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1st October 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 127

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, this is Access All and I’m Emma Tracey. And this is a very, very exciting episode. It’s very different to what we usually bring you. We’ve been keeping a lot of secrets in Access All over the last few weeks because recently I got the opportunity to visit the MI5 headquarters and I spoke to one of their senior intelligence officers. We’re calling him Liam, and that’s not his real name, and Liam’s autistic. And he tells us about the realities of working with the security services when you’re neurodivergent. So, you’ll hear that interview with Liam, and then I will speak to the ´óÏó´«Ã½â€™s security correspondent, Gordon Corera, about MI5.

Now, before we get on to the chat with Liam let me tell you how this interview came about. Arranging it took about nine months and involved conversations about what could be broadcast, which would provide insight into the intelligence agency without putting national security at risk. I met with Liam who was put forward by MI5, and it was agreed that Liam’s words would be voiced by an actor. So, the voice that you will hear is that of Matthew McCloud. Right, here we go, here’s that chat with Liam.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Liam, you are so, so welcome to Access All.

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you very much. It’s really great to be here and thank you so much for your interest in this topic.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I am so interested and I am so excited, I’m honestly just trying to keep it at bay to make myself look a bit more professional. Did you always want to work at MI5?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I thought of a range of things when I was growing up. I was very interested in being in the military, but I really felt kind of drawn to this work.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, I know you can’t tell me exactly what you do in MI5, but what skills do you bring to it? I mean, in a kind of vague way even can you tell me what kinds of skills you have and what you studied?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was recruited in as what’s called a generalist. What I have is the ability to acquire and use various different analytical skills in a variety of roles. So, sometimes I worked in our investigative kind of more mission focused roles, other times I’ve worked in our more kind of policy and internal security and project roles.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And are there disabled people and neurodivergent people in all of the areas, like the officers who support the agents and the people who have to go out into the fields, would you say that there’s representation in all of those areas?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, I’ve done it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, I mean, what can I ask you? Was it really fun? What was the main thing that being neurodivergent helped you with going out to the field to support agents?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That hyper focus and attention to detail was certainly I think a strength in that environment. I’ve also got a fairly good memory, which I think was also quite helpful in that environment too, because obviously when you’re out and about you don’t have the access to a lot of our materials that we have in the office, so being able to remember I found quite useful.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Liam, I think when you say you have a fairly good memory I think you mean you have a very, very good memory?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You know, it’s not as good as it was when I was young. At one point I was almost photographic with my memory, but that has passed now I’m afraid.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’ve been there for many years. You’ve done really, really well, you’ve progressed quite a lot. You weren’t diagnosed until much later in your career. But often disabled people worry that they go into an organisation, even somewhere like the ´óÏó´«Ã½ or any big organisation, and that they won’t be able to move forward. Have you seen neurodivergent and disabled people progress up the ladder?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Just so we’re really clear, I actually became a senior manager in MI5 after I had been diagnosed as autistic. So, from my own experience my biggest significant career developments have happened after I worked out I was neurodiverse.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can we talk about your diagnosis journey while working at MI5, is that okay? How did you start thinking about maybe I’m neurodiverse, and particularly in relation to work?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It really kind of cumulated in, I guess, a tipping point, or a breaking point really is probably a more accurate description. I was starting to really struggle really absorbing so much information that was being thrown at me. And then one day – excuse me, it’s quite challenging to talk about.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Of course.

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Clears throat] one day I was sat at my desk and I was chairing a meeting, my phone was going off, I had loads of messages, I had loads of papers and there was so much I guess I had a kind of sensory overload. I was really tired and I started to have a terrible headache that then turned into quite a bad migraine. I sort of stopped doing what I was doing and decided it would be a good idea to splash some water all over my face. So, I got up and then as I started making my way to the bathroom I started losing the ability to see; the migraine was affecting my vision. So, I had to stop and then fortunately some very kind colleagues came and rescued me and looked after me. But it had a really quite significant impact on me and I was off work for some time because I subsequently discovered that what that was was an autistic burnout.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. So, after you were off work with autistic burnout, so you had just come to your limit and it had culminated in physical health issues, what happened next?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I knew that something awful had happened and it had made me feel really rubbish, so I got a lot of support through our occupational health teams here and the wellbeing teams. And through them they organised counselling for me with people through the organisation so I could talk freely with them. And that was incredibly helpful because it was through that process where we explored a range of things, whether it was stress, anxiety interlinked, which it probably was interlinked to the autistic element of it and the neurodiversity. But from there through the office I was organised to see some neurodiverse coaches, which further then helped me understand the fact that I was neurodiverse. But it was a really challenging perspective. I mean, it was kind of interesting because I had actually got a child that was autistic, and I hadn’t seen the connection, even though we are quite similar in those ways.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, your child had been diagnosed before all this?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Correct, yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right. That’s really interesting.

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Really interesting. But the honest truth is that when I was off work, and I struggled being off work because I couldn’t really do much and I was so tired, but what was on my mind was whether or not I’d be capable of coming back, and if I could come back how would I be viewed. I guess my strength had always been my reliability, and I was really worried coming back would people see me as the reliable person anymore; was I even that reliable person anymore.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And are you? Was it okay?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s a complicated question and the short answer is yes, it was more than okay. And that was because when I started to come back into work we actually had a staff network group for neurodiverse individuals, as well as the support through wellbeing and the coaching to the neurodiversity coaches. And my engagement with them was hugely important because it started to show me that there were lots of neurodiverse individuals within the organisation, and that actually in order to be able to function what I needed to do was kind of build around myself a proper supporting scaffolding structure to allow me to work in a slightly different way, but to do so in a way that was healthy for me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what was the different way that you had to work?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I realised through my neurodiversity that I often take things quite literally. So, if someone says something like, we need this done straightaway, or this or we need this done now, I would go and do that work straightaway and I would keep working till it was done.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Whereas now to ask a question, okay: so, if we say this is a priority for us is this something that we need to be done by the end of today or is it by the end of the week, or is it in a month’s time. I also work on one thing at a time. In an effort to be efficient I would be listening in to a meeting, and at the same time I would be reading emails, and at the same time I’d also be thinking about what I would want to write in a report that I was writing. I would be doing multiple things at once; whereas now I try to not do that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And your work in MI5 does your brain working differently do you see that as an asset? Is it a really good thing for the job that you do? Is it a really good thing for autistic and neurodivergent people in the organisation?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When I first joined the office someone explained to me intelligence work is like a jigsaw puzzle, and the different ways we collect intelligence allows us to get the different pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. Getting the jigsaw puzzle right can mean the difference between helping save people’s lives and protecting national security. So, this is why I think neurodiversity is really important because it allows us to have a range of different people that could all have different experiences and ways of viewing the world so that we can see different images being formed in that jigsaw picture.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And why have you decided to speak about neurodivergence and working for MI5? How are you hoping it will help? Or are you doing it for yourself? What’s going on?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý In full honesty I was initially quite reluctant to do this. It’s not something I’ve ever done before and it’s not something I ever thought I would do. Whilst my natural reluctance was there it was overweighed by the fact that the benefits that I thought this could bring in talking about how important and how valued neurodiverse people are at MI5 kind of outweighed my natural reluctance for public speaking.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, what can you tell me about other colleagues’ experiences in MI5 then?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, we’ve got a range of people with different neurodiversities. So, we’ve got some people that are on the ADHD side, some autistic, some highly sensitive. So, there is a real range of people and they all bring their own strengths to it. And there’s people that work in a whole range of different roles at MI5 I’ve had the fortune to speak to and encounter; they’re all bringing their own unique perspectives and strengths to that range of different areas.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know a lot of autistic people and neurodivergent people who really struggle to keep secrets and they struggle at keeping anything to themselves, but you must not be one of those people. I mean, what did you tell family and friends? You’ve been there for a long time, you’re obviously very, very good at that now. But was it a struggle or it is your superpower?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] I don’t know whether it’s my superpower, I often keep and take in a lot of information. The keeping of secrets has never been an issue for me. I mean, I did speak to my mother and father about it and my wife knows, and that’s about the extent of it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have to ask this, Liam: is working for MI5 as glamorous as it looks on the telly or in novels? Do you get to go to these amazing locations? Do you have this amazing tech? Is it as cool and as glamorous as they make it look?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay so [laughs] I have done things, fortunate things in working for MI5 that I would never have got to do anywhere else in the world. I have travelled overseas; I have done mission work that I think has had a real positive impact and saved people’s lives essentially.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Liam, when you work at MI5 can you have a normal life outside of it? Do you get calls at odd hours? How do you deal with family and friends?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You know, yes, depending on the role. I’ve been contacted outside the office and had to deal with that, other times I haven’t. But I have a family and social life and it hasn’t impeded me in doing that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And because you have to be so secretive about the work you do with the people you know is there quite a friendly internal culture?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. I really love the office. I have been here for a long time. I am lucky to work with amazing, talented, kind people. We have a network group and our executive committee held a neurodiversity week.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What do you organise?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A series of talks, people talking about their experiences, if they were neurodiverse. There was also space to talk about issues such as if you have neurodiverse children, and we had guest speakers.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, so if you have guest speakers how do you organise that? I mean, what do you tell them? Are they internal people? And if you have social events – this is what I really want to know – is there a special pub?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re asking me if there is an MI5 pub.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is there an MI5 pub?

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I can neither confirm nor deny whether there is an MI5 pub.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

MUSIC-

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That was Liam, a senior intelligence officer at MI5, who’s autistic and told us about his experience of working for the agency. Now joining me is the ´óÏó´«Ã½â€™s security correspondent Gordon Corera. Hi Gordon.

GORDON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, nice to be with you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, it’s nice to have you in. It’s nice to have an expert on board, honestly.

GORDON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] supposedly.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, so that was really, really interesting talking about Liam’s experiences working in MI5. But can I go back to basics, there are three agencies, aren’t there? What are they and what do they do?

GORDON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s a good question and lots of people get a bit confused about them. There are three intelligence agencies or three big ones in the UK I should say: MI5, the one we’ve just heard about, which is the domestic security service. So, that does things like investigate terrorist threats in the UK, or foreign spies who are operating inside the UK. Then there’s MI6, as it's popularly known, it’s also called SIS, the Security Intelligence Service. That operates overseas recruiting agents who are going to provide intelligence, say, about Iran’s nuclear programme, or what’s going on inside Russia, or things in China. And then there’s GCHQ based out in Cheltenham, which grew up as the, if you like, collecting communications data, intercepting communications, whether it was radio or now the internet. So, you associate it with the kind of digital and cyberworld and communication specifically, again, mainly around the world rather than the UK. So, those are the three intelligence agencies.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, so UK, worldwide and the geeky one.

GORDON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] that’s how some people put it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Cybersecurity one.

GORDON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They’re all getting more geeky though, which is one of the interesting things about it, because I think they all need to know a bit more tech than there used to be. So, some of the old stereotypes have gone, but I think some are still there about the differences between them.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s interesting because maybe them becoming more sort of computer, internet heavy in how they do things might reflect the types of people that they bring in. I mean, you’ve been around all three agencies for some years now, Gordon, what have you noticed or seen around the numbers of disabled people? Obviously every disability isn’t visible, but the numbers in each of the agencies, or has anything jumped out at you?

GORDON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Having been around the agencies certainly visibly when you walk round them GCHQ would present as having more people with a disability that you can see. I think that’s been the case for many years. It partly goes back to its roots, some of its traditions and the sense in which it’s looking for people often who have neurodiversity.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Alan Turing was we think now autistic, don’t we?

GORDON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, and certainly fits in that category as we now would understand it. And I think that is a reflection that sometimes those ways of seeing the world were particularly in GCHQ. Other forms of diversity perhaps in some of the agencies, in MI5 I would say always looked more diverse in terms of ethnic background for instance, and has had more women in senior positions, but less has been said or known about the issues of disability there. Which is why I think what you’ve done is very interesting to try and explore that, because there’s not something that there’s much about that I’ve seen in the past.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý MI5 comes across as really glamorous when you watch it on the TV or you read the books, the novels, the many, many novels. But are the agencies still bound by the same employment law and the same stuff around reasonable adjustments and around access to work, so making sure you’ve got all your tech and that kind of thing?

GORDON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely. They are UK employers. They’re part, if you like, of the civil service, particularly in MI5. MI6 and GCHQ come under the Foreign Office, but those same obligations exist there. And there have been intelligence and security committee reports, so those are the kind of oversight body reports. And there was a few years ago and it did say that neurodivergent and disabled staff working for MI5 had some problems accessing their software to enable them to do their jobs. That’s the kind of thing though which MI5 would then have looked at and have worked to deal with.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I wonder if they’ve ever tapped into the fact that disability potentially could be used to an intelligence officer’s advantage, that being a disabled spy could be really helpful. For example – I mean this is 25 years ago, the world has probably moved on quite a lot – but when I used to go to festivals as a teenager and a blind person my bag was very gently checked; they would be so afraid of me, the security people, that they would kind of open the top of it and have a quick look and then, yeah, yeah go on, you’re grand, you’re grand, you’re grand. But I just wondered if maybe that would be an advantage; maybe I could have been a good spy.

GORDON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] maybe you could’ve been. It’s a really good question, whether you can get to place and do things and talk to people in a way that others can’t requires an intelligence service’s creativity and maybe thinking in different ways. And you’re right, having a different perspective, a different background, and maybe being treated in a different way, as you said, maybe could carry advantages. It’s a good question, and it does make you wonder whether they’ve tapped into that and whether they’ve used it. But here’s the problem: I think if they have they might not tell us [laughter].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No. Well, I mean Chris McCausland who’s a blind comedian who’s on Strictly Come Dancing at the moment, he’s always talked about – whether it’s true or not again – he got down to the last 30 when applying for MI5. He said that his eyesight was the final barrier. But again, could be just a story.

GORDON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But I think that’s really interesting. And I think it brought me to thinking are there any well-known disabled people who have worked for the MI5 or the other agencies?

GORDON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, definitely in GCHQ, as I said Alan Turing is an interesting example about someone who’d be neurodivergent. In MI6 there’s an interesting story about the very first chief who was a guy called Mansfield Cumming, and Mansfield Cumming actually lost his leg in a car crash while he was chief of MI6 during the First World War. He would then go around Whitehall, so the government offices, on a scooter. And I think there is a reference in MI6 now I think still to a group calling itself Scooter, which is trying to improve awareness of disability, which I assume is a little reference to that first chief, Mansfield Cumming, going around on his scooter.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I love that. And Richard Moore, chief of MI6?

GORDON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s right, yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Still chief, his wife is blind apparently so he’s probably got quite a lot of understanding as well of disability within the agencies, which I think is a positive thing. I also read a great story about a woman called Virginia Hall. Have you heard of her?

GORDON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. An American I think, is that right?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

GORDON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý From the Second World War era.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. So, she’s from the US, she worked for the British in World War 2 in France and she organised resistance. And she had a prosthetic that she called Cuthbert. I love that story. It’s so fun, isn’t it?

GORDON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] yeah it is, it is. But yes, I think Richard Moore at MI6 has definitely been very vocal in talking about that importance of being open to different people and welcoming them. And, as you said, partly because of his own background and his wife. So, I think there is much more openness in talking about it, but I think that’s also a recognition there is still work to do there in the intelligence community which has in the past been quite closed and quite separate.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, Gordon Corera, ´óÏó´«Ã½â€™s security correspondent, thank you so much for taking some time out of your currently very busy schedule to chat to us about this.

GORDON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s a pleasure. Thank you very much for asking.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I for one am very, very glad that that episode is out in the world because I do struggle to keep secrets, and that was a very long secret to keep. Phew! Anyway, please get in touch with us if you have thoughts about this or anything else. You know I absolutely love to hear from you whatever you want to say, whatever’s going on in your life, whatever you want to tell me please do contact me. So, our email is accessall@bbc.co.uk. You can find us on the socials, we’re on Instagram and on X, formerly known as Twitter, and we are @´óÏó´«Ã½AccessAll. Or you can send us a voice message or a text message on the WhatsApp, we’re on 0330 123 9480, and please pop the word Access before your message because it does make it easier to find. Subscribe to us, if you haven’t already, on ´óÏó´«Ã½ Sounds and you can find us on 5 Live in the middle of the night. See you next week. Bye.

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