大象传媒

OICE- Waving hand. Party face with a party blower. Hat and confetti. Face rolling on the floor laughing. I love you, heart with stars.聽

EMMA- I love you, heart with stars, that鈥檚 what you sent to me.聽

NIKKI- Ah, yeah, we did that earlier, didn鈥檛 we?

EMMA- Yeah, an emoji.

NIKKI- I have no idea what happens when you send emojis to people who are blind, like Emma. She was like, send me a heart and you can hear it. And it went, hear with stars.聽

EMMA- But I did see an emoji last night that was grinning face with one small and one large eye. That just did not conjure anything up for me.聽

NIKKI- What emoji鈥檚 that?

EMMA- Well, apparently it missed out the bit where there was a big tongue lolling outside one side of the mouth, which apparently鈥�

NIKKI- Drunk?

EMMA- I think it鈥檚 not a very nice way of saying that something鈥檚 a bit mad.聽

NIKKI- Oh okay.

EMMA- A bit crazy. I think. But if you don鈥檛 know what it is I鈥檓 not going to know what it is.聽

NIKKI- No, I鈥檝e no idea. I鈥檓 useless at emojis.聽

EMMA- I am a smiling lump of pooh at emojis.聽

NIKKI- Pooh, yeah.聽

EMMA- And another one I really don鈥檛 like is distressed face vomiting.聽

NIKKI- No, that鈥檚 awful. When would you use that?

EMMA- That must sound worse than it looks. It must.聽

NIKKI- I don鈥檛 think I鈥檝e ever distress face vomited.

EMMA- Oh god. Beth, the producer, is now just emoji bombarding me. Hang on.聽

VOICE- Message: woman shrugging.聽

EMMA- Woman shrugging.聽

NIKKI- I didn鈥檛 even think emojis had genders.聽

VOICE- Message: cat characters.

EMMA- Are you ready for this one?

VOICE- Message: screaming in fear cat face.

EMMA- Did you get that one?聽

NIKKI- Fear in what face?

EMMA- Screaming in fear cat face.

NIKKI- What鈥檚 a cat face?

EMMA- It鈥檚 a face of a cat I assume. I guess this one is screaming in fear.聽

NIKKI- A cat that鈥檚 just been run over?聽

EMMA- Or just about to be run over!

NIKKI- Yeah, cat in the headlights.

EMMA- Meow.聽

MUSIC- Theme.

NIKKI- It鈥檚 Access All, our weekly disability and mental health podcast from the 大象传媒. I鈥檓 Nikki Fox and I鈥檓 in London.聽

EMMA- And I鈥檓 Emma Tracey and I鈥檓 in Edinburgh. Now, Nikki is not going to be happy about this. In fact I think she鈥檚 going to be raging. But I got to speak to Ellie Simmonds. Sorry Nikki. [Strictly Come Dancing theme tune] We鈥檝e been cheering on our favourite dancer, Ellie Simmonds, OBE, on Access All. So, when she and her dance partner, Nikita Kuzmin, went out on Sunday our WhatsApp group absolutely exploded with angry face and sad face emojis. I was very, very emotional all together, I have to say. It鈥檚 a clich茅, but the five-time Paralympic gold medal winner captured the hearts of everyone who saw her perform. I am honoured and completely delighted to have Ellie Simmonds here for a chat with me. Hi Ellie, how are you?

ELLIE- Hello. Thank you ever so much for that introduction. That鈥檚 so lovely.

EMMA- Oh, you deserve every single bit of it. And it鈥檚 your birthday!

ELLIE- It is. I鈥檓 28. I love birthdays, so yeah, it鈥檚 very exciting.聽

EMMA- Do you?聽

ELLIE- Yeah, I do, I do.聽

EMMA- What are your plans?

ELLIE- Well, I鈥檓 off to America now. I鈥檓 off to Washington DC just to get a break away. After the confidence that I got from Strictly I鈥檓 like I can do anything, so I thought I鈥檒l go to Washington for a bit because it鈥檚 always somewhere that I鈥檝e always wanted to go. As a kid I loved the National Treasure with Nicholas Cage, and I always wanted to go and see the Declaration of Independence. So, I thought I鈥檒l go there for a couple of days, and then I鈥檓 going to go and visit my friend in Colorado.聽

EMMA- So, what have you been up to this week, first of all, since you finished with Strictly?

ELLIE- Just really trying to process everything. Like I was speaking to my other Strictly family who have departed from the show already, and we all say the same thing: it鈥檚 like a loss in a way. It鈥檚 a weird feeling. For me I was dancing for seven weeks, and that鈥檚 all I had planned, that鈥檚 all I was doing. I was literally living and sleeping and thinking about Strictly Come Dancing. And then all of a sudden that goes and it鈥檚 out of your control. It鈥檚 just afterthought, just trying to process it all. Like I鈥檓 not with Nikita anymore, I鈥檓 not dancing, it鈥檚 just trying to process it. And I鈥檓 just busy with other stuff now, which is nice because I love being busy, I love being proactive and doing lots of things. And I鈥檝e got another documentary that I put on pause whilst I鈥檓 doing this. Just loads of other little bits. Just enjoying every bit.聽

EMMA- Let鈥檚 get on to Strictly. What鈥檚 it been like? Just tell me, I want to know everything.聽

ELLIE- It鈥檚 been absolutely incredible. I鈥檝e had the time of my life. And I think for me, like you said, with the disability side Strictly is a huge, huge show, it鈥檚 a huge, huge programme, millions and millions of people on a Saturday night watch the show, and to have that opportunity to be part of that platform of representation for disability and the dwarfism community was a huge, huge honour. I鈥檝e never actually been on a show that has been so accommodating and so amazing. Even like when I go to Claudia鈥檚 section or when I do It Takes Two they always have a stool there for me, they give me a bit extra time to walk down the stairs, they put things lower in my dressing room so that I could reach things. They just did it. And the whole team behind the screen are literally so welcoming, so accommodating, make me feel so ease. Nikita was amazing with me. And what he did to adapt the dancing, like he鈥檚 a 24 year old, he鈥檚 never danced with an individual with dwarfism before, and it just came so natural to him.聽

EMMA- Is he the main choreographer?聽

ELLIE- No, he鈥檚 the choreographer for just me and him. So, he鈥檚 the one that thinks of all the ideas for each week.聽

EMMA- And how did you and he adapt the dances?聽

ELLIE- So, at the start when we first started training he just started chatting to me and just got to understand what I could do, what I couldn鈥檛 do. And from thereon when we got really comfortable and really good friends with each other we would just chat about it, and he鈥檇 be like, 鈥楥an you do this? Can you do that?鈥� And then when he got to know me he just thought of all the ideas in his mind. So, it was the stride length, it was again with dwarfism and achondroplasia I鈥檝e got bowing of the legs, so with the Cha-Cha-Cha and some of the leg movements you鈥檝e got to go fully straight which I can鈥檛 do, so he was aware of that. Again, the height difference with the hold, the likes of the Paso Doble he was doing it on his knees. And he was just doing the dances so it worked and suited for me so on a Saturday night it was able for me to go out there and shine because of the ideas and the choreography and the things that he did. We would get a couple of hours off before we start back on Monday, and on those times where I would be resting, I would be sleeping, catching up, he would be working away and thinking of the dance for the week ahead. So, in a way these pro dancers they never stop. They鈥檙e literally amazing. They鈥檙e thinking of things, they鈥檙e dancing, they鈥檙e dancing with us, they鈥檙e teaching stuff, they鈥檙e doing stuff all the time. And him having that extra just bit of a challenge, which wasn鈥檛 a challenge for him; he absolutely loved it.聽

EMMA- Do you think, I mean we know that Nikita is type 1 diabetic, we can see the monitor on his arm when he鈥檚 dancing, both of you having something additional to consider do you think that was actually a positive?

ELLIE- Definitely. We chat about it. But I think, like he said it the other day, and I say it, like we forget; we just see each other as I see him as Nikita and he sees me as Ellie. I鈥檝e got dwarfism, he鈥檚 got diabetes, we鈥檝e all got a story to tell. He鈥檚 exactly like me. His personality is exactly like me: he鈥檚 competitive, he鈥檚 driven, he鈥檚 determined. And I think that helps as well because we just go out there and we just do our thing. Like he loves dancing, I鈥檝e fallen in love with dancing too, and we just go out there and we just dance our hearts out every day and every Saturday night.

EMMA- A little guy I know has just been diagnosed with type 1 diabetes, and they鈥檝e been watching you and Nikita and he cried when you left because Nikita was such a great role model for him, so special. Really genuinely useful for people, and useful for people with dwarfism as well to see you. And we鈥檝e heard of a number of families whose children it鈥檚 made such a big difference to them.聽

ELLIE- Oh, that definitely touches the heart, and I鈥檒l let Nikita know that. Because, again, he loves going out there and representing the diabetic community, and for me the same with the disability and dwarfism community. When you get those messages it means so, so much. We do it for those people. Yes, we do it for ourselves and I do it for myself, but we鈥檙e going out there on a Saturday night and we鈥檙e representing so many different people out there, not just showing them they can dance, but the education, the awareness that we aren鈥檛 all average height or a certain way. We are all different and we can do anything if we put our minds to it.聽

EMMA- Do you think actually being a Paralympian helped with the training and the approach to it all?聽

ELLIE- It did help, no definitely, because some of the skills that I learnt from my swimming days, not just physical but mental, with the nerves and the pressure, those skills that I did as a swimmer to cope with those I did it on a Saturday night.聽

EMMA- So, what kinds of skills? What can I learn?聽

ELLIE- So, when you get really, really nervous again your heart rate raises. For me I just think about my breathing, I focus on something that鈥檚 stable. So, when I would walk on the dancefloor I would either look at Nikita or I would look at the glitter ball up on the roof; just two things to forget about all the people that are watching, to forget about the TV, to forget about the judges and the spectators. Those little things. And just realising that nerves are okay, it shows that you care, it shows that you want to go out there and do well, it鈥檚 passion. So, just flicking it from the anxiety side and thinking it鈥檚 positive, your body鈥檚 getting ready to go out there and show the world what you鈥檙e made of.聽

EMMA- Do you get to keep your costumes? Does everyone get to keep them? I鈥檓 very keen that you get to keep those dresses basically.聽

ELLIE- Yes, I鈥檝e taken two actually, my two favourite ones. I鈥檝e just kept them for myself as a memory. It was the gold dress on my first dance, and my red dress on my last dance. And it was so nice of them. I probably won鈥檛 wear them when I鈥檓 going out to the shops or anything, but they鈥檙e definitely ones that I鈥檒l just keep as fond memories.聽

EMMA- In terms of hair and make-up are there any tips that you鈥檙e going to take forward now into your life? Because it feels like such a privilege to be able to have that done for seven weeks in a row.聽

ELLIE- Oh, I鈥檓 going to miss that. I鈥檓 literally going to miss the fake tan, the hair, the make-up, the costumes, all of it because it鈥檚 so amazing. And every Saturday night we would go and sit in there and get transformed into looking so different. I鈥檝e learnt some skills, but also I鈥檝e made friends with the people that made us, the hair, the make-up department.聽

EMMA- Very good friends to have.聽

ELLIE- Yes, definitely, definitely. I think that鈥檚 the thing with Strictly, it鈥檚 not just about the dancing but there鈥檚 so much that goes on behind the scenes, there鈥檚 so much friendship, there鈥檚 so much family, there鈥檚 so much love, there鈥檚 so much happiness that happens behind closed scenes. It takes over your life but in such a positive way. So, that鈥檚 why I think when you leave or when it鈥檚 finished a piece of your heart鈥檚 gone because it鈥檚 seven weeks of intense fun.聽

EMMA- I know, you said it was like a breakup. Are you able to tell me who you think is going to win? Who do you reckon is going to win, Ellie?

ELLIE- I can鈥檛 say this, I really, really can鈥檛 say this because I love them all and they all deserve it so much.聽

EMMA- I鈥檓 going to support Hamza from here on in, not because he鈥檚 one of the favourites, though that鈥檚 handy, but because I鈥檝e got small kids and we watch him on the telly.

ELLIE- Yeah, they鈥檙e literally all so lovely. I love them all.聽

EMMA- What are you going to do next? You鈥檙e going to America, you鈥檝e got the documentary going on.聽

ELLIE- Yeah.

EMMA- Is there anything else we need to be aware of?聽

ELLIE- I鈥檇 love to travel more. I鈥檇 love to swim with humpbacks.聽

EMMA- You kind of missed all that, didn鈥檛 you? Because you鈥檇 been swimming since you were 13.

ELLIE- Definitely. And I think, like you said, with the swimming I had my life planned out for so many years, I knew where I鈥檇 got to be every single day. Whereas now it鈥檚 like that chapter of my life鈥檚 finished and it鈥檚 like a new one. And it鈥檚 just like trying to figure out what I want to do next.聽

EMMA- Do you ever get into a swimming pool?聽

ELLIE- I did before Strictly, and I will go back to it definitely, because again swimming is my sport, it鈥檚 a sport that I love to do. I only normally swim for about 20 minutes, half an hour, but again it helps more mentally as well.聽

EMMA- It must be a joy to just get in for half an hour and then get out and go, yeah, I don鈥檛 need to prove anything.聽

ELLIE- Oh yeah, it is so, so nice.聽

EMMA- Ellie, it鈥檚 been an absolute pleasure. I have loved chatting to you. Thank you so, so much.聽

ELLIE- Thank you very much for having me on and chatting away. It鈥檚 been wonderful.聽

MUSIC- Access All.聽

NIKKI- Ems, I feel like we鈥檝e talked about dating quite a bit on the podcast, haven鈥檛 we? But we haven鈥檛 spoken so much about relationships. And as you know, and as regular listeners might know, I am obviously very much in love with my fella, Dave, who is a gardener. I have not been in love like this and I鈥檝e not been in a serious relationship like this.聽

EMMA- Why do you always say that he鈥檚 a gardener?聽

NIKKI- I love that he鈥檚 a gardener. I鈥檓 really proud of it. It鈥檚 like the way I always talk about my dad and I say he鈥檚 a builder. I just like those kinds of jobs. I鈥檝e always aspired to be with someone that has a job that actually means something. I never want anyone in TV.聽

EMMA- Proper, useful, practical, sensible job.

NIKKI- Yeah. And he makes things look beautiful. It鈥檚 still kind of fairly new territory for me really, being in a serious relationship. I mean, I know you鈥檝e been in it for a while, haven鈥檛 you, because you鈥檙e actually married.聽

EMMA- Oh yeah, I鈥檓 married nine years now, and I met my husband when I was 23 so I was quite young. When I was a teenager I didn鈥檛 have boyfriends. I kissed boys, but I didn鈥檛 have boyfriends up until sort of university time. I did feel like that was because I couldn鈥檛 see, and I felt like why would someone go out with me when they can go out with someone who can see to do their make-up and their hair and who can run around and stuff. That was how I felt at the time for sure.聽

NIKKI- Really?

EMMA- But then you did have boyfriends then at that stage of your life?聽

NIKKI- Yeah, I did. I dated like a ninja. No, I had a few, they were never very serious though. Back then I think I was quite confident in that department. That was when I used to walk 鈥� I鈥檝e told you this before 鈥� but I walked very badly, so I was very obviously disabled. I probably looked more disabled back then than I do in a scooter.聽

EMMA- You were differently mobile.聽

NIKKI- I was differently mobile. I like that. It鈥檚 one of those things sometimes I鈥檇 be at a bar and I鈥檇 be standing up and then a guy would come up to me and start flirting with me and ask me out, and I鈥檇 have to like say, 鈥楿m yeah, it鈥檚 really awkward, but when I walk off you鈥檙e going to notice that I鈥檓 disabled鈥�. And I used to say it, and often it didn鈥檛 used to bother anyone and it was fine. I was all right, and then about 25 I started using a scooter. But that was also around the same time that I started getting a serious proper job as well. So, I just thought get my head down and work. And then I just didn鈥檛 think about boys at all. And I don鈥檛 know whether it was the fact that I was coming to terms with the fact that I wasn鈥檛 walking quite as much, that I was in a scooter. I probably saw myself slightly differently than I did when I was walking. Probably all of that was going on; I didn鈥檛 really give it much thought.聽

EMMA- Disabled people are actually more likely, aren鈥檛 they, to be later on in their lives before a long-term relationship comes along.聽

NIKKI- That鈥檚 it, date later on in life. When I met Dave I was 40, and I knew pretty much that I loved him. He knows that. And I know that he loved me too, but obviously he took a little bit longer because I鈥檓 just an open book and I just look at him and I鈥檓 like I love you, not playing it cool in the slightest. But I鈥檝e had to learn to not be perfect all the time. And what I mean by that is I鈥檓 very independent, I have my PAs, I鈥檝e got my job, I want people to see the happy, fun, bubbly Nikki all the time. Which is just ridiculous, you can鈥檛 live that way. And when you have a boyfriend obviously you have to let go. I鈥檝e had to allow him to do some things for me, like personal things that I do with my PAs, which I never dreamed of doing that with another fella.聽

The big thing for me when I started dating Dave was I was thinking okay, so when I go to the bathroom I will need a bit of a hand, that is just to sit down and to stand up, okay. But I need someone; I can鈥檛 do it without someone. That ship sailed back in my 20s. And I was like how do I do that, because if I鈥檓 going to spend any longer than eight hours with him, I鈥檓 going to have to ask him. So, when we first started dating I planned it so that one of my PAs would meet me wherever we were and I would sneak off for 15 minutes and come back. Then I was like okay, this isn鈥檛 going to be viable long term, right. He鈥檚 so intuitive my fella, and so empathetic and wonderful, I remember this distinctly: we were like a good couple of months in, we were getting to the point where we were definitely going to be staying over with each other, and as we were saying goodbye he came to my window and he goes, 鈥榃ell, I guess for you now you鈥檝e just got to put up with me giving you a hand going to the bathroom, haven鈥檛 you?鈥� And I was like ah, and I cried a bit. It鈥檚 really sad, isn鈥檛 it?

EMMA- So, he named it. he was like, the only way I鈥檓 going to get longer with Nikki in one go is to name this and to say, I know you鈥檙e doing this, I know you need help with this.

NIKKI- Yeah. And he had to be the first person to say it because I wasn鈥檛 going to be. I was trying but it just never came out of my mouth. I鈥檇 be like say goodnight at 10 o鈥檆lock in the evening, bye, and off I鈥檇 go home.聽

EMMA- Isn鈥檛 it funny how you do 40 years of being disabled and there are still things that you struggle with? When we began to go out, I think really before we had the children, I didn鈥檛 need any external support. But when we had the kids I realised that I needed some external support, and there were long conversations with him. And he probably was more comfortable with it before I was. He鈥檚 visually impaired too, but I鈥檓 totally blind, and he has some sight. And that was an enormous change for us. So, we went from having nobody external in the house really, to having PAs in the house. It鈥檚 a really interesting one in how that works when there are PAs because we鈥檙e much more able to do things and get the kids out and get stuff to the tip and do all those sorts of exciting things. But there鈥檚 another person involved. Something I navigate still is when we go on holiday to somewhere that鈥檚 outside of my environment. Because my house is my castle, I know where everything is and I鈥檝e got, well I should have stuff labelled, but I鈥檓 not organised enough. And then when we go to an unfamiliar place there鈥檚 a lot of him doing things because it鈥檚 quicker, because I don鈥檛 know where everything is to do them. And that鈥檚 something I still navigate in my head. I mean, he does not care at all; but it鈥檚 still something that I feel things about when I鈥檓 less physically able to run about and do things when I鈥檓 in an unfamiliar place.聽

NIKKI- So, you鈥檝e been with Robin for 17 years, haven鈥檛 you?聽

EMMA- Roughly.聽

NIKKI- It鈥檚 all new to me. Give me some tips and advice, Emma.聽

EMMA- I think talk honestly about what you need, and what they need, and what鈥檚 needed in the family, and see who can do it and when we need the PAs and when we don鈥檛, and when we need some help or we need to not do something. So, it鈥檚 a really honest conversation about cutting your cloth and figuring out how to make the next move. So, very much a lot of honesty, a lot of chat, a lot of talking through things. And then you have to do it less and less because you sort of know and you get into your routines and stuff.聽

NIKKI- As I get older as well I do want to be able to try and do as many things and keep doing as many things as possible. And even now with the design of the house, before we do the bathroom I want to work out, okay if we design it like this that will force me to still have to walk a few steps to get to here, and to walk a few steps to get to there. And when I say walk it鈥檚 horrendous, and my neck goes back and I have to do it with somebody else, but it still keeps me fit and strong, so I鈥檓 still pushing myself. I am thinking about all of these things to one, keep strong, and two, keep as independent as possible. Because it does sometimes get tiring. It will obviously get tiring for the other person, but for me it gets tiring asking people all the time.聽

EMMA- Yes.聽

NIKKI- And I get sick of the sound of my own voice. And I know if I wasn鈥檛 disabled I鈥檇 be a real doer.聽

EMMA- Yeah, I think I would be a runner.聽

NIKKI- Yeah, me too.聽

EMMA- I would run around a lot.聽

NIKKI- Yeah, 100%.

EMMA- But think of a long-term relationship in some ways as having the same PA for a long time. You don鈥檛 have to say lots of things now. But also their expectations of you are as high as they can be too, because they know everything that you can do, and they can say, 鈥楴o you鈥檙e perfectly able to do that, I鈥檝e got this to do so I鈥檒l see you later鈥�.聽

NIKKI- That is in a way a bit of a controversial thing to say because a lot of people do actually assume, don鈥檛 they, that if you鈥檙e with somebody, I mean Dave鈥檚 not disabled, so I wonder if people assume that I鈥檝e just hooked up with him so that he could be my carer. I mean, someone I know did say to me, I think they said something about him being a very good man, because obviously he will have caring responsibilities as well. At which point I just sort of stuttered, no please no, no, no.聽

EMMA- Oh my goodness. And the thing about the partner PA, the only time that happened to me was in an airport when someone called my husband my dad. And I mean he is nine years older than me, but also he has albinism, which means that he has white hair, so someone obviously just saw the back of him or whatever, or just assumed, or whatever. But he has been called my dad for sure.聽

NIKKI- Well, I鈥檝e seen your hubby and he doesn鈥檛 look like your dad, Em.聽

EMMA- Thank you.聽

NIKKI- You know what, when you mentioned before about being blind, in my head so you know what I thought straightaway? I鈥檓 really sad that you didn鈥檛 see how amazing you looked on your wedding day.聽

EMMA- Oh, that鈥檚 a bit patronising! [Laughter]

NIKKI- I know, but I don鈥檛 care! You looked so stunning, Ems.聽

EMMA- I know.聽

NIKKI- How do you know?聽

EMMA- Because I鈥� You remember we were taking about a TV show off air?

NIKKI- Yeah.聽

EMMA- And I said, 鈥業s that girl beautiful? Because she sounds beautiful鈥�?聽

NIKKI- Yeah.聽

EMMA- And I think a lot of it is around, I can imagine she had lovely clothes and she was really confident. And that day I felt like a million dollars because I had the big dress, which I actually regret because it was really, really heavy, I was getting married, I was so happy. And I had everything arranged, and I had my make-up done, I鈥檇 had my hair done. I鈥檇 put the work in. You鈥檙e not the first person to say it, 鈥業 wish you knew how you looked鈥�. I mean, no one鈥檚 actually said, I wish you knew how awful you looked in any moment, which is interesting.聽

NIKKI- Well, there you go, you patronising friend on the podcast has just said. [Laughter]

MUSIC- Access All with Nikki Fox.

EMMA- It鈥檚 been a wild few weeks in the world of social media. Billionaire Tesla owner, Elon Musk, bought Twitter and promptly sacked half the staff. According to one engineering manager who was tweeting about it, his entire accessibility team for the company was fired too. Twitter is a lifeline for many disabled people who use it to connect with people and communities all over the world. Listeners have been in touch to say that they are worried about these changes, and some are thinking of leaving Twitter all together. And that鈥檚 because of lack of access, and also in a protest against access changes. I鈥檓 joined by the 大象传媒鈥檚 tech extraordinaire TV presenter Paul Carter from 大象传媒 Click and 大象传媒 World鈥檚 TechXplore, and L茅onie Watson, a prolific tweeter and director of TetraLogical, an accessibility consultancy company. Hello. Hi Paul, hi L茅onie, thanks for joining me. It鈥檚 been a bit of a week, hasn鈥檛 it, Paul? What鈥檚 been happening in terms of Twitter and accessibility?聽

PAUL- Yeah, as you said, it鈥檚 sort of seen the culmination of the saga that has been Elon Musk buying Twitter for the pocket change, I guess we could call it, of $44 billion. One of the big things particularly that鈥檚 affecting us as disabled people is the removal of seemingly the entire accessibility team. That was part of a wider plan of job cuts that he undertook when he took over the company. We don鈥檛 have an exact number, but it鈥檚 expected to be around 50% of the workforce. It鈥檚 an interesting time, obviously a worrying time and a traumatic time for anyone working for Twitter. But for the rest of us that use it and rely on it on a daily basis it鈥檚 kind of an uncertain period really.聽

EMMA- When was the accessibility team formed and what did it actually do?聽

PAUL- So, it鈥檚 quite interesting really. In terms of other tech companies Twitter was quite late to accessibility, if I can use that phrase. Their accessibility team was only really established in 2020, so only a couple of years ago. And that was actually following a kind of backlash against a new feature that they launched, the capability to do voice tweets. And at the time there was quite a big kickback from particularly the deaf community that there was no auto-transcription of those tweets built into the product. And people were asking, well how is it possible that you鈥檙e launching a feature like this without having thought about the accessibility implications. And it became clear at that time that it鈥檚 because there wasn鈥檛 an accessibility team, and it wasn鈥檛 really kind of baked into their product road map. So, the accessibility team was kind of founded out of that only two years ago. So, it鈥檚 a real shame 鈥� that鈥檚 probably a mild way of putting it 鈥� that it鈥檚 been disbanded.聽

EMMA- Who will be affected most by the sacking of the accessibility team?聽

PAUL- We鈥檙e not really sure yet on the impact of what it鈥檚 going to be. But it鈥檚 unlikely that any probably existing features are going to be removed. But it does raise the question about what鈥檚 going to happen going forward in terms of the future development of any more features, about making the service more accessible; or just simply maintaining the ones that currently exist.聽

EMMA- So, like if they change things and fix bugs and stuff like that they won鈥檛 be maybe considering accessibility as much as they were before?聽

PAUL- Exactly. The position of a lot of major tech companies now is that accessibility is what they call kind of baked in. And it鈥檚 when they do launch new features or new products, but they鈥檙e working with accessibility in mind to see how that might be incorporated or what challenges that might raise. With Twitter not having that now there鈥檚 a big black hole there and it鈥檚 kind of a real worrying question as to what鈥檚 going to happen going forward.聽

EMMA- L茅onie, you鈥檙e a prolific Twitter user and you have been for many years. What made you join in the first place?聽

LEONIE- Well, I was until they started sacking everybody. I started using Twitter because it just appealed to me as a way to communicate with people, particularly with people from within my own industry, within the accessibility and the red field. But as I got more and more into using it I just thought it was a great way to tune into what people with other interests and hobbies were saying. I ended up following everybody from journalists, many of the 大象传媒 accounts for example, through to authors, musicians, for finding out more about the social aspects of having a disability and what people were doing, the hacks, the workarounds, the YouTube videos to watch, all of that kind of stuff.聽

EMMA- As a fellow blind person I think one of the things that appealed to me about Twitter was that it was very, very text based at the beginning, there might have been the odd picture, but most information wasn鈥檛 delivered via picture, if you know what I mean.聽

LEONIE- Yes, that certainly was a huge advantage. Just earlier this year the Twitter accessibility team made adding text descriptions to images that much more a prominent feature. So, a huge stride forward in terms of accessibility, as you can鈥檛 speak pictures, so that just makes the whole recent situation just worse unfortunately.聽

EMMA- Yeah, we鈥檙e quite in the dark, aren鈥檛 we, over Elon Musk鈥檚 plans for Twitter. But what are your biggest fears?聽

LEONIE- My biggest fear has just been realised: he has just removed the entire accessibility team. I can understand from a business point of view that Twitter was losing $4 million a day, so obviously you鈥檝e got to do something about that, that鈥檚 not sustainable from a business point of view. But downsizing the workforce is one thing; the way he鈥檚 done it is another, and the areas in which he's chosen to make the cuts that鈥檚 the extraordinary bit to me.聽

EMMA- And where will you go if you decide to leave Twitter.聽

LEONIE- I have been using something called Mastodon.聽

EMMA- Oh yeah? Is it accessible?聽

LEONIE- Not as much as Twitter unfortunately. I am hoping that the recent mass migration towards it will encourage them to pull their socks up a bit and make it more accessible. It is possible to use with a screen reader, but it鈥檚 not as usable as Twitter is. Partly because the apps, as far as I鈥檓 aware, aren鈥檛 really accessible at all. But people expecting it to be live Twitter it鈥檚 a bit of a shock to the system. But there are other options, Cohost is another one that seems to be gaining a bit of ground.聽

EMMA- To be honest the Twitter changes has been a hot topic for lots of our listeners as well, and we鈥檝e received a lot of messages, so thank you for those. Carrie says, 鈥楾witter is a lifeline for so many people like me with MS. It gives support, friendship and information, and I would be devastated to lose this鈥�. And Robert Ryan says, he does understand the concerns but, 鈥楩or me Twitter has been great when it hasn鈥檛 always been easy for me to get out and about, whether that be lockdown or shielding or just inclement weather鈥�. And someone who didn鈥檛 give their name said, 鈥楽eriously considering leaving Twitter due to the changes. Letting go the accessibility team is a huge reason why鈥�. So, I think those responses cover the spectrum of what disabled people think. L茅onie was talking about Mastodon; where else are people going? Or is that really the main spot, do you think, away from Twitter I mean?聽

PAUL- There鈥檚 also a couple of smaller ones, Tribal Social. If you鈥檙e of a particular political persuasion there鈥檚 also things like Parler, or Donald Trump鈥檚 Truth Social. But one thing that has made me smile in the last couple of days is that Tumblr is making a bit of a resurgence. So, 2007 internet me is very pleased about that; retreating to what鈥檚 cosy and what we know and what鈥檚 warm. It鈥檚 a bit like a warm internet hug going back to Tumblr.

EMMA- Oh, Tumblr is not cosy for me. L茅onie what do you think about this Tumblr business? Would you go back to Tumblr, L茅onie?

LEONIE- I鈥檝e never really used Tumblr. But actually I have moved to another variation on that which is Micro.blog, which as the name suggests is a mini blog, where rather than posting 300, 400-word blog posts, you post your Twitteresque statements and posts. That idea of going back to some of the older tech, as Paul mentioned, I鈥檝e been listening to you feeling exactly the same, I think it鈥檚 very nice actually in some respects going back to some of those basics. There鈥檚 a lot to be said for that because those technologies have been around a long time and it turns out they鈥檙e here to step in to fill a bridge now that鈥檚 cropped up here. So, that鈥檚 worth thinking about in the scheme of things.聽

EMMA- There has been mention of the Metaverse. Could you please explain the Metaverse to my granny in a really simple couple of sentences, starting with, the Metaverse is鈥�? Go.聽

PAUL- Wow, okay. The Metaverse is something that you experience at the moment by wearing some sort of headset or glasses. And it鈥檚 essentially a virtual environment or world that you experience that isn鈥檛 really there. it鈥檚 something that you can either look at that overlays on the world around聽 you, or that you kind of step into via a headset or some kind of wearable contraption that you put on your head. Would your granny understand that?聽

EMMA- I think I understood it. L茅onie, your top accessibility tip is: it doesn鈥檛 have to be perfect, it just has to be a little bit better than yesterday. Do you think in general we鈥檙e going in the right direction?聽

LEONIE- Yes, I do. Although it doesn鈥檛 always feel like that when you鈥檙e using a lot of technology and things. The reason I say with that much conviction that I think it is moving in the right direction is there鈥檚 an open slack workspace chat platform for people interested in accessibility. Seven or eight years ago when it got started there were about 20 or so people; there鈥檚 nearly 10,000 people there now.聽

EMMA- Wow.聽

LEONIE- So, just that sheer change in this is now a mainstream thing, lots of people are doing it, interested in it, promoting it.聽

EMMA- L茅onie Watson and Paul Carter, thank you so much for explaining all of this to little old me. I really appreciate it.聽

Before I go, Access All had heard word that the new Minister for Disabled People is [drum roll] MP Tom Pursglove. Tom was one of two MPs Nikki narrowed it down to on last week鈥檚 episode. He鈥檚 the MP for Corby, a mere 34 years old, and Tom previously served as Minister of State for Immigration. He also has a personal invite from Nikki and myself to take tea at Access All House.聽

You lucky things, you can subscribe to Access All on 大象传媒 Sounds. Please do that. Please tell your friends to do that. Tell them to rate us and review us, because I know you鈥檝e done it already. Thank you very much, it really helps us. And Nikki is back next week. I cannot wait to see her, hear all about her holidays. Looking forward to it. See you then. Bye.聽

Ellie, obviously I said we were finished, what did you and Nikita used to talk about? Because he said you鈥檇 talk about anything but dancing; what kinds of things?聽

ELLIE- Oh, we used to talk about everything. We went skydiving yesterday.聽

EMMA- No way!

ELLIE- Yeah. Because again it鈥檚 my birthday, he wanted to get something special for me. And it was like 鈥楨l, let鈥檚 go skydiving鈥�. I was like, 鈥極kay, let鈥檚 do it after I get back from America鈥�. And then the night before he was like, 鈥業鈥檝e booked us in鈥�. I was like, 鈥極h my gosh, Nikita, I can鈥檛 even process it鈥�. But literally it was amazing. It was so fun. I loved the freefall at the start. I thought jumping out the plane would be quite scary but that was my favourite.聽

EMMA- You don鈥檛 jump though. They just literally push you from behind.聽

ELLIE- Yeah.

EMMA- When I did it they just sort of push you out the plane.聽

ELLIE- I know, it was amazing. I probably wouldn鈥檛 do it again, but it鈥檚 definitely ticked off my bucket list now and I鈥檝e done it.聽

EMMA- Was it a tandem jump?聽

ELLIE- Oh yeah, it was a tandem jump. Oh gosh, I could not have done that on my own.聽

[Trailer]

CLIP- 鈥業 could feel our house shaking.鈥� 鈥楾hat was one of the scariest battles.鈥� 鈥業鈥檓 traumatised.鈥� 鈥業鈥檓 completely destroyed.鈥櫬�

VICTORIA- Hello, I鈥檓 Victoria Derbyshire, one of the hosts of Ukrainecast. We actually put out the first episode of Ukrainecast on the very first day of the war when Russia invaded Ukraine.聽

MALE- This is a European country and it鈥檚 at war. It鈥檚 extraordinary.聽

VICTORIA- So much has happened since then, and all the way through we鈥檝e been trying to tell people鈥檚 stories, what鈥檚 really happening on the ground in Ukraine.聽

CLIP- My elder daughter was lying on the ground. She had been dead.

VICTORIA- And we鈥檒l be here for you, making sense of it all for as long as we need to be.

CLIP- 鈥楶eople were being snatched and disappearing.鈥� 鈥楶eople took to the streets even after the Ukrainian forces had gone.鈥櫬�

VICTORIA- Ukrainecast is made by the same 大象传媒 News team that makes this podcast.聽

CLIP- This is it, this is the war of the direst evil against all of humanity.聽

VICTORIA- Listen to Ukrainecast on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. Just search for Ukrainecast on 大象传媒 Sounds.