大象传媒

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26 June 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 112

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA - Hello, I鈥檓 Emma Tracey and this is the 大象传媒鈥檚 weekly disability and mental health podcast. As part of Access All鈥檚 general election coverage we have invited representatives from the UK鈥檚 seven main political parties to take part over several episodes.

We鈥檝e been putting your questions 鈥� and concerns 鈥� to them. And we鈥檝e been exploring their policies around disability and mental health.

This episode is all about the Labour party. We spoke to Angela Rayner, deputy leader of the party.

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EMMA - Angela Rayner, deputy leader of the Labour Party, thank you for joining me on Access All.

ANGELA - Thank you. It's great to be here with you.

EMMA - You've got 45 seconds, Angela Rayner, to tell us about you.

ANGELA - Oh, me. Well I鈥檓 a grandma, I鈥檓 a mum, I鈥檓 feisty, I鈥檓 a Mancunian and I fight for justice every single day and I've done that ever since I was a young child when I used to look after my mum when I was a young carer.

EMMA - OK, you still have 30 seconds.

ANGELA 鈥� Do I? Gosh, 30 more seconds!

EMMA - Yeah

ANGELA - I do like to go out occasionally when I get to go out which is not very frequent at the moment and see my friends have had the same set of friends since I was at school who have always looked after me and it's really good to keep them as friends as well. I enjoy spending time with my children at home. I love doing the binge boxset when I have time off and just loafing around in my PJs..

EMMA -听 Lovely. Thank you for that little insight into the real Angela Rayner. How many disabled candidates is Labour having standing for this election, do you know?

ANGELA - Well, we know of 14% of our candidate have self-identified as disabled, but we don't make people out themselves in terms of that, s we may have more. But at the moment we know from our tracking that we have at least 14% of our candidates

EMMA 鈥� And do you know how many that is in numbers?

ANGELA - Not entirely in numbers, but we've got you know, Like I say we are variations, because it depends on whether people have decided to say that they鈥檙e disabled or not.

EMMA - Sure that's actually higher than average. So that's, that's really interesting, your manifesto is it available in different formats, did that happen at the same time as your regular manifesto.

ANGELA - Yes, I think there was a minor delay in some of the accessibility of the manifesto, but our manifesto is accessible. It's in Braille. It has BSL Short clips. It has a pdF Easy to read format,

EMMA 鈥� The easy read isn鈥檛 available yet, though, Angela. We haven't seen that yet.

ANGELA - OK, well, it should be available, but we have made as accessible as we possibly can for people, so that they can read our manifesto. Although, to be fair. I'm not quite sure how accessible manifestos are per se, cos they tend to be quite long winded and boring for most people. The shorter clips that we try and do, especially on social media is about giving people those bitesize amounts of crucial information in our manifesto.

EMMA - Someone can let us know when they see the easy read Labour manifesto, come out now.

You say in your manifesto that you will go towards having equal pay for disabled people. This is really important for disabled people who are in work and struggling to progress and then find out that they are not being paid the same as their colleagues. What does that mean, how will you make this happen?

ANGELA 鈥� We鈥檒l have mandatory disability pay gap reporting and ethnicity pay gap reporting. We already have that in terms of the gender pay gap, but we think it's important to expand that as well and one of the frustrations for me is that often it's seen as disability is an issue in the workplace rather than the ability of people and what they bring to the economy and how one of the big drivers behind our new deal for working people is around flexibility because, actually, some small changes in the workplace can really mean that you have great assets in the people that work for you who can bring around those profits and can really transform a workplace. The frustration for me, as someone who's got a disabled child, is that he is an incredibly talented young person and I don't want to be seen as a 鈥榙isability鈥�. I want him to be seen as his abilities and what he could do to transform a work place.

EMMA - what will the push for equal pay for disabled people mean in practice? Apart from what you've said already about the reporting, how will you bring it in.

ANGELA - By making sure that employers have to report their disability pay gap, then. That should reduce, as we have seen in the gender pay gap, and also the last Labour government brought in the public duties on accessibility. I don't accept that buildings and workplaces have to be as inaccessible as they are. I think with reasonable adjustments and with was looking at buildings into the future in terms of what they're able to bring for all types of disabilities I think they make it more accessible for everyone. A I don't accept it is a restraint for people work.

We saw in the pandemic that people were asked to work incredibly flexibly. And things that were considered not able to be done were done so I don鈥檛 accept that we can't make our workplaces more accessible.

EMMA - The fact that working from home has become part of the drive to get more disabled people into work can be scary for some as can language around getting more disabled people back into work and a direct quote from your manifesto is 鈥減eople who can work, should work, and there will be consequences f or those who do not fulfil their obligations鈥�.听 I think disabled people find that sort of language, it feels really scary and one of our listeners Kerin, write in specifically about language and said that it was adding a lot of stress to their lives.

ANGELA - Well, first of all I can completely understand why people are concerned and language is important and you quoted from our manifesto and it was those that 鈥渃an work鈥� and for me many people who have disabilities want to work, are now prohibited then penalised because the assessment isn't in place and the support is, isn't in place. As I say I've got a young teenager son who starts college in September. I don't want him to be penalised are scared of the workplace. I want him to be supported to be the best he can be in whatever profession he chooses to go into is actually going into early years, but I want him to be able to be supported in that. And I want every person to reach their full potential. And what we've seen is draconian measures under the Conservatives and the work capability assessment has been appalling. It has not been supportive for people. So we want to review the system and make it so we support people.

The language is very different. It's about supporting people and helping people to reach their full potential as opposed to seeing them as a problem or somebody who isn鈥檛 doing the right thing.

EMMA 鈥� But 鈥渕eeting your obligation is really strong鈥�, isn't it. Talking about sanctions and about getting to the Job Centre. And these people who cannot work are ill too ill to work their mental health problems prohibit them from doing any work or any work that is enough to not be on benefits. But getting to the job centre, meeting obligations put on them to find work can sometimes be too much. And then they end up with nothing to live on.

ANGELA - Well, that's why we鈥檝e got to review the system because if people have chronic conditions that mean they cannot do work, then they should not be penalised for that. And if they can't get to a Job Centre, then the Job Centre should come to them. If there isn't a job that they feel that they could do at the time, then our health, social care our local government services should be supporting people to live as fulfilled lives as they can be supported in that. And I want to see that. And that's what I think the change in culture from a Labour government will be if you want to go to work. We will support you and help you with that if you cannot go to work. We will make sure that there is a safety net, that not only support you in your day to day living, but helps you in the best lifestyle that you can possibly achieve.

EMMA - Something that was really positive that came out of your manifesto was the idea of two weeks' Work experience for all young people because you wouldn鈥檛 believe the amount of disabled people, well maybe you would, because you have a disabled youngster, but you would not believe the amount of disabled people who are even later in their lives who have never been in a workplace and I just wonder, like, isn't it the employers gift to give work experience to people. How would you make that happen and will disabled people be included in this because we can be kind of costly and complicated to get in for two weeks, somewhere but it would just be a great, great thing for disabled young people to get work experience.

ANGELA - What I've seen over the last 14 years is actually it鈥檚 become increasingly hard and the onus is on the young person and their family to try and find that work experience. I had that experience with my son, like I say he鈥檚 16 now and finding him a suitable workplace experience, I think we should ask the schools to do more to help young people to find a placement. That's what used to happen.

It is certain that happened when I had my work experience. I didn't have networks in order for me to find my own placement. I think working with employers and having that cultural shift to see people with disabilities as people with abilities and how they can support them in their workplace and having a different conversation about the untapped potential and the lack of income into our economy, quite frankly and skills, because we're not reaching people's full potential. I'd like to see that from employers. There is some excellent employers out there that recognise.

EMMA - So Is there anything to compel them to do it? In the manifest you say that all young people will get work experience. But employers will need to be compelled to do it. It's not really just a chat with the school is it.

ANGELA - Well no, we've talked about curriculum reform. We have talked about how we can support schools in making sure that people who leave school are ready for work. Ready for life. And have that resilience but it's also about my new deal for working people, which is about a full employment package which recognises that actually secure work, flexibility at work and treating your staff fairly and responsibly is what we want to drive forward. So, for example, of using the tools of government procurement can make sure that we support those employers that want to do the right thing and just really having a cultural shift in a society which, unfortunately.

EMMA 鈥� It鈥檚 hard to make a cultural shift for disabled people. It鈥檚 really hard.

ANGELA 鈥� It is, but we鈥檝e had a government that has not been on their side for 15 years of record.

EMMA 鈥� What about Access to Work, maybe that could help with the work experience. I mean it takes ages to get your Access to Work just now, which is the fund designed to meet extra costs for disabled people in work and one of the biggest things about Access to Work is if you have a short term contract or if you need to start straight away. Would that be speeded up to help get work experience going because some people need a lot of equipment.

ANGELA 鈥� I absolutely accept that Access to Work, isn't working as quickly and efficiently as it should do. I have a level two in BSL and the amount of times that I was begged to help people who go in for job interviews because we just don't have enough interpreters who can respond quickly enough for people who wanted to get into a job interview even. We know there is much more that needs to be done to support people in getting access to the funds and the support and the equipment that they need quickly and that again is crucially, about employers, seeing people as not a problem that needs to be adjusted to in the workplace. But seeing them as an asset that brings that resource with them for them to show that they're an excellent employer and that is what we need to do. And that's the drive that we need to change in government.

EMMA -听 Talking about equipment and support, something that I noticed was missing from your manifesto was the words Personal independence Payments. PIP, that's the non means tested benefit that disabled people can apply for to meet the extra costs.

ANGELA - I'm going through at the moment with my sixteen year old, who鈥檚 transitioning [laugh].

EMMA 鈥� So why is it not mentioned by name in the manifesto because it's such a big thing for our audience and you'll know that there was a green paper brought out about it just before the election was called. There is a consultation, some suggestions that disabled people are very exercised about around asking people to pick from brochures the equipment that maybe the Government felt they needed rather than stuff they know they needed. Or to use vouchers. et-cetera. It's a huge thing for our audience, we get so many messages and particularly people with mental health difficulties who are really worried about being reassessed. Will you continue with this consultation process, If you are elected to government?

ANGELA - We have committed to taking a look of it and the government have had reviews and have had reports and nothing has happened on this base and as I say I've looked after my mum who's got bipolar and my son who's now transitioning from Disability Living Allowance mobility going on to Personal Independence Payments and as a vulnerable person it's awful for him as a sixteen year old and you know, personal assistants and all of that. It's an absolute minefield for anyone at the moment who is looking at accessing the support they need and that is why Labour is committed to reviewing that and working with people with disabilities, so they can get the support they need.

EMMA -听 I thought it would've been in the manifesto then, that why I'm so surprised.

ANGELA - We are committed to reviewing it, as I say, and it鈥檚 so bureaucratic, it's almost impregnable. And it's awful to have to go through that, as I say, even if you need personal support, having to set up finances. You know my, son. Sixteen, he鈥檚 been told he the money has to go to him, to go into his account to pay his personal assistant for two hours a week of support.

EMMA 鈥� So his PIP has to pay for his personal assistance. That鈥檚 a minefield in itself, Angela Rayner.

ANGELA 鈥� It is. I understand intimately the challenges that many people are facing at the moment. And this is about it being inaccessible as opposed to being accessible and that's what we have to change, a cultural change, but also the system has to change because at the moment it is not working - the delays that people are facing, whether it's a work capability assessment or whether it鈥檚 PIP. The delays in that, the appeals and the amount of people that have to go through appeals to then be successful, which shows again an example, that the system isn't working for people.

EMMA - Another thing that disabled people have told us, isn't working for them is his housing and you talk on your in your manifesto about reforming planning laws, you talk about building lots of new sustainable homes. But there is nothing about accessible homes, despite the fact that one in three disabled people are renting houses that are unsuitable for them that only 7% of the housing stock is wheelchair accessible. Massive, massive issue. Again, housing got a big mention in the manifesto, but no specifics on disability and adaptations to housing.

ANGELA - Adaptations, and housing that meets people's needs, is really important. I've spoke to many housing associations and local authorities that want to build the houses they desperately need for people. At the moment we have this crazy situation where a house can be adapted, but then it's undone again and it鈥檚 not matched to somebody else's needs that might need it. I had a constituent only a couple of years ago whose partner, they were washing downstairs in a paddling pool because they were waiting 鈥�

EMMA 鈥� Yeah, so what are you going to do about it all then?

ANGEL - Well, we've got to make sure that first of all we are building the social and council houses as well as the affordable homes that we need. Strengthening 106 notices so we get developers to meet their obligations, so that we can build accessible homes and supporting people in the type of houses that we need to see. At the moment developers are not building the houses that we desperately need, especially those with adaptations. They're building houses, quite frankly, what they think they can get the most profit off and that's why, again, using the affordable homes grant to build the houses, the social housing, that we need, which we have said we are committed to having the biggest generation of social housing since the post war is, is absolutely crucial to this so that people get the houses they desperately need and, by the way, that is with the new regulations and new housing that comes on board that you don't have to make significant adaptations because you'll be thinking about, how you build houses that are efficient and sustainable into the future that meets people's needs.

EMMA 鈥� It鈥檚 harder to retro fit, isn't

ANGELA 鈥� Exactly

EMMA 鈥� 106 has targets. How will you make developers, How will you make them reach those targets?

ANGELA - We will hold them to account for it. They have not been held to account and many local authorities haven't got the resources or there specialisms to do that. So we will set up a specialist unit within government that will be able to help negotiate 106 notices so we get the best possible deal in the beginning, but also that we hold developers to account, so they can't wriggle out of their obligations.

EMMA -听 OK, now. Let's talk about special educational needs and disability. It鈥檚 something that you will know a lot about as well.

ANGELA 鈥� Yes

EMMA - Now, your manifesto says that Labour will take a community wide approach to improve inclusivity and expertise in mainstream schools and also ensure that special schools cater for those with the most complex needs.

The system feels really difficult. Massive. Massive backlog of money, authorities don鈥� have enough money. What are you going to do about this, if you get into government because there鈥檚 a lot to do?

ANGELA - First of all we have said that we have to review that and make our education system more inclusive. We said we need more qualified teachers in the classroom. We have said we need the school support staff negotiating body, which I am incredibly proud of. I used to do that negotiation when I was a Unison trade union official and that will bring about the support that we need around the classroom for young people. And we need to make sure that people can get that EHCP Plan as quickly as possible and those assessments quickly because it's like the Holy Grail now trying to get an EHCP plan, even just getting your needs assessed and recognised is almost impossible now. So we've got to make sure that the support is in place very early on.

We have talked about mental health support in our schools. So again increasing the amount of support in schools for young people, getting those assessments Early on and making sure that people's needs are met very early on. We will have better outcomes for our young people when they leave education.

EMMA 鈥� Now, there is no funding pledge in your manifesto specifically about this. Where - that's a lot of money involved here. There鈥檚 a huge deficit with all the local authorities, where will the money come from to change things here?

ANGELA 鈥� We鈥檙e going to give them longer term funding settlements which will help local authorities and will be able to bring down some of the costs, again, outer borough placements support for Fostering, support for Children's Services. There is a lot of money going outside with extremely high costs whereas actually if we're able to, for example, have those facilities and bring that support in place, then that will drive down the costs that local authorities are facing at the moment.

EMMA - Let's talk about mental health now. Labour has said you will change legislation. Modernise it so that patients can have greater choice and autonomy. Get more respect and dignity while they're in treatment is this enacting their mental health bill, which has been going on for ages and hasn鈥檛 been听 enacted yet or are you doing something different to that?

ANGELA 鈥� Again, then there's this support in terms of what we could do in taking forward the recommendations of the Mental Health Bill and pushing to actually expand as much as we possibly can, but it's about parity of esteem more than anything.

EMMA 鈥� So mental health, the same physical health. 鈥淧arity of esteem鈥� it鈥檚 a phrase they use all the time, but it just means treating them the same.

ANGELA - I've had, like, I say I've been a carer for my mum since I was about age 10 when I remember really taking on caring responsibilities for my mum and I remember her not being able to get support early on and ended up in crisis and having to be sectioned and that is the most traumatic thing. Not just for me has her child who had to see my mum go through so much. But it was also very costly for the system and it was devastating for my mum. If she had got the care in the community when she needed it early on and taking some of the pressures off her at the time as well, because many people are facing pressures like housing pressures, benefits, as you say, and cost of living are really tipping people over the edge. Giving people support when they need it very early on will prevent us having these crisis's and then when people have to access care, having that parity of esteem and understanding that mental health is as crippling as any physical condition, then hopefully we can really turn the page. You know, culturally, we have made some progress now on mental health conditions.

EMMA - Do we need to bring in the Mental Health Bill, that's been sitting there waiting to go through? Is that what Labour would do?

ANGELA 鈥� We have to push further. We have to push further and I think you have to have hard targets. You have to reform legislation. Where we identify a problem, as I've said in terms of the disability pay gap reporting, but also we have to have a cultural shift. I think that the country is moving and changing and there's been courageous people who have spoken about their mental health, which has really transformed the debate, but I think we need to see much more and that is why our new deal for working people will transform the world of work and we need to see that cultural shift, not just in terms of what we did in terms of the public accessibility, but also about how we can make society more accessible for everybody.

EMMA - We've been with you for around 20 minutes now Angela Rayner. What, in summary, will Labour offer disabled people if they're elected into government after the fourth of July.

ANGELA - In summary, we will offer respect that you deserve, will offer you support, so that you can reach your full potential and we鈥檒l offer compassion and a society that treats everybody as a member of it, who's valued, who can contribute. Because we know our economy, our number one mission, our economy of growth will only happen if we allow everybody to reach their full potential.

EMMA -Angela Rayner. Thank you for joining me.

ANGELA Thank you.

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EMMA - Listening to that interview with Angela Rayner from the Labour Party was Kate Lamble. Kate鈥檚, from our sister podcast More or Less 鈥� which tries to make sense of all the numbers around us. She has been listening to the interview and she has looked at how it all adds up.

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KATE LAMBLE - One thing Angela Rayner mentioned there was that Labour wants to introduce disability pay gap reporting to try and eliminate differences in pay between disabled and non-disabled workers.

Now, mandatory gender pay gap reporting already exists. It was introduced in 2017 for any employer with 250 or more employees. They have to submit the average difference in hourly pay between men and women as well as a more detailed breakdown based on different salary bands and bonus pay.

Now, since this was introduced the gender pay gap has fallen. For full time employees, it went from 9.1% in 2017 to 7.7% in 2023, which seems like a success. But if we look at the Office for National Statistics figures, covering a longer period of time, we can see the gap was already falling significantly before this regulation was introduced. And the biggest gap still remains for the highest paid roles.

So while pay gap reporting might have helped to highlight the inequality, some people have questioned what impact the regulation has actually made to this long term trend.

There is though some research which suggests it initially had a modest Impact. It compared companies with just enough employees to have to report this data with a control group of those just small enough not to have to deal with it. And it found that, in the first few years of the policy being introduced, there was a 1.6% point increase in women's hourly wages relative to those of men.

Now in their sample, that accounted for just under a fifth of the total gap.

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EMMA 鈥� Thank you so much to Angela Rayner for talking to me. I have spoken to representatives from six of the seven main UK political parties all about disability and mental health .And those episodes will drop, right here, over the next few days. Please stay tuned and you can get in touch with us in the usual ways. You can email accessall@bbc.co.uk, and you鈥檒l find us on Instagram and X @bbcaccessall

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