´óÏó´«Ã½

26th October 2023

Access All – episode 76

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You don’t just do the podcast do you, Nikki? You actually do other stuff as well.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know. You know that Ems because I had a take Emma to work day yesterday, didn’t I?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] I was like your pet.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was brilliant.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, absolutely.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You know I do Watchdog as well, don’t I, and so I make the films for Watchdog and then I have to go on live on The One Show on a Wednesday.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mix that up all right. And you came and met me and I loved it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I did, and it was great seeing your little pre-show routines, getting your sushi on.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, eat sushi, shove it in my mouth, maybe change a jacket. What I loved is when we came into the studio together, Jermaine Jenas was there because he was presenting with Vicky Hope, wasn’t he?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I was like ‘Jermaine, Jermaine, come and meet Emma, she’s my co-host on Access All’.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And he said that you talk a lot about me.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Very firm handshake as well.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Lovely handshake.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And he often smells quite delicious as well.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I didn’t get close enough to smell him. But I did hear you do an amazing film where you sounded quite Australia with your…

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý …AI scammy voice.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Basically a professor ripped a bit of my chat from the podcast and put it into some AI whatever the hell it is they do, and yeah, got – I can’t remember what I said but I was saying something, and it wasn’t me.

[Clip]

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, I’ve got a copy of your voice actually Nikki.

AI NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What? Nikki Fox here, please transfer the money into the account number I’m about to send you. Ìý

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh my god, that’s actually…I know we’ve been talking about it, but to hear it is kind of blowing my mind slightly.

[End of clip]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But it did sound like you.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, it was a little bit [Australian accent] like this.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, you can do this thing called Personal Voice on your iPhone now where you spend 20 minutes or 30 minutes or however long it takes saying phrases into your phone and it turns it into a voice that you can write, type anything into and it’ll say it out loud and it sounds a bit like you. And I sound American, and I also sound [muffled voice] like I talk with my teeth together a bit as well.

AI EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Access all presenter, Emma Tracey, here. But not the real Emma. Can you tell the difference?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I really want you to come to work with me again, Ems. I loved it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re at work with me right now, Nikki [laughs].

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, that’s a good point that, Ems [laughs].

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s Access All, the disability and mental health podcast from the ´óÏó´«Ã½. Or, if you prefer, it’s just that show with two women who love to have a chat but tend to massively overshare. I’m Nikki Fox.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I’m Emma Tracey. And we are both in London this week.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sharing a small room and the same air, and our love for Access All.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That sounded creepy, but I like it [laughs]. There’s a new disability inspired animation which will be showing every weekend on Channel 5 very soon. Here’s a little snippet:

[Clip]

SPIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m faster than you because I’ve got wheels.

POCKETS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I want wheels too.

GIGGLE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Me too.

[End of clip]ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s called MixMups, and its creator, who’s also disabled, will be with us later.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Technology should be a great enabler, right?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yeah!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But it can also be a disabler too.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Amazing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Problems and solutions are on our agenda this week as we look at a very necessary aspect of daily life: chip and PIN machines.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Go to ´óÏó´«Ã½ Sounds and subscribe to our podcast to make sure you catch us every single week. And you can follow us on X, formerly Twitter, where you’ll also find our transcripts, which is great.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Most of us take paying by card for granted these days, don’t we? But for some blind people the newer touch screen card readers can be a real issue. Their flat screens surfaces have nothing for blind people to touch, no buttons – you know how I love my buttons.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She loves a button.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Love my buttons. So, we can’t put our PIN in if contactless doesn’t work for some reason or other, which often happens. I actually had an experience with this in a restaurant recently when I had already committed to paying for a group of people’s meals, I couldn’t use the machine and it was really embarrassing and a bit demoralising. I’m not alone because Ang Harrad has also had several experiences with these machines.

ANG-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I kind of just have to refuse the item. I have to tell the barista to not start making my drink until I’ve put the payment through, because if it asks for my PIN I will not be able to pay for it. It can be embarrassing, but I refuse to give my PIN number out to a sales assistant or even someone I’m with; it just feels like an invasion of privacy that other people just don’t have to do.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I can really, really relate to that.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t know how many people I’ve given my PIN too over time, because just in the end it’s like quickness or embarrassment, or I just want the cup of tea.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, Ems, maybe these shops should have known a little bit better, because a few years ago the RNIB, which is the Royal National Institute of Blind people, and UK Finance, which is the trade association for financial services like card readers, well they worked on this, and there are now a couple of solutions. Joining us to talk about this is Dave Williams. He’s a customer experience manager at the RNIB. Welcome, welcome Dave.

DAVE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, lovely to be with you both.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Does the RNIB hear from a lot of blind people facing issues with these card readers? And what kinds of problems are they having?

DAVE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, we do, and it is a real problem. I’ve been in that situation as well where I’ve gone to pay for something and I’ve been asked to enter my PIN on a touchscreen and I haven’t been able to do it. It is hugely frustrating, and we mustn’t accept this. And we do hear a lot from customers about these machines, which are increasingly used by particularly the small to medium sized businesses because they’re very widely available. You can walk into a high street shop now and you can buy a touchscreen point of sale machine for 20 or 30 quid. There are some solutions available. So, some of the manufacturers have tactile templates that fit over the touchscreen that will then guide your fingers into the positions of the keys on the keypad. There are also accessibility modes on some devices which will offer some audio cues to help you identify where the number pad is.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’ve got a clip of what it sounds like this machine.

[Clip]

VOICE 1-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý To enter digit two, start in the top left and move your finger onto the screen. When you hear a beep you will know you’re on the number one.

VOICE 2-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PIN pad below [beep].

VOICE 1-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Then move to the right, and when you hear another beep you will know you’re on the number two. [Beep] Once you have found the digit you want lift your finger and double tap anywhere on the screen to enter it.

VOICE 2-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý One digit entered.

[End of clip]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’ve used these machines, how do you do it, Dave?

DAVE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I think it’s important to emphasise that many blind and partially sighted people are using touchscreens every single minute of every single day, right, and we’re using screen reading software on our smartphones. So, I know that 20 years ago the idea that something might have a touchscreen used to fill us with horror, didn’t it, and we’d sort of run for the garlic, that touchscreens were inaccessible and that was that. But obviously the world has moved on and we know that touchscreens can be made accessible, and so the accessibility mode in these devices tries to use some of that ability. But I appreciate maybe for a less tech savvy person that’s going to be challenging. And in that situation I might be looking for an alternative way to pay.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And Dave a lot of these machines already have an accessibility mode. But how do businesses find out how to do that or know how to do it?

DAVE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, there is an accessibility icon on the screen of devices that have this mode. I should emphasise that it isn’t all machines that have an accessibility mode; many won’t.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay.

DAVE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And in some cases you may need a tactile template. And the reality is that in some cases you may need to find an alternative way to pay.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Dave, do you know the answer to this: why have businesses gone to these touchscreen machines? Why them instead of button machines?

DAVE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They like the touchscreen machines because the screen can be repurposed to do other things: they can show you advertising; they can offer to upsell an additional thing at the time of purchase; they might offer you the option to add a tip; things like that. They are quite low cost in many cases as well.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think the other point to make here, Emma, as well is you and I are thinking about this from the point of view of somebody who’s totally blind, but I have heard from partially sighted people that actually in some cases having that larger screen, that brighter screen is sometimes high contrast, sometimes easier for people with low vision to see visually.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, you’ve given us some solutions, so thank you for that, Dave. But it is clear from some of the messages that we’ve been getting that many shops they’re not getting on board with all of the accessibility features that they could. Cath and Alex both got in touch with us to share their frustration. We’ve got a clip of them now:

CATH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I had to pay with cash in the end because I wasn’t able to enter my PIN on the touchscreen. It’s really worrying for me if this becomes widespread because I just won’t be able to enter my PIN when it’s required, and I feel I need to have cash with me all the time.

ALEX-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She said oh, don’t worry about it, when you come in next time if it happens again you can just give us the money next time. And I thought well, that’s very kind of you, but that’s really not the point.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Frustrating. And I know I was joking with you before, Emma, but it is the simple things and they can add up, can’t they?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Drip drip.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, totally. Well, joining us now is the brilliant Chris Fry, a lawyer who specialises in disability discrimination. Welcome, welcome Chris Fry. Thank you for joining us.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you for having me.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, you are familiar with the situation. I just want to ask you, who do you think is responsible for making sure that these card machines are accessible for people who really need them to be accessible?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is a consumer related thing so it is the person that’s providing the service, so the newsagent, the store is responsible for making sure that its services are accessible.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, so it just squarely lies with them?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It does. I mean, there is a question about whether or not the people who produce these options ought to be considering whether accessibility is baked in.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But that’s really a problem for the people that are buying those solutions from those companies. If I was instructed by somebody who then couldn’t access the service then we would be suing the business itself, and the business then you would expect to then take it up with the provider. But ultimately it’s an anticipatory duty, anybody buying a product which it’s then hoping to use as a point of sale for people with disabilities has to sort of essentially risk assess it and work out whether or not this is going to suit their customers.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, has anyone ever taken a business to court over their inaccessible card reader?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, there have been a few cases that I’ve been involved with. Essentially people with sight loss often have problems with chip and PIN, which is why RNIB worked with various institutions to arrange for most chip and PIN machines to have a number five with like a little pip on it, like a little raised spot.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, so it was disabled people fighting that got the spot on the five?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, it was, through RNIB which was obviously brilliant.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is you can by cash an excuse for people who don’t have the accessible card readers? So, can they just say you can pay with cash?

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, it’s potentially an alternative if it’s handled correctly. But most ATMs are still not talking ATMs. And their height is also a problem for people as well, so, it’s not a given. The whole infrastructure needs to be taken into account when it comes down to that. But then that also overlays with inaccessible communications. So, you should be told as a customer that your only option for payment is touchscreen so that you can make alternative arrangements. It’s no good getting to the counter after having done your shop and not knowing what’s in your basket, what it’s going cost and how you’re going to pay, and then where the ATM is in order to go and pay.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Chris, that was so interesting. Thank you so much for coming on. We did contact to the Federation of Small Businesses who sent us this statement from Tina McKenzie, their policy chair:

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý ‘Digital payment systems which use touchscreen readers can be convenient for small retailers and for many customers who prefer to pay by card. But it’s absolutely vital for accessibility for blind and partially sighted people to be considered as well. Accessibility is a basic necessity, and with digital payment options continuing to evolve it should be at the forefront of card company and terminal manufacturers’ minds.’

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s the guest that I know I’ve been waiting for, Emma, in the studio. We’ve been speaking about this wonderful human a lot, haven’t we?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We have. We’ve spoken about it. We’ve heard her voice.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But we have not met her.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Until now.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Until now. We are joined in the studio by Georgina Rose. Now, Georgina is the audio describer for one of my favourite shows ever, Strictly Come Dancing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Woo!

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And she’s with us now. Hello Georgina.

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý Hello, I’m so excited to meet you guys as well.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I cannot tell you how incredible it is to hear you specifically, but audio description live on Strictly on a Saturday night. You used to audio describe the show afterwards and it used to go up on iPlayer mid-week.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But you want to watch it with your family, you want to watch it with your friends when everyone else is, you want to follow the tweets, you want to do the socials. And now we can because Georgina is there with us in the room describing the dancing, describing the costumes, describing the people’s faces, the audience, the set. It changes Strictly from a bit of music and singing to what’s actually happening in the show, to the actual dances.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How does that make you feel though, Georgina, to hear that?

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý I’m actually feeling pretty emotional because I was so excited when we got the opportunity to do this as a live programme. It’s a really new thing for us to do. This incredible team of people have made it happen and managed to boil it down to a single button that I have to press. So, hearing that sort of feedback and actually seeing what’s been going on on social media as well has made it all worthwhile. Because my sole aim is to make sure that blind and partially sighted fans of Strictly can enjoy those big moments at the same time as the family they’re sitting around watching it, so everyone can do a woah at the same time together. So, that sort of feedback drives me on.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you get more nervous because you’re doing it live?

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý I go a little bit quiet for the half hour beforehand. I work with an amazing colleague called Pauline Cavilla. We get sent footage of a rehearsal, so we’re able to watch the dance through once. So, we’ll write a script for each dance. You don’t know what’s going to happen on the night.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Of course.

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý It could all go absolutely perfect and there not be any difference. But human beings being human beings, they’re going to trip over, they’re going to be more nervous. What I’m trying to do is read a script of what we’ve already scripted to that rehearsal dance, but I’m also watching what’s happening live on screen. So, I don’t really have time to get nervous because my brain’s having to operate on lots of different levels. I’m looking out for someone, Angela Rippon’s foot kept falling out of her shoe.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh the Rippon.

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý Which I believe happened this week [laughs]. I’m trying really hard to concentrate on two things at once. Once the show starts I’m as excited as anyone else. And for me I’m really responding the way I would if I was sitting at home watching it with my family.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How creative can you be when you’re doing it live?

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý I mean, I think I’m pretty over-enthusiastic when I’m doing the description, [laughs] just because I’m enjoying it so much. And I want to put across how passionate a dance is or how close the couples are, or the looks that they’re giving each other. That’s what makes it juicy and exciting for me as a viewer is how those two people are working together.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She says things like, ‘He gives a smouldering look’.

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý I think with a programme like Strictly, because it’s so joyful and camp and bright and beautiful and just totally innocent enjoyment, I think there’s definitely space for me to be able to blur the lines between what would be a very formal audio description of something and a more enhanced audio description maybe.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you ever feel like you’ve gone too far with what you’re embellished or said or whatever?

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý I definitely wouldn’t say I’d embellished it. I’ll only say what’s happening. Obviously it’s my interpretation so I can’t be completely detached. I’m going to have my own personal response to how a dance is going. Sometimes the judges disagree with me afterwards, which is a bit off-putting. And obviously when we used to do it pre-recorded I’d be able to watch it first, hear what the judges said…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý …and then tailor my audio descriptions to pick up those bits they’re talking about.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Amazing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s so brilliant.

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý But now it’s kind of like, I mean if I press the button during the judges responses there’d be an awful lot of, ‘Oh come on mate…!’

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is brilliant though. We’ve got so much room for fun here because Motsi could have contradicted you. Who’s right, Motsi or Georgina?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, they contradict each other though. People who haven’t watched a lot of audio description in the theatre and they’ve only heard it on television won’t have heard stumbles before.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Stumbles?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Whispering] Georgina, every now and again, she kind of stumbles on her words.

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý I do trip on my words sometimes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She’s doing two hours of live.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I wouldn’t have any of this [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was actually about to say that I love the stumbles because again it makes me feel more like she’s in the room with me, and it’s more natural and normal. And Tess stumbles, Claudia stumbles, the judges stumble; Georgina’s part of the cast now for me. But I think it’s natural. And how would she not?

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý And Georgina doesn’t have autocue.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How would she not for two hours? And that leads me to my next question. What happens if you need the loo?

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý Oh, do you know what, this is the big question I was asking myself before we started. We had a practice run and I timed how long it took me to get to the toilet, pee, wash my hands and get back again. I got it down to two minutes ten seconds. Especially when it’s two hours 20 minutes, I was like I’m going to have to go; it’s happening, we can’t pretend it’s not.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, because you have to lubricate your voice, you have to drink a bit of water.

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý Well, this is it, I have to have something going in. But I normally time it sort of once I’ve described them going up the stairs, which is sometimes the only opportunity I get to describe the costumes really properly, once they’re chatting with Claudia in the Clauditorium I know I’ve got the time to quickly whip out and whip back again and not sound too out of breath for the next thing that’s going to happen [laughs].

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you struggle with timings? Because when they come down the stairs it’s quite quick, and I’d imagine the outfits are a massive part of Strictly, and the make-up and the hair.

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý I know, and they’re working on them right up until the last minute, so it’s the one thing that we don’t have any access to beforehand to describe. So, my lovely colleague Pauline, as they are coming down the stairs, I don’t have time to say anything, she is furiously trying to write out descriptions of what they’re wearing. And there’s a lot of frantic passing of notes going on between us.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s a great insight as well.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sweet Georgina, wouldÌý you do us a favour at Access All?

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý Oh always. Go on.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Would you smuggle a word in for us so we could feel, we don’t want to get you sacked…

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý Yeah, we’ll put that in [laughs].

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t know what the word… Em, have you any ideas? I was thinking peanuts but I think that’s terrible.

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý Can we put foxy in maybe?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Foxy, let’s do that.

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý I’ll try and throw a foxy in.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That would be quite a good one, wouldn’t it?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, I think because you could say that in lots of different ways.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Georgina, it’s been so, so lovely having you in. And to be here with Emma as well in the studio and to have you between us – sounded wrong – but we’ve loved it.

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý [Laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s been a joy.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s been a joy, it really has. And it is a massive thing that you’re here.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you feel on the cusp of a big, big thing?

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý I really hope so. I’m enjoying it so much and the feedback has been so tremendous that I just can’t see us stopping now.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know it’s important, but I’d put your prices up, love [laughter].

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Access All with Nikki Fox.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, there’s always one TV programme from your childhood that will forever stick in your mind. For me it’s Button Moon Funhouse, there’s a whole lot of fun, Round the Twist with the best theme tune ever. Do you remember it, Ems?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Singing] Have you ever, ever felt like this.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I could go on. But our next guest is hoping her brand new stop-motion series, MixMups – I love it – is going to stay in the hearts of millions of children around the world for years to come. We are joined today by Rebecca Atkinson. Hello.

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I’m very excited to be here.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Honestly, it’s so lovely having you on. I was MixMupping last night, having the time of my life [laughs]. But for people that haven’t seen it yet it’s your brand new show. Do you want to give us a flavour of what it’s all about?

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sure. So, MixMups is a new 52-part stop-motion series for preschool children. And it basically centres around three little friends who live in a helter-skelter house. They’ve got a magic wooden spoon and a mixing box, and they place objects in this mixing box and they mix up the magic inside the box and they get sucked into the box to go on adventures inside the box. So, it's really about young children’s ability to transcend reality and disappear into their imagination.

[Clip]

NARRATOR-ÌýÌý In Mixington Valley the MixMups play. What kind of adventure will they mix up today?

SPIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What are you looking at, Giggle?

POCKETS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The moon. It’s ginormous and bright yellow, and it’s covered in holes just like cheese.

SPIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Maybe it is cheese.

GIGGLE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Let me see, please!

[End of clip]

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, tell us about the characters. Because we’ve not just got on you’re here for laughs, we are a disability podcast, aren’t we Rebecca, so tell us about the characters.

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, the characters are three main characters: there’s Pocket the bear; she’s got lots of pockets around her body for keeping things near and safe and organised. And she’s a visually impaired character so she’s got tunnel vision, the same as me. She’s got a guide dog called Yapette, and she’s got a white can as well. We’ve then got Giggle the cat.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, the cat.

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Giggle the stripey cat who uses a wheelchair.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I love the cat in the wheelchair.

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She has an assistance guinea pig called Roller Guinea. And then we’ve got Spin who is a little red rabbit. And Spin is non-disabled, but he’s a very, very busy little guy.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You had to do it I suppose, didn’t you?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Talking non-disabled.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Chuck one of the non-disableds in, why not?

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] well it’s all about subversion this series. So, I looked very hard when I was developing it about how disability has been handled in children’s industries before and how we can creatively move on with that in MixMups. So, those are the three main characters with their two assistance pets. And then there’s another character, and adult character, called the Lucky-Loover Bird, who is a little grey trunk-beaked creature. She’s sort of part elephant, part dolphin, part bird, and she is the MixMups’ magical neighbour, and she’s the keeper of the magic. And then in every episode they go on these adventures, whether that’s to the beach or, I don’t know, baking or whatever the theme is. And they always meet the Lucky-Loover bird on their adventures and she helps them to solve their problems and guide them. And she had the mantra which is that there’s always another way. So, whatever the problem is that they encounter, whatever the barrier is they encounter, she guides them to realise that there’s another way to do things.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You first came up with this series idea, didn’t you, seven years ago, is that right?

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Eight years actually to get MixMups funded, produced and onto the screen. I started this journey in 2015 when I noticed that there were very few representations of disability in toys. I started something called The Toy Like Me campaign back then to call on the global toy industry to better represent disabled children in their products.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh I remember that. Was that you?

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. So, that’s where it all started. I had two children of my own, and I’d just got a guide dog, and I noticed that there were no positive representations of disability in toys. So, I started making over toys with Fimo modelling clay and taking high-res images of what they might look like, so what Barbie might look like if she had a hot pink hearing aid, or what Tinkerbell might look like if she had an arm splint. I put these images online and they went viral. There was a lot of quite emotional response really, people saying, ‘I want that, where…? Why didn’t I have that when I was a child?’ or they wanted it for their disabled child.

And so in the course of that I did some consultation work for a global toy brand, but what happened was they came back with design iterations, even after extensive consultation, which were just basically still pandering to stereotypes about visually impaired people, big dark glasses. And it was at that point that I realised okay, so campaigning to get the industry to change is not enough; I am going to go back and create a brand myself.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, you’re not using stereotypes. If you’re not using the big dark glasses what are you using to represent disability in your characters?

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I am using play basically. So, when I first started developing this series I looked at play theory, play schemas, play personalities that we all have as young children, how we might be driven towards wheeled play or we might be driven towards dressing up. And then I used that to create characters that are driven by their play needs first. And then added in the disabilities and the impairments to round out their characters. And I’ve worked very closely with the animation team to make sure that those characters’ range of movement; so with the wheelchair user what she can and can’t do is based on the range of movement of an individual person. Because one wheelchair user might actually be able to stand and walk short distances; another person might need to use a hoist and doesn’t walk at all.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, because everyone always thinks, because I sit down, everyone thinks I can move my arms. But I’m as buff as Ade Adepitan.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But what I love though is that it’s not just the characters where disability is included and it’s all inclusive, but in a nice gentle nuanced way, rather than slapping you in the face thing, it’s also in the adventures that they go on. One of your episodes is about the Easter Bunny, isn’t it? Tell us a bit more about that.

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, that’s one of my favourite episodes. So, when they get into the adventure they find themselves on an Easter egg hunt, but it’s a beepy Easter egg hunt, so the eggs beep from the outset:

[Clip]

POCKETS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Beep] did you hear that beep?

SPIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What?

POCKETS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it’s this way.

[End of clip]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Love it.

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Which was inspired by my godson actually who’s blind, and his mum had created a beeping egg hunt for him so he could listen for the eggs. So, when the MixMups get into this adventure the world is set up for them, so it’s like a fantasy world, if everybody was blind…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It is a fantasy world if it’s set up for disabled kids, definitely a fantasy world.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs].

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It is. So, I sort of like okay, so disabled children are excluded from so much, but if this show is being made by a disabled person, myself, then how do I create a small world which is how the world would be if it was fully inclusive.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, yeah.

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý If it was fully inclusive you would go on the Easter egg hunt and it would already be beeping, and so the visually impaired character can hear the eggs and enter into that hunt on an even footing.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What you need to do now, Rebecca, is when the characters go into this world where everything is perfect you need to then introduce non-disabled characters who really struggle in that world.

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There is a story where they go and they do a sports day race:

[Clip]

VOICE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý On your marks, get set, go!

[End of clip]

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But Spin, who is non-disabled, struggles to win a race because first of all the wheelchair user is faster than everybody else and keeps on winning:

[Clip]

VOICE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m faster than you because I’ve got wheels.

[End of clip]

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Then they slow the race down and the visually impaired character wins because she’s very good at being cautious and sort of grounded in her movement:

[Clip]

POCKETS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ooh, I’m the winner!

SPIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s not fair. Pockets weren’t even going very fast.

[End of clip]

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then eventually they have to devise a zigzag race which the non-disabled character finally wins because he can get round the corners faster than the wheelchair and the guide dog user. And an easy way to write that story would have been to do what you see again and again, which is everybody let the disabled characters win by hanging back. And that’s an ableist lens of saying oh, we let them win.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Whereas this is about saying okay, everyone can win if the race is right.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, that’s lovely.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. It’s stop-motion. I don’t like to mention that I’m blind very much, Rebecca.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She mentions it all time Rebecca, like literally.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Poor Nikki.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She doesn’t stop.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But the fact is that I don’t know what stop-motion is. So, what’s stop-motion?

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, you create physical puppets, so the puppets are about 10, 11, 12 inches tall. What’s been really interesting about it is that they have been working very closely with me to capture the sort of authentic nuance of disabled body language. We will talk to them about some of the finer little details in this visually impaired character and the wheelchair character. So, the visually impaired character sometimes misjudges the doorways and might just sort of knock into the door. She might double tap to find things; she’s quite tactile. I trained the animation team in how to get that puppet to use a long cane correctly.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you remember I’ve told you about this, Nikki, about the cane? You put one foot out, you put the cane the other side, then you put the other foot out.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Like a crutch don’t you, you were saying?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, no, you just cover yourself, so you’ve got the cane out of the foot out at any one time on each side, so you’re covering each side.

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And also make sure that we showed the range between, you know disability is not binary, so it’s not a case of you can walk or you have to use a wheelchair all the time. The children I consulted they wanted to see the grey areas in between and they wanted to see this character sat on the floor, they wanted to see her sat on the sofa and not always using her chair in public.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Someone asked me if I showered in my scooter.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs].

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Crucial final question though, Rebecca: have you got the catchy theme tune?

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There is a catchy theme tune. I’m not going to try and sing it for you because I’m am the world’s worst singer. But yeah, there’s a very, very sweet catchy theme tune which is sung by the children who do the voices for MixMups. Which I must add, they’re all disabled actors. All four roles in the show are disabled actors. So, the Lucky-Loover bird is played by Gillian Dean who’s blind, and then we’ve got three disabled child actors playing the lead roles of Pockets, Giggle and Spin.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Theme music playing] we can hear it going now.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We can hear it, Rebecca, and I’m dancing.

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can you?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Blind girl dancing.

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s like an earworm, it will probably be in there forever.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Moving my head.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Rebecca, thank you so much.

REBECCA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much for having me.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Lovely. Well, if you want to catch the MixMups go to Channel 5, Milkshake, and from the 4th November you can watch them every week.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, that’s us mixing up the MixBups…MixMups. It’s a bit of a tongue twister that.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It is a tongue twister.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý With Rebecca. But I’m looking forward to watching that with my children.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Are they the right age for them?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They’re a little bit old but I’m going to make them watch it. It’s disability, they need to learn [laughs].

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They’ve got a blind mum, I think they’re doing all right.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, shove it down their throats, that’s what I say.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I don’t have kids so I’ll just get Buddy to watch, my assistance dog.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What do you reckon? Well, we love hearing from you. You can keep up to date withÌý us obviously on all the socials, on Twitter or X or whatever it’s called. And you can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk, because we absolutely love to hear what you think of the show.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We do.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what you want us to look into or speak about or whatever.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes please. I do have some housekeeping notes if you like.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ooh, go on.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, if you listen to us on ´óÏó´«Ã½ Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts, or on your smart speaker, the next episode will not arrive next Thursday.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh no. Because new episodes will be appearing on Monday nights from now on. So, you won’t have one next Thursday but you’ll have one the following Monday and every Monday after that.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, we’re going to be starting your week. It feels like there’s more pressure involved there, Ems.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, we’re setting the agenda, darling.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] yeah. We’re going to start your week rather than end it, eh. Got that everyone? Is that good?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Setting you up for an excellent week I’d say.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for listening. We’ll say goodbye.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bye.

[Trailer for Newscast]

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Newscast is the unscripted chat behind the headlines.

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s informed but informal.

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We pick the day’s top stories and we find experts who can really dig into them.

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We use our colleagues in the newsroom and our contacts.

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Some people pick up the phone rather faster than others.

CALLER-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello?

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We sometimes literally run around the ´óÏó´«Ã½ building to grab the very best guests.

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Join us for daily news chat.

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý To get you ready for today’s conversations.

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Newscast, listen on ´óÏó´«Ã½ Sounds.

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