大象传媒

EMMA- I need to know if you鈥檝e got your shoulders out today. You said in one of the other episodes that you were determined to always have you shoulders out.聽

NIKKI- I have got my shoulders out. How did you know, Em?

EMMA- Are they tanned? Are you tanned?

NIKKI- A little. What happens with me is I have little patches of brown if I get too tanned. And often as not one appears on my top lip, like this really massive patch of brown, so it looks like I have a moustache. And then I get another massive patch on my forehead, and people try and rub it off thinking it鈥檚 my foundation. So, I can鈥檛 go anywhere.聽

EMMA- Who rubs your forehead?

NIKKI- Oh people who love me to be honest. Like what have you got on your face? Rub it, rub it, rub it.

EMMA- Do you get that? Because can you rub your own forehead?聽

NIKKI- I can if I鈥檓 leaning my arms. I have to do a bit of a swing up.

EMMA- My mother will still, and I don鈥檛 know if mothers of non-disabled people do this, my mother will still just launch at me and rub my face or my hair or my clothes or whatever there鈥檚 something on, without even announcing she鈥檚 going to do it. I actually get a fright. And she鈥檚 known me all of my life, she knows I can鈥檛 see, she knows I get a fright, but she can鈥檛 help herself.聽

MUSIC- Theme music.聽

NIKKI- It鈥檚 another Access All, the 大象传媒鈥檚 disability and mental health podcast. I鈥檓 Nikki Fox and I am in London.聽

EMMA- And I鈥檓 Emma Tracey in Edinburgh.聽

NIKKI- And later...

TIM- He just has a heart the size of a disabled toilet.

NIKKI- That鈥檚 from the 大象传媒 comedy, Jerk, and we are going to be joined by its writer and star, Tim Renkow. I tell you Emma it鈥檚 scorchio down here in London. But I was in Manchester the other day and it wasn鈥檛 quite as toasty.

EMMA- Yeah, it鈥檚 a balmy 19 here and breezy today. But we are highly, highly unusually due to see 32 next week, which is almost unheard of. I鈥檓 not sure I鈥檝e ever seen 32 in the seven years that I鈥檝e lived in Fife in Scotland.聽

NIKKI- Holy moly, you're going to have to get your bikini on, Emma.

EMMA- We鈥檒l see.聽

NIKKI- But in all seriousness heatwaves can cause serious difficulties for disabled people, can鈥檛 they? I mean, I鈥檓 no good in the cold, and I love the heat, but actually I do struggle to regulate my temperature. I don鈥檛 know the ins and outs of this, Emma, but I was told, or my sister and I were both told when we were younger that we are no good at regulating our temperature and that we don鈥檛 sweat.聽

EMMA- I have no problem with actually regulating my body temperature at all, but what I can鈥檛 do is add some accessories that might help me get through a hot weather day. So, contrary to everything you鈥檝e ever seen or heard about totally blind people, I鈥檓 unable to wear dark glasses. And the reason for that is because I can actually see light and dark. I use my light and dark a lot in my navigation, so to see the darkness of objects against the bright of the day. It kind of keeps me a bit straighter and it stops me walking into things.聽

NIKKI- But it鈥檚 not just physical impairments is it, Emma?

EMMA- No. Two of the most common psychiatric medications, antidepressants and antipsychotics can cause overheating in hot weather. And that鈥檚 because they can stop the temperature regulation bit of your brain from working properly. And that can be really dangerous.聽

NIKKI- And more generally in England alone there were 2,500 excess deaths in the summer of 2020 as a result of hot weather. And according to the British Red Cross, heat related deaths in the UK could treble in 30 years.聽

EMMA- Treble? That is really huge, isn鈥檛 it?聽

NIKKI- Yeah.聽

EMMA- I mean, one of the problems is that heatwaves are becoming more frequent and more extreme because of climate change. And every time we get a burst of hot weather warnings are issued for the elderly and the vulnerable. And that鈥檚 us. But what can we do about it?

NIKKI- Let鈥檚 talk to some people to give us an idea of how people with different impairments can be affected in the heat. Now, I鈥檇 like to welcome Jo Southall. Jo is an occupational therapist who specialises in giving practical advice for managing long-term health conditions. And we鈥檝e got Sabrina Fox. Great last name Sabrina. Sabrina is a volunteer at the MS Society, and you both bring, don鈥檛 you, with you personal experience on this subject matter. So, thank you so, so much for joining us. I鈥檓 going to go to you, Jo, first. How are you coping in the heat?聽

JO- I would quite like to be in the Arctic Circle right now. But I鈥檝e got a lot of strategies in place so we鈥檙e doing okay.

NIKKI- And Sabrina, how are you doing?聽

SABRINA- I鈥檝e got progressive MS, multiple sclerosis, so my symptoms get worse over time. And I don鈥檛 really get a break. When the hot weather comes in it鈥檚 very difficult.聽

NIKKI- What areas do you struggle with most, Sabrina?

SABRINA- The heat makes the spasms worse. I do get them normally, but they鈥檙e more intense when it鈥檚 really hot.聽

EMMA- Jo, I understand that you have that classic combination of hypermobile Ehlers Danlos syndrome and postural tachycardia. What is that in a nutshell and why is heat an issue?

JO- The root cause of my problems is the hypermobile EDS. And effective my body makes collagen badly, so my ligaments are too stretchy, my digestive system is a bit too stretchy, my skin is weak. Basically any kind of structure in my body is just a little bit off, so I鈥檓 not quite as durable as I鈥檓 supposed to be. A side effect of that is my autonomic system doesn鈥檛 really function particularly well. So, anything in your body that鈥檚 supposed to be automatic, so your blood pressure, your heart rate, your digestion, sweating, how often can you pee, that kind of thing, high temperatures for me result in tachycardia, dizziness, high risk of fainting, dehydration.聽

NIKKI- Tachycardia is something to do with the heart. Dr Fox here.聽

JO- if I鈥檓 doing absolutely nothing, laid down still, not talking in a nice cool room, my heart rate is perfectly normal. The minute I start adding things like standing up or talking or being somewhere warm I start to get that increase in heart rate. So, postural changes will cause a massive increase in heart rate for me.聽

NIKKI- I think now is probably a good time to bring in Dr Katherine Fletcher, who鈥檚 the research communication officer at Parkinson鈥檚 UK. Hello Katherine. Thank you for joining us too.

KATHERINE- Thank you for having me.聽

NIKKI- We鈥檙e talking from the view of people with Parkinson鈥檚, aren鈥檛 we? And they have their own heat difficulties. So, can you explain a bit more about that?聽

KATHERINE- Those that might not be so familiar with Parkinson鈥檚, it鈥檚 a neurological condition that gets worse over time. I think people mostly think about movement symptoms, so tremors, the slowness of movement, but actually I think the symptoms that are less well known are most important when we鈥檙e thinking about how heat might impact people with Parkinson鈥檚. And this is that people with Parkinson鈥檚 are more prone to struggle with their mental health, so can experience depression and anxiety. I think it's well known that mental health can be impacted in the heat; we鈥檙e all more irritable. Tiredness can play a factor, like Sabrina said, struggling to sleep. All kind of amalgamates in making the heat a little bit more worrying for people with Parkinson鈥檚.聽

NIKKI- Jo, what are your top tips for coping in this heat?聽

JO- I have oh so many.聽

NIKKI- Go on, Jo.

JO- One of them I think might actually be quite useful for you. So, it鈥檚 something called evaporation cooling. Now, when we sweat the sweat leaving our body as it evaporates uses heat to change from a liquid to air vapour basically; that鈥檚 a really simplified version of it. But effectively one of the benefits of sweating is that it cools you down. So, if you don鈥檛 sweat you鈥檙e not getting that same benefit. The downside of sweating as a cooling method is you don鈥檛 just sweat out fluids, you sweat out all those useful electrolytes that help with things like circulation and your nervous system functioning. So, you can end up, and I feel the same way as Sabrina as muscle spasms as an issue, because basically you鈥檙e sweating out all your electrolytes.

EMMA- So, what can you do to help you with those issues then?聽

JO- The easiest cheat is just to carry a little spray bottle of water and just mist your clothes and your skin and let that evaporate instead.聽

NIKKI- No?

JO- Yeah.聽

NIKKI- Does that work?聽

JO- It does.聽

NIKKI- Jo, you're a genius. Emma, that鈥檚 what we need to do. That鈥檚 a brilliant tip.聽

EMMA- I tell you what though, I think the spray bottle is good, but I have heard from people over the years about a cooling vest. And I鈥檓 not sure how fashionable this is or what it looks like but I kind of want one for next week. Could you tell us a bit more about cooling vests, Jo?

JO- I absolutely can. I do have one. So, what we鈥檙e talking about鈥�

EMMA- Is it sexy?

JO- No, not.聽

NIKKI- Is it boobie enhancing?聽

JO- No, it doesn鈥檛 do anything good for the figure.聽

NIKKI- I鈥檓 out.聽

JO- It kind of looks like body armour, like the stab vest style things. And it鈥檚 basically just a sleeve for cool packs front and back. And they have phase change material cool packs in them. So, were not talking icepacks. Phase change material gets down to sort of 14 to 16 degrees and you just keep that against your core so it keeps you cool but not cold.

EMMA- Is it like gel stuff in them?

JO- It鈥檚 sort of like a liquid at room temperature, so you pop it into the fridge and it turns into a solid, and then it will gradually turn back into a liquid using your body heat.聽

EMMA- And then do you have to put clothes on top of it or鈥�?

NIKKI- No, Emma, you just go round in it.

EMMA- I鈥檓 just asking. It鈥檚 very hot. If you put on another layer quite thick鈥�

NIKKI- Sexy.

EMMA- 鈥�and then something else on top of it, does it not negate the progress you鈥檙e making by wearing a cooling vest in the first place? I鈥檓 just trying to understand because I might be on to the old big shop in the internet.

JO- Yeah, it is cold, cold, so you can wear it over your regular clothing so that you can just take it off when you don鈥檛 need it anymore, and you don鈥檛 suddenly find yourself undressed in the middle of Sainsbury鈥檚. It鈥檚 basically just something that you would wear against whatever normal clothing you鈥檙e wearing.聽

NIKKI- Jo, it brings a whole new meaning to freezing your tits off, doesn鈥檛 it? And Sabrina, have you got any top tips?

SABRINA- My top tip would be to pace yourself, so make sure you鈥檙e leaving enough time to do everything. Don鈥檛 rush yourself. And also if you need to speak to someone about maybe changing the plans just do it in an approachable way and hopefully they鈥檒l be understanding.聽

NIKKI- Just very quickly guys, because we鈥檙e not used to this much hot weather in the UK, and when we do it鈥檚 like what is going on. But one of the reasons why it feels harder to cope with than if you鈥檙e, say, on a holiday by the pool or whatever is because our buildings and our infrastructure are not necessarily built for that level of heat. I just wonder what can we do about that, Katherine?

KATHERINE- I think there are lots of things that can be done. We mentioned earlier in the programme about climate change and it becoming a more regular thing. Heatwaves are here to stay potentially. I think it鈥檚 about working to make calls to the government with people with health conditions and disabilities in mind to adapt that infrastructure. And that comes down to things like making sure people are financially able to buy fans and aircon units. We all have lived in houses and flats that are just unbearable in the heat. And affordable and accessible public transport. People still need to be encouraged to get out and about, and I think making sure public transport is adapted to and has aircon and is comfortable during the heatwave is really important, not just for people with Parkinson鈥檚 but everyone.聽

NIKKI- That鈥檚 true.

KATHERINE- They would be my top two.

NIKKI- Thank you all so much. Obviously thank you Katherine, thank you Jo, thank you Sabrina. That was really fascinating. I鈥檝e learnt a lot there. I鈥檓 going to get a spray bottle and I鈥檓 going to spray myself down. That was a great tip there. keep cool.聽

KATHERINE- You too.聽

NIKKI- Bye guys. Now, remember to keep cool, and also check in on your friends and family who you think might be struggling with this heat. And also send us your top tips for keeping cool, and we will tweet the best out. Our Twitter is @bbcaccessall, or you can send us an email to accessall@bbc.co.uk. Or, one of my favourite methods, a voice note on WhatsApp, a voice note or a message. The number is 0330 123 9480. And if you could start your message with the word Access that would really help us out.聽

FIONA- We鈥檇 like to interrupt this professional broadcast with a little bit of amateur styley, wouldn鈥檛 we, Lady Jane Garvey?

JANE- Yes, we would, Dame Fiona Glover. We would like to urge people to listen to the 大象传媒 podcast, Access All, with Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey. Which is 鈥� well actually, how would you sum it up? Because it鈥檚 about a range of issues which actually almost everyone will find something of interest embedded within it, won鈥檛 they?

FIONA- They will. And it is a big remit. It鈥檚 much larger than ours.聽

JANE- Huge, and ours is enormous.聽

FIONA- It is. But I鈥檝e been enjoying every episode that I鈥檝e listened to so far and I couldn鈥檛 recommend it highly enough.聽

JANE- It鈥檚 very well presented by two informed witty women. God, we could learn something actually.

FIONA- Honestly, it鈥檚 brilliant.聽

NIKKI- Oh Emma, it takes me right back. I can鈥檛 tell you how much I enjoyed chatting to Fi Glover and Jane Garvey there on their brilliant, very long-running 大象传媒 podcast, Fortunately, which like our one is on 大象传媒 Sounds.聽

EMMA- So, you were on their podcast last week?

NIKKI- I was. I was on talking about all sorts of things. I spoke about my family, I talked about my sister.聽

EMMA- So, as a little teaser of that episode we鈥檙e going to play a clip of it now. And you鈥檇 just been talking about your sister, as you say, and the fact that you鈥檝e got the same disability. The name of which you鈥檙e just about to reveal to everyone.聽

NIKKI- Mild congenital muscular dystrophy non-progressive is how they described it when we were younger. And mum was having to regularly take us to Hammersmith Hospital three times a week. We used to have to have tests. I used to have muscle biopsies, because Rachel never wanted them because they were quite painful, so I used to get a little bit of money.聽

FIONA- They sound it, but what do they do to get it?聽

NIKKI- They just take a bit of your muscle and take it off and test it. I鈥檝e still got the little scars.聽

FIONA- Ew.聽

NIKKI- I know. It wasn鈥檛 pleasant.聽

FIONA- I鈥檓 sure it wasn鈥檛.聽

NIKKI- I am quite hardcore now. You can do anything to me, I鈥檓 all right, probably because of those. But yeah, we used to have little muscle biopsies; they鈥檇 take them away for testing. And it got to the point where you get to sort of 16 and you鈥檙e like, I want a career, I want to think about work. I was playing the piano at the time and I set up my own little piano teaching business, and I wanted to get out there and do things. And you can鈥檛 do the two; you cannot be going to hospital three times a week for people to test on you and for you to walk up and down the corridor in your little vest and your pants for a load of doctors to look at the way you鈥檙e walking and your gait and all of this, and do the same exercise, breathe into a tube. It was always the same kind of thing. And you can鈥檛 do that and then actually live a life. So, you kind of stop around 16, 17, and then you鈥檝e still got the same diagnosis. But as it transpires there are lots of different kinds of muscular dystrophy, and even now at 42 I don鈥檛 know what that is.聽

EMMA- For more Nikki Fox subscribe to this podcast, Access All, on 大象传媒 Sounds.聽

NIKKI- We are cross-podcast promoting here.聽

EMMA- Yeah. And tell your friends as well. Very, very important. Back to the interview again, you spoke really openly about that bit of your childhood with muscular dystrophy that I think a lot of us sort of keep to ourselves a bit, because it鈥檚 a bit weird 鈥� sorry, I hope you don鈥檛 mind me saying it鈥檚 a bit weird.聽

NIKKI- No.

EMMA- But it鈥檚 not like what other kids have to go through. I mean, I didn鈥檛 really have much hospital because I鈥檓 just blind, I just came out blind. I like to say a freak of nature. I鈥檓 not sure that鈥檚 the right way of putting it.聽

NIKKI- No, Emma, that鈥檚 not.

EMMA- But mine was first to see if there was a cure, and second to see if I鈥檇 pass it on, and that was all. So, it鈥檚 not something I鈥檓 not that used to. But tell me a bit more about those three times a week. That鈥檚 a lot! What were they trying to achieve?

NIKKI- I remember we had that test actually. I didn鈥檛 say that in the Fortunately podcast. But you鈥檝e just reminded me we had that test at quite a young age to find out whether or not if we had children whether they would also have muscular dystrophy. which I thought was a bit random so young. I was like, that鈥檚 the last thing on my mind.聽

EMMA- But I think my parents also wanted to know that if they had another child as well.

NIKKI- Yeah, that鈥檚 true. That happened to my mum. I think my mum was told when I popped out that if she were to have a second child they wouldn鈥檛 have muscular dystrophy. And then Rachel popped out and ta-dah, she had muscular dystrophy, so yeah. But going back to your question, Emma, they were around three times a week. It was my mum I felt for. I think she parked outside Wormwood Scrubs. And it was always early in the morning, my mum said. And my mum is very glamourous; she鈥檚 always full make-up, hair, heels, full-on.聽

EMMA- Did she have to get up early or something?聽

NIKKI- Yeah, regardless of the time she was going to look glam, that鈥檚 just my mum. So, off she went with two babies, parked outside Wormwood Scrubs, totted to Hammersmith in her heels probably looking fabulous, with the double buggy. This went on for years. Always I remember walking, because I do remember walking up and down the corridor, because it really tired us out. And we always had to do it in our vest and pants. I remember feeling a little insecure back then walking up and down the corridor in my bra and pants.聽

EMMA- Funny that.聽

NIKKI- Yeah a bit funny. Funny yeah.

EMMA- Do you think they kind of realised the impact it was having on your little child鈥檚 lives, and what they were trying to achieve relative to that?聽

NIKKI- In the hospital鈥檚 defence, Emma, we were under a guy called Professor Dubowitz, who was the sort of don when it came to muscular dystrophy, and I鈥檓 pretty sure we鈥檙e probably in one of his books. But you see there is still not a great deal known. You see, I鈥檓 not an expert. You can tell that I鈥檝e not been to the hospital for a very long time, so I鈥檓 sort of hesitant to say. But at the time they knew we had muscular dystrophy, and it was congenital muscular dystrophy, non-progressive. But there are different types of that, like I was saying to Fi and Jane, there鈥檚 a鈥�

EMMA- So, they were trying to figure out? They were trying to join the dots for them?聽

NIKKI- That鈥檚 right, they were trying to join the dots. And they were doing that by looking at the way we walked. Because some people end up in wheelchairs quite early on, so they said to my mum we鈥檒l probably end up in wheelchairs quite early on. We didn鈥檛. Rachel and I managed to walk till about 25. I say walk, you know, I鈥檝e told you this before, it wasn鈥檛 glamourous, but we did.

EMMA- And do you resent that now?聽

NIKKI- No, I don鈥檛, I don鈥檛 resent it at all. I鈥檓 sad for my mum that she had to spend a lot of time doing that. And I know that it was stressful.聽

EMMA- Was she made do it or did she just feel she should do it?

NIKKI- No, I think she was asked and probably thought she had to I would imagine. I鈥檒l ask her tonight. If my mum thought she could get out of it, but I guess she would want to know what鈥檚 going on with her daughters, so for my mum it probably was a no-brainer. She probably thought, well this could find us some answers. Do you know I remember once, Emma, I was told, we were all sent into a meeting with somebody that wasn鈥檛 Professor Dubowitz or any of the others that we鈥檇 sort of come to know, someone new, and they said to my mum and dad and me and my sister that when you get to 21 there will be a cure.聽

EMMA- Oh.

NIKKI- Yeah. And I remember it so vividly because I went round all my school mates, I was like when I鈥檓 21 I鈥檓 going to be cured.聽

EMMA- It鈥檚 a good birthday present I suppose, if that鈥檚 what you want, isn鈥檛 it?

NIKKI- Congratulations. But it never happened obviously.聽

EMMA- You said you stopped when life started to get busy when you were 15, 16. I鈥檓 imagining teenage shouting matches in the house saying, 鈥業 am not going anymore!鈥�. Or was it just a kind of coproduction between you all and said, we鈥檙e not doing this anymore?聽

NIKKI- Yeah, it sort of petered off for two reasons really. And I鈥檓 talking about my own personal experience when I say this. For me it felt like the medical professionals weren鈥檛 as concerned about seeing us the older we got.聽

EMMA- Oh, as in they鈥檇 done what they鈥�

NIKKI- They had to do, yeah. It very much felt like that.聽

EMMA- So, a teenager and adults aren鈥檛 as interesting as disabled kids?聽

NIKKI- No, they鈥檙e not.聽

EMMA- Because they鈥檙e not changing and growing as quickly and developing as quickly.

NIKKI- Yeah, they鈥檙e not really arsed about the adult Fox.

EMMA- So, they ditched you. Did they start ghosting you then?聽

NIKKI- We were kind of ghosting. It was like the worst Tinder date ever. You know when you both know that it鈥檚 not going to plan and you鈥檙e trying to get out of it?

EMMA- Yeah.

NIKKI- It was a bit like that with hospitals. They weren鈥檛 that interested; we wanted to live. I was going to school, like I said, I had a good social life, I was getting there. I had my ups and downs but it was going all right. I wanted to work, I really did, and I wanted to go to uni.聽

EMMA- And you couldn鈥檛 really do that with your three times a week hospital habit?

NIKKI- No. who can?

EMMA- No.聽

NIKKI- But even now I鈥檓 sure I鈥檓 not the only disabled person that would say how difficult it is to mix working and getting all those regular hospital appointments that you need. I just don鈥檛 do them.聽

EMMA- Do you not?

NIKKI- Not really.

EMMA- So, you don鈥檛 do them?聽

NIKKI- No. I do the really important ones like the smears and all the things that we absolutely have to do. I鈥檓 probably not as good at going to see my ankle splint guy, which is why I get ulcers. Luke his name is, and he鈥檚 brilliant as well. But you have to go and see him, you then have to wait six weeks for these splints, you have to go back; you don鈥檛 have a time. I left a mark on my leg for a very long time and then went a bit bad. So, yeah I鈥檓 naughty, I鈥檓 naughty. And I鈥檓 trying at 42 now to balance it a lot better than I have done in the past and be a bit stricter. But you have to say no to certain things for whatever reason in this job and you don鈥檛 want to add, you feel like you don鈥檛 want to add, oh and by the way I鈥檝e got to see my splint man on Monday. But here where I am now at the 大象传媒 I鈥檓 lucky, everyone鈥檚 very understanding. But another area of life, work it might not be the same.聽

MUSIC- Access All with Nikki Fox.聽

ROB- I鈥檒l be straight with you, Tim, the only bit of disability that I care about is ability. I think we鈥檙e all very different, aren鈥檛 we, and different in different ways. I for example suffer from anosmia which means I have a very limited sense of smell.聽

TIM- Oh, that鈥檚 really not a disability.聽

ACTOR- Thank you Tim, that means a lot.聽

NIKKI- Tim.聽

TIM- Hello.

NIKKI- Hello. How are you?聽

TIM- Good. How are you?聽

NIKKI- I鈥檓 all right. Thank you so much for coming in the studio.聽

TIM- Thanks for having me.聽

NIKKI- Can you hear Emma there, Tim?

TIM- Yes.聽

EMMA- Hi Tim. How are you?聽

TIM- Hi Emma. How are you?聽

EMMA- It鈥檚 nice to see you, well not see you, hear you, be with you, and not with you, in another place. Anyway lovely to have you.聽

NIKKI- She鈥檚 in Edinburgh.聽

TIM- Ooh.

NIKKI- I know.聽

EMMA- Are you going to come up this year, Tim?

TIM- No.

EMMA- No. Why?

TIM- It鈥檚 so expensive, it鈥檚 so expensive this year.聽

EMMA- Yeah.

NIKKI- Okay, well someone who has made a very respectable living from showing disabled people can be just as much of a jerk as the next person is today鈥檚 guest, I鈥檓 with actor, writer, stand-up comedian and all round legend Tim Renkow.

TIM- Hello.

NIKKI- Hello Tim. How are you?聽

EMMA- Hello.

TIM- Good, how are you doing?聽

NIKKI- We鈥檙e a bit excited about this, aren鈥檛 we, Emma?

EMMA- Oh I just love Tim.

NIKKI- I know.聽

EMMA- He just says it like it is, doesn鈥檛 he?聽

NIKKI- But you were doing a comedy show last night. Are you hanging? Are you hungover?聽

TIM- No. I was a good boy and I didn鈥檛 drink. I鈥檓 just too old now.聽

NIKKI- How old are you? Bit of an impolite question that.聽

TIM- It is impolite, but more embarrassing because I don鈥檛 know. I was born in 1989 so.

NIKKI- Oh okay.

EMMA- Oh, you鈥檙e a baby! Just a baby.

TIM- 33 here but I鈥檓 dead inside, so.聽

EMMA- And is doing the comedy with the cerebral palsy getting harder as you get older?

TIM- Yes.聽

EMMA- Tell me why it鈥檚 getting harder. What鈥檚 harder about it?聽

TIM- Just as you get older you just have less patience for drunk people, that鈥檚 the main thing.聽

NIKKI- Obviously we know you鈥檙e an excellent stand-up comedian. But also you鈥檙e probably best known no, aren鈥檛 you, for Jerk?

TIM- Yeah.聽

NIKKI- How did you come up with the idea?聽

TIM- My friend鈥檚 a producer and he had a job interview where he needed to mock up a fake treatment, so he did one about me. And then he did not get the job. But he was like, 鈥淵ou know this is good, should we actually work on it?鈥�. And I said, 鈥淵eah why not?鈥�. And then we did it and he went, 鈥淥kay I鈥檓 going to take it to the 大象传媒鈥�. And I went, 鈥淵eah why not?鈥�. And then the 大象传媒 goes, 鈥淥kay we鈥檒l do a pilot鈥�. And I went, 鈥淵eah why not?鈥�. It鈥檚 just a list of me saying why not to people.

NIKKI- And in your sitcom, it鈥檚 right to say that you are a bit of an asshole.

TIM- Yeah.

NIKKI- What did you want to achieve from that, Tim?

TIM- Well, I wanted to be an asshole. I just wanted to be funny. The show is just an extension of my stand-up category so it was natural.聽

NIKKI- A natural progression.聽

TIM- Uh-huh. As you can tell by how I got the job I don鈥檛 put a lot of thought into doing things.聽

NIKKI- There鈥檚 no kind of grand plan?

TIM- There鈥檚 no grand plan.聽

EMMA- You鈥檙e such a role model Tim, such a role model.聽

NIKKI- I wish I was that free and easy.

TIM- I base my life on the Joker from the Dark Knight.聽

NIKKI- I haven鈥檛 been able to watch that; it looked too dark.聽

TIM- I haven鈥檛 seen the new one, but the Heath Ledger one.聽

NIKKI- Okay. Well, we鈥檝e got a little clip here of you being a jerk.聽

ACTRESS- This Tim is oppressed as a member of the disabled community.聽

TIM- I鈥檓 not disabled.聽

ACTRESS- Oh.

TIM- Yeah, I took the decision to identify as able-bodied.聽

ACTRESS- Uh, oh, oh my god, I mean that, that is鈥� And I assumed traditional body norms, and mis-abled you. Oh my god, I need re-educating.聽

ACTOR- No, you don鈥檛. Tim鈥檚 actually only just mentioned this.聽

ACTRESS- It is not Tim鈥檚 job to teach; it is our job to learn. I am so sorry, Tim. I mean, is there anything I can do to make reparations?聽

TIM- You could get us coke.聽

ACTRESS- Cocaine?

NIKKI- It鈥檚 so good because we need to shine a light on the ridiculousness.

TIM- Yeah.

NIKKI- Oh it鈥檚 just brilliant, Tim. I love that. I watched that last night.聽

TIM- Thank you.聽

NIKKI- I mean, that was you kind of being tongue in cheek, but with labelling where do you stand on all of that disabled, non-disabled, able-bodied? Do you get hung up on that kind of thing? I鈥檓 guessing not. 聽

TIM- No, I just ignore it. The labelling thing is weird. I just don鈥檛 care. I think the ultimate goal for everyone, no matter what your political stance, is to move beyond labelling one way or another. I feel like if everyone鈥檚 trying to move on from it why not just move on now and just ignore it? I don鈥檛 care. Just do what you want to do, it鈥檚 fine.聽

NIKKI- You also touch on the things that you can get away with being disabled.聽

TIM- Yeah.聽

NIKKI- I loved that. Because I remember once I worked for a major supermarket, I was a checkout chick for quite a few years.聽

TIM- Ooh.聽

NIKKI- I know. I didn鈥檛 like the uniform, and I used to walk a bit in that time, but badly, like I wobbled around. And they said to me one day, I just turned up in jeans, and they were like, why are you not wearing your uniform?鈥� I was like, 鈥淚鈥檓 too disabled to wear the trousers鈥� and they just went, 鈥淵eah fine鈥�. And I wore jeans ever since. It鈥檚 brilliant.聽

TIM- It鈥檚 good. Like everyone should wear jeans.聽

NIKKI- Exactly, it鈥檚 dress-down Friday.聽

TIM- Who cares?

NIKKI- Have you ever done any naughty things your character does?聽

TIM- I mean, I am a dick. I will be a dick. I will have label me a dick, amuse people. I would do stuff like when I was a teenager and I was walking I would walk by somebody and then just fall down and go, 鈥淲hat the [beep] did you do that for?鈥�.聽

NIKKI- I used to do that to get out of work. Then they started sending me to the hospital and I was like, this isn鈥檛 going to work.聽

TIM- I know. It鈥檚 a good move though.聽

NIKKI- I know, thank you.聽

EMMA- Very predictably for Emma, can I ask about the mum, your mum in Jerk?聽

NIKKI- Oh, she鈥檚 brilliant.聽

MUM- Stop being an asshole and get up!

EMMA- She is the best. But the clip from the episode that you just heard, at the end of it you said, 鈥淵ou could get us some coke, cocaine鈥� and the whole rest of the episode is about sourcing that and do you really want it. But the thing I loved was your mum was trying to tell you, or trying to tell Tim in Jerk, not you, that you wouldn鈥檛 be able to ingest it in the usual way. And she actually found a solution for how you would do that.聽

TIM- Yeah, yeah.聽

EMMA- And I just think that is such a disabled person mother thing to do.聽

TIM- Yeah.

EMMA- Not in the cocaine way, I mean Una Tracey wouldn鈥檛 be telling me how to do that.聽

NIKKI- Not that we recommend coke, guys.聽

EMMA- No, not by any stretch. But the idea that writing a piece where your mum is finding solutions around really subjects that you would never expect your mother to find a solution for. Is that something that happens to you? Where did that come from?聽

TIM- No, that was just, well Lorraine is great with improv. What we do with her is give her the scenario and then go, okay do something with it, say what you would say. That鈥檚 kind of all her. We聽 needed her to go at Idris so I wrote the line, 鈥楳aybe you wake up with no knees鈥� and she was, 鈥淚 don鈥檛 want to do it, it鈥檚 a bit harsh鈥�. And we went, 鈥淥kay, do what you do鈥�. And she went, 鈥淥kay, I鈥檓 going to cut off your legs and shove them down your throat鈥�. Jesus Christ, that鈥檚 so much harsher!

NIKKI- That鈥檚 so much worse!

TIM- Yeah.

EMMA- Tim, why do you think Tim in Jerk gets away with all the things that he gets away with? Is it a cerebral palsy voice? Where is it coming from?聽

TIM- I want to think it鈥檚 because I鈥檓 adorable.聽

ACTOR- I鈥檓 just going to say this: do you, do you have special needs, you know, like for the workstation? Do you need an ergonomically adjustable chair?

TIM- Yeah, leather.聽

ACTOR- Leather? Okay.聽

TIM- Salmon leather.聽

ACTOR- Salmon leather.聽

TIM- And a bigger desk. Bigger than hers.聽

ACTOR- I see.聽

TIM- And a guide dog.聽

ACTOR- Okay.聽

TIM- And new shoes.聽

ACTOR- Oh shoes, all right.聽

TIM- Your shoes.

ACTOR- My shoes?

TIM- But not those shoes.聽

ACTOR- Okay.聽

EMMA- Tim pulls back just enough to make people want to help him.聽

TIM- Yeah.聽

EMMA- But it feels it is all master plan and strategic, but I think he still wants to be loved, does he?

TIM- Yeah. I think the key to Tim, why he鈥檚 likeable, is he鈥檚 never trying to get anything out of it so it鈥檚 no sinister. Or if he is trying to get something out of it it fails. I don鈥檛 think he ever achieves any goals he sets out. And I think that helps you get more likeable. But no one wants to root for somebody that鈥檚 a douchebag and winning.聽

NIKKI- Yeah.聽

TIM- You either win or you鈥檙e a douche.聽

EMMA- Is there another series?聽

TIM- We鈥檙e working on it right now.聽

NIKKI- Yes.

EMMA- Yay!

NIKKI- You live in the UK now, don鈥檛 you?聽

TIM- Yes.聽

NIKKI- Do you like that?聽

TIM- South.

NIKKI- Do you miss home?聽

TIM- No. I鈥檝e lived here for 11 years.聽

NIKKI- And you鈥檙e married.

TIM- Married.聽

EMMA- Oh, congratulations.聽

NIKKI- Married to another fellow comedian.聽

TIM- Yeah.聽

NIKKI- Exciting.聽

TIM- So, we got to perform together last night which was great.聽

NIKKI- Nice.聽

TIM- We鈥檙e both disabled so we never get to be on the same bill.聽

EMMA- Why, are you only allowed one disabled person?聽

TIM- It鈥檚 only one at a time.聽

NIKKI- One rule, Em, one rule: one in, one out.聽

TIM- Yeah.聽

NIKKI- Ah Tim, thank you so much for joining us today.聽

TIM- Thank you.聽

NIKKI- And from one disabled jerk to another, it鈥檚 been a pleasure.聽

TIM- Thank you.聽

NIKKI- It鈥檚 been such a pleasure. Now, you can subscribe to us on 大象传媒 Sounds, and tell your friends.聽

EMMA- Tell everybody, everybody you know, everybody you don鈥檛 know.聽

NIKKI- Yeah, and get them to subscribe, which is exactly what Keiligh, who works on the show did, when she went on her first date. Oh yeah, she got her first date to subscribe to the podcast. I think that鈥檚 good going. And I鈥檝e told her to date more, like speed date.聽

EMMA- Oh, above and beyond, Keiligh, but yeah, get the dating apps out.聽

NIKKI- Thank you for listening, and we will see you next week. Bye.聽

EMMA- Bye.聽