聽

FEARNE- I鈥檓 worried that Amazon are going to flag me as a fraudulent shopper because I return so many parcels. Because if I鈥檓 buying mobility aids or medical devices or just day-to-day living kind of things they鈥檙e not going to be suitable so I send them back.聽

EMMA- If the information you need isn鈥檛 on the packaging how do you find out what you need to know about the product to try and avoid sending it back?

FEARNE- I go by recommendations through like the disabled community on TikTok, through like videos and that kind of thing. I just have to do a hell of a lot of googling basically.

EMMA- And what sort of stuff do you need to know about a product?聽

FEARNE- Clothing, I like trousers with pockets, which is a definite woman problem, because if I鈥檓 moving around with crutches I like to store things in my pockets. If like zips or toggles and things on jeans are going to bubble my back, descriptions of clothing online don鈥檛 show that kind of thing. It鈥檚 only till you get it in person and you can touch it and feel it that you really know. So, it鈥檚 just so difficult.聽

NIKKI- As well as shops on the high street there are plenty of lovely coffee shops. I love my coffee. It鈥檚 one of my biggest joys in life. I try to nip into as many coffee shops as I physically can. But they can also be a challenge when it comes to access.聽

EMMA- There is one coffee chain, Nikki, that is trying to buck that trend. SEND coffee, S-E-N-D coffee, has three coffee shops, and it鈥檚 focused on providing barista employment opportunities for disabled people. The founder is Harry George and he is with you.聽

NIKKI- I love this. Just tell our listeners why you started this, what it is, just hit me, Harry?

HARRY- Yes, obviously I didn鈥檛 start out to be a philanthropist or non-profit founder. Like most young men from a council estate I wanted to make a lot of money, and I started getting into restaurants, bars, caf茅s and opening caf茅s. And very luckily along the way I realised that, very selfishly, I love working and helping people. And I worked for a bunch of different disenfranchised groups, the homeless, young offenders, victims of domestic abuse, and throughout those different groups there was a common thread of people who were probably there because they had a disability; they had become disenfranchised into the other categories because of their disability. And a few years ago I was lucky enough that Newham Council approached me and asked if I鈥檇 cast eyes on a project they were piloting working with young people with SEND, getting barista jobs.聽

NIKKI- That鈥檚 special education needs and disabilities, yes?

HARRY- Correct. It鈥檚 a great code word because people who work in the industry they see it and they recognise it immediately. People who just want a coffee they come in and they just think it鈥檚 a word.聽

NIKKI- It鈥檚 perfect. It works so well. Carry on.聽

HARRY- We piloted it for three months with a few young beneficiaries. We work with 18 to 25 year olds who are making that awkward transition from being kids into adults. And we essentially decided to go all in on it. So, we founded in January 2020, six weeks before the global pandemic, which in hindsight was a terrible time to start a non-profit. We鈥檙e still here, still smiling.聽

NIKKI- And I was reading that you鈥檝e got dyspraxia. Was that partly the reason you started?

HARRY- Yeah. As I say, I kind of noticed people with disabilities in those other categories when I was working with them, and I think because of my own hidden disability I started to become more and more aware of the fact how much I repressed my disability and pretended that I didn鈥檛 have anything. I think the school systems are actually reasonably good at supporting disabilities, but once I made my way into the working world I was completely in denial. I was trying to pretend that I didn鈥檛 have anything that causes issues.

NIKKI- Yeah.

EMMA- And how does it affect you the dyspraxia?

HARRY- My biggest challenge is my fingers and my hands, I don鈥檛 have much feeling in them. When I was younger I had sensitivity in my ears, so conversations around me I鈥檇 find very hard to filter out the different conversations happening in a room. I鈥檇 constantly be distracted by what another table were talking about. I wanted to open a restaurant, I wanted to be a chef, and once I started working in kitchens I realised that I was really going to struggle with that because I think a few key situations where I鈥檇 have my hand on the grill and it would be burning and I wouldn鈥檛 notice it immediately, and I鈥檇 smell it before I felt it. Kitchens can be quite dangerous places.聽

EMMA- Yeah. So, you designed your coffee shops then around what you needed then, is that right?

HARRY- Yes. Can I do this was never the question. It was always how can I do this.聽

NIKKI- How.

HARRY- And I kind of applied that to when I started the coffee shops. And I think that within our shops a great example would be we work with some young people who are deaf, and in a normal kitchen working through a kitchen with a knife you would be calling out, 鈥榢nife, knife, knife!鈥�, just so everyone around you knew not to step backwards or turn around. But that system doesn鈥檛 work for somebody who鈥檚 deaf. If you tap them on the shoulder to tell them you鈥檝e got a knife they鈥檒l turn around and potentially put themselves at risk. So, we鈥檝e had to come up with loads of tiny little systems that we just incorporate into it. And some of those systems are actually more effective than just shouting 鈥榢nife!鈥� aimlessly in a kitchen. So, I actually feel like the improvements we make benefit the wider team as well for each disability.聽

NIKKI- And how have you designed your shops for disabled customers as well?

HARRY- I think people think of accessibility in retail and they think of toilets and they think of disabled toilets. The financial obligation to build and kit out a disabled toilet can be quite massive. So, I think a lot of people kind of shut down on that and say, we鈥檙e not going to do anything like that because we can鈥檛 do a disabled toilet. But I always wonder how do we make it accessible, even if we can鈥檛 do a disabled toilet. So, finding one nearby and signposting people to it. It really bothers me some of the basics that people skip. Like it doesn鈥檛 have to be cost prohibitive. Some doors are very heavy, shockingly heavy, and I always wonder how they think people are expected to get in and feel welcome when the door is just too heavy. You come up and you鈥檙e using a walking stick and you can鈥檛 move the door, it couldn鈥檛 be a more direct sign of you鈥檙e not welcome. And a door stop costs a couple of quid. I think people get kind of caught up on thinking about the big holy grail of disabled toilets, but if they taught their staff sign language for free that鈥檚 something that could make a huge difference to the accessibility from a bunch of different questions.聽

I feel like the sunflower lanyards, we get a lot of people coming to our shops once they know what we do, they come in with those on, and it鈥檚 an interesting challenge. I鈥檓 glad they exist, but they shouldn鈥檛 have to exist because in a dream world everyone that comes in should expect to be treated with enough respect that if they have a special accommodation that they can just ask for it and people give it.聽

NIKKI- Fearne, is that the answer do you think for people with all kinds of disabilities being able to go out and about and shop? It certainly would help you, wouldn鈥檛 it?

FEARNE- It would certainly take that element of dread and doubt away. Because when I need to go out it does fill me with dread: oh what鈥檚 going to happen today, where can鈥檛 I get into, that kind of thing certainly.聽

NIKKI- And that鈥檚 really to dread everyday tasks is quite upsetting, and it shouldn鈥檛 be that way.聽

EMMA- I did a couple of little callouts recently for some thoughts on shopping. And Selina can鈥檛 get around her favourite lingerie shop without getting her wheels caught in underwear.聽

NIKKI- I once dragged out a pair of thongs actually, that reminds me, back in the day in my scooter. I went in for a bit of undie shopping, came out, all the alarms went off, I had a rack of clothes attached to the back of me and a pair of Union Jack thongs going around the wheel of my scooter.聽

EMMA- And Selina talks about the accessible changing room being used as storage. We all know that one.聽

NIKKI- Yes.

EMMA- Lifts not working as well.

NIKKI- Just out of interest how do you order a coffee in sign language?聽

HARRY- Well, what would you normally order?聽

NIKKI- I would order an espresso with whipped cream if I wasn鈥檛 anywhere near some honey.聽

HARRY- On nice.

NIKKI- Like a con panna.

HARRY- Makes sense. I think the key thing is with sign language your fingers on your hand are the vowels, so a-e-i-o-u.

NIKKI- Okay.

HARRY- If you wanted to go all in you could spell out espresso.聽

NIKKI- Just espresso.聽

HARRY- We found that takes a very long time. So, what we just do, because it鈥檚 the only coffee on the menu with an e, we just do the symbol for e.聽

NIKKI- Nice.

HARRY- And then we鈥檒l do the symbol for coffee, which is this little c shape near to your mouth, and doing it as a dip.聽

NIKKI- And that does look like a little mini espresso, doesn鈥檛 it, as well. Well, guys thank you so much. This has been really interesting. Thank you Harry for coming into the studio. Fearne, thank you so much for your time. It鈥檚 lovely to see you, albeit online.聽

FEARNE- Thanks for having me.聽

NIKKI- I鈥檓 sorry this shopping causes you such anxiety. One day let鈥檚 hope it gets better for you. It鈥檚 been a pleasure speaking to you.

FEARNE- Thank you.聽

MUSIC- Access All.

EMMA- Nikki, we just can鈥檛 get away from air travel. There are news stories popping up all the time. Frank Gardner was left on a plane again last weekend.聽

NIKKI- Again.聽

EMMA- And you鈥檝e been flying as well, you鈥檝e been on holiday. How was your flying experience this time?聽

NIKKI- It really was one of the worst experiences that my sister and I have had flying actually. Waiting, check, yes we had to wait. But the biggest problem, as a lot of physically disabled people will know, was the transferring from the wheelchair to the aisle chair, from the aisle chair to the plane seat. Now, I won鈥檛 have to tell many physically disabled people this, they鈥檒l have been through this rodeo many a time: if you need help transferring, if you鈥檙e somebody like my sister and I, we have a muscle condition, our arms are just as weak as our legs, you do need assistance to get on the plane. So, what generally happens is you can take your wheelchair to the side, plane door, and then they鈥檒l offer an aisle chair for you to be lifted onto it.聽

EMMA- Which is?

NIKKI- My boyfriend described this, and I think he鈥檚 very right, like the chair Hannibal Lecter had before Hannibal Lecter had the chair he had for the film, you know, with less straps.聽

EMMA- Okay, so is it just a basic skinny chair with a strap across it?

NIKKI- It鈥檚 the skinniest chair, Emma, that I鈥檝e ever seen. I鈥檓 a size 8, 10, I鈥檓 spilling all out of that chair. It鈥檚 got a tiny narrow, narrow seat. Not enough straps.

EMMA- It needs to be narrow so it can get down the aisle.聽

NIKKI- Yeah, but it doesn鈥檛 need to be that narrow. Because Rachel and I, my sister, have a solution to this, and that is to take our chairs onto the plane. Now, we do that by spending a bit of extra money and booking the front row. So, we鈥檝e got the front row. Our wheelchairs will get into a position where we can get from them and on to the plane seat, so long as we are on the front row. But there was a big old hoo-hah about not being able to get on the plane in the chairs, and we needed a ramp and where was the ramp, and blah, blah. But actually from Heathrow we did manage to do that. When we got to Faro the assistance guys came on and they just didn鈥檛 have a clue how to lift. So, my sister was going to go first, they were like, 鈥淐an you move your legs?鈥� and she was like, 鈥淲ell, no I can鈥檛 walk鈥�. They said, 鈥淐an you move your arms?鈥� and she said, 鈥淣o, I can鈥檛 lift them very high鈥�. And then the聽 guy just went, 鈥淪o, you can do nothing then? You can do nothing!鈥� I was like, woah steady on there.聽

EMMA- Wow.聽

NIKKI- I said to Rachel, 鈥淟ook, cross your arms鈥� I tried to show her what to do, because she鈥檚 a bit nervier than I am about this, because Rachel has broken bones before and so the goal is that she doesn鈥檛 break another. And so she was trying, but they didn鈥檛 know how to grab her arms, it was all going to be鈥�oh. Honestly Emma, my heart was racing. They didn鈥檛 have a clue. This happened on the way out and the way back. I want to start a campaign to update the aisle chairs because even when you actually get onto that aisle chair they don鈥檛 strap you in enough. Like your head鈥檚 falling back, they鈥檙e tipping you back, you鈥檙e falling off, your legs are going everywhere. Also when they went to lift Rachel they put on these massive gloves like they were going to stick their arm up a cow鈥檚 arse or something. It was the weirdest thing, and it was just not nice.聽

Also, loads of disabled people know this, we spent ages beforehand when booking inputting all the information that we had to: that we couldn鈥檛 transfer, our scooter measurements, our wheelchair measurements. We did every single thing we had to do beforehand, we were fully organised, and you get there at check-in and they don鈥檛 have your scooter measurements, they don鈥檛 really have much information written down. And you鈥檙e like why?聽

EMMA- Yeah, so you鈥檝e spent all this extra time that nobody else needs to spend, and the information hasn鈥檛 been passed along.聽

NIKKI- There was a guy, cabin crew fella, who when he was waiting for us when we landed back said, 鈥淚 just don鈥檛 understand why now, in 2022, there is not a better, safer way of getting disabled people onto planes, I don鈥檛 understand it鈥�.聽

EMMA- This is what I鈥檓 wondering for other people how they get on aeroplanes, how they get on with the aisle chairs. Tell us. Let us know.聽

NIKKI- Yeah, I鈥檇 love to know. Get in touch with us. Email accessall@bbc.co.uk, or you can message us on WhatsApp. Our number is 0330123 9480. But crucially can you start your message with the word access. If you want to send a voice note just do the same thing too, just write access, and then send the voice note. That would be fab.聽

MUSIC- Access All with Nikki Fox.

NIKKI- If you鈥檙e listening to this edition of Access All on 5 Live and you like what you鈥檙e hearing then subscribe to us on 大象传媒 Sounds. You can also listen to other news podcasts like Newscast, Ukrainecast and If You Don鈥檛 Know.聽

Our guest this week is an actor known best for聽 her roles in Coronation Street and Grantchester. But she鈥檚 also something of a legend for her disability advocacy in the arts. And she鈥檚 also just finished a UK tour of her one-woman show Snatched. Welcome Melissa Johns.聽

MELISSA- Thank you so much for having me.聽

NIKKI- It鈥檚 lovely, lovely to speak to you. Now, you鈥檝e just finished touring this debut play. How are you feeling about it all? Are you exhausted? Exhilarated?聽

MELISSA- I鈥檓 all the feelings. I literally did my final show on Friday, and after a UK tour we ended in my home city in Hereford, where I was born. And we had an audience of over 300. It was glorious and it was wonderful and I got very drunk afterwards.聽

NIKKI- For people that didn鈥檛 get to see the play, Melissa, tell us what it鈥檚 about.聽

MELISSA- So, Snatched is an autobiographical play about obviously me and my life. And I always knew there was a story to tell. Growing up I absolutely hated my body. I couldn鈥檛 stand the way it looked. For those that don鈥檛 know my right arm finishes just below the elbow. And that led to just some really scary moments, because I look so different to everybody around me and I would cover my arm up, I would just get myself into the most ridiculous situations. I would get to dates early so I could plan which side I would be sitting. I鈥檇 go to the kitchen and ask the chef to cut my food up for me, but really I said I was going to the toilet. I would choreograph sex. I literally became this master of manipulation and it was draining, it was very draining.聽

NIKKI- And was it just because of your limb difference? Was that the only reason?聽

MELISSA- I think it ended having a knock-on effect on my whole body. It was like I magnified this part of my body that I saw as wrong, and then I let that seep into other areas of my body. And so I really did, I just put this huge kind of barrier around myself and refused to let myself indulge in anything free, like dancing. Like I鈥檇 go to a party and I鈥檇 sit down all night, I wouldn鈥檛 get up and dance because that鈥檚 when people would see me. And so for me the worst thing that could have happened would have been for my iCloud to have been hacked and my intimate explicit photos released online, and that is exactly what happened.聽

NIKKI- That honestly it makes me feel a bit ill.聽

MELISSA- My agent called me up at the time, and my incredible, wonderful agent, who I鈥檓 still with, to say that a particular newspaper had been in touch with her and they had picked up these photos. And they were making their way across lots of porn sites, it was being picked up by lots of newspapers. And so suddenly I had to become okay with my body essentially being classed as public property, because these photos were online for the world to access.聽

NIKKI- And this was a body that you weren鈥檛 completely happy with at the time. I mean, this was 2018, wasn鈥檛 it?

MELISSA- Yes.

NIKKI- Were in Corrie at the time?聽

MELISSA- I鈥檇 just left Corrie.聽

NIKKI- You鈥檇 just left Corrie. And had you not come to terms with your body at that point or were you starting to?

MELISSA- By that point yes, I was starting to. I was really starting to make great efforts. And the way that I did that was I was with my family one evening and my grandad, who鈥檚 sadly no longer with us, he bought his first video camera in 1990 and that was the year I was born, and he documented my entire life. And so we were watching some childhood footage and I just saw this little girl on the screen and she was dancing and she was so free, and she was moving her body in ways that I hadn鈥檛 moved my body like that in years. And I just remember sitting and watching her and thinking I鈥檓 not giving you the life you deserve, you are so precious and you deserve so much more than I鈥檓 giving you, and if you were stood in front of you now the last thing I鈥檇 say to you is I hate the way you look. But she鈥檚 still there, she still exists, she鈥檚 still in me. And for me that was a massive turning point where I just thought I need to change the way that I鈥檓 living my life, because even if I鈥檓 not ready to do it for me I have to do it for her.聽

EMMA- So, you were starting to come to terms with it a little bit when the photos were leaked. And then they generated some absolutely awful comments. Tell me about the steps you had to take to come to terms with what had happened and to keep that sort of love for your body as well.

MELISSA- Yeah absolutely. So, the day it happened I had like 21 missed calls off my agent. And as you can imagine I was like, gosh this is going to be a good job, it鈥檚 like Spielberg鈥檚 called, I thought she really wants to get hold of me. And then I listened to her voice message and she said, 鈥淒arling, don鈥檛 answer the phone to anybody, I need you to call me straightaway鈥�, and that鈥檚 when she told me on the phone. And I spent the next few hours just in a real mess, I was full on like ugly crying, because I just thought everything I鈥檝e worked for, not only my acting career but the work that I do with young people, my work with disabled young people, what is going to happen. My life is about to be over, and I don鈥檛 know how to navigate this. And it was that loss of control; I suddenly felt so out of control with the situation. And I鈥檓聽 somebody that鈥檚 not very good at not being in control.聽

So, to get myself back in the kind of driver鈥檚 seat I forced myself to go onto the website. I remember typing it into Google and it was just growing the amount of sites that it was one. And so I just went on the first one, first thing I noticed was my photo was next to Jennifer Lawrence鈥檚, and I just thought well, I鈥檝e made it, there I am, chilling next to J-Law herself. And then the realisation of it kind of crashed down on me. When I saw the way that my body had been ripped apart, not just as a woman but as a disabled woman, I mean we鈥檙e all used to being bullied, right, people can be mean and they can pick out what they perceive to be your vulnerability, so I鈥檓 not new to hearing bad things about my body. But when I read the way that my body had been just completely and utterly ripped apart I鈥檇 never seen anything like it. And that for me is what kind of fuelled that fire and I just thought get angry. If you have your privacy disrespected get angry. But what we don鈥檛 need on top of that is shame for our bodies. That鈥檚 what I鈥檓 trying to eliminate. I鈥檓 not the one to blame here.聽 But as you can imagine, there were a lot of, 鈥榦h what did you do that for?鈥�. And that鈥檚 what we need to twist here, it鈥檚 not the 鈥榳hat did you do that for?鈥� it鈥檚, 鈥榳hy did they hack it?鈥�.

NIKKI- Yeah.

EMMA- I feel like what you鈥檙e saying is if you鈥檙e a disabled woman and you鈥檙e proud of your body don鈥檛 think that you can鈥檛 do whatever anybody else does if you want to.

NIKKI- Yeah.

MELISSA- Yeah, it wouldn鈥檛 have got as much traction I don鈥檛 think because it was this blonde-haired actress or whatever, and oh, she鈥檚 only got one arm, oh my gosh, does she have sex, how does she do it. So, yeah it was a real kind of minefield. It got completely fetishized because, I鈥檓 sure you're aware, that as a disabled person god forbid you are just a sexual being in your own right. According to the rest of the world you either don鈥檛 have sex at all or you do, you only exist for somebody else鈥檚 sexual pleasure, and therefore you get fetishized. So, for me it was all the things that people thought I should or could do with my right arm, and suddenly I was just no longer a sexual being in my own right; it was purely for the pleasure of those around me.聽

EMMA- Do you mean devotees?

MELISSA- Yeah.

EMMA- Is that the people that we鈥檝e heard about over the years, lots of amputees have issues around their privacy in terms of photos because devotees fetishize the part of you that鈥檚 had an amputation or that stops after the elbow or whatever?聽

MELISSA- Yeah, absolutely. And the knock-on effect kind of ripples through everybody then. It sort of becomes a bit of a running joke. And I think as disabled people we鈥檝e been the butt of the joke for so long.

NIKKI- And where are you at now? Do you feel you鈥檝e come to terms with the whole hacking? Have you come to terms with your body? Do you feel in a much better place now?

MELISSA- Oh my gosh, doing a one-woman show is like the best therapy out there.聽

NIKKI- Yeah, I bet.聽

MELISSA- It probably costs a little bit more money actually, but I can talk about it so confidently in the sense it doesn鈥檛 hurt me anymore.聽

NIKKI- You鈥檙e owning it, hey?

MELISSA- Yeah.

NIKKI- There are a couple of things you鈥檝e said today that have struck me, very much so actually. One of them was about hiding your disability, because I used to walk badly for a while, but I was quite obviously disabled. And when I was on the dating scene or just going out with my mates, I used to stand at the bar and a lot of people didn鈥檛 know I was disabled when I was standing at the bar. And I used to choreograph it at the time, because I was sort of coming to terms with everything, and I鈥檇 be like, right I鈥檒l wait till he walks in.

MELISSA- Planned your routes, yeah.

NIKKI- Yeah. So, he鈥檚 not going to see. And also when I first started in TV doing all of this and I was on TV a lot more, and I didn鈥檛 really know how to dress and my make-up was horrendous and my hair was horrendous and everything, but I did used to get quite a lot of negative comments. They weren鈥檛 always disability related. I remember I did have one that was quite funny, like the very first one I had was, 鈥楴ikki Fox is either a very strange looking woman or a very attractive hamster. You decide鈥�.聽

MELISSA- Oh wow.聽

NIKKI- I know.聽

MELISSA- Why does the world feel like it has to comment on the way that we look? It鈥檚 boring and it鈥檚 draining. And just like just be funnier. Like you poor person that you鈥檙e not that funny.聽

NIKKI- Yeah.聽

MELISSA- Well, I鈥檓 sorry that they said that.聽

NIKKI- To be honest I鈥檝e got to the age, I鈥檓 42, where I do just brush it off. And I鈥檓 quite content with myself. But I remember at that particular time just starting this kind of career, which is a bit brutal anyway鈥�

MELISSA- Absolutely.

NIKKI- 鈥�it kind of does hit you a little bit, you know.聽

MELISSA- Yeah.

NIKKI- And what is next for you, Melissa Johns? Are you doing more Grantchester?聽

MELISSA- So, Grantchester series 7 came out at the beginning of this year. It actually lands in America in, oh god, like a few days鈥� time.聽

NIKKI- That鈥檚 exciting.聽

MELISSA- The Americans love it. There鈥檚 definitely future life for Miss Scott. It鈥檚 a period drama, it鈥檚 1950s, as an actor to go back to a time that you didn鈥檛 live in is such a joy. The team is incredible. And so yeah, I鈥檓 really exciting to see where Miss Scott goes from here.聽

NIKKI- Oh Melissa, thank you so much for joining us today. That was so interesting. And please let us know when you鈥檙e next going to be performing Snatched, we can do a little group outing if we can. That would be nice, wouldn鈥檛 it, Em?

EMMA- Absolutely. I鈥檇 love to see it.聽

NIKKI- We鈥檝e also talked a lot haven鈥檛 we recently about festivals on Access All. And if you鈥檇 like to hear about the experience of two young women at the recent Wireless Festival then head over to our sister podcast, which is called If You Don鈥檛 Know. They weren鈥檛 impressed with the setup at Crystal Palace so check that out.聽

Thank you for listening. Subscribe, send us a message, we鈥檇 love to hear from you.聽

EMMA- Goodbye.

NIKKI- Bye.