大象传媒

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13th November 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 78

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

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EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Do you find that when you meet new people or you go into a new situation you have to train them, consciously or subconsciously? You have to say all these extra words and move them from holding your arm so that you鈥檙e holding their arm if you鈥檙e blind, like I am; tell them how to give you your drink, which sounds ridiculous, but just like put it in front of my hand, tell me where it is, put my hand on it, something like that; put my hand on the back of the chair when you're showing me where to sit down. I have just been on a weekend in Ireland where I didn鈥檛 have to do any of that. And the people that I was with I hadn鈥檛 seen in 20 years, but they remembered. And they remembered all of the training that I gave them subconsciously in university. Didn鈥檛 even know I was doing it. Didn鈥檛 feel like I was training them; just felt like I was, you know, having a nice time. And they remembered everything I taught them, which was just beautiful. And they were describing things: they told me about Siobhan鈥檚 velour jumpsuit, they told me about the dancing that was happening at 2am and the shakes that were being thrown, and that one of the guys was blowing kisses to the other guy across the room 鈥� but in a really natural way, not in a, 鈥淟et me just tell you what鈥檚 going on here, Emma. On your left is this, on your right is that, and just at 2 o鈥檆lock there that鈥檚 Tom鈥�.

When I go into new situations there is a lot of quiet training going on so that I can feel comfortable with people and they can feel comfortable with me. But it has to be my training. It might not be another blind person鈥檚 training; it might have to be my specific Emma blind person鈥檚 training. Someone else could say, 鈥淥h well, my friend likes to hold onto my shoulder鈥�. I鈥檓 like I don鈥檛, I like to hold on just behind the elbow, and if you could put you hand behind your back when you鈥檙e going through a narrow space that would be awesome. And I am quite pleased that I actually appear to have done some work at university when I didn鈥檛 realise I had done any.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 This is Access All, the 大象传媒鈥檚 disability and mental health podcast. I鈥檓 Emma Tracey with you from Glasgow this time. Flying solo just now, but Nikki Fox will be with me in a bit for our interview with the amazing David Holmes. David was Daniel Radcliffe鈥檚 stunt double on the Harry Potter films until an accident stopped all that. We鈥檒l also be talking about how changes to the Mental Health Act will not be happening in this parliament. And we鈥檒l be joined by the 大象传媒鈥檚 social affairs correspondent, Michael Buchanan, to talk about some potential benefit changes ahead. You can subscribe to us on 大象传媒 Sounds or wherever you get your podcast from. And get in touch with us, we love to hear from you. We鈥檙e @大象传媒AccessAll on X, or you can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I promise you鈥檙e going to really, really enjoy this interview we have for you. I did it with Nikki recently and it鈥檚 with David Holmes. And he was Daniel Radcliffe鈥檚 stunt double for the Harry Potter films. And he actually became paralysed from the chest down whilst rehearsing for Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 1. Now, David and Daniel Radcliffe became really proper good firm friends while filming Harry Potter, and they remained friends. And they鈥檝e made a documentary for Sky about their friendship and about David Holmes鈥� incredible life story. Here鈥檚 our chat with David:

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Emma and I are beyond excited to have David Holmes on the line with us now from his beautiful home with extraordinary house plants behind him, looking fabulous. David, it鈥檚 so nice to meet you. Hello.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, and thank you for having me. I really appreciate you guys, thank you.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh David, I love the documentary. Emma said to me you鈥檙e going to love it. I loved it. My fella and I watched it and I was like you are such a dude.

[Clip]

DANIEL-听听听听听听听听 Dave will do the most crazy dangerous physical stuff, make it look easy, and not even be doing it for camera; just be doing it to practice or just for fun with Mark because they were seeing how far they could push each other.

MARK-听听听听听听听听听听听 We thought we were invincible. We would try and do things, especially Dave, things that no one was doing, no one thought was possible.

[End of clip]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, for people that haven鈥檛 seen it yet let鈥檚 start from the beginning. I mean, your life is just unbelievable. First off, when did you realise that you wanted to be a stuntman?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I was a gymnast, and my gymnastics coach was a stuntman, so I was looking up to that man a lot and hearing of his stunt stories. And then I was fortunate enough to be brought in on Lost in Space at the age of 14.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I know, I saw that.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 I had my first taste of Hollywood at a young age. And the first filmset I saw was the inside of a spaceship whilst glued into a rubber suit diving out of the way of a pyrotechnic. I mean, what is not to like, right?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Unbelievable.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 fair to say, isn鈥檛 it, I love this about you, you were having the time of your life? You were like yes, this is the industry for me. You were going out partying at night time. You just loved, loved, loved being a stuntman, didn鈥檛 you?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, it鈥檚 the best job in the world. And if they came back tomorrow, my lovely legs, then I鈥檇 go back to work again. That is 100%.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 But you鈥檙e still really into it as well, aren鈥檛 you, because you鈥檝e got a podcast called 鈥� and I鈥檓 going to have to get this right鈥�

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Go on.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Get it right.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Cunning Stunts.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Well done, yeah. it鈥檚 all right, don鈥檛 worry, I鈥檝e made the slipup before as well [laughter]. I love the stunt industry. I love being associated with all the super talented men and women that put their lives at risk for the sake of storytelling. Recently actually this weekend I just got the news they鈥檝e brought me back in on the stunt register as an honorary stuntman.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Amazing.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 back again at work, which means that I can legally set myself on fire in this wheelchair if I wanted to.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 David, we鈥檝e become very much into you now, so if you could refrain from setting yourself on fire that would be good.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 But it is a very, very dangerous profession. I know from listening to stuntmen and women just listing their injuries and listing the kind of leftover pains they鈥檙e in etc. I mean, were you always worried that something would happen to you?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 I always accepted that there鈥檚 an element of risk and there is a chance of getting hurt in the job. Obviously not to the extremes that I live with with a spinal cord injury, but you shouldn鈥檛 be at work as a stunt performer if you don鈥檛 include that into the job. When someone gets hit by a car they get hit by a car. When someone falls down the stairs they fall down the stairs. You might have pads on and stuff and you might be trained to do it in as least risky way as possible, but there is always that element of risk involved and the chance of picking up a bruise or a broken bone here and there.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, listen, for people that don鈥檛 know can you tell us a little bit about your accident and what actually happened?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay, yeah. So, we were rehearsing the first week鈥檚 rehearsals on the last film Harry Potter 7 Part 1. And we were building up a stunt reaction from Harry having the snake strike with Nagini, and also Harry and the Voldemort final Avada Kedavra spell. And basically we were just building the stunt rehearsal and unfortunately something went wrong and I ended up folding my chest into my nose and dislocating my spinal cord at the C7 vertebrae, and then I landed on the crash mats below and was paralysed from the point. I was fully conscious. My stunt coordinator asked me to grab his hand and squeeze his fingers, and because I鈥檇 lost hand function I couldn鈥檛 squeeze his fingers. And because I鈥檇 broken enough bones beforehand I knew exactly what I did.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You did, you knew it, you just knew it?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 I was just like broken my neck, Greg.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And also what I love about you is you have had a lot to deal with. You have been through the wringer for sure. You鈥檝e been in and out of hospital, operation after operation. And I know Daniel Radcliffe, who鈥檚 a very good friend of yours, said the same thing about you on your worst day you鈥檙e still better company than anyone else. And that is like you do somehow manage to keep your ** together, don鈥檛 you? You do get through it. And I can tell you don鈥檛 shy away from the fact it is hard, but still you鈥檝e got no time for being down or negativity, have you? You just kind of get through it.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 No, it doesn鈥檛 work. I have extreme ups and extreme downs, and you either learn to ride the waves of life or you get swept away, and I choose to surf.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But what is it about you do you reckon that you鈥檝e got that鈥檚 made you that way?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 I grew up in a very hard sport where gymnastics nothing is gained without hard work. And it instilled an amazing lesson which I carry with me every single day. So, even now to this day I still try and find ways to push myself. So, I sit at the bottom of a pool with a scuba bottle on and I do breath holds. It was only two weeks ago I managed to break my record.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Did you? What鈥檚 your record?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, even with a reduced lung function I can do 4 minutes and 25 seconds.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You what?!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 No! You鈥檙e just an extreme, extreme sportsperson. I watched a film about free diving there recently and it鈥檚 so scary. You just love the scariness, do you?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, well you鈥檙e only living when you鈥檙e nearly dying, right?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh my god.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] do you know what else I love? Your mate, your best mate who is now your PA, isn鈥檛 he?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Tommy.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Tommy鈥檚 the yin to my yang, the man that grounds me, yeah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Because I use PAs to get around, I鈥檝e got my lovely Libby and we鈥檝e got such a beautiful friendship. But Tommy was your mate, wasn鈥檛 he, beforehand.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And obviously you and him now work together, which is great.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 I love him. There is no truer commitment and dedication of friendship than what that man does for me. And I鈥檓 very, very grateful.

[Clip]

TOMMY-听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 just one of them people I鈥檓 just like right, let鈥檚 get on with this now. Which I think is part of the reason why Dave likes to have me work for him because I don鈥檛 beat around the bush as such. I鈥檒l give him a little bit of sympathy, but then it鈥檚 got to be right, come on, game face on, we鈥檝e got to get on with this.

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Is it a big responsibility being a PA?

TOMMY-听听听听听听听听 No, I鈥檓 hanging around with my best mate. It鈥檚 not a responsibility.

[End of clip]

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 He is family to me, always has been and always will be.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 How did that all come about? Did you guys just decide together, oh do you want to do this? Or he was just like I鈥檒l do it?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 No, he was, when I came out of hospital him and Mark, who鈥檚 in the film, Mark鈥檚 brother Darren, another good friend of mine, him and Mark were the two men that carried me up the stairs from my first home visit to get me in the bath and help me wash. And Tommy has been picking me up ever since. I have been in his arms. I would like to not be in his arms more than his own child, [laughter] but over the years we鈥檝e been working together I probably have.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Ah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Friendship is massive for you, isn鈥檛 it?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Huge.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Friendship is massive. And another friend, who probably hasn鈥檛 carried you up the stairs, maybe he has, Daniel Radcliffe.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I bet he has.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Do you think he has?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I bet he has.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 He鈥檚 helped me in and out of bed before, absolutely, yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檝e been friends all the way through, haven鈥檛 you? Like we see you in the documentary in hospital and he鈥檚 shoving marshmallows in his mouth. Tell us about that friendship?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, it built from the early days. I was Dan鈥檚 PE teacher throughout the Potter films. So, he would come to me in the stunt stores, we would lock up the doors and I would let him play. We would jump off a portacabin, swing swords around, we would bounce on the trampoline 鈥� all the things that would make an insurance company pass out with worry well, I made sure that we created an environment that he could still just be a kid and jump around.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檝e said it, we鈥檝e sort of touched on it already, but you say you鈥檝e got an almost allergic reaction to anything that brings you any kind of negative vibes or energy or whatever. What are the sorts of things that make you step back from, recoil from?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 I am constantly going through the changes neurologically, which obviously it does put me in bed sometimes. Of the last 14 and a half years with my paralysis I鈥檝e spent at least one of them in bed. But I鈥檝e learnt, I鈥檝e got my own techniques of getting through that, and one of those things is watching films. Nothing is the same after you break your neck; it affects everything in your life. But what did I do after my accident? I watched a film straightaway.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 What was the film you watched?

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 It was Death Race with Jason Statham.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I love a bit of Statham.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 I know. I just wanted to watch a stunt film, you know, and I was like there鈥檚 going to be a lot of stunts in that, so yeah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Just very quickly, what鈥檚 next for you, Dave? You鈥檝e got your podcast.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, we鈥檝e created this project. I鈥檓 not watching it yet, but I鈥檝e got my reasons for that. I鈥檓 not a person that likes to look back. But I hope that we represent the stunt industry right, that we include disability inclusion right, and that I come across as not someone that鈥檚 just with a disability but someone that can be past that. There are so many times that disability is represented in film, TV programmes in a negative way. And hopefully people can see that even though I live with a disability there鈥檚 a person behind it.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh my goodness, David, honestly you are everything.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much David.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 even think about it with you. You鈥檙e amazing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I love that you did say triumph over adversity once in the film, but it felt like you鈥檇 been asked to say it.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, stop kissing my backside, you鈥檙e wasting the time, I can鈥檛 feel it [laughter].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Right, goodbye, goodbye.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you ladies. I really appreciate your time.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And you look really good as well. You look really good.

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听 I hope life鈥檚 kind to you both. I鈥檒l see you soon.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 David Holmes and Daniel Radcliffe鈥檚 documentary, The Boy Who Lived, is available from Sky Documentaries and streaming service now from the 18th November.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 a hot topic for so many people: benefits and benefits changes. The 大象传媒 has learnt that the government is planning large benefit changes for people who are unable to work due to health conditions. Michael Buchanan, the 大象传媒鈥檚 social affairs correspondent, is one of the journalists to break the story and can fill us in. Hello Michael.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 How鈥檚 it going?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Good, yes. This relates to plans to scrap the work capability assessment which assesses how your disability or illness limits your capability to work and gives you additional benefits. What have you found out?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 So, if you look at the system today as opposed to the system that they are proposing, so at the moment if somebody has an illness that limits what they can do they go through the work capability assessment which tests the extent to which that is possible to be defined. And then one of the categories that they can be found to be in is that they have no need to work and they are given additional benefit on top of that of 拢390 a month. What the proposals are for new claimants from 2025 is that effectively that category of not having to look for work and not having to work, and getting additional benefit, that that category will disappear. And so what will happen effectively is that people who get PIP, personal independence payment, that will become in some ways the gateway to getting the health element on universal credit. So, if you get PIP there鈥檒l be a higher likelihood that you will also get the health element too. If you don鈥檛 get PIP it鈥檚 going to be quite difficult for you to get the health element, that extra benefit.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, that鈥檚 interesting because lots of people who might have been in the group that鈥檚 disappearing may not have had PIP for whatever reason, but I mean obviously you can get PIP and not get that health element. So, there must be still going to have to be some sort of assessment for people who have applied for PIP and then who can鈥檛 then work. But we don鈥檛 know the details of that yet.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 We don鈥檛 know the details of that. The government in summer published some data analysis which showed that there were just over 500,000 people who get a sickness related benefit but do not get PIP. So, that鈥檚 the category or the numbers of people that could be affected. It will be new claimants from 2025. And the government鈥檚 view effectively is that the work capability assessment, which has been controversial forever, is too binary, that it either puts people into a category where they can work or it finds that they can鈥檛 work. And the government believes that there are some people in the middle that effectively do want to work and that can work. And they believe for instance the move in recent years, because of the pandemic, for working from home that that gives even more people an opportunity who perhaps can鈥檛 travel to go to work but can contribute to an employer by working from their own houses.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, going back to the people who would be affected by these changes, if the work capability assessment is gone who will be responsible for deciding who is able to work and who isn鈥檛?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 By and large it will be work coaches in Job Centres. There will be an awful lot of responsibility put on them and they will have an awful lot of discretion. Effectively what will happen is that a lot of people will have to have a conversation with their work coaches. Their work coaches will decide how much work they have to do or how much effort they have to do to find a job. And the work coaches could decide that if the person isn鈥檛 putting in enough effort or the right type of effort that they could have their benefits sanctioned. And that is obviously something that doesn鈥檛 happen at the moment, either with the health element and for those people who are deemed to not have to work at all.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, who are these coaches? How high up the tree are they? What are they doing just now? Will this change their job lot? Who are they?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 People who work in Job Centres around the country. Lots and lots of people who are unemployed or working a small number of hours at the moment will have had interactions with them. They are people who work in Job Centres that effectively try and help people into work. They鈥檝e got a bit of discretion as to what they can do. They can send people on courses, such as interview courses, they can do CV writing, if they鈥檝e got trouble accessing the internet they can give them some digital access, that kind of thing as well.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Why has this come about now? Why have these changes suddenly been pushed very quickly?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Well, there are two views of this. One is that the work capability assessment has been controversial for a long time and that many people have campaigned to get rid of it, believing that it doesn鈥檛 recognise the conditions that people are suffering with. But the second view of it all is that it is quite a political move at this particular time, because whilst the government has scored the savings that they intend to make by making these changes, as I said aiming to save 拢4 billion over four years, the details haven鈥檛 been worked out. There鈥檚 legislation that has to be passed through parliament in order to make this happen.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, what is the government saying about all these details that you鈥檝e had in your story today?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Well, they basically say that everything I basically said is pure speculation. And they say that the structural reforms that they鈥檝e set out in the health and disability White Paper will be rolled out gradually, but transitional protection will ensure nobody experiences a financial loss as a result of moving onto the new system. So, like I say, they鈥檙e still working through a lot of these details. But the headline point they鈥檙e making is A, they鈥檙e hoping to save about 拢4 billion over four years and B, that those people who are already on these health benefits will not see any change for a good number of years.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And there鈥檚 a General Election within the next year so could all of this change again?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Everything could change, you鈥檙e absolutely right. The Labour party isn鈥檛 clear on what it鈥檚 going to do in this area at all. A lot of this will require legislation, so even if the Conservative party remains in government the make-up and the composition of the government may well change. It may not be able to get this through parliament either. The bill wasn鈥檛 in the speech that the government unveiled last week, which means that it will need to fight for parliamentary time. And, as I say, that鈥檚 part of the criticism is that the government are scoring the savings at the moment without figuring out the exact details and proposing the legislation that will actually enact it all.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Michael Buchanan, thank you very much.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 More than 50,000 were detained under the Mental Health Act last year, but hopes that the 40 year-old Act would be updated were dashed last week when government failed to include it in the King鈥檚 Speech at the state opening of parliament where it lists its priorities for the year. The Mental Health Act 1983 sets out when you can be detained for treatment against your will. Campaigners wanted to see a tightening of the criteria for detention to prevent autistic people and those with learning disabilities from being detained. It also wanted to address concerns that black people are four times more likely to be detained under the Act. The lack of attention has left a lot of people and organisations very angry. To help us break it down and find out what鈥檚 happening we have Olly Parker, head of external affairs at Young Minds, the mental health charity. Hi Olly, how are you?

OLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 all right, Emma. How are you?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 well, thank you. What was your reaction when you realised that the bill hadn鈥檛 been mentioned in the King鈥檚 Speech?

OLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It was a disappointment but it wasn鈥檛 a surprise. There鈥檚 a bit of an old saying in politics is silence says a lot. And after a draft bill for the Mental Health Act was published last year, and after years of hard work by campaigners and activists, things had just gone silent. The government makes a lot of statements about mental health. It certainly is not an issue it does nothing about. But is it enough of a priority compared to the numbers of people we see that need help? And my personal feeling is the answer鈥檚 no.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, what were the key reforms that you were keen to see?

OLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听 For people who are really at the sharp end of our mental health system, I need to really underline this, these are people who are struggling day to day, people who, as you say, can鈥檛 work, who really aren鈥檛 playing much of a role in society. And it鈥檚 really an understatement to say that for them this Act would have been life-changing. It would have strengthened some of their advocacy rights. It would have made much, much clearer who can and can鈥檛 speak on behalf of them and put some clarity in those situations. And as you said yourself, this is a 40 year-old Act. When you think about how our understanding of mental health and how our understanding of other conditions like autism and learning disability has advanced over the last 40 years, everybody said that this Act really needs updating. So, essentially under the Act someone with autism is classed as having a mental health condition and can be sectioned for their autism under the Act. Now, that鈥檚 clearly outdated and completely wrong.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Why do you think it hasn鈥檛 been mentioned?

OLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 a really, really hard question to answer, isn鈥檛 it? You always try and see things from the other point of view, but from my point of view the hard work on this Act had been done, the draft bill was published, there have been endless consultations. Was everyone happy with it? No, of course not. But there was a level of parliamentary scrutiny to go where people who were interested could have worked and put their views forward, and then we could have got it on the statute books. And even at this stage, because it is so old, even an imperfect Act is better than no Act at all.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Because as you say, it has been a long time coming. It started in 2018 with an independent review of the Act, which was followed by a White Paper in 2021, and then a final parliamentary joint committee report earlier this year. Its lack of inclusion in the speech means that the legislation will not be put through before the next General Election, which must happen by January 2025. What has the reaction been, Olly, from your clients, the people you work with, young people, children, their families? What has the reaction been?

OLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听 They鈥檙e split into two camps. So, on the one hand you鈥檝e got people who, as I鈥檝e been saying, are really, really acutely affected by it; this bill would have been lifechanging for them. But there鈥檚 a second group as well of young people who really, really care about mental health, who maybe aren鈥檛 at the point where they鈥檙e going to be committed or maybe even referred to types of lower down care, but they鈥檙e very aware of their mental health, of the struggles they have, of the struggles that their friends and classmates have. And they really, really care about this as a political issue. And there was some polling done recently by Rethink that shows that for young people this is the fourth most important issue that they will vote on. And what they鈥檙e not seeing from government is any particular action or progress on young people鈥檚 mental health. And the government is deciding not to take it forward because of a lack of time.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 The day after the speech Steve Barclay, the then secretary of state for health and social care, faced Justin Webb on Radio 4鈥檚 Today programme to explain why mental health hadn鈥檛 made the cut:

[Clip]

STEVE-听听听听听听听听听听 We always said we鈥檒l bring that forward when there鈥檚 time, but we have a major health鈥�

JUSTIN-听听听听听听听听听 But obviously there is time.

STEVE-听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�bill in, the, well there is a major health bill in the King鈥檚 Speech which is the work we鈥檙e doing to tackle smoking.

JUSTIN-听听听听听听听听听 Are you really saying there was no time for the Mental Health Act? Because I think what a lot of people, particularly those who are involved with people with autism and learning disabilities who are, as you know, held often in mental health units in really terrible circumstances, they were hoping that you would do this. Isn鈥檛 it a fact that Labour would have supported it, and you鈥檙e not interested in the moment in doing things that have broad support? You want to do things that separate yourselves from Labour. In other words this thing that so many people in the mental health world believed was hugely important and that you as a government accepted was important suddenly doesn鈥檛 matter anymore because there鈥檚 an election?听

STEVE-听听听听听听听听听听 Quite the opposite. The flagship health measure of the King鈥檚 Speech is one that has鈥�

[End of clip]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 He did go on to talk about smoking and general health at the end of that interview. And we know that placing mental health on the same plane as physical health, otherwise known as parity of esteem, which is what a lot of people in the business call it, that鈥檚 a long-held ambition. Why has mental health not caught up with physical health?

OLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think a number of reasons. Some of them are cultural and in terms of the stigma around mental health and the stigma of talking about our mental health. So, I think that鈥檚 a big part of it. And I think as a society, and I鈥檇 include government in this, we have made a lot of progress around stigma and learning to talk more and be open and share more of our feelings. But the money and the time often goes where the burning political issues are. And very often that is things such as accident and emergency. Now, they play a role in mental health and I wouldn鈥檛 want to take funding away from accident and emergency to give it to someone else because it鈥檚 not a zero sum game. But because the NHS has struggled with funding for a number of years now I think that what we鈥檙e seeing is some of these real hot button political issues like A&E are the ones that rise to the top and it鈥檚 where the money and the time goes, rather than more complex bitty things like mental health.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 If you had put this bill in the King鈥檚 Speech and it had got to the end of the parliamentary term there is a wash-up period where governments in opposition can meet and put through bills that are uncontentious very, very quickly through the parliamentary process. Because they accept that although this might need amending later on it鈥檚 better to have something on the statute book that鈥檚 imperfect than nothing at all. And I would argue that the Mental Health Act is one of those issues.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Does it give us time to perfect it, make it a better bill?

OLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听 That is true. I mean, parliamentary time would have allowed us to perfect it and make it a better bill. And obviously we should aim for perfection, but will we obtain it, we don鈥檛 know. But there are certainly things within the bill such as strengthening advocacy rights and being very, very clear about young people especially the types of advocacy and the types of people that can advocate for them if they鈥檙e more complex cases. I think those are things that with parliamentary time and more scrutiny we could see strengthened in the bill.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Will there be a government U-turn on that do you think?

OLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I personally find it hard to see. Now, it is worth saying the King鈥檚 Speech is an indication of what鈥檚 going to come in the next year, so there is room. Steve Barclay, Rishi Sunak could come back together and decide actually this is really important and we can take it through. And I would urge them to make that call.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Olly Parker thank you so much for speaking to me.

OLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you Emma.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And that鈥檚 your lot. If you like what you hear please subscribe to us on 大象传媒 Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. We love to see it. Your feedback is our superpower, so give us a shout on email accessall@bbc.co.uk, X @大象传媒AccessAll or on WhatsApp on 0330 123 9480, putting Access at the start of your message. Catch you soon. Bye.

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