听

10th September 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 124

Presented by Emma Tracey

听

听

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello listeners. What are you watching on TV at the moment? Because I鈥檝e been a bit taken in by a series of documentaries that are on 大象传媒 One and 大象传媒 iPlayer just now, and they鈥檙e called In My Own Words. And basically they are a selection of artists and writers and comedians and poets talking about what鈥檚 shaped their extraordinary lives really. Now, there are a couple of episodes that did particularly grab my attention, because I鈥檓 always looking for the disability in everything, but one is with Billy Connolly who has Parkinson鈥檚, and the one that we鈥檙e going to be talking about today which is Alison Lapper. It follows her as she launches her new exhibition Lost in Parys, which tells the life story of her son Parys, who died at the age of 19. And just a note that this episode talks about some difficult subjects like grief and the loss of a child.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You might remember a sculpture of a naked pregnant woman with a limb difference that was on the fourth plinth in Trafalgar Square in London for two years from 2005. It provoked mixed reactions at the time:

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think people will look at it and say why is it here, what dumbo decided to put it around here.

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 a very super sculpture and it certainly should be somewhere, but not in Trafalgar Square. It鈥檚 not what Nelson would have wanted to look at [laughs].

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I mean it is shocking, it is quite a shock, but it also does make you think, doesn鈥檛 it?

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 think children need to see a pregnant naked woman on display.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 The woman depicted in that sculpture was disabled artist, Alison Lapper, who has no arms and paints with her mouth and her feet. Alison was expecting her son, Parys, at the time when the sculpture was being created. Parys sadly died five years ago at the age of 19 following serious mental health problems. Alison Lapper鈥檚 latest exhibition, Lost in Parys, tells Parys鈥� life story. And a new 大象传媒 documentary follows Alison as she launches the exhibition and tells her life story. Alison is with me now. It is such an honour to speak to you, Alison, having followed your story and Parys鈥� story for over 20 years. Thank you for joining me. How are you doing today?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 all right. I have good days. I still have my really sick sense of humour and my wicked sense of humour and fun. But I鈥檓 a grieving mother and there are some days I don鈥檛 want to do anything. So, it鈥檚 a constant battle with right, I鈥檝e got to get up and do this, I need to work, I need to get on with things. So, yeah, on the whole I鈥檓 okay. I have good days, I鈥檓 sure like everybody, and I have bad days.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And today鈥檚 an okay day?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And today is actually quite a nice day, yeah, I鈥檝e had a nice day today.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We started with the sculpture. I just wanted to ask you, do people still talk to you about the sculpture? How do you feel about the sculpture now?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I love the sculpture. I mean, I, and even at the time people going on about vulgar Trafalgar and it鈥檚 disgusting, and she shouldn鈥檛 be naked and pregnant and disabled and single parent, you know, it鈥檚 just like mind your business. It鈥檚 not your business. Someone said, what would Nelson think. Who cares what Nelson thinks? He鈥檚 dead! Do you know what I mean? He鈥檚 up another 50ft higher than I was, so what does it matter? And people are, oh what has she done to deserve to be on the fourth plinth.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It would still be such a statement if it went up now though.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 so different to anything else that it鈥檚 still as different as it was then.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And I think that鈥檚 why, for a lot of reasons, it doesn鈥檛 go up is because people are still so uncomfortable with the whole concept and with disability. Marc doesn鈥檛 look at myself or anybody else that he did the sculptures around as disabled. He says you鈥檙e heroes and heroines and that you battle through this and you鈥檝e got a life. And I think that that is a really positive way to look at it. And it鈥檚 such a shame that the rest of 鈥� I鈥檓 not accusing everybody of course 鈥� but it would be lovely if we could all just forget about our differences and just be more accepting of each other. Why are disabled people still at the bottom of the pile? And so what if their care needs to be paid for by somebody because they can鈥檛 afford it themselves? They have a right to a decent life; that鈥檚 all they鈥檙e asking for. They鈥檙e not asking for gold-plated toilets.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Never seen one of those.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 No.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 The documentary is called In My Own Words and it really does cover all of your life, from being taken into care, being in residential special school. What did you want the documentary to say? What were the words you wanted to say?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 know. I think because I was so emotionally involved in the exhibition and trying to get that up and working on it, I didn鈥檛 really grieve properly or I haven鈥檛 for Parys. I realised that I鈥檇 kind of just gone back to work and was just going through the motions, and really was almost pretending that it hadn鈥檛 happened because it was so horrific. And then, I don鈥檛 know, Parys just started to appear in my paintings and on my canvases. I started painting again and it鈥檚 like his face just kept coming through, and it didn鈥檛 matter what I did or if I tried to cover it up, his face would just be there and he鈥檇 just be staring back at me. And I was just like okay, so maybe you want me to do something with this, maybe there is a lot more about this that should be said and talked about than it has been. And I realised that that was where I needed to go with my artwork so that鈥檚 what I did. It wasn鈥檛 a conscious decision in that respect.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, the exhibition happened organically really. And then there鈥檚 the documentary which is all about you really. I mean, there鈥檚 loads and loads of lovely Parys in it.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But it鈥檚 your life. There was so much from when you were younger on TV talking about sex and about work and about being really busy and having loads of fun:

[Clip]

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Background music: Hot Chocolate, You Sexy Thing] It鈥檚 only been the last five, six years that I can actually say I feel sexy. And for a while I met mad with it because I thought, yeah, power, because it鈥檚 really one of the very first times I鈥檇 actually had power over my own being. So, to actually have this freedom was incredible.

[End of clip]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That was a joyous part for me of the documentary to see how independent you were and how sure you were of things, even back in the 鈥�70s and 鈥�80s, 鈥�80s and 鈥�90s I suppose when those clips were out. So, what did you want the documentary鈥�

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, you were right the first time, 鈥�70s [laughter].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What did you want people to know about you?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 think I actually wanted them to know about me. I think it鈥檚 this whole thing again about disability being represented in a positive way, and we鈥檙e not all sitting at home feeling sorry for ourselves not having a life, you know. Most disabled people or differently-able people, whatever the correct word is these days, it was more about you just get on with it. Life is for living and for doing. I don鈥檛 know many people that don鈥檛 get on with it really. And we were encouraged even in care 鈥� although I don鈥檛 quite know why they encouraged us because they didn鈥檛 think we鈥檇 ever be out of care 鈥� but it was always you鈥檝e got to learn to do it yourself, you need to be independent. Because in the 鈥�80s when I did come out of care and whatever there wasn鈥檛 any PAs that would come and help you during the day; that wasn鈥檛 even thought of, there was no money for that. So, if you wanted to live on your own you had to be able to do absolutely everything for yourself.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And you went to university, got a first class degree in fine art. And then you became a single mum from the very start鈥�

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥o Parys. You talk in the documentary about the constant scrutiny that you faced as a disabled parent. And one of the biggest examples that came out for me was when you talked about how someone had sent a report to social services because your three year-old had pulled you over. I mean, that鈥檚 a disabled person鈥檚 worst nightmare, isn鈥檛 it?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It certainly is. I got accused of sexually abusing Parys because I washed him with my feet. He was a little baby, I mean, how else did they think I was going to keep him clean and wash him and dress him. That was with my feet and with my mouth. I had to do that. And able-bodied people would come in and go, yes we鈥檙e here to facilitate you. You鈥檙e not; you鈥檙e here to spy on me and to see actually where I鈥檓 going wrong or where you think I鈥檓 going wrong and what I should really be doing. And that report all came out of the fact that Parys put his arms around me and I fell backwards onto a step. He didn鈥檛 hurt me, it didn鈥檛 hurt him, we were fine, but that whole thing. And I gave him a doughnut because he didn鈥檛 want any lunch but I thought it was better that he had a doughnut than nothing to eat when he went to nursery. So, you know.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. Well, why so much scrutiny do you think? And how did you deal with it all?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Because I鈥檓 disabled, you know, we are useless, helpless, rubbish at everything we do. Society doesn鈥檛 realise that I work, that I paid exorbitant amounts of tax; they don鈥檛 realise that I drive, own my own home, you know, I work. And it鈥檚 like why do we not think that people with disabilities don鈥檛 work and that we鈥檙e all sitting at home sponging off society? Why?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, when you had a child people felt that it was their right to watch you. But you also put yourself and Parys in the public eye because there was the sculpture first when he was still in your tummy.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And then there was Child Of Our Time which featured you and Parys, and it was a documentary series which followed a selection of children who were born in 2000. How did all that media attention come about? And what kind of impact did it have on your lives?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think to begin with, I mean, there were two reasons. One, I stupidly thought that if it鈥檚 out there about my mothering and how I thought I was a pretty good mother on the whole, and that it was all out there on film that nobody could accuse me of doing anything to Parys 鈥� as we since know that did actually happen twice. But I thought it was my security blanket to show that I can do this, I can be the best mum I can possibly be for Parys. And probably 120% better than a lot of parents because we have to prove that we can do this. Social services are looking over your shoulder the whole time, waiting for you to make that fatal mistake, or that they think is a fatal mistake. And I just needed to put it out there that Parys was safe with me and that he was my life, I loved him, I still do, more than anything or anybody in the whole world. He was my centre of my universe, and his wellbeing came even before mine. And most mothers will say that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What was he like? What was his personality? What was he into?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 What was he into? Well, when he was younger, I mean he was always very funny 鈥� and I鈥檓 sure mums always say this 鈥� he was very protective of me, particularly as he got older. And I tried to get him to relax about that and that it wasn鈥檛 his job to protect me. He was very into his games and all those electronics. I mean I really didn鈥檛 understand half of them. He used to say to me, 鈥楳um, come and play this with me鈥�, and I鈥檓 like, 鈥楶arys, I haven鈥檛 got enough toes on this foot to even press half the buttons, never mind about all of them鈥�.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] I鈥檓 having the exact conversations with my boys, 鈥楥ome and play with me鈥�.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I can鈥檛.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. When did you realise that Parys鈥� mental health was starting to become tricky for him? And was there any sort of trigger or any change?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I realised quite early on that he was quite a sensitive bunny.

[Clip]

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Parys scores high on the neuroticism trait.

PARYS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Maths I鈥檓 really rubbish. Science I鈥檓 rubbish at. Geography I鈥檓 rubbish at. PE I鈥檓 not really good at that. I like home time and play time and lunchtime, but everything else just sucks.

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Alison has noticed his anxiety.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 He doesn鈥檛 have a very high self-esteem, which I stupidly always thought that I could give him.

PARYS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 great having a famous mum, but the downside is that I don鈥檛 have much privacy.

[End of clip]

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 What I didn鈥檛 realise is the impact that it would have on him at the time. So, you鈥檇 be trying to kind of jolly them up, and that鈥檚 not actually the right thing to do. But if nobody teaches you this or helps you you鈥檙e very on your own. I could see he was struggling. He wouldn鈥檛 go to school, he didn鈥檛 want to see anybody, he didn鈥檛 want to be anywhere.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What do you do rather than jolly them up then? What is the right thing?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛鈥 wish I was a psychiatrist because maybe I鈥檇 know. But you have to understand, you have to be there and love them. I mean, all I could give Parys was my love, that鈥檚 all I could really do. I realised I couldn鈥檛 make him feel better; I wasn鈥檛 capable of doing that from one human being to another because the only person that makes you happy is yourself.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And he couldn鈥檛 go to school, was that anxiety?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Anxiety.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But it got really tough for him near the end, didn鈥檛 it?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. When his mental health really started to go he got very, very sick. And people don鈥檛 see mental health as being sick. Well, you are. He was incapable of even getting himself into a shower, never mind about tidying his room and doing all the other things. They moved him 18 times in his last year of life.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Because he was in care, wasn鈥檛 he?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 He went back. He wasn鈥檛 in care until he was about 17 when he had to be sectioned.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Right.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And they told me that basically I wouldn鈥檛 be able to cope with him 鈥� again 鈥� and that he would be safer if he was looked after because of his mental health, and by this time drug addiction and what have you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And did you agree with that?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Not at all. I mean, I had PAs working for me, because when I was 42 I started needing PAs for myself. So, obviously we always had people in the house as well. And I had to choose: them, to be able to live my life and get dressed and work and do all the rest of it and pay the bills, or Parys. And they were like, we鈥檙e not going to do this if Parys is around because he鈥檚 dangerous.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, your PAs said that?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Not in so many words, but it was indicated that he was becoming a danger to me and to other people around because of the drugs. And yeah, at times he was. But at the end of the day 鈥� and I always stand by this 鈥� he was my son. He shouldn鈥檛 have died alone. He was supposed to be being watched and taken care of and, you know, it didn鈥檛 happen.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And did he want to be with you, Alison?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Of course he wanted to be with me. He was a real mummy鈥檚 boy, and he always used to say 鈥楳uds 鈥� he used to call me Muds 鈥� can I come home?鈥� And I was like, 鈥楧arling if I didn鈥檛 think I was going to lose my PAs I鈥檇 have you home in a heartbeat鈥�. But then how would I have got鈥e wasn鈥檛 in any fit state to help me, although he was able-bodied, but he was actually less able than I am, if you like, because of the mental health and, as I say, because of the addiction. He wouldn鈥檛 have been able. I wouldn鈥檛 have been able to help him in certain ways, but also he wouldn鈥檛 have been capable of helping me. Whereas up until his mental health got really bad Parys was really good; he鈥檇 sit on the side of my wheelchair and put his legs across my lap sideways with his arm around me, and he鈥檇 help. If we were shopping and we needed food, you know, we were a partnership.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, it鈥檚 a natural thing that you do.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. People say children shouldn鈥檛 look after their disabled parents, but I was already capable of having PAs and looking after myself mostly, and Parys just did the little bits that when we were on our own. And of course we loved that because it was our time.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And he even says in the documentary as part of Child Of Our Time he wanted to have time with you by himself.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, it was really important.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, the exhibition also explores your grief and your sadness at losing Parys. How did you show that? I know you say you maybe haven鈥檛 grieved fully even yet, but how did you show it in the exhibition and how are you dealing with it?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I haven鈥檛 really dealt with it properly. I mean, I鈥檓 just beginning to after five years. And the exhibition for me was a lot about Parys just kept appearing, and I just kept thinking maybe he does want me to say something. Because when he first died, well for the first five years, I just wanted to not be here; I wanted to be with Parys. I know there鈥檚 no guarantee that I would be with him, because we don鈥檛 know beyond the grave, but I didn鈥檛 want to be here. It didn鈥檛 feel like it was worthwhile at all. But then as I started painting again, I don鈥檛 know, it was almost like Parys was kind of urging me on, come on Muds, you鈥檝e got stuff to say, you need to talk about this.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You put his clothes out.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You did so many things. It鈥檚 a very open exhibition. Do you have any advice for parents going through anything similar yet?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You need to do whatever feels right for you as a grieving parent. And whoever says it鈥檚 going to be over in four years or it鈥檚 all going to feel better, it doesn鈥檛 feel better. My son is dead. He is not going to walk through that door any second now, whether I want him to or not. So, at the end of the day I鈥檓 here alone now without Parys, and it鈥檚 bloody hard. I miss him. I want him to be here. Because if we were doing this about something else he would be with me, I know he would, because even though he鈥檇 be 24 now he鈥檇 still be like, oh Muds, can I come with you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 He said he wanted to be a cameraman as well, a photographer.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, he鈥檇 probably be out there through the glass taking photos of you.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely. He grew up around that. And we just were a good team together.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We mentioned already, you were watching archive footage of yourself and your family as part of the documentary, and one of the pieces of footage that you saw was the interview done with your mother in 2022 when she talked about her feelings when she had you, about lack of contact in the early years:

[Clip]

MOTHER-听听听听听听听听听听 I didn鈥檛 ask for her to be born like that. And I wish she hadn鈥檛 have been [laughs] you know what I mean, god forbid.

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听听 Do you think in hindsight things would have been different had she been adopted?

MOTHER-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, yeah, because somebody would鈥檝e loved her, wouldn鈥檛 they? Obviously she wasn鈥檛 getting it off me.

[End of clip]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 How did that interview affect you? And was it the first time you鈥檇 seen it?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I always knew that she struggled to love me, that she struggled to be around me; that鈥檚 why I was obviously taken away. She did have a breakdown herself because she was told that she had given birth to a monster and that the monster was going to die. But of course I didn鈥檛, I鈥檓 still here. So, I get it. But I don鈥檛 understand, having had my own child, I don鈥檛 understand how you can鈥檛 love a child. But I鈥檝e also now realised that the child could be able-bodied, it could be anything, and there are some mothers, fathers, parents that just can鈥檛 deal with that. And it鈥檚 probably more to do with them than it is you as the child, if you see what I mean. But when she said, her first words were, 鈥榃ell, I didn鈥檛 love her and I didn鈥檛 want her anyway鈥� my jaw, I think you can see it on film, dropped. Because although I already knew that, I鈥檝e heard it before, it鈥檚 still a shock because the one person that you were always brought up to believe is that your mother will always love you no matter what. And that鈥檚 not true, that is not realistic in this lifetime. For lots of people it isn鈥檛 realistic. But I would have stood on my head in the Amazon to make her proud, but there would have been no point.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, because there are a few scenes in the documentary where you鈥檙e talking to her on the phone, just having had Parys. And that鈥檚 hard to watch as well.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Because it鈥檚 quibbling over his name.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But one thing you have done is set up the Drug of Art. What is that?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 The Drug of Art I set up with a colleague, she鈥檚 a friend and we did the documentary together. And basically it鈥檚 about introducing young people to art and how it can actually help you go through a mental health journey. I鈥檓 not saying it cures it or anything like that, but if you can do something that鈥檚 creative and something that is totally yours, we鈥檝e even laughed about going, well if you want to be literally hidden under the stairs in a cupboard to draw or make something creative, you should be able to do that. It should be your time and you should have that freedom to do that. And obviously creating, I don鈥檛 think about much when I鈥檓 creating because I鈥檓 too busy. I鈥檓 right in the moment, I鈥檓 right there, that鈥檚 where I鈥檓 at. If I could somehow be like that even more I would be a lot happier because I wouldn鈥檛 be thinking about the bills, I wouldn鈥檛 be thinking about what I鈥檓 doing next week, missing Parys, you know.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e somewhere else.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 your therapy.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, it鈥檚 your safety as well.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. You said at the beginning of the documentary, I love this, art in the strands of your hair, you鈥檙e just art, it鈥檚 all over you and throughout you. What is the future? What鈥檚 next for you artistically and personally as well?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think artistically I am now, obviously having lost my son, I am really interested in this whole the way that we grieve, the way that we don鈥檛 talk about it. The one guarantee in life is we鈥檙e all going to die, and we don鈥檛 talk about that, we don鈥檛 discuss it, we don鈥檛 think about it particularly. And we need to be a lot more open. Death unfortunately is part of life, and I think as a nation we鈥檙e so clammed up about it and illness and mental health, it鈥檚 almost a stigma. And the stigma that Parys died from an accidental drug overdose. If it was something else it would have been tragic; but it鈥檚 almost like I have to carry a little bit of that shame. I mean, I refuse to do it but鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Society says.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, why should society tell me how to feel about what happened? I carry enough grief as a mother and guilt already, I don鈥檛 need society to give me any more.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, you want to explore that a bit more?

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檇 love to yeah, really, really explore that and go and see what happens. What does it feel like? What is it like to lose the best thing that ever happened to you and going through that process? I just want to be open about it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Alison Lapper, In My Own Words is on 大象传媒 iPlayer now. Alison, thank you so much for speaking to me. It鈥檚 been an absolute honour.

ALISON-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you. Thank you very much for listening.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 As you heard there, Alison was deeply disturbed by the attitude of social services at the end of Parys鈥� life. The coroner who investigated his death acknowledged her concerns but said there appeared to be no provision for people who choose not to engage. If you have been affected by any of the subjects discussed in this episode visit the 大象传媒 Action Line for links to organisations offering support.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you for listening to this episode. If you like what you hear please subscribe to us on 大象传媒 Sounds. And get in touch, we鈥檙e on email accessall@bbc.co.uk. And we are @大象传媒AccessAll on Instagram and X, formerly known as Twitter. See you soon. Bye.

听

听

听

听