大象传媒

18 December 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 83

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Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

听

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Not so long ago you were talking about decorating your house, were you not?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Yes I was, and I was saying that I was going to get some help.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. And like a child I got very excited about the fact that you as a blind woman, I鈥檓 sure you don鈥檛 mind me saying because my goodness you certainly say it yourself.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Yeah, it鈥檚 okay, I don鈥檛 mind you talking about my being blind.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I know you don鈥檛. I know you don鈥檛. But you actually did do it, didn鈥檛 you, and you sent me some pictures or you sent us some pictures on our WhatsApp group. And this is by no means a criticism, Emma, but I really like the way the star is slightly on the wonk.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 just slightly on the wonk. But I like it, I think it adds character.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 basically me, it鈥檚 basically a-

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Well I think it鈥檚 because your ceilings are so, well actually I was going to say high, and this is quite a big tree actually.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 But can I just say that actually my favourite bit of the decor that you don鈥檛 have pictures of, is I think I鈥檝e finally settled into the fact I鈥檓 blind, it鈥檚 my house, and if I鈥檓 going to decorate it for Christmas I should get something out of it. 41, I am, and I think this is the first year I鈥檝e actually said to myself, 鈥淭his is for me too, this is not just for everybody else.鈥�

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Why on earth would you not think that at all?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Well I鈥檒l tell you why. Because actually generally it doesn鈥檛 make much difference to me because the trees aren鈥檛 on all the time, but I can see light, and I don鈥檛 tend to put in any smelly things really. But this year I鈥檝e gone around and I鈥檝e got loads of battery candles and tealights and I鈥檝e got lanterns and little different ornaments, and I鈥檝e put them in them so when you turn off the lights there鈥檚 lots of different little Christmas twinkly lights that I can see. I really like that and I really like going round and turning them on and off, on at the beginning of the evening and off at night. I feel like I can see them and it鈥檚 nice and it鈥檚 Christmassy, and when people come in it looks Christmassy with all the little twinkly lights in various parts of the house.

But also, and honestly we don鈥檛 ever use scented candles or diffusers in our house for some reason, we will be now, but I鈥檝e put in a few Christmas reed diffusers. One of them smells like Christmas and one of them smells a bit sort of fresher. But isn鈥檛 it amazing how I feel like I鈥檓 still growing into my blindy skin?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Ems, you think about things a lot deeper than I do.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Well it just occurred to me when I was putting the diffusers in for the first time, I was like, 鈥楬ow am I doing this for the first time?鈥� I just hadn鈥檛 thought of reed diffusers. And now I have, I鈥檓 probably going to get addicted to them.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I still don鈥檛 know what that鈥檚 got to do with you being blind?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 When you walk into the house you see all the decorations up.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Got ya.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 When I walk into the house I smell Christmas.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Got you.听 I understand.听 Okay, yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 the same with the real tree, I would know there鈥檚 a Christmas tree there if there鈥檚 a real tree. I wouldn鈥檛 know if there isn鈥檛 a real tree.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 You find out all sorts, don鈥檛 you? It鈥檚 amazing you still find out new stuff even in your 40s, don鈥檛 you, eh?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 know how to wrap a present.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 You don鈥檛 know how to wrap a present.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 No.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e not missing anything, it鈥檚 painful and you鈥檒l cut your finger.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I know, but I feel like I should.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Listen Emma, that鈥檚 where I鈥檒l say I could probably wrap a present, maybe just, but I鈥檓 like, 鈥淪orry guys, too disabled, could you do it for me.鈥� Quite literally that鈥檚 where-

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 the excuse I鈥檝e used. And then I saw a blinkin鈥� Instagram video of a blinkin鈥� blind woman wrapping a present!

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 No, no, no, that鈥檚 when you come out with, 鈥淓veryone鈥檚 different. Just because we鈥檙e disabled, doesn鈥檛 mean we鈥檙e the same.鈥澨� Use everything to avoid wrapping, it鈥檚 horrible.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 But can we stop these blind people coming out and doing stuff that I have told everybody for my whole life that it鈥檚 not easy for me to do.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I鈥檇 say the same about wheelchair dancers, can you just back off a little bit, dial it down, because you are making ole pigeon shouldered Nikki Fox here look useless. I mean stop flipping in the chair!听 I鈥檓 pressing a lever.听 Please.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听 Theme music

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 the show before Christmas, everyone. We are Access All from the 大象传媒, a podcast all about disability and mental health, but so much more. I鈥檓 Nikki Fox, in London鈥檚 West End. That sounds glitzy, doesn鈥檛 it?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 It does. I鈥檓 in a much more serious place, I鈥檓 in Edinburgh near where the Scottish Parliament sits in a little cosy studio.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Ooh la-la. This week Radio 3鈥檚 Hannah French is here. She鈥檚 going to be spinning the Christmas tunes on 大象传媒 Radio over the holidays. There is a disability link as well, of course there is, there always is, isn鈥檛 there?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Of course there is.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 So staying listening to that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Plus, there鈥檚 a new disability minister, but they鈥檝e downgraded the role. What sort of difference will that make? I鈥檒l be finding out.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 And there鈥檚 more. Open up your 大象传媒 Sounds app or whatever podcast app you use, find Access All and click 鈥渟ubscribe鈥� so we are in your phone forever.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 And ever, ever, and ever, ever.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听 Music

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I mean I think it鈥檚 been a really good year actually in terms of making progress on this really important agenda, and it鈥檚 really terrific to be here talking to you about the work we鈥檙e doing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 That was the former Disability Minister, Tom Pursglove, on the podcast a few weeks ago. It鈥檚 a job that represents 16 million disabled people across the UK. But last week, the government announced that it was downgrading the job of minister for disabled people to a lower rank. Also, it鈥檒l be absorbed into someone else鈥檚 brief and only be a part of their job. That someone is Mims Davies.

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听 All these figures are people鈥檚 livelihoods, their communities, and they鈥檝e had a really-

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 An online petition was set up within hours of the announcement to get it reinstated, and signatures were around about the 4,000 mark at time of recording on Monday morning. So what does this mean? I鈥檝e got James Taylor, Director of Strategy at disability charity Scope, with me now. James, Scope are not happy. Can you sum up the situation for me?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听 Cut back to the start of last week, the government said we will be announcing someone. There were then rumours that this role was either going to disappear or it was going to be merged with another role. Consequently on Friday the government announced that Mims Davies, who is already in the DWP as a Minister for Social Mobility, was also going to be taking on the disability health and work brief. So we now have someone who鈥檚 picked up the disability remit, however they鈥檙e also covering their existing remit of social mobility. And it鈥檚 a parliamentary undersecretary of state, which is a bit mealy mouthy and wordy, but it鈥檚 a role that鈥檚 below the minister level. So we鈥檝e got a more junior role and a role that鈥檚 split between two areas of government and two areas of government policy.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e frustrated that the existing level hasn鈥檛 been maintained, and we鈥檙e frustrated that it took so long for the government to announce one in the first place.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And is it important the difference in level? Is there a difference in how you get to deal with an undersecretary of state and how you get to deal with a minister of state, which is what Tom Pursglove was?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听 I think day-to-day probably not. However, it does send a message that perhaps disabled people are not as important. The more pressing thing is that the role has been split in two, with Mims Davies being able to continue her existing portfolio whilst also taking on disability, health and work, which to us feels like disability is going to become even less of a priority for this government.

It鈥檚 really concerning when we had big changes to the work capability assessment announced last month in the Budget, we鈥檝e got a huge economic inactivity challenge that the government wants to deal with, and of course we鈥檝e got extra costs that are rising through the winter. So to have a role in government that鈥檚 possibly only doing this job half the time, is more concerning than probably what level they are.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Were you surprised that the government did this?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e been at Scope for six years and I鈥檝e worked with seven ministers for disabled people. It鈥檚 certainly not a role that I don鈥檛 think the government puts too much attention on, which is really disappointing considering we鈥檙e 16 million people strong, 25% of the UK population, that this such a lowly role. Ideally you鈥檇 want a beefed up secretary of state or something like that who sits across government and really looks to embed disability in every sort of policy and strategy and action that the government has. However, it isn鈥檛.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, I think we鈥檙e disappointed. We鈥檇 like to see the role reinstated to at least a minister level. Reinstated to purely a minister focusing on disability, health and work, rather than something else as well.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Would you like it to actually come out of the DWP and be across all areas, is that what you鈥檙e saying?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听 Well I think that鈥檚 an argument some people and some commentaries have made. I think in the long-term probably, because disability policy isn鈥檛 just about benefits, it isn鈥檛 just about welfare. As you鈥檝e covered really eloquently on the podcast for the last couple of years, it鈥檚 about transport, it鈥檚 about civic life, it鈥檚 about being able to take part in society, being part of your local community, housing. That effectively you鈥檇 probably want a role sitting in the centre of government somewhere that鈥檚 really pushing government departments to think about disabled people and disability policy.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 James Taylor, Director of Strategy at Scope, thank you very much.

JINGLE-听听听听听听听 Music

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Let鈥檚 turn now to Caroline Nokes. She鈥檚 a Conservative MP and currently the Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, so someone who has a lot to say about diversity in all its forms. I spoke with her earlier to get her thoughts on the downgrading of the role of minster for disabled people. Caroline, did you have any idea that this downgrading was happening?

CAROLINE-听 My committee asked Kemi Badenoch, who is the Minister for Women and Equalities, on I believe it was Wednesday afternoon what was happening with the position of minister for disabled people. There was no clear answer at that point. And on Thursday morning we were very concerned that it looked like there was going to be no minister at all specifically for disabled people, which caused a huge amount of concern.

I have to say, I鈥檓 pleased with the appointment of Mims Davies, I think she will be a fantastic champion, but it would have been helpful if there had been more clarity.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 But it has been downgraded from minister to undersecretary of state. 听Why do you think that鈥檚 happened?

CAROLINE-听 Well I suspect that that鈥檚 more to do with government finances than anything else and the need to the keep the ministerial salary budget within range. Mims is a very experienced minister, I think she鈥檒l be great in the role. I also think that she should be a minister of state. But if that鈥檚 not going to happen, what we need to see if that the Government Equalities Office, that the DWP, and indeed every department across government, coordinates closely to making sure that disabled people鈥檚 lives get better.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Do you think disabled people are going to lose out by the fact that the brief has been differently allocated to an undersecretary and as part of a portfolio, rather than someone鈥檚 whole portfolio?

CAROLINE-听 I don鈥檛 think disabled people are going to lose out, I think Mims is going to be working incredibly hard.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Do you think disabled people aren鈥檛 being taken seriously? Like would this happen in another department, that it would be downgraded and given to a person as part of their brief rather than as their whole brief?

CAROLINE-听 It鈥檚 important to reflect that the minister for disabled people was a parliamentary undersecretary role from 1997 to 2010. Over the last 13 years it鈥檚 been very mixed. I don鈥檛 think we should be hung up on the job title, I think that that is broadly irrelevant whether they鈥檙e an MoS or a PUS. I think what matters is that you have somebody who is determined to speak up for disabled people. 听I think we鈥檝e got that in Mims.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 So we鈥檝e heard from a Tory MP about her thoughts on the government鈥檚 decision, but what do the opposition Labour Party, who crucially might soon be in power, think about what鈥檚 going on? I spoke to Vicky Foxcroft, Shadow Minister for Disabled People. Vicky Foxcroft, what was your reaction when you saw this unfold and you saw the final decision on minister for disabled people?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听 I spent the whole week chasing the government to find out who they were going to be appointing as the minister. Then there were rumours and speculation that they weren鈥檛 going to be appointing anybody, they were just going to tag it on to somebody鈥檚 job. Eventually they did appoint somebody, and originally I felt quite relieved, but then I realised they鈥檇 actually demoted the role. They鈥檝e done this before in the past and it seems that they鈥檙e trying to do it again, and so we just need to keep the pressure on them to say this is a really important role and we are not happy with them seeking to go and demote it. It should be a minister of state, not the parliamentary undersecretary.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 But Caroline Nokes has just told me that it doesn鈥檛 really matter whether the role is a minister of state or an undersecretary. What鈥檚 your take on that?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听 Well speak to disabled people, what do they think? Do they think that it doesn鈥檛 matter that the role鈥檚 deemed to be a less important role? 听I don鈥檛 think that that is the case, no.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 But what makes it lesser in practical terms? Like in terms of being in government and being an undersecretary or a minister of state what makes it a lesser? Will less get done when it鈥檚 in this role than in a minister of state?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 about the authority, isn鈥檛 it, and where the position is deemed to be. The minister of state makes it the second in the DWP team, and the parliamentary undersecretary doesn鈥檛. I鈥檓 not doubting that the minister will work hard, but it鈥檚 about where it鈥檚 seen in terms of the prioritisation and where it鈥檚 seen in terms of the status.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 What would Labour do if you were in government, would you have a minister for disabled people, minister of state?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听 Yeah, of course. 听Of course.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Alright Vicky Foxcroft, thank you so much for speaking to me. We asked the government about the remit of the new disability minister and they said, 鈥淢inisterial portfolios will be confirmed in the usual way in due course.鈥� By which, they mean that it鈥檒l be posted on a particular website. 鈥淭he government will continue its work to support and champion disabled people, as evidenced by our strong track record and our multi-billion pound support plans announced at the Autumn Statement, to help millions more disabled people get into and stay in work.鈥�

JINGLE-听听听听听听听 Access All

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 You know this earlier in the week podcast business?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e been waking up really early the day of the podcast. I was awake at 4.00 am this morning.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 4.00 am?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And I get up at six and my waking cycle, do you know when you wake up in the middle of the night I always stay awake for the same rough amount of time, and it鈥檚 usually two hours, so if I wake up at 4.00 am that鈥檚 it, if I鈥檓 getting up at six I might as well just forget it.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 So what did you do?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I lay there 鈥榯il 6.00 am, obviously.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Did you?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Well I did worrying and planning and making lists, and you know listening to other people sleep.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Was your hubby asleep?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I think so. He says he was awake, but the sounds he was making makes me think he was asleep.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I love that when you鈥檙e awake and you say, 鈥淒id you sleep?鈥�, 鈥淣o, I didn鈥檛 sleep all night,鈥� but they were snoring.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Yeah! [Laughs] What about you, did you sleep last night?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Ahh, I don鈥檛 sleep, it鈥檚 not my friend at the moment, Em. I鈥檝e always been able to sleep, I鈥檓 known for sitting down at the end of the day and if I shut my eyes for more than two seconds I鈥檒l be out like a light.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Really?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Snoring like a wild animal. 听Yeah, like a light.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Even sitting, so not even in bed?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 No, no. I鈥檓 going to tell you something that I really shouldn鈥檛 admit. You know I do Watchdog, don鈥檛 you?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Yes.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 We film Watchdog on a Friday when I鈥檓 not on news, and we did a story not long ago and during an interview with an expert I fell asleep for one minute and 38 seconds.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Were you with the person?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 He was right in front of me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And how do you know how long you slept for?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I was sat on my scooter. Because they filmed it, the camera was on my face.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Oh my god!

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 They watched it back and that鈥檚 how long I was out for.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And he or they just spoke?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Carried on and gave his answer. Apparently the producer/ director, lovely guy, he said, 鈥淵ou asked a question that made absolutely no sense because you were just about to fall asleep, and then he gave you his answer and spoke for ages, and you were out through the whole thing.鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 That sounds really serious that you would fall asleep in the middle of an interview, like you鈥檙e obviously not sleeping.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I was sat down. Well the thing is I鈥檝e always known, Ems, I鈥檝e got sleep apnoea. 听I think I probably bored you with it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 where you hold your breath in the night?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, that鈥檚 right. And I thought, 鈥業 better get something done because you can鈥檛 be falling asleep, Foxy, during an interview, it鈥檚 just not professional. Get your appointment sorted.鈥� So I got a referral, did an overnight sleep study, and then went to the appointment not long ago thinking it鈥檒l just be a little catch-up, and I was there for quite a few hours and they said that I have chronic obstructive sleep apnoea and I stop breathing for about 70-80 times an hour during the night. 听An hour!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Basically they should have really said how many times you breathed in an hour because that would have been maybe less or whatever!

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e always thought yes I am tired during the day, but I always thought I sleep really well because I do sleep really well, but I鈥檝e always had a headache every morning. All the signs, you know, out like a light in the evening, that kind of stuff.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 So you fall asleep really quick.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I fall asleep really quick as well, and I鈥檓 such an anxious person that I think anxiety is often linked with not sleeping. I鈥檝e found out from this podcast, I think, that your brain鈥檚 so active during the day...

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 You actually tire yourself out.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 ... that you tire yourself out so much that you fall asleep straightaway.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Basically you鈥檝e been sleeping but not resting.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, that鈥檚 it, exactly. And not getting the right kind of sleep. I probably should have got it sorted a bit sooner. Anyway, they gave me a CPAP machine. I鈥檓 sure maybe some of our listeners have got a CPAP, and if you have, anyone if you鈥檝e got any tips please let me know, because I鈥檓 trying to use it but I鈥檓 not getting much sleep at nighttime, because it鈥檚 a mask that goes over your nose and your mouth. I鈥檓 not a claustrophobic person but it makes me feel a little claustrophobic, and it鈥檚 got a big tube that comes out of your head. It鈥檚 just quite tricky to sleep in.

I鈥檓 sort of averaging between maybe three and five hours. I did get a record six actually. Because it tells you when you stop the machine how many hours you鈥檝e had.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I spoke to you the day you had a six, you were like top of the world.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 You said I sounded really perky, didn鈥檛 you?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I did. You just sounded like a different person. I mean you鈥檙e always perky, but you sounded particularly ...

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Perky.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 ... perky. Perky!

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I got five hours last night so it wasn鈥檛 a record six but it wasn鈥檛 bad. The mask is really sore, because if you don鈥檛 do it tight enough the air escapes, and it鈥檚 like you get a sad face on the machine 鈥渋t鈥檚 not good enough,鈥� so you tie it tighter and then it hurts your face. 听But yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I could talk to you all day about your sleep.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 If we were married, you would be glad that I have this CPAP, Ems, because it muffles my snoring. Because before the CPAP I snored like a wild animal.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 So now do you just sound like you鈥檙e snoring into a cup?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 actually snore, I don鈥檛 make the noise now. Snoring into a cup, that鈥檚 a great description!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 so tight to your face that it doesn鈥檛 sort of-

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. And it鈥檚 pumping the oxygen down, so it鈥檚 opening up the airways I think, Ems.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 What happens if you do stop breathing, what does the machine do?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 It knows that you鈥檝e stopped breathing because it鈥檚 very responsive, and it basically wallops a load of air down you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Ooof.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I know! 听It鈥檚 like you鈥檙e being waterboarded but with air.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] Is it a weird... does it-?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 It wakes you up.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 What鈥檚 the point in that? It鈥檚 supposed to keep you asleep.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I know, exactly. Exactly. This is why I鈥檝e called it a rude word, which I won鈥檛 say, but I鈥檓 sure you listeners can guess how I鈥檝e changed CPAP, I鈥檝e just double C鈥檇 it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 trying to think of something that鈥檚 not a rude word.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 know, a CTRAP?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 not my friend at the moment. Yeah, it does, it like wallops air down you and you鈥檙e like [breathes quickly].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 A bit scary. 听Do you have nightmares now and little flashbacks?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I haven鈥檛 dreamt since I鈥檝e been using it actually.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Really?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 No.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 The dreams are going to be really weird, I鈥檇 say, if you do start dreaming.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e not had one. 听Is this like what normal sleep is?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Oh my god, this is one of the top questions for blind people is do you see in your dreams? 听Do you dream on your CPAP?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Why would I? 听Where would you? 听What? 听Hey?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Because you said you haven鈥檛 dreamed with your CPAP on.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 But you said one of the top questions for blind people. Is that what you ask other people?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 No, that鈥檚 what other people ask me, do you see in your dreams?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Why do they ask you that?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Because the taxi drivers are like people who don鈥檛 know me and they just think it鈥檚 a fun question to ask.听听听听听

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I just presume that you would.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Are your children blind? 听Can you see in your dreams?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, okay.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Did you have children to look after you? Have you always been blind?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 We know you did, Ems, I mean come on! [Laughs]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] Is there nothing they can do for you? There鈥檚 a lot of stuff out there nowadays. These are just the questions, so I just wondered if people dream on their CPAP?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I haven鈥檛 had one yet.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Could you let us know, 0330 1239480, accessall@bbc.co.uk

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, tell me what to expect. Will I ever dream again? I used to like my dreams because I used to create whole dance routines in my dreams and everything. I mean I鈥檓 disabled, I鈥檇 like to dream if that鈥檚 alright, people.

JINGLE-听听听听听听听 Access All

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听 Christmas music

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Music is one of the key things, isn鈥檛 it, that makes us feel festive, and one of the people with the responsibility of delivering that music to us this Christmas and New Year, is Doctor Hannah French. Hannah presents the New Year鈥檚 Day breakfast programme on 大象传媒 Radio 3, which is a classical station, and this year we鈥檒l have her on Christmas Day morning as well. It鈥檚 absolutely lovely to have Doctor Hannah French here with me for a chat. 听Hi, Hannah.

HANNAH-听听听听 Hi. 听Thanks for having me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Oh, no worries. Is it a big responsibility bringing music to people on these very festive mornings?

HANNAH-听听听听 It is. It feels like a really personal thing, doesn鈥檛 it? I鈥檝e not done Christmas Day before and I鈥檓 really looking forward to that. I suspect on Christmas Day morning, if people are listening to the radio, they鈥檙e chopping vegetables or hiding from their children or other family members just having a little moment, maybe they鈥檙e in the bathroom just prolonging their shower for two minutes. [Laughs] It鈥檚 just a real kind of point of creating a mood for the morning, a soundtrack for the morning. Yeah, it鈥檚 a real privilege to spend it with people, isn鈥檛 it, on Christmas Day.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And is it live?

HANNAH-听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Wow!

HANNAH-听听听听 I said I鈥檇 only do it if Santa was coming to Broadcasting House, so I鈥檝e got high hopes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Oh wow, I hope he does. I wonder where he鈥檇 come in? The big revolving door maybe? I don鈥檛 know. Oh, that鈥檚 lovely. So you鈥檒l be one of the only people in new Broadcasting House, our big office in central London, on Christmas Day.

HANNAH-听听听听 That鈥檚 right. I鈥檓 hoping for a really clear run in, only reindeer on the roads.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 You have a Doctor of Music and you鈥檙e interested in early music, and you鈥檙e flautist as well. For someone like me who鈥檚 not well versed in classical music, what does all of that mean?

HANNAH-听听听听 Yeah, I am a Doctor of Music. I don鈥檛 often talk about that to be honest. But I did at one point study very hard. I specialised in the Proms, what鈥檚 now the 大象传媒 Proms, but with their founder conductor, Henry Wood, and how he introduced the music of Johann Sebastian Bach to England, to London, and then actually around the country as well. So we鈥檙e talking about things like the Brandenburg Concertos and the Orchestral suites.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听 Classical Music

HANNAH-听听听听 He was really important in spreading the word and making Bach seem like a popular composer. Because if you鈥檝e heard of Johann Sebastian Bach, you鈥檝e probably got an image in your mind of an old man in a big wig, and perhaps you know he was an organist, and he used to have a reputation for having very dry, dusty, complicated music. But actually it couldn鈥檛 be further away from the truth. I do do that. What else was I supposed to do? 听Play the flute.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Did you play the flute at one point maybe?

HANNAH-听听听听 I did. I was a professional flautist for many years. Yeah, I studied at the Royal Academy of Music as a post-grad and I loved playing the flute. I specialised in reproductions of 18th Century instruments, so wooden flutes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Right, wow!

HANNAH-听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Ooh, exciting. So you got to play all the sort of odd flutes and different ones that people aren鈥檛 used to.

HANNAH-听听听听 Yes, exactly. [Laughs] Exactly that. They have a different sound and a sound that I really love, it鈥檚 a kind of wooden, as you鈥檇 expect, but a real mellow sound.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听 Flute

HANNAH-听听听听 They鈥檙e almost folky in some ways, the keys are not quite like modern flutes and the brilliance of a modern flute, but you find all sorts of really slinky moves within them. And I love doing that, and I did that for many years.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I love it, slinky moves!

HANNAH-听听听听 [Laughs] The baroque flute, the slinky mover.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e so, so, so passionate, but you don鈥檛 play the flute anymore. I think in radio, because it鈥檚 all about voice and personality, a lot of people probably won鈥檛 know or wouldn鈥檛 have known until you made your documentary, which we鈥檒l talk about in a minute, but won鈥檛 know that you are a disabled person and a wheelchair user and have pain.

HANNAH-听听听听 That鈥檚 right. I started using a wheelchair in 2009, so it鈥檚 not a new thing and I鈥檓 very, very used to it. My wheels are my wings, which I think probably lots of wheelchair users say. But yeah, I tried to carry on playing the flute from my chair, and to start with it wasn鈥檛 a clean break, I didn鈥檛 have an accident, there wasn鈥檛 a real strict cut-off point, and so I tried to carry on playing and using stools and crutches and makeshift solutions.

Unfortunately the pain that I have, I have chronic pain in my left hip. I should probably say I鈥檝e got Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, which is a collagen deficiency, and it means that I dislocate very easily. But not only dislocating, because that does happen, but also a thing called subluxing, so my joints will move out of range and then they will partially come out and then cramp, and then be held slightly out of joint, and that鈥檚 excruciatingly painful. That happens to my whole body from my jaw down to my ankles and my toes. My left hip was really badly affected, and I had a number of operations that didn鈥檛 really work because they were before my diagnosis, and they can鈥檛 be reversed.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Oh, so you were having surgery unsuitable for someone with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome.

HANNAH-听听听听 That鈥檚 it. Yeah, we couldn鈥檛 go back and stitch things back together again. I was left with a lot of pain, and I have dealt with both well and badly over the years. A casualty of that was my flute playing and I鈥檝e had to let that go. Funnily enough, once I had, I mean as I say I tried a number of times, but there were things that... I mean I鈥檝e got some great horror stories about being pushed across fields in wheelbarrows and broken wheelchairs in airports.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 You used to do physio in a double bass case.

HANNAH-听听听听 I did do it in a double bass case once. [Laughs] A very, very kind double bassist after a recording session said, 鈥淲hy don鈥檛 you just get in the double bass case.鈥� It was a soft case, it wasn鈥檛 a hard case, and they were doing Alexander Technique with me and people were helping to get me straight down.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 So you really, really tried. I never really think of the flute and being a flautist as massively physical in terms of needing to stand up all the time. 听Could you not play the flute sitting down?

HANNAH-听听听听 Well you can, and you can play it from a wheelchair. I suspect many people do. But it鈥檚 all on the cross, is the flute, you imagine it out on the side. When you鈥檙e playing, if you鈥檙e just a soloist at the front of the orchestra looking out, that would be fine, but usually in an orchestra you鈥檙e looking round other people or there鈥檚 pillars in a church, all this kind of stuff, and so it puts you at some awkward angles, which obviously you try to avoid anyway.

But as time went on, the more I breathed properly, the worse it got as well, and now when I breathe really well to play the flute properly and use my diaphragm, it catches, and the chronic pain that I have, and I can deal with in many ways in my hip, just ramps up and it gets way worse, and it hurts to breathe, it hurts to play.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 You had to call it a day at some point. Do you still have your flutes?

HANNAH-听听听听 I do.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Do you ever take them out?

HANNAH-听听听听 I get them out, and I think, 鈥極h, maybe it wouldn鈥檛 hurt anymore, maybe I could just,鈥� and then I play for a bit and think, 鈥極h, this sounds awful,鈥� because you know it鈥檚 like a muscle that鈥檚 not been exercised. Then I play a bit longer and think, 鈥極h, do you know what, I could still do this,鈥� and then the pain starts and then it ramps up, and then I think, 鈥業鈥檒l put it away.鈥� Then it鈥檚 really bad for the next kind of six hours or so and I think, 鈥榃hy did I do that? Why did I?鈥� But you鈥檙e right, every now and again I kind of test it, I poke the bruise, just to see if I could.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Yeah, we all do stuff. 听We all do that about things, don鈥檛 we?

HANNAH-听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Luckily I suppose in some ways you have such a passion for musical history, for composers, for their lives, which has led you to being such a prominent presenter on 大象传媒 Radio 3. You made a documentary for Radio 3 after a long time of living with pain and after a long time of being a presenter on Radio 3, called is it The Sound of my Pain?

HANNAH-听听听听 Do you know what, that鈥檚 what it was originally called, and then we changed it to The Silence of My Pain.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 The Silence of My Pain. 听So I鈥檒l say it again.

HANNAH-听听听听 No, no please don鈥檛, that鈥檚 exactly right.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I鈥檒l leave it, okay. But that鈥檚 so interesting, because The Sound of My Pain and The Silence of My Pain, that sounds like two very different things.

HANNAH-听听听听 Two really different shows. And I set out to make one, and I ended up making the other.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Love it. 听They鈥檙e the best, aren鈥檛 they?

HANNAH-听听听听 I鈥檝e been in pain rehab and all sorts of medical situations where clinicians and consultants have said to me, 鈥淵ou should use music to help you, and you should use it for not only your mental health but for CBT exercises, and you should have playlists, you鈥檝e got this amazing resource at your fingertips.鈥� And it fills me with absolute horror, because I think I have a weird relationship with music because I had to stop playing the flute. I think everybody has music that they associate with perhaps the happiest times of their lives and their deepest grief, and associations with places and people, and that鈥檚 fine, but I can鈥檛 bear the thought that I would associate certain pieces of music with pain.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 So tell me, a big part of your presenting is in live performances. We talk a lot on this podcast about access to venues. As an audience member and as a musician what鈥檚 your take on that, have you found them improved, the access to the performance spaces that you go to?

HANNAH-听听听听 I go to lots of very old venues because I present the Early Music Show, so we go to National Trust houses and really old venues. I think when I get to those I have such low expectations because the Tudors didn鈥檛 really think about access and that kind of stuff, that I鈥檓 often really, really pleasantly surprised how we manage to navigate our way around. It鈥檚 not perfect and you can鈥檛 always get to everything, but yeah I鈥檇 say in old venues that is a thing. I think my patience runs out with new venues, because I have high expectations that I鈥檓 going to be able to get around.

I think the other thing with venues is that it鈥檚 quite binary, you鈥檙e either a musician on stage, or you鈥檙e an audience member in the auditorium, and I think that access has massively improved for audiences, and in lots of venues actually it鈥檚 pretty good to get on stage. Whether you can get to a suitable dressing room is a different matter. The issue that I often have is that if you鈥檙e working in production you often have to get between the stage and the auditorium.

I was at a very new concert hall recently and I could get onto the stage brilliantly, there was a dressing room that was fantastic, and I could get into the auditorium, but to get from the stage to the auditorium to then hear what was going on when I鈥檇 finished an interview and I wanted to hear the music, I had to go outside to find somebody with a specific key for a specific lift and round the houses and back round again, and it was really, really clunky.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e doing these Christmas and New Year broadcasts so I have to ask you, Hannah, what are your favourite festive pieces, what鈥檚 your favourite Christmas music?

HANNAH-听听听听 Well, there are lots and lots and lots and lots of things. I have a carol which I absolutely adore, and it鈥檚 called A Child is Born in Bethlehem.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听 Carol extract

HANNAH-听听听听 It鈥檚 an old Danish carol in an arrangement by a Norwegian called 脴rjan Matre, and it鈥檚 just Christmas for me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Hannah, where can we hear you and when over Christmas and New Year?

HANNAH-听听听听 I have a really lovely Early Music Show on Christmas Eve from my kitchen, from here, and that鈥檚 medieval carols and baroque bangers, and the history of mince pies, yule log, fish pie and why we eat what we do on Christmas Eve. My producers really got involved, especially with the food side of things. It鈥檚 a real soundtrack to Christmas Eve.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Amazing. Hannah French, thank you so much for joining me, and good luck with all your beautiful programming over Christmas and New Year.

HANNAH-听听听听 Thank you so much.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听 Music

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 That was the lovely, lovely Hannah French. I was sad I wasn鈥檛 there for that interview.听 You did a cracking job, Emma.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Thank you. 听I did miss you.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Now be sure to tune in to her traditional festive music and keep her company on Christmas Day and on New Year鈥檚 Day. She鈥檚 on 大象传媒 Radio 3 on FM and digital.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Okay, try this now. 听Are you ready?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Hmmm, hmm.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Turn to your smart speaker if you have one.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Okay. Hail her with your little wake up word like 鈥淎lexa鈥� and they say, 鈥淎sk 大象传媒 Sounds for Access All,鈥� and the latest episode will magically start playing.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 See, I don鈥檛 know whether that would work of me because I do that 鈥渉ey Siri鈥� and it never works.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Oh yeah, Siri can be a bit on and off, a bit hot and cold.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Don鈥檛 let that put you off, listeners, do it. And in the Christmas week on December 27th you鈥檙e going to be able to download our 鈥淏est of 2023鈥� edition, and there鈥檚 some great stuff on there. Remember Melanie and Chase from Australia, and we had Victoria Canal.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 We had Jack Thorne.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Ah, lovely Jack Thorne. We鈥檝e had some cracking guests actually.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Really enjoyed those clips listening back, because we did have really interesting, wonderful people.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檝e had some goodies. And Rosie Jones as well. We鈥檝e also got some very exciting plans for 2024. We are going to be back full-time on the second week of January, but until then people, Merry Christmas or happy holidays or whatever it is you do. If it鈥檚 just like you stay at home, eat lots of food and don鈥檛 wash your hair, have a good one from us to you. 听Bye.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Bye.

[Trailer for Newscast]

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听 Newscast is the unscripted chat behind the headlines.

FEMALE-听听听听听 It鈥檚 informed but informal.

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听 We pick the day鈥檚 top stories and we find experts who can really dig into them.

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听 We use our colleagues in the newsroom and our contacts.

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听 Some people pick up the phone rather faster than others.

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