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21st April 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 49

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

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NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Have you been doing anything exciting this week?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, at the weekend I did do a ten-mile walk with 80 other people.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh hello. Ten miles?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Like that GP from Scotland who got in a car during her ultra-marathon and then took her trophy for third, I got in a car for a couple of miles and took all the praise at the end.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You got in a minibus halfway through?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, just for a little bit, like a couple of kilometres, because it was a big hill. But it was also much, much, much more difficult than we were anticipating. It was rocks and streams and squishy grass, and literally spent hours being told, ‘Move your foot forward. No, your left one. Okay, can you hear this stone? Try and stand on that one. Right, use your cane to find the next stone. Right, try that one’.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, did you have to be told? Because obviously I’ve seen you, you can walk pretty well.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. Yeah, no…

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Much better than I can. But was it because the ground was so rough?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was a really, really old road, clearly hundreds of years old. There were so many different rocks to navigate, and then between the rocks there were pools of water, so if I didn’t manage the steppingstone I’d be in the water.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Kind of Vicar of Dibley style.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Kind of yeah. But my brother and sister with me; we’ve walked many a walk before, done many a thing, and they’ve guided me or described things lots and lots and lots. And we haven’t seen each other very much, you know there’s kids and partners and we live in different countries, so it was actually a really amazing way to connect with them.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve no concept of how long it would take to walk ten miles really.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, we started at half past ten. The main group got in at quarter past, half two. I got in at quarter to four, despite being in a car.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s Access All. I’m Nikki Fox and I’m in London.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And 400 miles away in Edinburgh I’m Emma Tracey.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This week a huge fashion mag goes hard on disability. We speak to its stunner of a cover star, Sinéad Burke.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Have you ever heard of eco-ableism?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Nah-nah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, as another big climate activist event takes place in London we discuss where the effort needs to be going so that disabled people aren’t dangerously left out.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Subscribe to Access All on ´óÏó´«Ã½ Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I’m very excited because we are joined today in the studio by Sinéad Burke. She is a CEO, she’s an activist, and now she’s a Vogue cover star for the second time. Well, the cover drops today, doesn’t it?

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it’s just dropped. I haven’t checked my phone, which is probably a great thing; let’s not look at that for the rest of the day. But no, I am incredibly proud of it and to be here. And actually it feels really fitting that with everything this issue is about that one of the first conversations that I get to have about it is with disabled women. So, thank you for having me.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tell me, Sinéad Burke, what are you wearing?

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I’m going to do this in the guise of a visual description seeing as we are all in this room and outside of it into accessibility. So, I’m a white cisgender woman. I identify as queer and physically disabled. I’m a little person. I have brown hair that is kind of just past my ear. It’s almost a bob butÌý hopefully slightly chic. I am wearing a silk shirt that is black with polka dots, and purple and blue flowers to match the branding of the show. And then I am wearing a navy Dior bell skirt and black pointed toed Ferragamo shoes.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I really hope that that description does justice to how you look, because you look beautiful.

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, thank you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I find hair descriptions interesting because I know what very, very few people’s hairstyles feel like. But I do kind of know a bob. But that was a beautiful elegant description and it sounds like you’re wearing fabulous clothes.

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And Emma, one day if you’re ever visiting a farm and there’s a bale of hay feel that and know that that is my hair.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Stop it.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s true.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve felt your hair already.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve been bleaching since the age of ten.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And it’s not like a hedge.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, as we’ve mentioned, Sinéad, this is not the first time that you’ve been on the Vogue cover. What is different about this edition?

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, I got to be on the cover of British Vogue in 2019 as part of the Forces for Change issue, which was guest edited by the Duchess of Sussex, Megan Markle. And between herself and Edward Enninful, the editor-in-chief of British Vogue, they put together this incredible litany of women. There was Jameela Jamil, Jacinda Arderne, Ramla Ali, Francesca Hayward. I think Christie Turlington was on the cover.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wowzers.

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And at the time I was the first little person to be on the cover of any Vogue issue ever. And I think as somebody who grew up seeing and feeling that fashion was important, depending on however you saw it, it felt like this incredible moment.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Does it blow your mind? Because just hearing you say that you were the first little person to be on the cover, do you not just feel like woo, every time you wake up?

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think a couple of things right. And Emma will know this because she herself is Irish. So, I think being part of a big Irish family also there’s a great level of humility required, needed poured upon you. So, the idea that I’m the first little person to be on the cover of Vogue doesn’t really sit well among my siblings. And my mother’s like, ‘Yeah, grand, just fill the dishwasher and thanks very much’. Dead right. But I think for me I guess it made me ask the question: why am I the first little person to be on the cover of Vogue in 2019? My success is the gift of timing. But also now that I have made it to that moment what can I do about it? And I think for me one of the most radical transformations was the pandemic and COVID-19. I had been part of the luxury fashion industry, advocating for change. I came home to Ireland to be based in Ireland for almost three years. Through COVID-19 we all had a closer proximity to disability, particularly those who previously identified as non-disabled. And yet here in the UK six out of ten people who died of COVID-19 were disabled. In England there were no sign language interpreters at any of the press conferences. And it really made me look at myself and ask questions such as: did the fashion industry become more accessible or did it become more accessible for me?

So, I set up a consultancy in October 2020 from my bedroom, and it still works from my bedroom. It’s called Tilting the Lens. And we are now five people across Europe in terms of where we live, and the idea of it was to create this theory of change rooted in education, advocacy and design, where we could move people either from awareness to action if their baseline was zero, or move people from compliance to creativity; not just thinking about this as a legislative mandate and a minimum, but thinking about this as a real innovation opportunity.

And 12 months ago I got an email from Vogue which said, hey Sinéad, are you free for a chat this week? Would love to pick your brain. Which is always an email that you know your life is about to change the minute you answer it. So, set up a call and Edward said, ‘Listen, we’re really interested in doing a disability focused issue. We don’t know how to do it. We don’t know where to start. Will you come on as consulting editor?’ And not only did they take me on, but my entire disability-led, disability-majority team. And I’ll never forget sitting in Vogue House with Emma and Michael, who I work with, and all of the Vogue team and us sitting there talking about how do we meaningfully make a photoshoot accessible. The first thing we have to do is we have to ask better questions. We surveyed every studio in London to learn what level of accessibility existed. We then ensured the talent was set up for success, to be able to thrive rather than just meaningfully or just minimally participate. There was a quiet room on set, everybody could access lunch or teas or coffees, there were changing rooms that ensured dignity and access. And that’s just a part of it.

So, for me I think what makes this issue different is the way in which we think about visibility and representation; moving from something that is solely based on image, solely based on being able to see on the cover, to being in the room where decisions are made, and consulting on those decisions so that it’s not a moment, it is a movement, and that it is a red thread for everything that British Vogue will do from now on.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sinéad, how is this issue of Vogue particularly accessible to everyone?

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, in terms of the issue for the first time ever Vogue is going to be available in physical and digital braille. It’s also going to be available as an audio version.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý First time ever?

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s also going to be available as an audio version, so it’s going to be available in physical and digital braille from 5th May. And it’s also going to be available every issue for the next months at least in braille. So, we consulted with deaf, blind people, including the wonderful Haben Girma, asked around in terms of her access points. But working with the RNIB to make this a physical reality. Every digital image is going to have alt text, it’s going to be shared online with alt text, the video content has audio descriptions. So, for me it’s those principles of accessibility, it’s the ways in which hearts, minds and skills have been shaped by this issue that I hope will then become muscle memory for everything that continues.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then what about the people who read this issue and who read the essays by disabled people, the interviews, what are you hoping they’ll get from it?

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The amazing Frances Ryan interviews Selma Blair. Lottie Jackson interviews Ellie Goldstein. I had the great privilege of interviewing Aaron Rose Philip in New York. And that idea of I think for a non-disabled audience witnessing a conversation between disabled women is incredibly important. And that this isn’t just about people who are on the cover in the images; this is about people who are behind the scenes. In Edward’s editor’s letter he talks about himself being disabled, language that he hasn’t often felt confident or powerful to reclaim, and being able to talk about himself and his own disabilities, realising that visibility and representation yes, is about imagery, but it’s about boardrooms, it’s around the finance department, it’s in HR. Disabled people need to be in every room.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. And for people who don’t know, tell us a bit about your other cover stars.

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We have five. So, I am on one, which is absolutely absurd and ridiculous but incredible. So, I am wearing a white t-length Alexander McQueen dress with the most incredible belt. The next issue is with Justina Miles who’s on the cover. So, people may or may not be familiar with Justina. Justina is a black deaf woman. She’s also an ASL performer, and she went viral when she performed Rihanna’s Superbowl performance.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah, yes, yes, yes.

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then we have Selma Blair, who many of us may know from Legally Blonde, Cruel Intentions or, if you’ve better taste than me, probably something much more academic. But Selma has been over the past five years very vocal about her MS diagnosis and how that has been impacting her life. And I think what’s really interesting is Selma’s career began in fashion, she modelled for Chanel, she was a brand ambassador for multiple companies, and now to see her proudly as a disabled woman and take up that space. Then there’s Ellie Goldstein who’s an amazing British model with Down’s Syndrome, who is the funniest and warmest person, and who is just at the beginning of her career. I think she’s on a billboard in Leicester Square or Piccadilly Circus at the moment.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Brilliant.

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then lastly is Aaron Rose Philip, and she describes herself as a black, trans, disabled woman. She has cerebral palsy. Her power wheelchair is really obvious in this photograph in a very powerful way.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I like that.

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And she’s wearing the most beautiful black silk dress that cascades down. Aaron has been advocating for systemic change in the fashion industry.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sinéad, I was going through your Instagram, as you do, and in January you talked about your thoughts for the New Year. You talked about behavioural stretches, which is something we’ve started to talk about a lot in the office now.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý For people that don’t know, exactly what is a behavioural stretch?

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, I share this definition with absolutely no qualification, but in the sense of how I have heard it and how it’s been described for me. So, the idea of it is kind of when you come out of your comfort zone in terms of the behaviours that are often your norm or what you are like as a person kind of day to day. So, in terms of my example when I was in Disneyland the behavioural stretch for me was doing something that I usually don’t like, or try to step away from, which is like scary rides with a gravity drop. So, that is one behavioural stretch. But it’s expanding yourself in terms of your day-to-day behaviours.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Getting out of your comfort zone.

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Exactly. Feeling a little bit uncomfortable. The language of behavioural stretches was new to me until I was in Disneyworld. So, to give you the context – and please know that there’s no humility in the next sentence – NASA contacted Tilted the Lens and asked…

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh!

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know, see…asked us if we would go to the Kennedy Space Centre in Florida to do training. And when in Florida – there’s probably lots of lovely things that one can do in Florida that they shouldn’t – but we went to Disneyland. And there are lots of height restriction in the rides in Disneyland, which usually I’m perfectly fine with because I’m not a thrill seeker. And Michael, my colleague, is quite tall and he said, ‘Let’s go on this ride’ that I was able to go on. And I said, ‘Gravity drops, not really for me’. And he was like, ‘Let’s go!’ And if it wasn’t for two of us I definitely wouldn’t. And I just remember going up the climb to that drop and he was like, ‘This is a behavioural stretch’ and I was like, ‘Sure!’.

But I think the behavioural stretch is very personal. I think it’s about making friends again, and I mean that really sincerely. I am very lucky to be surrounded by great people. I became and continuously become so comfortable in what I know and who I know. The friends that I haven’t seen for some time, or even making new friends at 32 feels really scary or weird. Like, hi, please like me, but also I’m in therapy so don’t like me because I’m not a people pleaser anymore. And personally some of those behavioural stretches I think as a disabled woman I’m also trying to move out of home, trying to move out of my family home, I’m trying to get a place of my own; I’m trying to learn how to cook and fill the dishwasher appropriately. So, those are big personal stretches. And I think the behaviourally stretch that I’m learning professional, my background is in education, I’m a teacher by trade, the idea that I would be CEO of a company and have to manage and hopefully excel in profit and loss accounts, whilst also managing a team, whilst also working with this international base of clients and having to constantly be learning and trying to support people, while at the same time delivering and creating change, is a constant stretch. One that I am revelling in, but it’s hard, and sometimes it feels lonely.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My mouth has been open a lot during this interview. But you are so incredible. I mean, your life has been one big behavioural stretch.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was just going to agree and say that there are accessibility challenges on moving out of home.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And in some ways home is the most accessible place because you were born into it and they make it like that. In the other sense my mum was always great at leaving the hoover in the middle of the hallway. It’s the most accessible but it’s also where the expectations of you are highest as well.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Totally. If I get to buy a house I’ll probably one house in my entire life and I’ll need to live in it forever. I don’t know the way in which my body is going to age and change. I find stairs difficult right now. Can you imagine what it’s going to be like in ten, 20, post-menopause? We’ll figure that out. But yes, I’m really hoping that you’ll all come round for some sort of very basic pasta dish some time.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sinéad, are you kidding me? Is that an actual invite?

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because I will hold you to this.

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m not going to tell you my address on air.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I literally live down the road from you; I will be there.

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Listen, you’re about 20 minutes away. I can’t wait.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I will drive there overnight if I have to, whatever.

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ireland is a different country, so you will need a boat or a plane, just to be clear. Post-Brexit you’ll also need a passport.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I just think, what would the young Sinéad make of all of this?

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I feel incredibly proud. But even more I feel really energised that okay, what’s next? Okay, so now we’ve done these extra four things what’s the next four? Because what was impossible will soon be possible.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it’s great that you are energised because I’m always the one who pitches in on Access All and goes, but it’s so tiring, trying to make change is so tiring. This very – I was going to say very special issue of Vogue, I don’t think I should say that though, should I?

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Don’t use the word special.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, well exactly.

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Unique.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This unique issue of Vogue is on newsstands from 25th April. Sinéad Burke, thank you so much for coming in. We love you.

SINEAD-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much for having me.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This weekend up to 30,000 people are expected to gather in London for Extinction Rebellion’s The Big One. Now, that’s a four-day event with speakers and workshops, all to raise awareness of the climate crisis. Disability Rights UK will be at the heart of the event giving speeches about how disabled people are impacted by climate change and what governments need to do. Now, today we are joined by Dan White, friend of the podcast. Dan is from Disability Rights UK and is very much the person delivering the speech and driving this. Hello Dan. How are you?

DAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m very well. and thanks again for having me on.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re also joined by Sam Little. Hello Sam.

SAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi Nikki.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You are a guru when it comes to all things sustainability, so we’re going to come and chat to you in a minute. But I’m going to start with you, Dan. What are you going to be saying at this weekend’s event?

DAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What I’m basically going to be doing is outlining what the actual effects are of climate change upon the disabled community, and what the responses and policies that we’ve put in place should be to actually make sure disabled people are fully engaged in planning and implementing future changes for the planet basically. I mean, disabled people will be the hardest hit community by a changing climate, that is without doubt, and so far we are being excluded from these conversations which include design and implementation. Now, that is just not morally correct when you consider there are one billion disabled people across the planet.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And just give us an idea how disabled people are impacted by climate change?

DAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The first thing really is disaster planning. I mean, disabled people are frequently unable to evacuate their homes and reach safety due to extreme weather or a climate catastrophe, leading to loss of lives. Disabled people are twice as likely as any other group, sadly, to die in natural disasters. Support networks are not able to reach us. Shelters are usually inaccessible. Early warning systems to do not alert disabled people due to communications being inaccessible. COVID was a pandemic, it was a nightmare for the community; two out of three victims of COVID had a disability. But, as we all know, as the planet heats up and people move from arid terrible places to cooler places, and so does the animal population, there will be a more jump of infections from species to species, causing further pandemics, which unfortunately disabled people will be more susceptible to.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve heard this term, Dan, eco-ableism being chucked around. What does that actually mean?

DAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It just basically means what it says really: we’re already affected by a society and a world that we can’t adapt to, so what’s it going to be like in the future if everyone continues to be guilty of eco-ableism and the future is built to be green but not including our needs.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, Emma, I know you’ve been looking into this too. What have you found out?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý In 2018 there was a heatwave in Canada where 61 people died, but a quarter of those had schizophrenia. The antipsychotic medication made these patients less tolerant to heat, but there hadn’t been enough communication to warn people. In 2019 California was hit with a series of outages as power companies shut down power stations to stop wildfires spreading. And of course we know that the wildfires in California are becoming more frequent. But when those outages happened people who used ventilators and other equipment had to shut it down; they maybe didn’t have it charged up fully because it wasn’t communicated to them properly that those power outages were going to happen. One man even lost his life, that we know of, because he didn’t have power to his ventilator and he couldn’t breathe.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How is the UK doing when it comes to planning with disabled people specifically in mind?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s not at the top of the charts, let’s say, Nikki. So, a big report came out a few months ago by Canadian professor Sébastien Jodoin, and he is a friend of the show, he’s got MS, and he’s with McGill University. His report looked at the climate pledges made by countries in the 2015 Paris Agreement, and that required reference to disabled people. But only 35 of the 192 countries involved in the Agreement even mentioned it. And the UK didn’t mention it at all.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay.

DAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What I’m hoping is, because Disability Rights UK have built up this global coalition of disabled climate change activists, is to kick open these doors and talk to people. We’ve already delivered our statement to COP to say we need to be in the room with you, not in a side room discussing this. Because even the UN have acknowledged that people with disabilities are at increased risk of the adverse effects of climate change, including threats to health, food security, water, sanitation and livelihood. So, we need to be in the room. We need to representing ourselves, putting forward these ideas and these results. There’s no point people talking about it for us; we need to be there with lived experience saying, this is what the future needs to look like.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know also that disabled people can struggle to be as environmentally friendly as they might want to be, which is a brilliant moment to bring in Sam Little.

SAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because Sam, you’ve got some ideas, haven’t you, on what disabled people can do right now? And I should mention to the listeners, if you don’t mind, you’ve got visual and hearing impairments yourself, don’t you, Sam?

SAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, I’ve got Usher Syndrome type 2, so I wear a hearing aid and I used a guide dog called Ziggy.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah, Ziggy as in Stardust?

SAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. I want to take credit for the name but I can’t, but it’s very cool.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s such a good name. Now, having your impairments does it stop you from living a sustainable life, Sam?

SAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Definitely. When I first started getting really passionate about this topic through things like beach clean-ups or Plastic Free July campaign, I just found it really, really difficult to get involved. With Plastic Free July one of the biggest things is going to a refill shop, but my closest refill shop was a 25-minute train journey away. So, trying to lug loads of glass jars while you’ve got a guide dog in one hand and you need to keep your other hand free. And then when you get there they tend to have quite traditional ways of weighing everything out. So, I’m just like there’s no chance I’m able to do this.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is not for me.

SAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, it’s not for me. So, it has been very challenging over the years to be as sustainable as I want to be.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I want to talk about the beach clean-up, because don’t you use those long things with little grabbers at the end?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, I’ve got one of those.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’ve got one of those. What’s yours for though?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve got a grabber. I use it for pinching people’s bum-bums, and for picking up my pants.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý From the floor.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý From the floor.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, picking up stuff from the floor when you can’t see with one of those long things, finding the rubbish on the beach, it sounds like a nightmare. Did you actually ever do one?

SAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, so I made a video about it for The Social when I was a contributor for them, and my husband was my litter grabber and I had to walk with him. And I was like, ‘Is that something?’ and he was like ‘No Sam, that’s a shell, we’ve got to leave that here’. And I was like, ‘Oh what about that?’ But I just really wanted to be a part of it. And it was like how can I participate in it? It’s why I’ve never felt that I could take part in protests or big climate discussions because it’s like, where do I fit here, I don’t feel I can be part of that big discussion.

But I’m really glad I went along because it made me realise how bad the situation is on the coastline and in our seas, all this pollution and rubbish. So, then it was like, well how can I influence this, what can I do within my capacity. So, I started to look into smaller things that I could do. At the time I wore hearing aids with single-use batteries so I just make sure I collected them all and took them to be recycled. A really simple thing to do. I thought about the different service providers I was using, so banks, energy providers, asked them questions, what are you doing to be green, are there better companies to use. And I can do that all from my phone. So, that started to give me the confidence to think what can I do. It might feel like a lot of action but it was very empowering for me.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And it’s all relative: you can only do what you can do. I get emails from disabled people saying, I really want to be greener, but I have a 15-minute visit from the support worker and there’s just enough time to heat up a microwavable meal and have a bottle of water, or use a plastic straw which I need to keep going, and the old cardboard ones they keep disintegrating. Just people are quite frustrated because they feel like they can’t participate. I guess that’s the whole point, isn’t it? What Dan’s saying is disabled people aren’t participating in the wider conversation, but then also disabled people struggle to participate in actually making better decisions to become greener because it’s just hard.

SAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s trying to balance what you can’t and can control and have influence over.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Amazing. Thank you so much both of you. Thank you Sam. Thank you Dan.

DAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

SAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bye.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, that is Access All for another week. Emma and I will be back next week for pretty much more the same. Excitement obviously.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely. In the meantime please get in touch with us via Twitter, we are @´óÏó´«Ã½AccessAll. You can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk, or drop us a voice note or text message to the WhatsApp on 0330 123 9480.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Until next week, lovely listeners, bye.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bye.

[Trailer for Eurovisioncast]

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, United Kingdom. This is Eurovisioncast.

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Who’s going to win Eurovision?

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý 12 points go to: [cheering] Ukraine!

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Being able to make the Ukrainian people and the rest of Europe really proud.

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Eurovisioncast.

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The ultimate backstage pass to Eurovision 2023 in Liverpool.

MANS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Join Nina, Daniel, Ngunan, and me MÃ¥ns.

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý As we bring you all of the news, views and gossip…

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý From the greatest show on Earth.

MAE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hey guys, I’m Mae Muller, please come and join our Eurovision family.

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh wow.

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Eurovisioncast.

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Listen on ´óÏó´«Ã½ Sounds.

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