大象传媒

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23rd January 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� Michael and James Owen Special

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Hi, this is Emma Tracey and you鈥檙e listening to an extra episode of Access All. And I鈥檓 on a train, as you can hear from all the noises around me, and I鈥檓 hot-footing it back to Scotland so that Storm Jocelyn doesn鈥檛 catch up with me. But luckily I didn鈥檛 have to do so before I got to speak to 17 year-old James Owen and his dad, legendary footballer, Michael Owen. James Owen is visually impaired, and we鈥檙e always really interested on Access All about how families manage. And honestly, Michael talks so brilliantly here about how he鈥檚 gotten his head around having a son with low vision, which is fantastic. And they both start interviewing me at one point which is quite something.

[Clip]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Anything else James before we finish? Because I鈥檓 quite enjoying this now, talking about myself.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Who鈥檚 interviewing who?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, exactly [laughter].

[End of clip]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I really hope you enjoy it:

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I am so delighted to have two VIPs in the Access All studio today. I鈥檝e got James Owen and his legendary football dad, Michael Owen. You鈥檙e so welcome. Thank you for coming.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 It鈥檚 great to be here. Really pleased to be here and thank you for having us.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, you鈥檝e got a documentary coming out about partially sighted futsal, which is an indoor football game which has been adapted for visually impaired people. And the reason that you鈥檝e been talking about that is because James is visually impaired and managed to give futsal a go. How has it been making the documentary?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I mean, this has been a surreal experience really. It鈥檚 been quite a while; it鈥檚 been halted due to COVID, so on the documentary I actually look quite a lot younger. I鈥檝e definitely grown quite a lot since then.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I actually could hear you growing in confidence throughout. And by the end of it you really were very confident going to places by yourself, asking your own questions. Did it feel like that, like a bit of a process?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I would say so. The documentary has helped me grow as a person and, I don鈥檛 know. But the whole experience has been brilliant and I鈥檝e made a lot of friends along the way.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 How has the documentary helped you grow as a person, do you think?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, when I was a lot younger I never used to talk about, well, my eyesight, and I never really used to talk about anything really. I used to be quite shy as a kid. That鈥檚 partly to do with the documentary and also partly to do with my dad, because I鈥檝e started being more social now, I would say. I would go to the races with, like, the horses. I鈥檝e got a big interest in horses. And it was just nice to meet people who鈥檝e also got an eye condition just to almost get something off your chest, you know. Because I鈥檝e never met anyone with an eye condition before going on to the documentary.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, you鈥檝e never met someone with an eye condition, how is that? I mean, usually there would be some groups, some opportunities. Was it something you didn鈥檛 want to do?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 I wouldn鈥檛 say it鈥檚 not something I would want to do. It鈥檚 just you just never really see it. And a lot of people wouldn鈥檛 even, when they meet me, they wouldn鈥檛 even think I鈥檝e got a visual impairment in the first place. It鈥檚 not something which we rarely even talk about, to be honest. It鈥檚 just something I live with, so I鈥檝e just got normal mates, I do normal things with my mates. It鈥檚 just sometimes I have different ways of getting around it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. We鈥檝e talked about you having a visual impairment but we haven鈥檛 actually chatted much about what it is. Stargardt鈥檚 disease is what you were diagnosed with. What is that and how does it affect your eyesight?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 I was diagnosed when I was eight years old. And it is a deterioration disease in your eye where I think the central vision is blurry and is less than a normal person鈥檚. I struggle with seeing different colours and all stuff like that, with different lights. I鈥檝e got good peripheral vision, so that鈥檚 something which will stay. But it does get worse over time, which is the more scary part of it from other people鈥檚 point of view.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, what are the strategies and different ways you get around things? You鈥檙e at college, hanging around with your mates, what kinds of strategies do you put in place or what tech do you use? We鈥檙e very geeky here on Access All about stuff like this.

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I mean there鈥檚 loads of things. Just little things like picking up what people sound like or noticing what people are wearing. So, I鈥檇 notice what colour my dad鈥檚 jumper, let鈥檚 say, would be. So, if I ever go out then I would be able to recognise him from the colour of his jumper, not from his face, because obviously I struggle with detail.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. And you know my husband鈥檚 visually impaired and when the kids were toddlers we used to make them wear really bright clothes so that he could see them in the playground and stuff like that.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Michael, we鈥檝e talked about James鈥� experience of it, but as a dad around diagnosis time what kinds of feelings were you having? What was going through your mind?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Well, as James said, it was about when he was eight years old when he was first diagnosed with Stargardt鈥檚 disease. Of course that鈥檚 a hammer blow to a parent. You just want and you think, and he is [laughs], but you want everything to be perfect. Of course it was a sad time, thinking about the future, thinking about how that鈥檚 going to compromise his life, you know, will he be able to drive, will he be able to work, what jobs will be there for him, and all these things run through your mind. So, of course, it鈥檚 like anything, time is a great healer. And in James鈥� case he鈥檚 developed so much as a human being as well, and it鈥檚 been easy to put it to the back of your mind and just to get on with life. James is very positive. He wasn鈥檛 necessarily so positive early on, but certainly in the last five, six, seven, eight years he鈥檚 become a real positive lad. And to be honest, we never speak about his condition; he gets treated like everybody else. We have some positives now 鈥� I mean, I鈥檓 a very positive thinker, just naturally, I鈥檓 very fortunate like that 鈥� but I鈥檒l get to spend more time with him because I鈥檒l be driving him around and things like that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And you can see a future for him now. It sounds like he鈥檚 adapted well now; you can see a future for him. Was that always a worry about what his future would be?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 I guess it was, you know, ten years ago. But I鈥檝e got four children and if I said to you I鈥檓 probably least worried about James鈥� future than any of the others.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Why is that? That鈥檚 so interesting.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 He鈥檚 just mentally very, very strong. He鈥檚 positive about things. He鈥檚 got a great mindset. And his condition won鈥檛 stop him. In his mind, and in my mind, we鈥檝e worked on the theory over time that yes, you鈥檝e been dealt a bad hand, yes there鈥檚 things that you can鈥檛 do that I鈥檇 love you to and you鈥檇 love to do, however what are we going to do? Are we going to sit here and cry all our lives or are we going to make the best of it? And he has just taken the bull by the horns and he will make a positive out of his life, there鈥檚 no question about it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We often hear about mum guilt, but I鈥檝e seen you, Michael, talk about dad guilt. It鈥檚 actually quite hard, isn鈥檛 it, for a parent to see your kid go through anything. And obviously when we were finding out what James鈥� eye condition was there must have been procedures and things like that. That鈥檚 hard as well, isn鈥檛 it?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 It is, yeah. You鈥檙e pushing your son forward to get something you know is going to be painful, you know it鈥檚 going to sting all day, he doesn鈥檛 want it. 听

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Like drops and stuff like that?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Exactly, anything like that, people prodding away at his eyes and sticking things in them and all the rest of it as a kid. It鈥檚 just horrible to see your son not enjoying it and then being in pain and all the rest of it. So, it鈥檚 very difficult. You want to take all the pain away. You want to swap with him; if I could give him my eyes and we鈥檇 do a swap then I would tomorrow of course. But again, you can mope all your life. And I get tired of thinking about it and thinking what if and all the rest of it. We just are so positive. We do all the things. I've got a weekend off this weekend and me and him will be together. I wouldn鈥檛 want to spend my time with anyone else, type of thing. We鈥檒l be out in town, we鈥檒l be watching racing on the television, and he won鈥檛 be able to see it but he鈥檒l be able to hear the commentary, and we鈥檒l be messing about, and we鈥檒l be listening to the football and watching that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Because racing鈥檚 really fast, isn鈥檛 it? It must be very hard to see the detail of racing actually.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Exactly.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And did you get, did you look for help and did you get support? And is there enough support? That鈥檚 a lot of questions in one. So, did you look for help and support, and did you get it?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Well, when we were made aware of what it was of course then there鈥檚 a whole new world out there. It鈥檚 awkward because you want, some people want to turn away from it and just put it to the back of my mind and everything else, and then some people are really at the forefront and wanting to know absolutely everything. Now, I鈥檓 a positive thinker, as I said, and we make the absolute very best of life. However, I would say in the scientific side of things I am one that sits back, tries to do my bit in terms of earning as much money for the charities as possible, hope that the next thing comes out that can maybe benefit James and other partially sighted people. But I鈥檓 not, sort of, phoning the doctors every day saying, 鈥楢nything out there yet that鈥檚 going to make him see better?鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, you鈥檙e not spending your energy and desperate for a cure, but you鈥檙e working in the best way you can to move things forward?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Yeah, I think that鈥檚 fair, that鈥檚 a fair analogy of it. I鈥檓 obviously desperate, desperate, I mean I would pay every cent that I鈥檝e got to make James see again, I鈥檇 walk the other end of the world to make him see better, but鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And would you want that, James?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Would I want?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 For all the visual impairment to go away?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, if I could get my eyes to be fixed tomorrow of course that鈥檚, like, a no-brainer. I鈥檇 love to be able to drive, I鈥檇 love to be able to see my friends and family.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. Part of your identity you have now is the person you are and the eyesight you have, and the people you鈥檝e met some of them have been through that, and the choices you鈥檝e made 鈥� and we鈥檙e going to go on to football in a second 鈥� they鈥檝e probably been based in some ways around being visually impaired. Would life not be very different now if you went back, if your eyesight went the other way?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 sure it鈥檇 be different in many ways, but I definitely think I would still get on with all the people from futsal.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 James, do you have any questions for me as an older 鈥� I mean, I am a totally blind person, it is a bit different 鈥� but have you any questions for me?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Um鈥�

MICHAEL-听听听听听 I have [laughter]. What鈥檚 your biggest challenge? And how do you cope with obviously your impairment?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, my biggest challenge鈥�

MICHAEL-听听听听听 You obviously have amazing adapting strategies.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 James does as well. But is there anything that prevents you from鈥�?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 not brilliant at getting around. Some blind people are. My spatial awareness and sense of direction isn鈥檛 brilliant. So, it鈥檚 not necessarily blind people all over the world. But I wouldn鈥檛 be brilliant at getting around. So, driving I think was something that I would like the technology to arrive for me to do. I could talk about this all day. I鈥檝e been blind from birth and being able to see now would ruin my life because I鈥檝e built a life around not being able to see, and I would have to teach myself to see. And I鈥檝e already got two children and a job and a big life, and it would just take up too much of my time learning how to see.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Wow.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And I think with parenting it鈥檚 other people鈥檚 perceptions and it鈥檚 the normal things around parenting, it鈥檚 not actually running after the children or anything.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 That鈥檚 fascinating.

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Because from our point of view, and you asked the question earlier which made me think a little bit, but when you said, are you sure you would want to see, not if the technology was out there but yeah, if it was out there to actually improve your vision where would you say you鈥檇 be almost perfectly happy not to be able to see for the rest of your life?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I mean, if you brought a cure up to me and said it would be easy and painless and actually we have a course that could teach you to see in a couple of weeks I might change my mind, you know. But at the minute it all would feel like it would just take up a lot of my time, and I鈥檓 quite happy as I am.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 And you say your partner as well is partially sighted. To what level?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 really understand because I can鈥檛 see, but he鈥檚 got albinism. So, I think he finds it hard to see detail from far away. So, what James was saying about people鈥檚 clothes colours, and you wouldn鈥檛 be looking for a house number, you鈥檇 be looking for the colour of the fence or whatever.

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, definitely.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Things like that. So, I think he can see very detail up close, but further away it鈥檚 harder for him. But I don鈥檛 actually know because I haven鈥檛 really talked to him about it that much. And again, he鈥檚 always been visually impaired so he doesn鈥檛 really know what other people can see either. So, it鈥檚 not a conversation, like you guys, it鈥檚 not a conversation that happens in our house really.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 It is incredible, isn鈥檛 it, because people have been asking James when we鈥檝e been doing interviews leading up to the launch of the documentary, and they鈥檙e asking him questions, 鈥榃ell what can you see?鈥� he鈥檚 like, 鈥業 don鈥檛 know, I just... My dad will probably be able to tell you how my visual, because he can in theory see properly and he can explain what it is鈥�. But James finds it hard as well to answer that question.

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 And we don鈥檛 talk about it either that much.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, yeah, we just don鈥檛 need to, do you know. And the kids know.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Are the kids visually impaired?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 what I was going to ask.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, that鈥檚 a question every taxi driver asks me that I get into. If we get into that part of the conversation they always ask me that. They are fully sighted, yes, so they do, they very happily take advantage of us from time to time. But they鈥檙e absolutely brilliant as well.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Wonderful.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And this is their world and, you know, I think they鈥檙e happy in it.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 That鈥檚 amazing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Anything else, James, before we finish? Because I鈥檓 quite enjoying this now, talking about myself.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Who鈥檚 interviewing who? [Laughter]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Exactly.

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 still a bit of shock that you鈥檙e quite happy being where you are. I mean, I鈥檓 quite happy being the way I am, but I would definitely prefer to be able to drive and have a bit more independence.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 But that is okay, and that is your experience and you鈥檙e allowed to feel like that. You鈥檙e also a teenager. I鈥檓 in my 40s, I鈥檝e had a long time to get used to it, and I鈥檝e made a lot of choices based on it. So, we鈥檙e in totally different parts of the journey, and there鈥檚 no right way to think about it.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You are here to talk about a documentary about partially sighted futsal. And James, your grandad was a footballer, your dad was a very, very successful footballer, did you hope to be a footballer?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I mean, of course. Like, everyone wants to be a footballer, especially when it鈥檚 so close to home and being inspired from your dad. It鈥檚 something I really wanted to go into. But obviously that鈥檚 not the cards I鈥檝e been dealt. I still enjoyed playing football for a long time, but it got to the point where I struggled to compete when the pitches got bigger. And it was all getting too fast-paced, everyone was getting better and better. I was good at the ball, I was actually a decent player, funnily enough.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Do you agree, Michael, was he a decent player?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 He was good, yeah. As he says, until the pitch got bigger and he couldn鈥檛 see the ball as well, and by the time he saw it it was whizzing past and he couldn鈥檛 get into position. So, of course the normal things. And James鈥� character is if he鈥檚 not going to be brilliant at something he probably doesn鈥檛 want to do it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Where did he get that from, I wonder.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 I know. His mum. His mum.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

MICHAEL-听听听听听 All his bad traits are his mum.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 know if it鈥檚 a bad trait at all [laughter]. So, when you discovered partially sighted futsal how did that make you feel and what did you think about that?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, it was quite a big shock to be honest, because I didn鈥檛 expect the standard to be good as it actually was. And I didn鈥檛 expect the sport to be the same as it actually was. I thought that I鈥檇 go there and have to put a blindfold on and play football with a bell in a ball.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, you were thinking about blind football as you鈥檇 seen it at the Paralympics and on ads and stuff like that?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. But I just presumed, I don鈥檛 know鈥�I just must have not even thought about it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檇 never heard of it either.

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檇 never heard of it either. What is it? What is visually impaired or partially sighted futsal?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 just normal football but on a smaller scaled pitch, which is perfect for someone like me who used to struggle with the pitch getting bigger. Because that is one of the main factors which caused me to stop playing. But in visually impaired futsal or in normal futsal I believe the ball is slightly heavier, to stop it bounding and stuff like that; the goals are normally slightly smaller, like similar size to a hockey goal; and the goalkeeper is allowed to be fully sighted and is not allowed to leave the D.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 What鈥檚 the D?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 It鈥檚 like an area around the goal.

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 A bit like a box.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 We would call it the 18-yard box in football.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay, so they have to stay in their lane, these fully sighted players?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Exactly [laughs], that鈥檚 right. The goalkeepers are fully sighted but the rest of the team aren鈥檛.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And how did you get on with the game?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I don鈥檛 want to spoil it because obviously this is for the documentary, but I did actually score at some point while training with the England team.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Woo.

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Which I鈥檓 quite happy about. I鈥檓 glad they kept some of the good parts in. I know there some point where I actually got megged and scored an own goal from getting past鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Do you want to explain to the listeners what this?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Getting nutmegged: the ball goes through your legs. It鈥檚 one of the most embarrassing things in football if you get nutmegged.

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, and then score an own goal from it, it was just like, yeah, not a great moment. And it was on camera.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 They took that out as well.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, they didn鈥檛 leave that in.

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 a bit disappointed [laughs].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You were still getting used to the game.

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And in terms of your vision, was it quite similar to the other players? In terms of classification did you have a think about what you would be? So, B1, there鈥檚, like, very blind. Like me I鈥檓 a total, I couldn鈥檛 play that game. So, B1 is a little bit of vision.

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 I think I was B2, wasn鈥檛 I? B2 or 3, something like that.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Yeah, I can鈥檛 remember exactly what you are.

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 No, but it was a long time ago.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 It鈥檚 a very good question because there鈥檚 a certain amount of players allowed on the pitch at a certain time that have different classifications, as you say. So, you鈥檙e only allowed, you know, maybe a couple of B2s, maybe a couple of B3s at any point. And when you鈥檙e making substitutions you鈥檝e got to be aware of what players are what. So, of course if you have somebody that鈥檚 vision is seriously impaired but they鈥檙e exceptional players then they鈥檙e worth their weight in gold because obviously you鈥檙e playing with a player that in theory on the other team wouldn鈥檛 be as good having their vision not being good at all. There鈥檚 a few complications in it, but, you know.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, the vision level doesn鈥檛 actually relate to how good a player you are?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 It doesn鈥檛, but you do have to have a certain amount of players on the pitch at any one time in a certain category, just to make it fair.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Sure. And James, are you going to continue with the futsal?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Unfortunately not. I did enjoy playing it, and I enjoyed, well normal football, I enjoy football in general. But, as dad said, it鈥檚 a lot of commitment really, and I want to focus on business, so unfortunately just can鈥檛 really go together. But鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 But it was a really good experience?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I enjoyed every minute of filming the documentary and it was a great laugh, yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, where will we see you, do you think 鈥� I mean, you鈥檙e 17, I did not know what I was doing at 17 鈥� but where do you think we鈥檒l see James Owen in ten years鈥� time? Daddy can say what he thinks as well.

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh god, I don鈥檛 even鈥�I wouldn鈥檛 even be able to guess. I mean, if you were to have asked this question a few years ago and asked where I鈥檇 be now I would not have guessed this. Because I was a shy kid, I literally just used to want to play on the Xbox. But I definitely got brought out of my shell, whether this be from the documentary or from my dad. But I definitely wouldn鈥檛 see myself being here speaking to you [laughs].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, you don鈥檛 know what kind of business you want to do or anything?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 No, not necessarily, but I would want to have my own business.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And daddy, what do you think? Michael Owen, what do you think your son James will be doing in ten years鈥� time?

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Well, he鈥檒l be successful, I鈥檓 pretty sure about that. I mean, he takes a keen interest in my business, which is the training of racehorses. And he鈥檚 taken a particular shine to that and a passion; more so with clients, meeting people, picking their brains as to what they do and how they鈥檝e become so successful. Actually looking into my business as well and understanding it, I think he takes a particular shine to that as well. So, he will definitely run a business of some sort in the future. What that will be I鈥檓 not sure.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 fair enough.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 I pretty much know that when I retire from working in 30 years or something he鈥檒l probably take over鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 The family empire.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 鈥�over the family empire.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, that鈥檚 fantastic. James鈥� and Michael鈥檚 documentary, Football is for Everyone, is available from 30th January on TNT Sports and Discovery Plus. Thank you so much, Michael Owen and James Owen.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 I鈥檓 so impressed. Well done you.

JAMES-听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you. No, well done you! Stop it, it鈥檚 not about me.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 Amazing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Wasn鈥檛 supposed to be about me anyway.

MICHAEL-听听听听听 No, it鈥檚 very inspirational. Amazing that was.

MUSIC-

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I thoroughly enjoyed that interview. Honestly, it was so good to talk about growing up with a visual impairment and jobs and school and sports. And also how Michael Owen worked through having a son with low vision. If you鈥檇 like us to interview someone in particular please email accessall@bbc.co.uk. And remember that this is the second episode of Access All this week. The first one is called Drugs Shortage, and it鈥檚 probably already on your device. But if it isn鈥檛 pop on, subscribe on 大象传媒 Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts, and you鈥檒l have that one as well. Really looking forward to seeing you next week. Bye.

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