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09th May 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 104

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檝e already had one episode of Access All this week with Liz Carr. This is our second interview special of the week, and this time it is with the Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work, Mims Davies. And she鈥檒l be joined by Craig Crowley who鈥檚 from the British Sign Language Advisory Board that鈥檚 been set up for a year now, and we鈥檙e going to talk about that. But to be honest, there have been loads of disability stories in the news lately, big ones, and we鈥檙e going to talk about those too, so let鈥檚 just get on with the show.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, this is Access All, the disability and mental health podcast from 大象传媒 News. I鈥檓 Emma Tracey, and in your second episode of Access All this week we are speaking to Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work, Mims Davies, and the co-chair of the British Sign Language Advisory Board, Craig Crowley. That was set up a year ago, Craig is the co-chair and he鈥檒l be speaking to us through a British Sign Language interpreter. Please subscribe to us on 大象传媒 Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can contact us with any feedback on this interview or about anything else on accessall@bbc.co.uk.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 been exactly a year since the government created a BSL, British Sign Language Advisory Board to better understand the lived experience of deaf people. Mims Davies, the Minister for Disability, Health and Work has decided to come on to our podcast, Access All, to talk to us about the board and how it鈥檚 been going. And joining Mims Davies today is Craig Crowley, who鈥檚 the CEO of Action Deafness and the co-chair of the advisory board. Hello both.

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Good morning, Emma. Hello, Craig.

CRAIG-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, good morning.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Good morning, you鈥檙e so welcome. It鈥檚 really nice to have you with us, Minister. I think Minister would we be fair to say the job title that disabled people deserve, rather than Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Mims Davies? 听听听听听听听听

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, both are ministers, and I have the same power with both. But I鈥檓 not going to complain about being the Minister of State for Disabled People, Health and Work. I鈥檓 delighted to do the role. It鈥檚 the most humbling and brilliant role I could ever hope for.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, more about that maybe later. But let鈥檚 talk about the BSL Advisory Board. Mims, why did the government set up this board?

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 been one year since this board first began advising government on key issues when it comes to those impacting BSL users in the deaf community. And this board has been appointed for three years to look at a programme of work to address the matters that deaf people feel are barriers that need to be challenged, and also to bring forward opportunities. So, what you鈥檝e seen is them helping with the development of the new BSL GCSE; giving really clear and important insights into the barriers that deaf athletes have when it comes to competing; and also looking at priority areas for disabled people more widely, but really for deaf people the issue also is around health and social care so they鈥檝e been looking at that; education and wider government communication. So, they鈥檝e been very busy in this first year, and I鈥檓 delighted all the team have really delivered on a big focus for government, which frankly needed to happen.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 This one鈥檚 directed at Craig: there were 17 of you on the board, what was the experience like for you and what do you want the government to understand?

CRAIG-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, it鈥檚 a real honour for me to be the co-chair of this committee and be part of the board. It鈥檚 really important because it鈥檚 helping the government to understand the issues and we鈥檙e sharing lots of information with them, issues that really affect the deaf community. The experience so far I have to say the board itself is a collection of very different people, there are 17 of us altogether, and we are able to advise the government, give them information and address issues that can really drive forward positive change.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And here on Access All, 大象传媒鈥檚 disability and mental health podcast, we have created some BSL videos on the 大象传媒 Sounds YouTube channel. And there are six videos and they鈥檙e highlights of some of our best interviews this year. Craig, I just wondered, and Mims, around the advisory board have you guys looked at BSL in unusual or different types of media, not just TV, you know, podcasts and things like that that wouldn鈥檛 necessarily be signed? Have you kind of looked into better access to those?

CRAIG-听听听听听听听听听听听听 If I could just jump in quickly, that鈥檚 one of the many areas that we will be considering as part of the advisory board. Recently we had the National Disability Action Plan and we were advising through that process. We had BSL interpreters in the Number 10 announcement. And that鈥檚 one step towards where we want to be. And podcasts will be another step along that road. It鈥檚 definitely something we鈥檙e exploring.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much, Craig. And Mims, is that the kind of breadth of things you want the board to be looking at and talking about?

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely. The board will be now looking at their next programme of work for the next two years of their tenure, Emma. I think hopefully it鈥檚 building on the ground-breaking recognition that BSL has as a language in England, Scotland and Wales. It sits alongside, as Craig said, the 32 practical actions of the Disability Action Plan, which is running across this year. There will be a further update from the board this July. They鈥檝e already had one report; there鈥檒l be another one coming. And that will link into the Disability Action Plan updates as well they will be reporting in the summer.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I would imagine that the success of a board like that often depends on the minister and where they are in the set-up of government. And if we can just move on a little bit from BSL because we鈥檝e got you here Mims Davies, I mean your job title was an interesting thing on our podcast, we talked about it a lot. First of all we talked about the gap there was after Tom Pursglove stopped being the Minister for Disabled People. There was a gap, it was the longest in years. And then you were given disability as part of a wider brief with social mobility and other things, and as a Parliamentary Under-Secretary. I mean, was the brief too wide? Was the job title too low? Should you have been immediately a minister?

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Just to be very clear to people listening, there was a lot of narrative around this and some of it wasn鈥檛 quite right, Emma. I鈥檝e been pretty much the longest serving minister in DWP, not far off five years, and one of the reasons that I have got this role is because of my experience of delivering for people in the labour market and in the Department of Work and Pensions. My dad was disabled for over 25 years and my mum worked with young disabled adults, those people transitioning out of education and into young adult life. She was part of the early part of the RDA and she was also part of the early movement of the Special Olympics. So, I actually think I am very much the right person for the job. And just to be clear, once there was an opportunity to make me the Minister of State it has been a mixture over our government of Parliamentary Under-Secretary or Minister of State.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, it has; it鈥檚 mostly been Minister of State though.

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, and I鈥檓 delighted that it has that recognition of course.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But then you were given it as part of a wider brief.

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, let me come onto that. But also, if I may, the other point around the role is actually those transitions from education into the wider labour market and wider support are actually really key. And I have a big focus on young people and social mobility and progression for people. And disabled people and those with health conditions, and housing which is part of my wider brief and my knowledge, bringing that all together and having been the Employment Minister I think was really important. I鈥檒l just say, under the Labour government always the disabled minister under the Blair government was a Parliamentary Under-Secretary. So, those people saying from the sidelines this is a demotion it鈥檚 not right.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Was there a lot of pressure on the government to bring the job back to Minister of State? Because I mean David Clarke, from Paralympics GP, headed up an open letter with quite a lot of organisations, which got quite a lot of media attention, saying that it should be brought back to Minister of State. Was that part of the reason?

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 As soon as it was possible with the government positions, which are set by Cabinet Office and their various rules, it has been. Look, I鈥檓 wearing my Paralympics badge. I worked with the Paralympics when I was Sports Minister so I know them well, and I understand why that argument was being made. But to my very strong focus on this is it didn鈥檛 matter what level I was or how much I get paid, because ultimately that is what people were pushing for me, me to get the promotion, I was doing the job whatever. And I was delighted to do the job and I would have done it any level. And I think being focused on the rank in government wasn鈥檛 helpful because I think disabled people felt that they didn鈥檛 have a representative, which wasn鈥檛 true. And from day one I鈥檝e been working on the Disability Action Plan, on the work that we have here with Craig and the team there, and the perception that disabled people weren鈥檛 understood or being forgotten, and that鈥檚 not the case. And I鈥檝e worked very hard to make sure that people don鈥檛 feel that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, I hear you, I hear what you鈥檙e saying. So, what鈥檚 your relationship like with Prime Minister Rishi Sunak on disability policy? And the reason I ask that question is because on 30th April you reposted a post on X from disability charity Scope, and I鈥檓 just going to quote it. It said, 鈥楶roposals to curb PIP and to change how people are assessed as unfit for work are dangerous鈥�. You reposted that, actually twice. You did repost the consultation as well. But it did lead us to wonder whether you agreed with what鈥檚 in this consultation around PIP, which we鈥檝e been talking about a lot on the podcast. And if not, what do you disagree with?

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, I was trying to share the message which is on my post that this is a very clear, open consultation for disabled people, those with health conditions and those that have needs to actively feed into the government. For some reason it has shared twice. I was trying to make the comment that I have shared.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 We all make slips, we all make social media slips in terms of sharing things twice. But you did share it once, so I wonder did you agree with Scope and what they said?

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, I don鈥檛 agree, which is why I was trying to say this is an open consultation, and I don鈥檛 want disabled people and those with health conditions to feel frightened about what is a green paper and a discussion paper, which is exactly about making sure disabled people鈥檚 voices are heard and understood 鈥� exactly what we鈥檙e discussing on the programme. For whatever reason, either a glitch I don鈥檛 understand, and other people have had the same where they鈥檝e tried to make a comment on it. So, I really don鈥檛 think that鈥檚 the story. The story for me is that I don鈥檛 want people to not have a say and to over-read this; but to have their voice in this consultation. We鈥檝e talked about it on the podcast today about disabled people getting a voice, and that鈥檚 what I was keen to push; not that this is any kind of done deal and that people should be scaremongering.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, it isn鈥檛 a done deal, it definitely isn鈥檛 a done deal because the results of the consultation won鈥檛 come out and nothing will be able to be done with them until after a General Election. Which has made some disabled people feel that this consultation is more of a gesture to the voting public who agree that benefits are too high, who agree that the wrong people are getting benefits. Is it?

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, a few things. I鈥檝e been a minister at DWP for five years, more or less, working on the Kickstart programme to help young people, quite often with undiagnosed health conditions and needs, to progress into work; setting up youth hubs to help people with the biggest barriers into work; and also to support people at their most vulnerable. There is a huge narrative, which is what I was trying to combat in that message, that there is some kind of done deal on this. This is about understanding the needs. And what鈥檚 been very clear from the Disability Action Plan or the National Disability Strategy that disabled people want and need to be heard, and that actually a changed labour market, we鈥檝e got more people鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But some of them feel like political footballs right now. Some of them feel like they鈥檙e pawns in a political game because this consultation has come out so far into an election year.

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 There鈥檚 no political game here. I think the reality is, and I was just going on to say, there is a changed labour market: there鈥檚 less presenteeism, more flexibility, more AI, more tech, more ways that we can support disabled people to work, thrive and flourish in the way that鈥檚 right for them. And part of that is looking at the benefits system, for one reason because actually some of those most vulnerable and those people with the most financial needs and costs need to be understood. But equally are we targeting our support right? We have beaten our disability employment goal, and I鈥檓 looking at that right now, things around Disability Confident and other interventions such as Access to Work.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh my goodness, do you know what, I could talk to you about the disability employment goal and the widening the gap etc. but鈥�

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, watch this space, Emma. Watch this space.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But, you know, you always say you鈥檝e widened the gap when actually it鈥檚 a bit more complicated than that, isn鈥檛 it?

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Exactly, which is why we鈥檙e looking at the next goal.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Right, can we go onto Stephen Timms, the Head of the Work and Pensions Committee? He criticised the DWP when all the news came out around carers being allowed to be overpaid their allowance and it not being caught on time, and them being in lots of debt and being asked to pay it back. I mean, five years ago MPs asked the DWP to do some research around how the payment system affected the carers, and that report hasn鈥檛 come out yet. You鈥檝e mentioned recently that it will come out soon, but why is it not here? Why have we not seen the results of that? Is there something to hide there?

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No. it鈥檚 being used for policy development on carers, and it鈥檚 actually incredibly useful. And our Secretary of State and I have agreed for it to be published, and it will be shortly.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 When will it be published?

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, the process is the process. It will be I think, in parliamentary speak, 鈥渟hortly鈥� because this is a very interesting subject for me. I was the co-chair of鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Weeks? Months?

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Emma, I鈥檓 trying to answer your questions and it鈥檚 really difficult if I can鈥檛 finish my sentence. I was co-chair of the all-party group on carers, so I鈥檝e been working with Carers UK since I came in. One of the reasons to be in frontline politics is I came from a family impacted by disablement and caring, respite and everything that comes with it is one of my drivers in politics. So, I鈥檓 delighted to be looking at this policy area. And Stephen Timms and I in the select committee and indeed in Westminster Hall debates just recently, I鈥檝e really welcomed the interest in this area. He had a look at this with or the previous committee rather in 2019. He is a minister who was in the department in 2008 as minister looking at benefit change. And it鈥檚 been there since the 1970s. And I think it is one of the most challenging policies and support to get right. If you鈥檙e not a carer now you will be a carer in the future or you will need to be cared for, so we as a government, we as a community need to get this right. And I do welcome the interest and I鈥檓 looking at it forensically.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, we do look forward to seeing that report. There are so many things I want to ask you, because we talked about the UNCRPD, the UN鈥檚 disability committee, and that they鈥檝e been looking into what they say are violations of their requirements around about giving disabled people dignity and Access to Work, and the Work Capability Assessment. And there was an evidence session in the summer last year which the government didn鈥檛 attend. That didn鈥檛 look really that great, did it?

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 not unusual for government ministers not to be there. I was actually, when that session was on, answering questions in the House of Commons, so I couldn鈥檛 be in two places at once. But I am disappointed with what they鈥檝e had to say. I will be in New York this summer at their event, all being well, I鈥檒l be part of the Paralympics. But also equally, Emma, you鈥檝e said there鈥檚 lots to get on with, and that鈥檚 what I鈥檓 doing as well, whether it's looking at Disability Confident and how to make that right; the next disability employment goal, delivering on the Disability Action Plan this summer; the first update which we hope to bring forward around accessible playgrounds; the work around costs and other things that disabled people want and need us to be looking at.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Like extra costs?

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. So, there鈥檚 a big body of work that we鈥檙e doing. But I fundamentally feel disappointed with that report. Again, it seems to fit this narrative that the government is, you know, not keen to understand disabled people; which I fundamentally disagree with. That鈥檚 why I鈥檓 in this job, absolutely all in to make things better and make those relationships better, and disabled people and those with health conditions to feel supported. One other key area is so many employers want to support and help people in the labour market, perhaps if it鈥檚 an acquired condition as well, and I鈥檓 really working strongly with employers to stop just talking about that narrative, but deliver on that narrative and give them the confidence to do that. And I think that鈥檚 really exciting when it comes to this labour market.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, in three words, will it be something different to Disability Confident? Because it feels like Disability Confident is on the way out?

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, no. Disability Confident we鈥檝e just done some further updates on management guidance. But for me I think you need to be looking at the whole lens when it comes to disability employment, whether it鈥檚 around the goal, around Disability Confident, around Access to Work. This needs to work for disabled people, employers, and that鈥檚 what I鈥檓 focused on.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Disabled people would say all those three things need changes. We鈥檙e talking to Liz Carr, disabled actor, about her documentary on assisted dying or assisted suicide, which is what she would call it. And obviously it鈥檚 been in the news a lot lately, the Prime Minister is saying there would be a free vote on it, so you won鈥檛 be whipped, you can vote how you want. Taking your job as Disability Minister and your experience of disability, is it okay to ask what you will be voting or what you will be thinking about when making that vote?

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think it鈥檚 always important to listen to the debate, as a constituency MP, where there鈥檚 any free or conscience debate. But for me I very much feel, and as the Minister for Disabled People, my dad often felt a burden and felt worried about the future, I鈥檓 very mindful that鈥檚 how many disabled people and disabled organisations will feel. So, for me if this comes forward, and I think the opposition have said that if they come forward they would bring it forward, this is something that we鈥檝e seen recently in Westminster Hall, I don鈥檛 think we should be rushing into this. We鈥檝e already seen a private members bill which was too narrow and wasn鈥檛 right. We need to have all voices. And I think Liz鈥檚 documentary is very welcome.

Again, one of my key points as Minister for Disabled People Health and Work at DWP is to support disabled people to feel supported, understood and valued, and they shouldn鈥檛 be worried about this, and their voices and those representing them and their families need to be heard. This is about a very wide-ranging debate; it needs to be a grown-up and adult debate. But for me, huge caveats and support is needed to be given should any law change. And I think we have to be very open-minded, anybody who is voting for that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, just to be really clear, will you be voting for or against the current bill that鈥檚 being brought through?

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I haven鈥檛 seen the details of current bill. I鈥檝e voted against it before. I鈥檝e given you the background about my dad and how I feel about this. I understand Esther Rantzen and other people have different views. But for me, at the moment if anybody was voting for it you鈥檇 have to have huge caveats, it would have to be very well understood, and I think we鈥檙e miles away from that. I think it鈥檚 important to have the debate, but for me, disabled people and those with health conditions and wellbeing needs have to be listened and understood. And we鈥檙e miles away, as far as I can see, from making any kind of change to the law.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thanks to Mims Davies, Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work, and to Craig Crowley from the BSL Advisory Board. And we have our own BSL videos on the 大象传媒 Sounds YouTube channel. There are six of them and they are highlights from some of our favourite interviews this year so far. Please do take a look.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We have had some feedback about last week鈥檚 episode about exam preparations. We had it from someone who鈥檚 doing their GCSEs at the moment, it鈥檚 Ruth, and she says, 鈥業 have dyslexia, which means it takes me longer to process information. And the stress of exams can cause panic attacks. Because of this I get 25% extra time, 15 minutes worth of rest breaks, and software which reads me the exams through headphones 鈥� that鈥檚 my favourite line. These arrangements do not give me an advantage over the neurotypical 鈥� so I think she means people who are not neurodivergent 鈥� but they allow me to perform at my best. Thank you for talking about it鈥�. Well, thank you for emailing us, Ruth, we really, really appreciate it.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 it for this week. Thanks for listening. Goodbye.

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