´óÏó´«Ã½

7th October 2022

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 20

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

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NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Strictly Come Dancing music] Oh here she is, looking all glitz and glam. Emma Tracey, she is sashaying into the studio. What dance was that Ems?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That was the Emma Tracey blindy dance move, who doesn’t know any dance moves. That’s what that was.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ll tell you what, Emma Tracey is looking absolutely phenomenal with her Strictly headband in.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ellie Simmonds is on Strictly.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know, it’s so exciting.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A disabled person’s on Strictly!

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I did a little shimmy when you came in.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did you?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I did, but you can’t, you know.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You wouldn’t even notice?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s not a great deal of movement going on there, to be honest.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And because you love Strictly, don’t you, so why don’t you apply?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I love Strictly so much. Oh, well I can’t go on Strictly.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why not?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Emma, I’d be…look the thing is, I love…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Dance is for everyone.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Dance is for everyone, 100%, it’s just not for me. Now, the reason why I say that, it’s not because I don’t think I could dance because actually for somebody with limited muscle strength I think I have got quite a bit of movement. Like in the pool I can twerk, I can shimmy, and I used to love movement when I was younger. But my arms are just as weak as my legs, and I use a scooter, and I so I feel like I’d be so restricted in what movement I’d be doing. So, really all I could do is move my head, do a bit of a shimmy, and move an arm. And I just think if I was a brilliant wheelchair dancer you know like those amazing wheelchair dancers.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Kate Stanforth.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, flying around the dancefloor, flipping and dipping and doing all sorts.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The only way – and I would consider doing Strictly with this, right – have you ever seen those sling bungee classes? You’re basically harnessed up, you do aerobic stuff. I think it’s like for you non-disableds to not wreck your joints.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right, yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But me I see it as a way where I can fly like Superman. And you put your little harness on and the bungees take, I’m hoping, all of your weight, though I don’t think it does, it takes some of your weight. Now, if there was a way where I could go in a sling bungee harness get-up.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý For the whole of Strictly?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý for the whole of Strictly, welcome to the floor Nikki Fox.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Would they dare vote out a bungee sling?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’d look the audience right in the eye down the camera and I’d say, ‘I love this show too much for you not to vote me in just because I’m a sling bungee wearing disabled’.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, it’s a reasonable adjustment.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s Access All, our weekly disability and mental health podcast from the ´óÏó´«Ã½. I’m Nikki Fox and I’m in London.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I’m Emma Tracey, and I’m also in London. Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She’s in London too. Yes. Now, a lot has been going on politically hasn’t it, Emma?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It has.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hashtag understatement. And we at Access All have been trying to solve a mystery. This is the mystery of the missing disability minister.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s a bit of a tongue twister, I know. But Liz Truss has been Prime Minister for a whole month now and still there is no news on who will be appointed Minister for Disabled People. I’ve been checking every day pretty much. Now, Chloe Smith, who used to in that role she has a new job, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. And despite us trying our very best, the government has told us it has not officially confirmed who is going to get that role.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Any ideas who it’s going to be, Nikki?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, funny you should say that, Emma. The Access All team has been doing some digging, as have some of our fellow disability journalists, and it feels like we’re closing in on the missing minister. So, first John Pring from the disability news service he discovered that [drum roll] – did we oversell that? – MP Claire Coutinho was listed in the role on the app for the Conservative Party conference which took place in Birmingham.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. Then lovely Liam O’Dell who was on this show a couple of weeks ago talking about BSL, who writes for the Limping Chicken, he revealed that he had spoken to Scope, who told him they’d met with Miss Coutinho in the capacity as Minister for Disabled People.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re going to run out of breath there, Ems.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s one big disability charity thing that.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It is. And it gets better, Emma. We were doing a little bit of scrolling through the Twittersphere and the team itself have tweeted how wonderful it was to meet Claire Coutinho as the new Minister for Disabled People at the party conference. And, there’s more.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She re-tweeted it!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, if the biggest charity for deaf, blind people also thinks she’s the Minister for Disabled People then it’s a done deal, right?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, you’d think so, wouldn’t, you, Em? But despite putting all of that to the government they’re refusing to confirm or deny. Although the poor press officer who has had to deal with this eventually said, ‘The best thing I can say is that ministerial portfolios have yet to be officially confirmed’ with strong emphasis on the word officially, if you catch my drift. Do you get me?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I do, I do. I think I know what you’re saying.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. Now, we’ve already put a bid in to talk to the new minister when they’re appointed, because there’s quite a lot to talk about, isn’t there, Emma?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Just a wee bit.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý From cost of living to benefits. So, Claire, if you’re listening, me and Emma would love to have you on. And I’m sure all of our lovely listeners have got lots of questions that they’d like to put to you, so come on.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, come and see us face to face in the studio.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, supposing, just supposing it is Claire here are five facts on ÌýClaire Coutinho.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Cue the music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý At five, Claire Coutinho is the Conservative MP for East Surrey. At four, she’s younger than both of us at 37.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, that’s depressing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Uh-huh. At three, before she went into politics she used to work in banking. Number two, her parents came to the UK in the late ‘70s, they’re from India and they’re both doctors. And number one, in 2014 she appeared in the cooking gameshow The Taste.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, there you go. Of course us doing this whole song and dance routine, it’s going to be very embarrassing if it turns out to be someone else.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I’ve got confidence. And, as we’ve said, the bid is already in to talk to the new minister, whoever that might be. But we definitely, definitely need questions from you Access All’ers for when that happens. So, what would like to know about her? What do you want to know about her plans? And what do you want her to know about you and the disability community?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I’d quite like to know whether they’re going to stay in the job for longer than a year.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is that the usual?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. Since I’ve been in this job since 2014 there’s been around seven I think.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Who was your favourite?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ooh, okay, I’m not talking. Ooh, that might get me into hot water, Ems. The one I had the most fun with, Emma, was Mike Penning. We were filming a news piece, we were invited by Mike’s team to go and look at an accessible beach in the UK. Mike and his team spent about two hours trying to find the accessible beach. So, we ended up walking up and down, and up and down, and up and down, looking for what was essentially a ramp onto the beach.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh man.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then a walkway to the sea.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, was he embarrassed?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He was quite funny actually, Mike Penning. He’s a bit of a joker. He’s a bit of a cockney lad.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He’s a cockney Tory. And yeah, he was all right. He just sort of brushed it off, he was like, ‘Oh we got there in the end’.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What does a disability minister actually do?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think the issue that a lot of disabled people have with the role of disability minister is the brief is actually quite small; it’s mainly focused on benefits. And of course, as we know, being disabled our lives are not just benefits.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No. We’re not defined by the benefits we receive.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re not defined by the benefits, no. we need improvements in many areas in life, healthcare, social care, employment.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But they have no remit in any of those areas?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But they don’t, no. For me the role of disability minister, and you can have this for free government, right, is that you’re across everything. You should be across all areas.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And that you’re a disabled person as well maybe?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, you know, it’s a novel idea, isn’t it? I don’t know.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And not all disabled politicians will want to be the Disability Minister obviously, but it would be a good role model situation, wouldn’t it?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, if you’ve got any questions or concerns, or there’s anything you want us to look into, or you’ve got some great stuff happening in your life that you just want to share you can get in contact with us. You can tweet us @´óÏó´«Ã½AccessAll, or you can send us an email accessall@bbc.co.uk. Or if WhatsApp’s your bag our number’s 0330 123 9480, and you can send us a written message or an audio note, whatever. But please, if you could, put the word Access at the beginning.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, speaking of messages we have got some lovely ones after last week’s interview with The Chase’s Ann Hegerty. You know I love Ann, don’t I?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She’s an absolute star.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I email her a little bit too much actually. Now I’ve got her email that’s it, I’m always like, thanks so much Ann, stay in touch Ann, don’t forget me Ann. Now, she did reveal to us what her autistic life is really like behind all that glitz and glamour of TV, including very detailed lists on how to complete everyday chores. Now, Ben Potts tweeted us and he said, ‘It was an excellent interview with Ann Hegerty. Very relatable examples of executive dysfunction. I’ve also broken a task like laundry into tiny more manageable steps because I can’t see the bigger picture and get motivated’. Thank you so much Ben. I’m glad you found that interesting. I found Ann hugely fascinating.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. I also think it’s just nice to hear someone who has stuff going on that’s relative and relevant to your own life. So, like Mr Sean Dilley, who was on the episode last week, and he was talking about his guide dog Sammy and retiring Sammy, he was also dreading a two-year wait for another guide dog. Sean told us that within 30 hours of all the coverage of his story, which was all over the ´óÏó´«Ã½ last Friday, the charity Guide Dogs received 110 applications from people wanting to volunteer as puppy raisers. So, hopefully that will help the whole process along.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s amazing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is that just raising a puppy then?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You get the puppy for the first 14 months of their lives, and you get them all socialised and take them to puppy classes.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then you have to give them back. But I’m not saying that that’s a bad thing because then you get another puppy. So, don’t worry about it giving it back, it’s all good.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý 110 applications, that’s brilliant. Now, Sean’s story also prompted Angus McKinnon to email accessall@bbc.co.uk all the way from North America. I love the way Angus describes himself, he says, ‘I am a blind Canadian that is owned by a guide dog, and has a neurological disorder. I find it interesting that the issues you talk about are the same as the issues we are all still fighting in North America’. He added, ‘My ancestors are from the Isle of Harris’.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah, Scottish roots.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hey. Now, we love hearing from you, and we especially love hearing from our North American listeners. We’re a global pod, aren’t we, Ems?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We are, listened to all over the world.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Spread the word.

JINGLE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Access All.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How safe do you feel going out and about, or even using social media? According to new hate crime statistics things are getting worse for disabled people. Reported incidents of violence are on the rise, and the number of cases that result in someone being charged with a crime is at 1%. Convictions are even lower. This week two national disability charities, Leonard Cheshire and United Response, released figures looking into this. And the government has released similar information. Emma, what did we find out?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The charities submitted freedom of information requests to 43 police forces in England and Wales. They heard back from 36, with the majority of saying that disability hate crime had increased in the past year. Only 1% of all hate crimes against disabled people resulted in a charge, or a Crown Prosecution Service referral. So, that’s way before any sort of court case gets the go-ahead. Remember though those are the incidents that are reported; it’s thought that this could be the tip of the iceberg.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, Cassie Lovelock has joined us today. Hello Cassie.

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And we really do appreciate you coming on to talk about something so awful but very important. So, thank you so much. Now, unfortunately you’ve experienced hate crimes as a disabled person on several occasions. But can you tell us about one of the incidents that happened to you?

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was getting on a bus in London and, I don’t know if you’ve taken buses in London but they have automatic ramps that slide out for wheelchair users to get on.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And there was this woman who was there with her baby and one of those non-folding buggies and she also wanted to get onto this bus. And we sort of got into this bit of a spat about her saying, ‘Well I need to get on this bus because my baby is asleep’ and I was sort of there like, ‘Well, it’s my right to sit on this place in the bus. You can lift up your baby, you can hold them. You have to fold down your buggy, that’s sort of the law’ and she was really angry and really refused and was like, ‘My baby’s sleeping. I don’t want to do that. I need this space on the buggy. You can wait for the next bus’. And the driver put this ramp down and I started pushing my way up and this woman pushed me out of my wheelchair off this ramp while I was trying to get in the bus.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Pushed you out of your wheelchair?

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, onto the ground. It was very humiliating.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Actually out of your wheelchair?

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. And I will say TFL, the driver he was really lovely. He was like, ‘That’s not acceptable’. He helped me onto the bus. She wasn’t allowed to go on the bus, and it sort of resolved itself. The disability I have it means it didn’t have any particularly very strong detrimental impacts. But for someone who had maybe like a brittle bone related illness that could have killed them.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did you report this incident, Cassie?

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I chose not to, mostly because it was dealt with. I’ve reported one to the police, and I’ve tried once to report one to a social media company, and that did not work.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Could you tell us about the one that you reported to the police? Is that okay?

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Essentially these two men took my wheelchair, with me in it, and sort of pushed me down the street away from where I was waiting for my boyfriend, and started threatening me. I reported this to the police maybe six days afterwards and I didn’t really hear anything back and I didn’t really get that much of a response. And these men were making sort of sexual threats at me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did your boyfriend find you? What happened?

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I essentially pushed myself straight into a road, and luckily wasn’t hit by a car. And then a security guard in a shop found me, and I asked him to call my boyfriend, and my boyfriend pushed me home.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And it must have been unbelievably terrifying for you?

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý For me, obviously it was scary, I don’t ever want to downplay that, but for me that was really awful was I was asking people around me for help, I was looking at people sort of left and right, like please help me, I’m not with these people. I always thought of it as like I guess me being disabled and me being visibly disabled really made what I was saying irrelevant to them.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What else made it a disability hate crime, in your opinion?

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t know if you’ve ever experienced other types of hate crime, but I’m black mixed race, so I’ve experienced racism in the street and hate crime in that way. And you sort of feel like, oh this is tied to my race, and oh you wouldn’t be yelling at me or treating me in this way if I was a white person. And it’s very much a similar feeling of what you’re doing now you feel entitled to do because of my disability, and if I wasn't disabled would you have picked on someone else or would you have just moved on with your day. And they feel or felt it was acceptable to take advantage of that fact and to treat me however they wanted, because of how society raises people to think about disability.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And you said it took six days to report it. How come you didn’t report it for six days?

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Mostly I wasn’t sure what it was. Partly of it was like the most extreme thing, did someone just try to kidnap me, what was this.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What just happened, yeah.

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sort of thing. And I don’t have the most faith in the police before this event, but I also didn’t want to go to the police and be shrugged off. So, I was like I need to figure out what this is and what I can go to the police with before I can start talking to them.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Were you saying there that they were quite verbal as well, verbally abusive and mentioning your disability in that way?

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. I have collapsible handlebars so they were sort of pushing those on, breathing in my face. It was during the pandemic and they didn’t have masks on, and they were clearly drunk. It was a lot of them sort of spitting on me and being like, ‘Oh does the wheelchair mean that you can’t run away? Oh, can you not run away in bed? We’ll show you a good time. Let’s post some pictures of you’.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How did all of that leave you feeling about just going out and about and doing everyday things?

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, it’s terrifying. I use a range of mobility aids, I use my wheelchair, I use crutches, I use walking sticks, all sorts of things. And even now, whichever one I’m using, I get the same anxiety about what if something happens, am I going to be able to get away, am I going to be safe. How do you get over all of these things? I don’t really think that you do.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Has it stopped you doing anything?

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yeah, absolutely. I changed where I food shop. It’s changed a lot of little things about like how is this journey safe, where is this journey going to take me, is it going into alleyways, those sorts of things. I’ve changed little things. And I’ve also changed big things about missing out opportunities in my career because I didn’t feel safe going to where they were happening, or I didn’t feel safe on public transport or the train, those sorts of things.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The Home Office released its annual hate crime figures for England and Wales at the same time as the charities. Now, it stated there had been 14,242 disability hate crimes in the year ending March 2022. An increase of 43% on the previous year, and double since 2017, with stalking and harassment offences the most commonly recorded. But when the two charities, Leonard Cheshire and United Response spoke to disabled people many said they didn’t really know what counted as a hate crime, and they wouldn’t know how to report it if something did happen to them. Now, we’re joined by Ali Gunn from United Response, which gave us these figures, and Ali is going to put all of these into perspective for us. Thank you so much for joining, Ali.

ALI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý One thing I was touching on there with Cassie is what is a hate crime and what is a disability hate crime?

ALI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The Home Office definition of hate crime is any criminal offence that’s perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by hostility or prejudice towards someone based on a personal characteristic. So, with disability hate crime we mean that any criminal offence is motivated by a person’s disability or perceived disability.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How do you go about reporting it?

ALI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There are several ways that you can report a hate crime: you can obviously go directly into a police station once a crime has happened, or after, as Cassie did, a few days later. You can call 101 if you’d rather report it by the phone. But we know that that’s not always accessible for everyone. Or you can report online on the True Visions website, which is a website run by the police specifically for disability hate crime. But we know that people can be really nervous about reporting hate crime, so there are support services set up that can help you prepare your report and help you talk through what happens and how best to describe that to the police. There’s also third party reporting centres who will actually make the report on behalf of you.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Also Ali, why are the number of incidents increasing but the charge at the end of the day why is that figure so low, that 1% figure?Ìý

ALI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, the numbers increasing could be down to a number of different factors. It could be that hate crime is on the rise; or it could be that actually reporting procedures have improved. So, whilst those numbers are rising, obviously there’s an issue there that disabled victims aren’t getting access to justice. So, this year for the first time United Response asked police forces to reveal their no-charge outcome data. That’s the reasons why a disability hate crime report didn’t result in a charge. And what we found was that around 50% of the no-charge outcomes were a result of either the victim withdrawing support, evidential difficulties despite there being a named suspect, or that the police were unable to find a suspect.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What can the disabled person do when reporting a hate crime? What sort of information would be good to include?

ALI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Whilst it’s really important for the victim to capture as much as possible what they hear, what they see, or what’s happening the date, the time, the location; we actually think it’s a duty of all of us, so the community, to support disabled victims. So, if you witness a crime you might feel uncomfortable or nervous to go up at the time, but afterwards please go up and support the victim. Give your phone number, give any information that you were able to record at that point in time about what happens.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. And Cassie, just bringing you back in, do you think there’s enough support out there for victims? Did you get any support for anywhere?

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t think I received any, but I will readily confess I didn’t look that hard.

ALI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s why it’s really important that every police force should have a disability liaison officer because that person would be your point of contact, they’d be the link between the community and the police force, ensuring that you get access to support as and when you need it. And signposting as well, because you might not feel comfortable or you're experiencing trauma, so you might not be in a place to look for it, like you described.

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Even in the most basic sense it would have been helpful to have someone just validate the fact that it was a horrible experience.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, this story crosses a whole lot of organisations, which we have reached out to. I’ve got a few statements here. The first one, a National Police Chiefs Council’s spokesperson said to us that, ‘Police always pursue action against perpetrators where there is evidence to do so. We are already working closely with our Criminal Justice partners to understand the reasons behind the reduction in the percentage of crimes that go to court. Victims should speak to the police as soon as possible after an offence has been committed’. Now, the CPS told us that of the cases referred to them by the police, that’s that 1% figure we spoke about earlier, it authorised charges in 84% of those cases last year. It added, ‘Upon conviction we always seek to apply for an increase in sentence to reflect the hate crime element’.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, thank you both so, so much. Ali, I guess United Response are going to keep on collating these figures on a yearly basis?

ALI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, absolutely. This is a really important issue for us and the people we support, and we’re not going to stop until we stamp out hate.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, thank you so much. And Cassie, you’re a superstar. Thank you so much for talking about something so horrific. We really do appreciate it. but it’s very important, so thank you so much.

CASSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you for having me.

JINGLE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Access All with Nikki Fox.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, I’ve already binged the TV series my next guests star in. It’s the fabulous brand new ´óÏó´«Ã½1 sitcom Ralph and Katie. I know Emma is a massive fan.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, I love it.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re a good man, Ralph. What I’d give for a man like you. I’m taken. For now. Perfect couple. Not perfect maybe, but at least you know you’ll never have your heart broken. Never again? What do you mean? My heart was broken once, but not by Ralph. Was it? Tell me girl? I’m not going back there.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, I love that one. The series is all about Ralph and Katie, who have Downs Syndrome. If the names sound very familiar that is because we first met both of them in the ´óÏó´«Ã½1 drama, The A Word, where they shared a few storylines with the main character and we saw them get married. Oh, that was beautiful too, I watched that. They were so popular with viewers they’ve now got their own show, which is all about the domestic challenges, and of course the bliss, that all newlyweds face in the first few months of marriage. And they’re here with us now. And Emma and I are beyond excited; we’re both very fan girly today.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It is the wonderful Sarah Gordy and Leon Harrop, and the producer of the programme, Jules Hussey.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yay.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello everyone. Ìý

JULES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi guys.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh this is the dream, this is the dream. Let’s start off. I wonder, how did you feel when you found out, following The A Word, that you were going to be getting your own primetime series?

KATIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I felt like it was amazing. I can’t wait to actually do Ralph and Katie. It’s something that I love doing with Leon. Leon is my partner in crime really.

LEON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was absolutely happy and excited. I was jumping around.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I love that you’re such a tight team and that you love working with each other so much. It’s that mix, isn’t it, because your comedy timing, both of you, is just absolutely wonderful. But then you get the emotion, and it’s the perfect balance. And you two are just phenomenal actors. Leon, I was saying I have watched quite a few episodes, and I hear you’ve got your own favourite episode and I wondered what that was.

LEON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My favourite episode is episode five.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, Ralph, why did you want to see me? I found a lump on my testicle. You’re absolutely right to come and get yourself checked out. Men with Downs Syndrome are known to be of higher risk of testicular cancer. Oh.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And how did you prepare for it, Leon?

LEON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I went to this cancer thing.

JULES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You went to an exhibition, yeah.

LEON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I learnt a lot around what it’s like to have cancer or what.

JULES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Episode three Sarah Gordy excels in. It’s a fantastic episode about caring and about how Katie learns to care for Ralph and not be like her mum.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I feel like a pothole. I think you’ve been brave. I’ve been a pillock. You haven’t, I love looking after you.

KATIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The thing is Katie’s mother can be a nightmare at times, and she’s very, very negative. But Katie doesn’t do that. She’s more caring, more loveable with Ralph and his position. And Katie’s the one that knows him.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What I love about the whole programme is okay, you guys both have Downs Syndrome, and you’re touching on areas that other people may not be familiar with, but it’s not about that at all. You’re just any married couple. Jules, I wanted to ask you, was that kind of the main drive with the series?

JULES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s about a married couple just navigating through friendship, jealousy, tensions, parents potentially splitting up. And it was really important that that was the driving force. We have an amazing group of five disabled writers that worked with each other, and they all had an episode each, and they’ve all done some fantastic stories. And Downs is touched upon occasionally. Katie gets very angry in episode one about assumptions people make about her because of her Downs Syndrome.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Every day of my life people think I can’t do things for myself. Every day I have to take that shit. But not from you, not from my husband!

JULES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They’re just people. And these guys, when they talk about their Downs Syndrome, they talk about it being not how they want to be described.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s it.

JULES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Isn’t that right, Sarah?

KATIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s not about disabilities and it’s not about Downs Syndrome; it’s about the person behind it basically. That’s what I’m always pointing out.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Assumptions. Ooh, that grinds my gears, I tell you.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Grinds my gears. Leon and Sarah, I want to ask you both this question, what was your favourite episode to film? Shall I start with you, Leon?

LEON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My favourite is episode six, right at the end.

JULES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý At the end of episode, I’ll try not to do spoilers, but Ralph and Katie make a big decision to live their lives the way that they want to, and they just do their own thing. It’s just fantastic to see.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sarah, what was your favourite filming day?

KATIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When Ralph and Katie get together and have a talk about what’s wrong with Ralph. Because it was very, very windy and very, very wet and you can’t even hear my voice that well.

JULES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sarah’s very good at remembering the worst day, aren’t you Sarah? That was in the Lake District. How many layers of clothes did you have on in the Lake District, Sarah? Can you remember?

KATIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I can’t remember. Was it 13?

JULES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was a lot of layers, wasn’t it? It’s a lovely scene with you and Nigel, who plays your dad, it was a lovely scene, but you were absolutely bloody freezing, sorry, you were absolutely freezing, weren’t you? I can tell you one big secret about Leon Harrop: in the episode three where he’s hurt his leg and he was on the sofa a lot, he was so tired that he quite often fell asleep.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Leon!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, Leon your on-screen mum, played by Pooky Quesnel, you guys are going to host a podcast series together. What do you talk about in that podcast?

LEON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re talking about all the episodes and have special guests.

JULES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý On episode four that was quite an unusual guest.

LEON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That was my mum.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah. I’m so glad you said that because, can I just say, thank you to the disabled writers who wrote this show and to Pooky Quesnel because from my experience being disabled and having a mum they’ve written the mother of a disabled person so, so brilliantly. But I’m absolutely in love with the mum character in Ralph and Katie as well. Did you and Pooky get on well on set, Leon?

LEON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve got three mums: my real mum, Tanya; I’ve got Pooky who plays my mum; and also Jules as well.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Leon, if anyone asks, tell them your real mum is your favourite.

JULES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Another mum I want to give a shout-out to is Sarah’s mum, Jane, who’s been fantastically supportive of your career, hasn’t she?

KATIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My real mum is Jane, and she always supports me, she always helps me with my lines. She’s been a great friend to me.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is this the only job you ever want to do? Do you love it, love it, love it?

KATIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I love it.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can you imagine doing anything else, Sarah?

KATIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I love doing acting because I always read books, and I think about the different characters.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it’s escapism, isn’t it? And Leon, this is the real deal for you, isn’t it? You want to carry on acting for as long as, I imagine?

LEON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have got stuff in mind, but I cannot tell you that yet.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ooh.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Secret, secret. You guys are really leading the way. Thank you so much. I just want to mention Ralph and Katie will air on Wednesday night on ´óÏó´«Ã½1, or you can binge the entire lot on iPlayer. And don’t forget you can also listen to the sitcom’s companion podcast, Inside the World of Ralph and Katie. And that’s presented by Leon and Pooky, and it dives further into living with Downs Syndrome. Thank you both so much.

LEON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s been absolutely amazing, thank you.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Good luck with it all guys. Oh, I love Leon and Sarah. I was about to say I love Ralph and Katie.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know, you really have trouble figuring out which is which, don’t you? You kid of think they’re real people, Ralph and Katie.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We love that series, don’t we?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We do. We’ll be watching the rest of the episodes and listening to the companion podcast.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, if you like what you hear subscribe to us on ´óÏó´«Ã½ Sounds and tell your friends, tell people you’re dating, tell strangers, because it really helps us get heard by others. Oh, and then also press them to subscribe as well. Oh, and then they can rate us as well.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, and they can review us too if they’ve got a few minutes spare.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, if they want to say something nice, go for your life. Bye.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bye, see you next time.

JUSTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, Sarah, we’ve been asked to put together a trail for Americast. What do you think we should put in?

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, is it too obvious to just say that we’ll be covering all the biggest stories that a coming out of America?

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We have to be prepared to tear it all up because something that we’re not expecting is going to happen.

JUSTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think that works, but it’s not just that, is it? We need to talk about the undercover voters investigation, looking at what’s happening online, what everyone’s getting in their social media feeds.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What they allow us to see is what someone who has a specific set of views or is from a specific demographic or a specific place might be seeing on their feeds. Ìý

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And of course we’ve also got to mention all the amazing guests and experts that we have on the show helping us understand the stories.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is a great talking point for him in the court of public opinion, but it is not going to go very far in a court of law.

JUSTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And Americast of course isn’t just about politics and news, is it? Can we get something in about the more cultural, the social stuff too?

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It kind of is in keeping with the conversations that we’re having in this country about race and colonialism and the legacy of those things.

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, as long as you include that I think that about covers what we do.

JUSTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then all I need to say at the end is, Americast is a podcast from ´óÏó´«Ã½ News and you can find it on ´óÏó´«Ã½ Sounds.

SARAH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, well you have just said that.

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