大象传媒

听

21st August 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 67

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

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听

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We are in Dynamic Earth, which is quite a popular tourist attraction in Edinburgh.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 very beautiful.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And 大象传媒 at the Edinburgh Festival鈥檚 venue is here. And we are going into that venue, onto the stage to talk to people.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes. And may I say, Emma, your hair looks divine.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh thank you. What about you?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I always look a little bit overdone, do you know what I mean?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, does that mean are you usually better dressed than me?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 No, no, I just usually overdress, too much make-up and that kind of stuff.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I did see your make-up box last night. You even let me touch it.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, it鈥檚 huge. And I鈥檝e got a nice little outfit on, it鈥檚 like a champagne coloured dress and a little blazer.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Lovely.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 For the professionalism.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I am very, very excited. We鈥檝e just met all the guests.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, they鈥檙e lovely, aren鈥檛 they?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. we鈥檝e got Sam, we鈥檝e got Juliette and we鈥檝e got Joe. And we鈥檝e introduced ourselves, had some silly jokes with them.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I think as I just left the green room to come and find you I heard Juliette say, 鈥楧oes anyone in here mind boobs? Anyone mind seeing boobs?鈥� [Emma laughs] because she was getting changed. Brilliant.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I thought there was a screened off area we could have sent her to.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 She doesn鈥檛 mind.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 No, she鈥檚 right.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Boobs are boobs.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 She鈥檚 right, absolutely, absolutely.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Shall we do this, Ems?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Let鈥檚 go.

PRESENTER-听 Please welcome to the stage Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music. [Applause and cheers]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello everyone. This is our very first live Access All for the 大象传媒. It鈥檚 the disability and mental health podcast. This knackered old disabled bird on the mobility scooter with far too make-up is me, Nikki Fox.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And I鈥檓 Emma Tracey, and we are live in front of our audience at 大象传媒 at the Edinburgh Festival. And we have some fantastic guests for you tonight.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. But first a quick poll, lovely audience, I hope you don鈥檛 mind me asking this but I am very nosey:

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 She is.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Is anyone disabled in the audience?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Hands up.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Ah, hands up, hands up.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 But actually hands up doesn鈥檛 quite meet with my access needs, Nikki [laughter]. We can鈥檛 do hands up.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檇 forgotten about that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, I think that people if you鈥檙e disabled you should hum like this [hums]. So, go on, give us a hum.

AUDIENCE-听听听 [Hums].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 See now, I was not sold on this idea, but that was actually quite nice.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Can we get a non-disabled hum to see if it sounds different to a disabled hum? Go on then.

AUDIENCE-听听听 [Louder humming].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Ooh, now that is different [laughter].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 deeper and ooh.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Ooh, that鈥檚 very serious. That鈥檚 a serious hum [laughter].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I think, I鈥檓 going to be honest, the disabled hum was a lot better [laughter].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 It was a lot more tuneful.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Right, let鈥檚 get on with it. It鈥檚 a goodie.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay, get your applause going [applause and cheers] we鈥檙e going to introduce the guests. First, comedian Joe Wells.听 听

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 And we have actor, Sam Brewer [applause and cheers].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And comedian Juliette Burton [applause and cheers].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Honestly, we鈥檝e been saying this backstage, but you all look phenomenal. You鈥檝e all got your individual style. I so want those puffy sleeves, Juliette.

JULIETTE-听听听听听 Thanks. One of the production team said that I鈥檓 channelling Little Mermaid vibes. I wasn鈥檛 aware of it until it was pointed out, and now I feel very seen.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Good.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Some say she鈥檚 disabled, you know. Just saying.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 What, the Little Mermaid? Oh, we had this discussion, didn鈥檛 we?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 See, I bring everything round to disability; that鈥檚 the other thing I do.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I wasn鈥檛 buying it. Literally everything. And I was very taken by Joe Wells鈥� cardigan.

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 lovely, isn鈥檛 it?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, a cardigan.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I love it.

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 This is great for an audio podcast, isn鈥檛 it? [laughter]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Is it like one of those bobbly ones?

JULIETTE-听听听听听 It鈥檚 very tactile.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Is it? Can I feel it? No, I won鈥檛, if you鈥檙e not comfortable that鈥檚 fine.

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You can feel my cardigan [laughter].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Can I feel your cardigan?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It now feels weird.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Can I touch it, Joe?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You can touch my cardigan, yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, it鈥檚 lovely and soft. And it鈥檚 got pockets as well, hasn鈥檛 it?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 No one ever wants to touch me!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, love it. It鈥檚 gorgeous. That is soothing.

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It takes days to dry when you wash it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I bet it does. And I bet you have to put it on a special wash as well, do you?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I handwash it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Ah!

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 going to start off, most important question really, who鈥檚 got the best show?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Why don鈥檛 we start with Sam? Ten seconds, have you got the best show?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, look, there鈥檚 a lot of shows, and I really believe that everybody brings their own spirit to any kind of festival.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Time up, sorry.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Juliette, have you got the best show?

JULIETTE-听听听听听 I couldn鈥檛 possibly comment. I鈥檝e never actually watched my show and I鈥檝e not seen these guys yet.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e so kind.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 So good. Joe?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, art is subjective, but I do have the best show, yes.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Amazing. We always had to have one cocky one, didn鈥檛 we? [laughter] I love that. Now, Joe, you鈥檙e here with your latest standup show, Kind of the Autistics. It鈥檚 an amazing name. And you鈥檙e at the Banshee Labyrinth, aren鈥檛 you?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 The title really makes me laugh, and I came up with it [laughter].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 so good.

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I thought someone would stop me calling it King of the Autistics because it鈥檚 such an arrogant title, but my agent went, 鈥極h yeah, let鈥檚 do that鈥�. And now it鈥檚 called King of the Autistics, yeah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I love it. Now, you鈥檙e a standup, you are a writer, a speaker and a podcaster. And when I was reading about you, because I have been stalking you all, my notes said, Joe is autistic and his routine about his non-autistic brother went viral in 2022, racking up a staggering 4.5 million views on social media platforms. And then it said, according to Joe [laughter]. So, I鈥檓 wondering how many views did you actually get then, Joe?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, yeah, 4.5 million. But a lot of the people who follow me online are other autistic people, so 4.5 million views could just be four of us that really liked it [laughter].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 And I鈥檓 going to put this to you as well, Joe Wells, that you do not have a non-autistic brother, do you, hunk?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 This is like some sort of sting operation.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I know. It鈥檚 not a nice easy-breezy interview this, Joe Wells. No, no, no.

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No. I鈥檝e got a non-autistic sister. But I wanted comedy to challenge stereotypes, and I wanted to challenge the stereotype that it鈥檚 only women who can be not autistic. There are lots of non-autistic men, but it often goes undiagnosed in men. So, that鈥檚 why I made it a brother rather than a sister.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And you鈥檙e right, a lot of the people who are diagnosed autistic have been men over the years, so that鈥檚 what you鈥檙e getting at, isn鈥檛 it?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 How has your Edinburgh Festival been so far?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 been good. I鈥檓 happy to be here. But I鈥檓 not doing loads of extra shows. I鈥檓 just trying to look after myself a bit.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 nice.

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, my flat is disgusting [laughter]. There鈥檚 something libelous written, graffitied on outside. I was about to say what鈥檚 graffitied outside my flat but I don鈥檛 think I can make that accusation on the 大象传媒. And my bathroom light the switch isn鈥檛 in my bathroom, the switch is in next door鈥檚 bathroom, so I can only go to the toilet when next door are going to the toilet [laughter].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Amazing.

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, that鈥檚 stressful. But otherwise I鈥檓 having a lovely Fringe.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Can you not go to the toilet in the dark? It鈥檚 pretty easy actually [laughter and applause].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e amazing, Emma. You could teach him.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I can teach鈥�well. That鈥檚 way above my pay grade, sorry.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Shall we do that? So, you were saying there then Joe that you鈥檙e looking after yourself. You mean just like mentally and physically not overdoing it, yeah?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I mean, I鈥檓 mainly eating takeaway food and beer. But in other years I have taken less care of myself, so comparatively I鈥檓 doing all right.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Juliette, you鈥檝e been taking care of yourself as well, haven鈥檛 you, at the Fringe?

JULIETTE-听听听听听 I鈥檝e been trying, which doesn鈥檛 mean succeeding, but I have been trying to do that in new ways.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 It must be so hard here though because one, it鈥檚 such an amazing city and it鈥檚 so vibrant and it鈥檚 so busy, and this job that you have is full on, isn鈥檛 it? And it鈥檚 a big deal and it鈥檚 chaotic I would imagine.

JULIETTE-听听听听听 It is mad, but I鈥檝e been sectioned under the Mental Health Act so I know what madness is.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I love that!

JULIETTE-听听听听听 And this is the good kind. This is the place where madness can breed creativity, creativity can breed madness. And having been diagnosed with 15 different mental health conditions and been in therapy for over 20 years and hospitalised five times this Fringe is amazing. This is like the good stuff.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Easy-breezy.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I really like that she鈥檚 giving her disability credentials there.

JULIETTE-听听听听听 I just want to name that out there.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Put it on the table, I love it. You鈥檙e my kind of girl.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e going to hear more about that later as well. But Joe, I was going to say, going back to you, how would you describe your comedy to people who haven鈥檛 seen you?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I don鈥檛 know. Sometimes it鈥檚 shouty. I find if you shout the jokes louder they鈥檙e funnier. And I guess I鈥檓 quite interested in different perspectives on neurodivergent, so a lot of what I do comes from sort of trying to flip scripts on things. So, you know, doing stuff about my brother being he鈥檚 very severely not autistic [laughter] and talking about things from a different angle. I think the writer Donna Williams is a very important writer to me. I think that everyone should read Donna Williams. And a lot of her stuff was all about that, was about seeing autistic people from another angle, and the way in which our ideas of autisticness have only come from one perspective, and trying to offer different perspectives on that. So, I basically just, yeah, have done what Donna Williams did but try to put jokes on it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Your previous shows have been a lot about politics and the state of the world etc etc. This one, as you said, is called King of the Autistics. Tell me about it and what inspired it.

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I鈥檝e been doing stuff about being autistic for a few years now. And my angle is I think autistic people should have rights, and I believe in the neurodiversity paradigm, so I believe that it鈥檚 good that we鈥檝e got different brains and that that makes the world a better place. And I think autistic people should be treated fairly. And whenever you speak up about those things people will say, 鈥榃ell yeah, but you don鈥檛 speak for all autistic people. You鈥檙e just one person so we don鈥檛 really need to listen to you because you don鈥檛 speak for all autistic people鈥�. So, I decided that I was king of the autistics [laughter] so that if someone says to me, 鈥榊ou don鈥檛 speak for all autistic people鈥�, I can go, 鈥榃ell actually I am their king, I speak for all of them鈥�.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, you just made yourself king?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, that鈥檚 how it works: you just declare yourself.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 How do the other autistic people feel about that?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檒l find in the show it鈥檚 very complicated. I鈥檝e stood down as king because the pressures were too much [laughter]. We had an election and there鈥檚 a new king; but you have to come to the show to find out who that is.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And you got your formal diagnosis as autistic in 2019. What have you learned about yourself since that? And how has that changed how you do things, how you do your comedy etc?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 complicated. What happened was in 2018 my mum gave me a lift, I went for lunch and she gave me a lift home, and as I was getting out of the car she said to me, 鈥極h, by the way, have I ever told you that you鈥檙e autistic?鈥� [laughter]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 [Singing] have I ever told you you鈥檙e autistic?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I said, 鈥楴o, you鈥檝e never told me that before鈥�. And she said, 鈥榃ell, why did you think that I used to run that support group for parents of autistic children?鈥� [laughter] and I was like, 鈥極h yeah, you did do that, didn鈥檛 you, mum?鈥� I wasn鈥檛 really paying attention to what she was doing; I was just sort of in my own world really. And yeah, so I鈥檇 had this informal diagnosis of what they would have at the time called Asperger鈥檚 traits or something like that. And then it had been referred to euphemistically a lot growing up, but I didn鈥檛 pick up on those euphemisms. And then as an adult I had a formal diagnosis.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e gone off the track. That wasn鈥檛 the question at all, was it? Sorry.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. So, how did that change what you do? So, you used to do comedy about other stuff, now you do comedy about being autistic. So, I suppose one example is you鈥檝e talked about drinking beer, you鈥檝e not always drank alcohol, have you?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I like to get drunk now. That鈥檚 what I do at the Edinburgh Fringe! I used to not get drunk because I used to get drunk and then I wouldn鈥檛 make eye contact with people and I鈥檇 move my hands about and I鈥檇 say the wrong thing, and I was very ashamed of who I was. So, I didn鈥檛 drink alcohol when I was a teenager. And now I鈥檓 older and I have this diagnosis, I鈥檓 proud of who I am, and I鈥檓 trying to get hammered at every opportunity [laughter].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Love this. A lot of your material does focus on other stuff that makes you angry though, doesn鈥檛 it, Joey? Like your dislike of men鈥檚 voices I was reading here in the notes, and your own accent. I think you鈥檝e got a lovely voice.

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 My own accent? I don鈥檛 mind my own accent. I always get nervous doing gigs in Scotland because of my accent because I鈥檝e got the accent that Scottish comedians put on when they want to make fun of English people [laughter]. I鈥檓 always self-conscious that Scottish audiences think that I鈥檓 like a local guy doing a caricature act. It just wears me down lots of sorts of voices over the top, particularly men鈥檚 voices because they are generally sort of lower and more resonating, and it just wears me out. That鈥檚 something I have to be conscious of here at the Fringe is I felt awful the other day, and I just went home and was in a鈥�I thought I needed a nap, but I didn鈥檛, I just sat quietly in my room for an hour and it just helped me to sort of reset. There are lots of voices all the time here and that is tiring.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, it is hectic. You had a rant against e-scooters I was reading as well. What would you put into Room 101? I鈥檇 put acrylic nails if that helps.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Tinned fish for me.

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檇 put what in?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Long, long acrylic nails.

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Why do you not like long acrylic nails?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 know, it鈥檚 just something about them, like on me. I love the on other people, but when I had them on me I just couldn鈥檛 do anything. And I鈥檓 disabled enough. It鈥檚 like they disabled me further.

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Right [laughs].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Do you know what I mean?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. But you should see the social model of disability and the world is set up against people with long acrylic nails that鈥檚 a social barrier.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 What would you put in, Sam?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What, about the social model or what I hate?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Your Room 101, yeah, if you had to put something in?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Room 101 is a room where you put the thing that you hate the most.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 He鈥檚 Australian, that鈥檚 why I鈥檓 telling him that.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 London [laughter].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh you鈥檙e in Scotland, that went down well. Good one. You know your audience. Read the room.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Juliette, what would you put in there?

JULIETTE-听听听听听 Oh god. I wouldn鈥檛 put God in there [laughter]. Sorry. I have a whole list of things that make me angry in my show, and so I鈥檓 trying to pick which one. I will choose waiters who say, 鈥業s it just you?鈥� when you work into a restaurant on your own [laughter and applause]. Rude. What do you mean, it鈥檚 just me? It is all of me. And if I鈥檓 asking for a table for one I鈥檓 asking for a table for The One, thank you very much. Just me can just go elsewhere and justifiably spend my money there. Just saying.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Brilliant. Joe, stay there. Thank you.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you Joe.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e going to stick with Juliette now, aren鈥檛 we?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, because Juliette Burton is here in Edinburgh with her show No Brainer. And it鈥檚 at the Gilded Balloon, is it [mispronounces] Teviot?

JULIETTE-听听听听听 Teviot.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Got it wrong, I always do. Teviot Venue. And it鈥檚 a solo comedy show, and you鈥檝e been packing out shows since 2015, haven鈥檛 you? 听

JULIETTE-听听听听听 I鈥檝e sold out 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 every show up in Edinburgh. Before that I was doing solo shows since 2013, double act since 2011. And before that I was in other people鈥檚 shows since 2006. And the first time I came to Edinburgh was as a reviewer in 2005, so I am proof that reviewers are just jealous [laughter].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 The blurb says that No Brainer isn鈥檛 another awareness raising show about mental health, it鈥檚 actually a change-making show. Do you want to explain that to me and the audience as well?

JULIETTE-听听听听听 Yes. So, my solo shows have always touched upon my mental health lived experience, which I鈥檝e already alluded to. And in each of them I try to push the conversation forward a little bit more around mental health lived experience. So, it started off with just coming out as I鈥檝e had mental health experiences and I鈥檝e been hospitalised. I then started doing shows about body confidence, having been a UK size 4 and a UK size 20 due to anorexia and binge eating disorder and having all those experiences, being sectioned for anorexia. And then I did a show about kindness and how kindness can change the world. And in that I started speaking about my hallucinations that I had when I was sectioned under the Mental Health Act. So, each time I was trying to push and push and push just to expand our comfort levels of discussion around mental health and mental illness. And finding intersectionality as well with disability, with just anybody who鈥檚 living life on the outskirts of what is the socially acceptable norm. And the Fringe is the right place to do that; we鈥檙e on the fringe of society, right? So, being able to have these conversations about what鈥檚 deemed socially acceptable and unacceptable, what鈥檚 deemed socially sane or insane, what is deemed funny or not funny 鈥� and many audiences have told me which [laughter]. And I think this is why the Fringe exists is to have those conversations.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 This show, however, having raised awareness for so long it is borne of yet another breakdown that I had during the past four years when I haven鈥檛 been up in Edinburgh. It wasn鈥檛 purely due to the fact that I wasn鈥檛 in Edinburgh [laughs]; there was a global something or other that happened as well. And I really struggled again. I was like, I鈥檝e been in therapy for so long, how is this happening again? And I decided I needed to find out what the root of the problem were, how does my brain work, everyone else got into Wordle and banana bread, I got into neuroscience.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Wow.

JULIETTE-听听听听听 And I found it fascinating. I was like there鈥檚 some cool stuff in there that probably could help a lot of people. I also was doing some deep, deep therapy into the dark shadowy space in therapy, which I鈥檇 been avoiding for all of the time. Because going to therapy turns out is not the same as actually doing therapy.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, what is the difference in that, then?

JULIETTE-听听听听听 I used to go to therapy and perhaps participate in a fairly surface-level engagement of some parts of it. but there are certain things that I wasn鈥檛 ready to look at in my past, in my experience that I don鈥檛 bring to my shows because that is purely for therapy. Comedy isn鈥檛 therapy 鈥� apart from the fact that my therapist is on holiday for three weeks at the moment, during Edinburgh Fringe, how dare she! Anyway.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 What if you met her here?

JULIETTE-听听听听听 [Laughs] she came to my show in 2019. I think that nowadays we鈥檝e done the awareness raising and nothing really changed, either systemically in funding of services or in terms of governmentally policy, or on an individual basis. For me I was still struggling with my mental wellness, so I decided that I needed to personally change and also highlight the lack of systemic change. And a lot of that is crammed into this show, a lot more angrily. And so you can come along. You鈥檒l laugh a lot. You might learn something, but mainly you鈥檒l be laughing. And that might give you some more tools to help you personally change your own experience of your mental wellness. And it will also make you potentially a little bit angry at the lack of funding that certain governments are not giving the services that are so vitally needed, particularly post the global thing that happened that I鈥檓 trying to forget, but I keep talking about.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh I know, it鈥檚 just unavoidable, isn鈥檛 it? You said it鈥檚 a change making show, you explained what that is. What are the tools that we need to rebuild a healthy brain?

JULIETTE-听听听听听 Ooh, this is a big question.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檝e got 30 seconds. Go! [laughter]

JULIETTE-听听听听听 I would say that my brain did break in as much as colloquially speaking during these last four years I lost all of my tools that I was relying on: my social network, my therapy, my therapeutic relationship, my performing, my income, everything that I thought was certain in life was ripped away. And when that happens understandably the best of us, who perhaps didn鈥檛 have any problems before that sort of thing happened, might struggle. For me it wasn鈥檛 an immediate thing, but it took some time and then suddenly in 2021 I just became catatonic. I couldn鈥檛 leave the house, I didn鈥檛 understand what I was going through. I cancelled all of my shows that we鈥檇 scraped back because I could not get up on stage and perform.

I then started learning about the brain, and I think it鈥檚 important that we understand that we are an amazing mass of cells and programming in our lovely little noggins that they鈥檙e just doing their best. Like my mental illnesses are not weaknesses; they are survival mechanisms that have helped me survive overwhelming thoughts and feelings. So, my brain, my polyvagal 鈥� I鈥檝e learned a lot about polyvagal theory, which is how the brain connects to the rest of our bodies 鈥� and I鈥檝e realised that for some of us our brains have formed slightly differently to others. For me it鈥檚 CPTSD, so complex post-traumatic stress disorder, which I see as the roots of the tree of all of my other 15 mental health conditions. I went into the shadowy dark place and for a long while I was buried, but now I鈥檓 sprouting. And sometimes 鈥� to mix my analogies 鈥� you鈥檝e got to have a forest fire for any real growth to happen.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, having said all of that really worthy stuff I would say I am having so much fun, because coming back here, having been to that dark place, and performing every day on stage it鈥檚 just a flipping joy. We can鈥檛 swear. It鈥檚 such a joy to be here, just being here with audiences laughing. That鈥檚 enough. Like all the sold out Laurels, five star reviews and awards, I can tell you that means nothing when you鈥檙e sitting at home along with no audiences there to share it with. Being on stage every single day is this beautiful experience of connection with audiences. And that鈥檚 all I鈥檓 after in life generally.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, laugh and learn about your brain.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

JULIETTE-听听听听听 Yes, that鈥檚 what I was trying to say in that very lengthy speech I just gave [laughter].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Obviously because you鈥檝e got the whole mental health advocacy and you鈥檝e got your comedy as well, would you be the same person if you didn鈥檛 have that comedy? Is the comedy a real support? Is it a help? Would you be a completely different person without the comedy, dealing with what you have to deal with?

JULIETTE-听听听听听 I mean, the honest answer is I don鈥檛 know. But I will say that the first time that I started to want to talk to my friends even about my more unusual mental health lived experiences, so my hallucinations, my experiences of suicidal ideation, being able to make them laugh about it eased the tension. It helped them a lot, and it helped break the tension, ease their anxiety. If we鈥檙e laughing together we feel less alone. And also it鈥檚 the quickest way to change somebody鈥檚 mind is telling a joke. If you鈥檙e able to do the set-up punchline gag someone might start off that experience listening to you thinking they know where it鈥檚 going, but by the end of it they鈥檙e laughing and they鈥檝e changed their perspective. So, it鈥檚 the most succinct way of changing somebody鈥檚 idea of you. And given that I look like the Little Mermaid [laughter] I鈥檓 taking that and running with it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Sam, that鈥檚 your thing as well, isn鈥檛 it, changing people鈥檚 minds?

JULIETTE-听听听听听 Looking like the Little Mermaid.听

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I used to be ginger back in a past time. No, I鈥檓 not trying to jump in here over you, but that changing people鈥檚 minds thing I think it works really effectively with comedy. Our theatre company, FlawBored, it鈥檚 made up of myself, Chloe and Aarion, but a big thing for us was trying to challenge these sort of, we call it like a woke farce, because we鈥檙e basically looking at liberal identity politics within corporate environments or artistic environments, and what that鈥檚 meant for disabled people.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 He doesn鈥檛 use as big a words in the play though, just to say.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, it鈥檚 funnier than that [laughter]. Also I鈥檓 just going to show my disability cards here: I鈥檓 both blind and Australian.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Show off [laughter].

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, I was really confused coming in because I left my stick back in the green room and one of the stage managers said, walk forward. I was like walk where, there鈥檚 all these people. And then there鈥檚 a microphone in front of me and I鈥檓 like argh, what鈥檚 going on.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And the headphones as well.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, where is this!?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, Juliette thank you so much for telling us all about your show, which sounds absolutely amazing. And I know, I鈥檝e been to see it, it鈥檚 got dress-up and glitter, so when you tour again soon everyone should just go and see it.

JULIETTE-听听听听听 Yeah, we will be on tour in September if anyone wants to come.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 definitely coming.

JULIETTE-听听听听听 That would be lovely.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Juliette, you鈥檙e a superstar, you really are. We have audience questions. That will be a really nice time.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Audience questions for any of us, not just Juliette.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e going to keep going yet. We鈥檝e got more interviewing to do, but if you鈥檝e got any questions that you would like to ask our guests:

GIDEON-听听听听听听听听 Hi, I鈥檓 Gideon. I鈥檝e got cerebral palsy. You鈥檝e all mentioned about sort of the relationship between disabled people and non-disabled people in your work. And I wondered if you鈥檇 have any advice for non-disabled people how they might want to talk to disabled people. That stuff people get nervous about being pc or saying the wrong things.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Joe?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I鈥檓 autistic so I say the wrong things to everyone [laughter]. Yeah, I think people are, and I think we just need to accept that in order for progress to happen things just have to be messy and people have to say the wrong things and be embarrassing. And actually things are tricky to talk about. We talk about conflicting inclusion needs; if someone needs a space where they can make noise, and someone else needs a space where they鈥檙e quiet, it鈥檚 difficult for those two people to be in the same space. And inclusion is really difficult. I think progress is in ten years鈥� time we鈥檒l look back on everything that we鈥檙e doing and go, well that wasn鈥檛 very good. That鈥檚 how you progress.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e got another question. Thank you so much for that, Joe. Thank you for asking that question as well.

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e got a question, I guess for Juliette, but other people feel free to chip in as well. You talked about the highs and the lows 鈥� and I can鈥檛 wait to go and see your show by the way 鈥� but I wonder from your perspective what needs to happen to enable people to better understand mental wellness and just to feel comfortable with it?

JULIETTE-听听听听听 Can I pause for a second and get my stats out of my pocket? Would that be okay?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Do it.

JULIETTE-听听听听听 So, one in six young people now have a diagnosable mental health disorder. That鈥檚 five in every classroom. In May alone there were 3,732 urgent referrals to mental health services for under 18s. These are stats by the way from MQ Mental Health Research, an amazing charity. Patients have been hospitalised with 鈥� oh god, I鈥檓 going to the c-word now 鈥� COVID, [laughter] patients who were hospitalised with [coughs] COVID were at much greater risk of developing neuropsychiatric problems than patients admitted for other reasons. And long-COVID 鈥� I鈥檓 so sorry 鈥� is thought to affect 2 million Brits, 3.1% of the population, with symptoms including brain fog, fatigue and depression.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What I鈥檓 trying to say is we need funding. We need so much funding for education, intervention, prevention and research, because without research it鈥檚 just guesswork. And research is going to be the backbone of lobbying government鈥檚 change, changing services, changing diagnostic criteria. And that goes across the board with all disabilities as well.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Also coming to my show I think would really help [laughter and applause].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Now listen, we鈥檝e got time for one more very quick question.

FEMALE-听听听听听听听 Thanks Juliet. I loved that. And I鈥檓 one of the 2 million people with long-COVID who it nearly disabled.

JULIETTE-听听听听听 Welcome.

FEMALE-听听听听听听听 Thank you. And I 鈥� sorry, I鈥檓 going to say the c-word as well 鈥� but COVID could have given us an opportunity to really rethink health and healthcare and taking our health for granted. And I think the opportunity has been missed and we鈥檝e just gone backwards. The 2 million people who have had long-COVID for the last three plus years are quite surprised, disappointed and appalled at the ableism 鈥� to quote what you said earlier 鈥� and are up in arms and wanting to change the way people are treated. And I just wonder, listening to you all, I bet many people coming to your shows have some form of disability and are part of that community, and I just wonder how we can get through to people who are not disabled and who are currently thinking COVID鈥檚 over, no one else is getting COVID anymore, no one鈥檚 getting long-COVID 鈥� when we absolutely are. And there is this massive denial about the fact that anyone can go from being healthy to disabled when clearly that鈥檚 not the case. I just wonder how we reach out to that audience, because it feels like people have got their fingers in their ears and going, la, la, la, it can鈥檛 happen to me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Sam, we鈥檙e giving that one to you, because you鈥檙e giving out disability ally tattoos at the end of your show.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes. Gimmicks, that鈥檚 how you reach out to them [laughter].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 hard, it鈥檚 hard.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I think it鈥檚 a really tough one but it鈥檚 also again for us in our experience, and I can only talk from our experience as well, because I think a big goal for FlawBored was making sure we had a shared space of non-disabled and disabled people. And in the show itself we set it up at the very beginning, so non-disabled people watching it would be like, oh what is this woke trash, and then we rip the carpet out from underneath them. And that was a really big intention to sort of trap them.

JULIETTE-听听听听听 We win them over, right? Whether that鈥檚 through gimmicks or whether through it鈥檚 saying it鈥檚 comedy but then changing their minds, or whether it鈥檚 through, I don鈥檛 know, glittery earrings and beautiful charity shop clothes. Win them around in whatever way possible, but then get them to listen.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think that鈥檚 what I love about standup is for me standup is a very mainstream artform but you can put radical ideas into it, and you can talk about the social model of disability on a Friday night in a club when everyone鈥檚 on a night out. So, that鈥檚 why standup particularly appeals to me.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

JULIETTE-听听听听听 It鈥檚 anger. It鈥檚 what Sam said earlier, it鈥檚 the anger, the force of anger. If you guys are angry then that鈥檚 brilliant because that鈥檚 going to be a motivational force that we can all use to our advantage.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 And everyone doing their thing. And you guys are certainly doing your thing. Listen, we鈥檙e going to move on to Sam now. Sam Brewer, hello darling.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 One of the writers and actors in, okay鈥�

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Can鈥檛 say the title.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, he鈥檚 in a play鈥�

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Because we can鈥檛 say swear words.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�that we cannot tell you what it鈥檚 called because it鈥檚 got rudey-dudey words in it, okay.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Very rudey.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, we鈥檝e been through Edpol several times鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 our legal lot.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�can we shorten it, can we鈥�? No, we can鈥檛. So, we are going to call it it鈥檚 an MF Pleasure. Okay.

JULIETTE-听听听听听 Oh, I get it.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Very clever.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 If you want to find out more just google Sam and you鈥檒l know.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Google FlawBored, not me. Don鈥檛 google me.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I googled you Sam.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Have you got a murky past?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, no murky past here. What are you talking about? [laughter]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, you鈥檙e playing at Underbelly Friesian, that鈥檚 right, isn鈥檛 it?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, Underbelly Friesian, 2:20pm till the 27th August. That鈥檚 the鈥�

JULIETTE-听听听听听 You say that as if it鈥檚 like till the end of time [laughter].

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It feels like it. I think everyone was talking about their Edinburgh Fringe experiences before and I鈥檝e got to be honest, it鈥檚 probably the most stable living situation I鈥檝e had in a long time [laughter]. Before that my flat back in London there was a random man who was sleeping on my bed who I didn鈥檛 know who he was for about a month.

JULIETTE-听听听听听 Really?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now I鈥檝e got my own room, it鈥檚 pretty great [laughter].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 You honestly weren鈥檛 worried when you came up with the name for this play about media, were you really?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 No. I get quite excited now because obviously I know Em, and I love her very much, and we鈥檝e been doing this thing for a year now, and I鈥檓 like down with blind people, right [laughter]. I get well excited when there鈥檚 some technology, or I鈥檓 getting excited about audio description.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I have my Perkins Brailler with me today.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 She had her brailler, yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Have you heard of one of those?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 an amazing piece of machinery.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 a type鈥�it鈥檚 like鈥�

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Straight out of the 鈥�50s.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�an old typewriter, but braille, so six keys. It鈥檚 really noisy and it鈥檚 really heavy and it鈥檚 metal, and everyone in the whole office was salivating over it, ah, this is great.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 We were, we were. But I was thinking now that I鈥檓 down with blind people and stuff and I know about鈥�

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Sorry, it just connected with me, when you said down with blind people you meant like as in down with the kids, right?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Down with the kids, yeah.

JULIETTE-听听听听听 What did you think?

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I thought it was like a protest.

JULIETTE-听听听听听 Yeah.

JOE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Like they鈥檙e taking a real turn [laughter], down with blind people!

JULIETTE-听听听听听 I really thought that too.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Did anyone else feel the same? Is everyone going to start going, down with blind people, down with blind people! [laughter]

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Do it! I was at Bristo Square yesterday and there was a table on one half it was deaf people and one half was blind people.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Wow.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Two natural mortal enemies. It was like the Treaty of Versailles, it was so awful.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Tell us a little bit about FlawBored and also tell us about your show.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, FlawBored is a disability-led theatre company, we鈥檙e a new writing/devising company, which is just a fancy way of saying making work. It was started by Chloe Palmer, Aarian Mehrabani and myself. Aarian and I are both severely sight impaired or blind, and Chloe鈥檚 not disabled; but a big thing for us was sort of trying to create this space of sort of disability-led but sort of creating a shared space between disabled and non-disabled people. And this show it鈥檚 an MF Pleasure.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Well done.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That was written by the three of us and our director, Josh Roach. But the main crux of the show is basically us selling identity and the way that identity has been monetised nowadays. And I don鈥檛 think with disabled identity that you can necessarily monetise that. So, the whole purpose of the show is a PR company where somebody鈥檚 done an ableism and to try and solve the issue, they basically try to create disability as the next cultural cach茅 that people are scrambling for. So, it sort of climaxes to the point where people are trying to opt in to being blind and stuff like that.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Love this.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Which leads to horrific results. But the funniest part about horrific results is any time blind people are watching it they鈥檙e laughing. Everyone else is really uncomfortable [laughter].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I was really uncomfortable with that.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 We need to explain.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You see, not all blind people are the same.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Not all blind people are the same; I have that tattooed on my back.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Ems, we do need, because you know I was a bit unsure of the word ableism for a while and you had to teach me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh god.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 What is doing an ableism?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Sam?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, Sam, over to you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Explain ableism.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 sure we can do it together.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚鈥�

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 One word at a time:

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 doing鈥�

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�something鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�that鈥�

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�is鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�upsetting鈥�

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�or鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�discriminatory鈥�

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�to鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�disabled鈥�

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�people.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, that was really good [applause].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Teamwork. Thank you. So, the branding company did an ableism and they decided, the company decided that blindness was the new thing, and you had an influencer getting people to show people how to have a shower blind and all that.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, and also basically selling鈥�there鈥檚 a line in it like: You鈥檙e a straight white, non-disabled man with a steady job and, I don鈥檛 know, a 40k salary. Yeah? Well, you鈥檝e got nothing to complain about. So, with us they can feel, you know, what, feel marginalised. So, it鈥檚 the selling the idea of marginalisation to non-disabled people so they can complain about something in that sense.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And you had a moment yourself when you were in a call centre when you were really young.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 What happened there?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Sort of like the genesis for this idea sort of like comes from all of our experiences as a team when writing this. But my personal experience with the corporate world and being disabled, I remember working at a call centre years and years ago back in Australia, and I was doing the briefing for something and I was looking really closely at the briefing paper 鈥� because if I need to read something I鈥檒l hold it super close to my face so it looks like I鈥檓 smelling it. And the person who was the boss of the call centre had a big fur coat, it looked very tacky, but she basically went like, 鈥榃hat are you doing? We don鈥檛 hire blind people here!鈥� and everyone who knew me they just clenched up because they heard what she just said. And then I just sat there silently, because I would have been like 18 years old and I didn鈥檛 have the kind of vocabulary I have now to stand up for myself. But within a week at that same call centre they did a diversity and inclusion workshop with disabled people, and it was just a get stuffed moment from me. And that sort of stuff and that sort of righteous anger has motivated us as a group to make this show.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. Do you mind me talking about your diagnosis, Sam?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, okay. Basically I have a thing called Knobloch syndrome. It鈥檚 a terrible, terrible name [laughter]. And when they gave it to me 鈥� well, the doctors didn鈥檛 give it to me [laughter]鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 They gifted you Knobloch syndrome.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. When I moved to the UK I just wanted to register as severely sight impaired so I could get a free Oyster Card so I could get free transport. And they were like, 鈥榊ou know you鈥檙e going to deaf as well?鈥� I was like 鈥榃hat! No one鈥檚 told me that!鈥� I was here when I was 26. I spent six months basically waiting for a second appointment, went back in and they were like, 鈥極h no, you鈥檙e not going to go deaf, you鈥檝e just got this other thing called Knobloch syndrome鈥� and I was like, 鈥極kay, what does that mean?鈥� because immediately you think where my mind鈥檚 going to go. And basically the doctor who was like this professor, he was a very celebrated professor, all the walls at this Moorfields Eye Hospital are like the partition walls you have in like insurance companies so people can hold onto them and peek over, and he peeks over and he shouts, 鈥楽haron! Sharon! Come here!鈥� and another doctor comes running into the partition office. 鈥楩eel the back of his skull!鈥� and they start rubbing the back of my head. And, 鈥楬e鈥檚 got Knobloch syndrome!鈥� and I鈥檓 like 鈥榃hat does this mean? No one鈥檚 told me anything!鈥� And the reason they weren鈥檛 able to diagnose it is usually with Knobloch syndrome the back of your skull is slightly concaved in. so, then Sharon peers over the partition, calls for Steve, Steve comes in, he feels the back of my skull, then Steve calls for Chris, Chris comes in and then Chris takes a photo of me. And then I got my Oyster Card for free transport [laughter].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yay, good one.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I love it. I love this whole idea of disability humour, because for me growing up I鈥檝e always been disabled so for me it was the early stages when I was a bit of a dufuss, let鈥檚 say that, I鈥檇 be cracking all the gags. Actually even up until recently I鈥檇 be like, 鈥極h yeah, I鈥檓 like Madge from Benidorm鈥�. Have you ever seen Benidorm? Madge, the cigarette smoking on the scooter.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 They don鈥檛 know what to do with her, no she isn鈥檛, but she says she is. I don鈥檛 know.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I wonder with humour is it a way to like鈥�for me it was a way to sort of protect myself in the early stages. I was like laughing at myself in a way. But your kind of disability humour seems like you want to educate people as well, bring out the absurdity of many things but also through that educate?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I completely agree. I think for us there鈥檚 one thing where it鈥檚 this kind of punk attitude where it鈥檚 an external driving force. So, the show it teaches you something but it鈥檚 not teaching you something in like, well did you know that the social model of disability is this. It鈥檚 very much using, like anger is a gift in some capacities, and that can really motivate and help you to create something quite powerful to showcase to other people. The work is so powerful! I don鈥檛 mean it like that, but I think that trying to externalise that frustration or externalise the frustrations you鈥檝e had about yourself onto society and sharing that with an audience. Because the reason we go to shows is because A, I want to laugh and B, also for theatre especially it鈥檚 empathy. And I think that鈥檚 the main reason people watch theatre.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 But you don鈥檛 sound like, all of you don鈥檛 sound like you鈥檙e going for the easy win, do you know what I mean, when it comes to the laugh? You鈥檙e so much more than that. Does that make sense?

JULIETTE-听听听听听 I love what Sam said about the, I used to use #mentalhealth in lots of my publicity and stuff, Insta and other social media, and suddenly it became this thing to slap on a t-shirt and then sell to people with mental wellness. And it becomes this commercialised, capitalised thing which is like what鈥檚 happening here, there鈥檚 actual people who are still segregated and ostracised and suddenly it becomes this kind of thing.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

JULIETTE-听听听听听 I don鈥檛 know. I don鈥檛 have any solutions to that; I just have a comedy show [laughter]. But I think that's part of the anger, like you鈥檙e saying, that鈥檚 where that anger resonates from. And when I first started out in comedy somebody told me, 鈥楥omedy is all about what makes you angry鈥� and I was like, 鈥極h no, I never get angry. Holding onto anger is like holding onto hot coals expecting somebody else to get hurt鈥�. Do you know what makes me angry? Pass to me, she鈥檚 an idiot [laughter].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh you guys have been brilliant, thank you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Juliette Burton, Joe Wells, Sam Brewer [applause].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Fantastic. This is the anger episode I feel.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much to our guests again.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, it鈥檚 been brilliant.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you to our audience here and at home. People can get in touch with us, can鈥檛 they?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, they can: accessall@bbc.co.uk. Don鈥檛 ask me what the WhatsApp number is because I cannot remember.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 0330 123 9480.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 We like text messages, or voice notes even better. Subscribe, don鈥檛 forget to subscribe.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 That X thingy.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 @大象传媒AccessAll on Twitter.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Access All on Twitter.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Or X or whatever it is. You鈥檝e been a wonderful audience. Thank you so much.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 And this has been Access All [applause].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Blindy wave, blindy wave.

[Trailer for Newscast]

PRESENTER-听 You know when you鈥檙e worried about something, but then you talk to your friend who knows more about the subject than you do, and straightaway you start to feel better? That鈥檚 what we try and do every day on Newscast.

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, they鈥檙e saying that that would be simple to do, it would give everyone certainty.

PRESENTER-听 We talk to people who are in the news:

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You were chasing me round with a plate of cheese.

PRESENTER-听 We talk to people who know what鈥檚 going on in the news:

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 At least I didn鈥檛 get up and slap anybody.

PRESENTER-听 We talk to people who understand what the news means:

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think that he鈥檚 decided he鈥檚 going to listen, and then he might just intervene.

PRESENTER-听 And we talk to the best 大象传媒 journalists, asking the most important questions:

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听 What鈥檚 wrong with chinos? You don鈥檛 want them, people to start wearing chinos?

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Don鈥檛 start me, Chris.

PRESENTER-听 That鈥檚 Newscast from 大象传媒 News, the podcast that knows a lot of people who know a lot about the news.

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And I was like, go on Kate, put some more welly into it!

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Listen to Newscast every day on 大象传媒 Sounds.

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 glad I asked that.

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 very glad that you asked that!

听

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