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Transcript of 1800 Seconds on Autism Episode with Holly Smale

INTRO 大象传媒 Sounds, Music. Radio, Podcasts.

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Automated Voice 1800 seconds on Autism.

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Speaker 2 With Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight.

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Holly Smale I think since diagnosis, it's still early days, but it has definitely changed the way I approach things, and I'm very slowly starting to unmask, starting to be myself, starting to ask for what I need. For me. It's taken a really long time. I mean, I'm 41 and I've, it's been majority of my life spent basically alone, not just romantically, but just generally.

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Robyn Steward Hello. You are listening to 1800 seconds on autism. I'm Robyn Steward.

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Jamie Knight And I'm Jamie Knight. Welcome back to the podcast. And don't forget, you can find all of our episodes on 大象传媒 sounds, or wherever you get your podcast from.

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Robyn Steward Today, we're navigating the complex world of relationships. But don't worry, this isn't going to be like love on the spectrum. Actually, love on the spectrum is quite good. It's not going to be like The Undateables. We are going to be chatting to Holly Smale, autistic author of The Geek Girl Book series, and is about to publish her first adult romance novel.

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Jamie Knight As well as chatting to Holly. We'll also be hearing from you listeners on your top tips for Finding Love.

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Robyn Steward So, Holly, you diagnosed recently. Has it changed your love life in any way?

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Holly Smale 听Well, I mean, because of the pandemic, I was diagnosed during isolation and pandemic. So sadly, that kind of didn't allow me to get straight back into it. But I've been kind of tentatively dating since my diagnosis. And it is changing. Things like my ability, mind my knowing of myself has obviously skyrocketed. So when it was before and I think a lot of my focus before was, like I said, masking and trying to be what the other person needed me to be struggling with boundaries, struggling with red flags, just don't see red flags. They're just not there for me. I don't spot dishonesty, I don't spot lying. I literally anything like that is completely oblivious to and, you know, just kind of putting down my own rules. You know, like a lot of autistic people, I, I can struggle to process emotions and or identify them. I can, I need a lot more time to process things. I need to go slower. And I think in the past, when I was undiagnosed, those were things that really became a problem with dating. You know, I was unable to create that to also things that I needed and to be myself. And I think since diagnosis, it's still early days, but it has definitely changed the way I approach things. And I'm very slowly starting to unmask, starting to be myself, starting to ask for what I need. And, you know, being aware that, the, the areas that I'm vulnerable, I need to protect myself a little bit better. And that grey area when you're dating an autistic woman, I mean, it can be funny and it can lead to, you know, ridiculous situations where, I mean, I've accidentally dumped someone and not realised I dumped them for like four days. But for a woman, especially when you're dating, not knowing, nuance, not understanding, kind of a lot of the things that are entwined with dating, the relationships and the things that people say and don't mean, and the things that they don't mean, but that don't say either. That inability to misread, you know, it can lead to really dark places. And I know I've experienced that where dating can be quite scary place when you don't understand nuance. So yeah it's it's hopefully it's changing a little bit by a little bit. And I'm quite optimistic now. I think that I'm heading to a more healthy place where I can genuinely connect with people who care about me rather than, you know, perhaps more nefarious purposes.

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Robyn Steward Holly, what would your definition of love be?

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Holly Smale I think it's changing as I get older. I think I used to be kind of drawn to maybe more of the chaos, which I found really uncomfortable and really painful and exhausting. And that was definitely what sold me out. But I think because I've gotten older, for me, I'm looking for calm, I think, and something that I can rely on, I think because my wiring just it requires stability. It requires something that can be consistent. And I think for me, in not just romantic relationships, but also in, you know, friends and family, I really value those people who are consistent and there and who I can trust completely and who make me feel calm. So that's yeah, I think my definition of love has changed as I've gotten older.

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Jamie Knight That's really interesting. Part of why that's interesting was, we a few years ago, we drew a distinction between the folks who enabled my day to day safety from the kind of like support and care side. And then my friends, and we've always been very careful to try and not overlap those roles because one of the complicated things that can happen, at least in my experience, is I'll spend a lot of time with a friend, someone who I feel safe with. But they, you know, in a lot of situations they are, to some degree, looking out for me or looking after me a little bit. And when you know, when that thing we're doing, whether it's going to a museum or whatever finishes, they need to know that I'm safe. So having a care or support network to sort of like, for me to then, you know, go back to so that they don't feel at all responsible for my safety past the time that we're spending together. That's been one of the things this has in the past actually really damaged relationships. And then as we've got older and more mature, we've kind of started separating out those threads where needed for, for, for, for the situations that need it. And that's kind of helped to make the relationships with friends a lot stronger.

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Holly Smale That's so interesting, I think. Yeah. I mean, for me, it's taken a really long time. I mean, I'm 41 and I've it's been majority of my life spent basically alone, not just romantically, but just generally. And it's taken me really a lot of years to get to a point where I have people who don't mind when I unmask. Who don't mind me being kind of the real me. I think that the more I find those people who love me, the more I am myself, the safer I feel and the more able I feel able to kind of reciprocate and respond and feel a mutual relationship, which has been like a fascinating process. I think it's the same with romantic relationships for me. Like, I think that when you've spent so many years. Masking and it becomes part of your dating experience. A lot of the times when you're going on dates, especially when you're undiagnosed, you're not sure exactly what the difference between you and other people actually is, even though you know there is one. I think that sometimes that, that masking and that kind of inability to be authentic can actually damage the potential for real connection with people that you're trying to see romantically because you're so busy trying to be what you think that they need you to be or what you know, society has said that, you know, a romantic partner will be that you're not really kind of allowing yourself to experience it properly. So for me, that's been a real boundary, I think, in, in dating generally, and it's exhausting.

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Robyn Steward听Holly, please don't feel like you have to answer this, but I came out in June 2021 as queer. So I haven't been dating women that long. And I wasn't that bothered about dating men because I'm pretty gay. So I haven't gone on millions, millions of dates and I've probably now gone on more dates with women than I have men because I just was not interested. But I have had sometimes people say things and at the time it hurts not necessarily just about being autistic, but at the time it hurts. And then later on I can tell it is a funny anecdote and I just wondered if that resonated with you, if at the time, if people are saying those things, if it hurts and then you know you're able to rationalise it, I was just thinking that our listeners might be hearing that and thinking, Oh, it doesn't bother you, but it bothers me when people say things like that.

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Holly Smale First of all, congratulations. I just think it's so great that you're being you in the truest possible sense. Yeah, of course it hurts. And actually, you know, it hurt more when I didn't understand that I was autistic because I was just constantly thinking, Why? Why are you pointing out these weird things about me? Like, I know these weird things about me? Why do you have to point them out every 5 seconds? So there's been a lot of pain, and I think that's part of my kind of dating experience has been just these really kind of hurtful moments that are just devastating, you know, being told you're broken or, you know, and sometimes it would just be small things like, you know, why are you so formal all the time? Because, you know, when I'm in a relationship or when I'm dating, I am quite a formal person at that time. Formal with everyone. I'm formal with family members. You know, I'll get out of my sister's car and say thank you very much for spending time with me today. And my sister will be like, Shut up, you're such an idiot. Get out. But that's how I am. That's how I speak. And I think that in relationships and dating, people have a problem with that. They'll be like, why do you speak like a robot. Why are you so formal? Why do you sound like you're a Victorian heroine? And it can be incredibly hurtful. And you know, previously I've had situations where I've just desperately, desperately tried to be casual and breezy and use slang, whatever is. And that's just one example. You know, physically I'm very sensitive to touch. So a lot of times when I'm on dates and someone tries to flirt with me or touch my hand or whatever it is, I will flinch and move away. And that has been quite tricky as well, because obviously they then assume that I'm someone who doesn't like being touched and that can often end things pretty quickly. So yeah, it can be incredibly hurtful and yeah, funny later. I think that since diagnosis I'm again, it's a journey and I'm not all the way there, but I am finding it easier to own the things that I am and the things that I need. Yeah, I'm going to need longer to, to get physical because I just, I'm very sensitive like that. I'm going to need longer to process the emotions. I'm gonna need longer to work out how I feel or what I want. But yeah, it can be incredibly hurtful and people just have no issue or hesitation about pointing out the things about you that they find weird.

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Jamie Knight That's generally a sign that they're not great people.

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Holly Smale听Yeah.

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Jamie Knight People, people, people show us who they are by how they act. So I've got a few, a few thoughts and I really like how you're describing it. So two thoughts are colliding in my head. So I'll go for the second thought first. The way that people respond to me when I am how I am tells me a lot about the person, as we just said, right? Red flags and stuff. It took me a very long time to build the confidence, to not take criticism from people that I wouldn't take advice from. So, you know, if some if somebody said to me, oh, you have an autism diagnosis, therefore you're broken, well, my response is going to be, I'm not going to listen to you because you're clearly not informed. And that that ability that has come from, for me, confidence over the last ten years of building that cohesive identity has given me that confidence to reject those sort of lenses, which when I was younger, I wasn't able to do, you know, when I was younger, if, if somebody criticised something that I was doing, I would see it as, oh, you know, I need to improve my area so that I'm more acceptable to people so that I can get along better. One of the things I've learned is that, you know, things like I've got a four foot lion who goes almost everywhere with me, People think that's great, not a terrible thing. But when I was a kid, you know, people thought I was terrible. So that that confidence comes from settled identity. And it sounds to me, if I understand what you're saying, that your autism diagnosis has helped you give that settled sense of identity, that, that confidence in who you are and how you are and kind of a, for you at least an explanation of where it comes from. Does that make sense?

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Holly Smale 听Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that's why things have changed for me over the last couple of years, because I've only been diagnosed two years and obviously a lot of that wasn't spent dating because of the pandemic. So it's a new journey for me. But 100% the, the sort of self-knowledge that I've gained from that. That's why I'm so passionate about diagnosis, because, you know, it's not really so that you can labour yourself for other people. It's about you understanding who you are and yourself. And the shame just dropped away. All the things that I thought about myself and thought, you know, you are weirdly formal. You are weirdly like, you know, averse to touch, you all of our sense of self, all the things that, you know, I've really struggled with and thought, Why are you like this? Why can't you be more like other people? Yeah, it's just slowly dropped away. And I think that that does it does change how you able to be and how I'm able to date and connect and and feel a sense of identity. So yeah, I do think that things for me have changed a lot since understanding who I am.

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Jamie Knight 听I think Drew, the producer, has a question.

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Drew Hyndman听One of the reasons I got in touch with with you, Holly, for this episode was that you talked about on an episode of a different 大象传媒 podcast that I was working on about how your experience of relationships have been affected. And in that you talk about your job as an author and how you wrote a character, Harriet Manners in Geek Girl, and then the National Autistic Society got in touch with you and said, Do you realise you've written an autistic character? And that was sort of one of the many signs throughout your life that led to you getting a diagnosis. You're about to have an adult novel come out of romance novel. Have you written another autistic character in theory, on purpose or by accident? Again.

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Holly Smale I have yeah, so The Cassandra Complex and Cassie is the main character. And yeah, it's a romance. It's a romantic comedy, time travel with a lot of Greek mythology. And I did that very consciously. I had an idea for the book a long time ago, many, many years ago, but I hadn't been able to make sense of it because I hadn't realised I was autistic. So a lot of things I was struggling with were, especially when writing. I mean, when you're writing for teens, you can kind of hide behind it a little bit because it's fine writing a 15 year old who doesn't really have much experience of dating and love life and what to do with boys or, you know, that's you can hide behind that somewhat. And I think a little bit I did for a decade because the reality is that my experience as an autistic woman is that my, my love life, my dating life hasn't looked very normal. I'm 41 and I've never had a serious relationship. And so I think that I was very scared when I was planning on writing an adult book originally because I thought, How do I hide the fact that I am potentially, potentially trying to write a romance from the perspective of someone who doesn't know anything about it? And I think my diagnosis was the key that unlocked that because I suddenly went, Right, okay, so now I'm no longer ashamed. I understand myself better. I really want to write a character who is Neurodivergent, who is autistic and who struggles with relationships and struggles to connect and struggles to make those kind of meaningful romantic liaisons or whatever who desperately wants to. I mean, that's something that I know that it's different for all autistic people, and some people just aren't that fast. But I have always been a big romantic. So for me it was always been something I really, really wanted. And the shame that came from being in my late thirties, you know, early forties and knowing nothing about love, romance other than, you know, other than a series of failed two month flings was kind of really debilitating. And the freedom that came from going, you know, what I'm going to do is consciously this is going to be an autistic woman who, I'm just going to be honest, you know, why is it so hard? Why does she/I, because Cassie is essentially me, struggle so much with something that other people seem to find easy. Even if it's not that easy, they understand it on a level that I don't. And it was liberating being able to write this, this really lovely romance from a slightly different perspective and addressing topics and questions that perhaps we don't see that often in books. I certainly didn't feel like I was being represented particularly well in the books I was reading. So yeah, I consciously made it address that issue basically so that people can understand it a little bit better.

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Jamie Knight 听That sounds amazing. You know, write what you know and be the representation you wish you saw in the world. That's just really great. That's, you know, I'm not the target audience for this book, I don't think. But I'm already sitting here going, Oh, I might give that a read, that sounds fascinating, insightful, even into a perspective that we never hear about or very rarely hear from. So that is that's really cool.

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Holly Smale 听Thank you. And it's hard. I mean, it's really, really hard because there's so much in-built shame that comes from the taboo of being a grown woman who has no idea what they're doing. And like, not in a kind of rom com, you know, I got a bit rubbish at dating, but like girl can't get a relationship to go longer than eight weeks and you know that it's exposing. And I think that's something that I'm finding, you know, that, that I had to be quite brave in in terms of putting it on the page and then standing up and saying, Yeah, you know what? This is based on me. This is based on on something that I have historically been ashamed of. And I had to be ashamed of it any more because there are other people like me out there, and we shouldn't be ashamed of the fact that we struggle in things that other people perhaps don't struggle with.

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Jamie Knight I think we should get some tips from one of our listeners. Gareth has been married for 13 years, so he must be doing something right.

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Gareth 听Generally speaking, it'll come as no surprise that life presents challenges for everyone and good, strong and healthy relationships are tested to great lengths on occasions. Therefore, it has to be a case of you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. For a relationship to work. If someone demonstrates concern, compassion, love in its truist form, understanding and support embodies all the positive traits. All these, along with commonalities, are key ingredients for a good and healthy relationship and negate any minor faults of personal health. There's times, especially if you have children. Where there's a need to negotiate or even concede in this situation, or when making decisions. Even if there's instances when you think you write about something is in the scheme of things, both immediate and future situations go more smoothly. You can part your thoughts or beliefs about something and choose a future time to assert them.

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Jamie Knight 听I think one of the things he's picking up there is the difference between debate and finding consensus. There's a difference between I want thing X, you want thing Y. Let's argue about it until one of us wins and finding true consensus, let's both find something that is acceptable to us both. There's a bit of give and take, I think, where he refers to metaphorical back scratching that reminds me of reciprocality making sure that everybody gets value from it and that it's nourishing to everybody. And there's nobody giving and not getting anything back in return. And another kind of aspect that he has picked up there, finding people who see the value in you for what your value is. So what to one person might be a flaw to another person is a value. And that's kind of part of where, I guess if Neurodivergent people are having relationships with other neurodivergent people, we might have something in common that we like that we think is good. And then somebody externally who is not neurodivergent might go, Well, no, that's definitely a character flaw, you know. But one of the people I have a relationship with, we are incredibly protective of our spaces. You know, we you know, I have my relationship with my boyfriend. We didn't share a bed that was not going to happen because sensory bedroom space, I needed to find space. That was my space. In other relationships I've had, that's just fine. That's taken this assumption because they're also neurodivergent, you know, So that sort of assumptions about what is a feature and what is a flaw depends on the consensus between the two people involved. And I guess finding the right fit is about finding the right marrying of those things.

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Robyn Steward听Do you think, Holly, that if you're neurodivergent, your partners also need to be neurodivergent?

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Holly Smale 听No, not necessarily. I think that the other person needs to be and that they can and listen and understand. I mean, obviously, I'm talking from like no experience whatsoever, like listening to that kind of the the calling was really interesting because it's like listening to a foreign language. I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, what is what is this kind of strange, exotic, long term relationship thing that everyone's talking about? So I have no experience of that. But no, I don't think they need to be neurodivergent. But I do think that there's a lot of benefit to it. And, you know, I think that it's something I definitely wouldn't count out. And I think that, that potentially there's a shorthand between Neurodivergent people and if so, found that with friends as well. That can make communication easier and can make you more understanding of the way that you, you know, the way that you are basically. And so no, I don't think you need to be neurodivergent to have a neurodivergent partner, but I think it could work really well as well.

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Robyn Steward听Yeah, I would agree. I don't think it's a requirement and I think there's pluses and minuses for both. Both my parents are neurodivergent and are very happily married and they live in the countryside and they're really, really happy. But for myself, I would worry if I had a neurodivergent partner that I would kind of get into neurodivergent bubbles, which, you know, if you don't need to interact with neurotypical people is probably fine. But for me I feel like it's really important. I love people and I love being able to play music with different people and connect with people. And that is really important to me. But it requires a lot of practice of skills that maybe don't come naturally to me. And I wouldn't say I was masking, but I'm aware of needing to make effort and things that maybe other people find a bit easier than I do. And but I want to be able to hang out with people and to be, you know, a decent human being to those people and their values of what might be a decent human being might be slightly different to mine. And I, I know that everybody is equal. You know, everybody's, you know, like they should say what is important to them and it's just as well and is what's important to me. So I yeah, I mean, I don't have loads of experience, but I would say that you're taking Neurodivergent to also mean people with ADHD. I mean, I certainly in a way I have ADHD and I would be very. Yeah, I'd be very drawn probably to somebody else with ADHD because. Yeah. Like Holly said, there's a lot of shorthand that you already know kind of thing. So I think that that would be a good thing. But I suppose just because I've had the experience of growing up, my mum and dad, and seeing how I just feel like, I mean, they're really happy and that's great, but I can see that maybe they're in a bit of a bubble and it's it's great that they're happy, but I'm not sure that that's the kind of life I want. Obviously everyone is different and I might meet someone tomorrow who, you know, I don't feel like we're in a bubble and we're both quite keen to learn about other different people and to be around other people. I'm quite a social person and I crave physical affection and sex just the same as a lot of people. I. Yeah. I don't know about sharing my bed over a long period of time, but there is something nice about lying next to another human being who is snoring, you know, they're alive. And also by sharing your bed, you know that they are trusting you and you are trusting them. And there's something very nice about that.

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Holly Smale 听I agree with you up. And it's like that intimacy is something I love as well. And, you know, I think that the Neurodivergent bubble is definitely something to consider when you're getting into relationships. And also from the flipside, I guess it's, we're all different, right? Like all humans are different but also neurodivergent people are all different and there is like a compatibility thing between, you know, autistic people themselves, you know, because where you might be in a situation where actually, you know, you have a shorthand and you have this great communication because you're by thinking in the same kind of way, I guess there's ways that it could also be the flipside of that, where potentially you have similar traits that could war against each other. You know, that you might have too many similarities sometimes. So yeah, I think it's I think it's really important to not, I don't think it's one brushstroke for all paintings, if that makes sense. I think it is.

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Jamie Knight Yeah. Also, that's a great phrase, one brushstroke for all paintings. I like that.

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Robyn Steward听So Nicole has shared a tip with us and we think it's really important. What's the tip, Nicole?

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Nicole Relationships can be a complicated thing to navigate when you're neurodivergent. For advice to others, I would say don't just be with someone because they like you or to fit in, do what's right for you.

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Robyn Steward听Yeah, I think that's really important.

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Holly Smale It's really good advice. And I think that, you know, especially when you are neurodivergent person, especially if you are undiagnosed, that is part of the way you are. Just been kind of programmed throughout your entire life is, is that you're often quite a lonely person. And this is again, not everybody, you know, and for me particularly I was, I've spent a lot of my life alone. And you do seek that, that affection you do seek that kind of validation and that love and sometimes the need for that can override who is giving you this? What kind of person are they? You know, I've been in relationships where the only thing holding us together is how much they like me and not actually how much I like them. Because I almost forget to ask myself because, you know, I'm being given all of the things that I think I want, along with often very bad behaviour. But I have forgotten to ask myself if this is something that is right for me because they are so keen. So yeah, it's really, really super strong advice.

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Robyn Steward听So in a previous episode we talked autigender and I just wondered if that a concept that resonates with you Holly.

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Holly Smale 听Yeah, I think, I think when you are autistic, sometimes you can go along with what is expected because he spent I mean, I know that for me I felt a lot like an alien my entire life. And so I spent a lot of my life studying, you know, how do other people behave, how do they speak, you know, what kind of gestures do they make? It's like trying to learn a completely different language. And I think that part of that is that social expectations and gender expectations can often are not necessarily something that you innately understand. So you find yourself copying those as well. And yeah, I do definitely think that that has had an impact on my relationships, you know, with my sexuality for sure. It's something. So I'm picking I'm still early days.

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Drew Hyndman听You mentioned sexuality and sort of unpicking that. Has that started since your diagnosis and sort of just looking at yourself from a different lens now you've got that, or is that just an ongoing thing?

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Holly Smale No, it's something I'm unpicking, you know, because, you know, I used to when I was younger, I wasn't ready to have romantic or, you know, kind of little kind of mini sexual things for a really long time. And so when everyone else at school was having big crushes on boys, I had to fake it. I had to you know, if they came over, I would replace my posters of dinosaurs with posters of like Jason Priestley from 90210, who I know because I wanted everyone to think that I was normal. So I think that that kind of constant chasing what is normal versus who you are is something that takes a long time to unpick. And I think that sexuality can be part of that. And I know that that that is an experience that a lot of autistic people have, which is that, you know, they get they get quite late in life and then and then suddenly go, Actually I don't think I am attracted to men. I think I was told by everyone that I should be attracted to men. And actually I'm not or, you know, I for whatever it is, it takes a while to almost unmask your own sexuality, to understand what it is you want versus what the world has told you that you should want it, you know, heteronormativity and kind of gender roles and and all that kind of thing. So I do think that it is it's a long process that is fascinating and scary and interesting and fun. But it takes a while, I think.

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Robyn Steward听Yeah, definitely. I came out as queer. Yeah. Like I said, in June 2021. Yeah. I mean, it was a slow process for me, I suppose. I had a crush on a friend who is in a relationship with another very masculine woman, and I'd identify myself as a masculine woman. And I was like, Oh, I don't even know you can do that. Well, okay, I want to. Yeah, I wanted to be like them, I suppose, and just realised, oh, you know, not actually that, you know, like most of the stuff that's involved with sex with men, yeah I'm not bothered. But when it comes to women, I really am bothered and yeah. And know also like I've had a lot of trauma and I've had to work through it and yeah, I mean to be honest I tried all of the kind of like the normal stuff that you get through the NHS and none of it really worked. And then I read a book called The Body Keeps the School, and it's about how the body holds on to trauma. And then I started working with a sexualogical body worker who is somebody who works with people who've experienced trauma. I mean, I guess people could go to them for other reasons, but I think it's quite often trauma and you do things like learn what no feels like a new body. So you play this game where you have to ask. Each other to do something that's non-sexual. You know, like, can you make me a cup of tea or can you run to the shop and buy a pint of milk or something? And your answer is going to be no. Like, the rule of the game is you have to say no. So you have to feel the no in your body, which sounds weird, but you can learn to do it. You have to find a reason like, Oh, it's too cold or Oh, you should be able to do it. Or you don't have to tell the person a reason, but you have to go through the process of finding the reason and feeling the no in your body. And then that helps you in situations where you'd be in a situation sexually where you, you can say no and you feel the no in your body. So that's kind of what a psychological body worker does. And there's a lot of other things. I'm kind of simplifying it, but that was one of the exercises I found helpful. And then obviously the next stage of that exercise would be to talk about sexual acts. And still the answer's always no. And then after that, then you go on to saying yes, although you're not actually going to do those things, but saying yes to the things you would consent to and no to the things you wouldn't, so that you get a really good sense of what it feels like in your body. And I also worked with a trauma informed massage therapist, and I found that both of those things have like really, really helped.

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Holly Smale 听It's such an interesting thing actually because although I haven't read that book, and obviously will now get it. It's something I've been working on in therapy for quite a few years because I know we mentioned earlier about, you know, that for me personally, I can, I can struggle to identify emotion and I often confuse excitement and anxiety with fear, with lust, with repulsion, with like, I have no idea what's going on. And so one of the things that I have also worked on is, you know, what is it? Is there a part of me that just doesn't want to do this but is unable to identify that I don't want to do this and trying to pinpoint, you know, what that feels like in my body, you know, where is it? What kind of sensation does it have? Because like you and I'm sure a lot of autistic people, I have a lot of trauma, both psychological but also physical in my past. And, you know, it can lead to a very complex history and a very complex and romantic history where you find yourself doing things you don't want to do because you can't identify the difference between a trauma response to a happy response to just a straight out fear. So it's something that I've had to work on as well, because when you can't acknowledge or identify emotions very easily, it can be very distressing and you end up in places doing things that you just have just no interest in and it can become more traumatising. It's like a never ending circle. So yeah, I totally identify with that.

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Jamie Knight Thanks so much for joining us today, Holly. Where can listeners find out more about you or your books?

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Holly Smale Well I generally hang out on Twitter quite a lot, so you can come over there and say, Hi, I'm @holsmale and on Instagram as well. So that's probably the best places to go.

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Jamie Knight听Do you have any top tips for navigating relationships as an autistic person?

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Holly Smale 听Yeah, I think for me, the biggest takeaway has been really trying to listen to what it is you need and want, and it may not be what the other person needs and wants, but to go at your own pace. And if you need extra time, take extra time. If you need to listen more carefully to the emotions that are going on and try and identify them, you know, do what you need to do instead of trying to follow a relationship pattern. It's essentially been set up by a neurotypical world.

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Jamie Knight [00:32:52] Couldn't put it better myself.

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Robyn Steward听And that's a wrap or a panini or sandwich on this episode and this series of 1800 seconds on autism. We don't promise you'll find love from our advice, but we hope you had fun listening, anyway.

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Drew Hyndman听One thing we have loved is making this series. It was great chatting with Chloe Hayden.

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Chloe Hayden 听I was actually doing a rodeo in like this teeny tiny town called Bonnie Doon in Australia, and I called up my agent. It was like, I'm coming home now. I'm sending this audition off. And there's actually videos of me like riding my horse in this rodeo, like mouthing the script. Like, just like I'm like, I have to learn this.

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Jamie Knight 听That obsession!

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Chloe Hayden 听Literally! I'm like, I literally I was in my swag every night. Like learning the script there's videos of me on my horse, repeating it.

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Drew Hyndman听Learning new things with Chris Packham.

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Chris Packham You know, neurological diversity in humans has proved to be advantageous. There have been you know, there have been times, of course, where people who think differently and have different attributes due to the way that they think have prospered and as a response, our species has also prospered. So yeah, I think it has to be there. Is my dog autistic? I won't be able to tell you that. Is there? You know, the fact that I have two dogs and they express completely different personalities and that impacts significantly on how they interact with their world suggests to me that that that there are clearly neurological differences in my two dogs.听

Drew Hyndman听And of course, hearing from you listeners.

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Listener 听Unfortunately, you can't really pick what your intense interest is going to be about. So sadly, all of the intense interest I've had around bands and solo artists haven't been musicians that you would probably consider cool. So since the start of lockdown, all I really read about, spoke about and listened to for a very long time has been the Bee Gees.

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Jamie Knight 听And we hope you enjoyed the rest of the series. It's been great. We have had a great time and we'd love hearing from you, our listeners, in the future.

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Robyn Steward听You can still email us at stim@bbc.co.uk. Stim is spelled S.T.I.M. We don't always reply, but the team do always read them.

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Jamie Knight 听And I think 大象传媒 sounds will complain if I don't mention it. You might have heard me say this quite a lot over the last six episodes, but of course all the rest of our episodes can be found on 大象传媒 sounds or wherever you get your podcast from.

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Robyn Steward 听So from me, Robyn Steward.

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Jamie Knight 听And me, Jamie Knight.

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Jamie Knight and Robyn Steward Bye!