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8th October 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 128

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, actor Ash Self is here. Hi, Ash.

ASH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hiya.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ash plays Felix in Netflix’s hugely successful LGBTQ+ drama Heartstopper. And Ash is definitely the first disabled trans guy I have ever seen in a drama series. What was it like to be in such a big hit, Ash?

ASH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Massively intimidating if I’m honest. When they announced the casting I hadn’t altered my notifications yet, and my phone almost buzzed itself off the table.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] were people very excited for you?

ASH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think a lot of people were excited to get a transmasculine character, and I think people were excited for some visible disabled representation as well, which is nice.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, you’re pretty niche, to be fair. Heartstopper is centred around the same-sex relationship between Nick and Charlie, and in this season Charlie’s eating disorder comes to the fore. We’re going to talk about that more later in the programme. But what’s your take on how Heartstopper covered this really sensitive subject?

ASH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think they did it really well. When I was sent the scripts last year I found them quite difficult to read, but having watched it now I think Alice did a fantastic job. I think Joe did an unbelievable job.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, Joe’s the actor who plays Charlie, and Alice is the writer?

ASH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. It felt very real and very sensitive, and they’re very honest about how hard it can be to get help in this country with an eating disorder.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why was it so difficult to read those scripts?

ASH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Just from personal experience with helping someone with an eating disorder. I think it’s because it was so well written and Alice had done such a great job that I was like, oh that feels a bit real. But actually on screen it’s fantastic.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do we think there’s going to be any more Heartstopper, Ash Self?

ASH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I genuinely don’t know. I would like there to be, and I would like Felix to reappear and annoy everyone some more.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I hope that Felix reappears again. And hopefully we can see you on Access All. Thank you so much, Ash Self.

ASH-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, I’m Emma Tracey and this is Access All, the podcast that listens to you and unashamedly whisks the most important disability and mental health stories right to the top of the queue. And I’m disabled myself so I know all about queue jumping. You should have seen me in the airport the other day, right at the top. This season of Netflix LGBTQ+ teen drama has just dropped on Netflix and the focus this time is Charlie’s anorexia and OCD. We find out how common eating disorders are in the LGBTQ+ community. And we also have a top-banana chat with The Brilliant World of Tom Gates’ author and creator Liz Pichon. Liz is dyslexic and her highly illustrated books go down so, so well with lots of dyslexic children. And she draws on her shoes. How cool is she? Talk to her later on.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Give us a shout on WhatsApp, I love you to get in touch. We’re on 0330 123 9480, send a voice message or a text message. Pop the word Access before if you can; it helps us to find it. We’d love you to get onto the WhatsApp, love to see your messages there. Or you can email accessall@bbc.co.uk. And if you haven’t already please subscribe to us on ´óÏó´«Ã½ Sounds.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The latest series of groundbreaking LGBTQ+ drama Heartstopper is back on our screens. If you’re a fan you will be familiar with the relationship between Nick and Charlie. And in this season particularly their relationship becomes more complex as Charlie’s eating disorder comes to the fore. Here’s a clip of Charlie confiding in Nick for the first time:

[Clip]

CHARLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think I do have an eating disorder.

NICK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s going to be okay. You can talk to your parents, you can, you can get help.

CHARLIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I can’t talk to them [crying]. I can’t tell my parents. My mum’s not like yours, she doesn’t listen to me. She gets angry at me.

[End of clip]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý According to the Charity Just Like Us in 2021 20% of LGBTQ+ teenagers were experiencing or had experienced an eating disorder. And that’s compared to 7% of non-LGBTQ+ teenagers. Now, why are these numbers so different? Joining me to talk about this is James Downs. James is a gay man and he first started dealing with an eating disorder aged just 14. You’re so welcome, James, thank you for joining me.

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi, thank you for covering this subject.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure. I mean, the subject is being talked about more at the moment than usual because of Heartstopper. How do you feel about that?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it’s brilliant to bring this subject into public awareness really. I think eating disorders are something we think affects the minority of people, and then we think of a particular stereotype.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, absolutely. Also with me is Matthew Todd. Now, Matthew published Straight Jacket, which is a book about gay men and mental health. And he’s also a former editor or Attitude magazine, Britain’s bestselling gay magazine. Thank you for joining me, Matthew.

MATTHEW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thanks for inviting me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, Matthew you have been watching Heartstopper. How do you feel they’ve covered this really sensitive subject?

MATTHEW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it’s great. it’s a very difficult and complex subject to cover, and they haven’t gone into too much depth, it’s not too traumatic; but they’ve addressed it in a sensitive way. And I think that’s really important, especially when you consider how many young people are watching it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it’s absolutely huge. It’s right at the top of Netflix’s most watched at the moment so it’s really, really a big show. Now, James you have been open about your eating disorders over the years. When did you realise that things weren’t quite right with you?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was about 14, 15 when I was diagnosed with anorexia, but I’d had problems with food and eating and being in my body really, about body dissatisfaction, feeling uncomfortable in my skin from around the age of ten or 11. So, I think very often people struggle for quite a long time before they realise this is a big problem and ask for help. And then getting to that help there are lots of barriers in the way, especially if you don’t fit the stereotype of what we think somebody with an eating disorder might look like.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. And what pressures were you feeling at that time when things got more difficult than they had been, I suppose?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I think like a lot of young people it’s difficult to be in a changing body, and it’s really confusing to navigate the world that tells you very conflicting messages about your body and how it should be, how it should look. And I had quite a lot of bullying based on my appearance, and I think that only made things worse. And I also had physical health problems that made it uncomfortable to be in my body. So, all these things together meant that it was a bit of a perfect storm for restricting my eating and trying to sort of suppress my body. And that became very dangerous.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And how easy or difficult was it to tell your family and friends and to get some support?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was really difficult to put it into words what I was going through, and I didn’t really recognise that I had eating problems. I wouldn’t have used the words eating disorder until I was told this is an eating disorder, this is anorexia. And getting help was hard but because I was so physically unwell people did take it seriously. Then specialists were quite confused about me being male, and I was treated a bit as a sort of rare specimen, and I felt like I was strange and that I wasn’t the kind of person who would get this problem, which made me feel quite stigmatised I suppose. So, whilst I did get help I didn’t find it always very helpful; I felt like I was a bit to blame for what I was going through as well.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What was your experience, James, with therapists when you did get some help?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, a lot of the times the things that I wanted to talk about that I thought were important for my eating disorder were just not things that I think therapists were used to talking about. So, I for example tried to talk about the pressure I felt to look a particular way, to be attractive to other men, and the way that we talk about each other’s bodies quite freely in the gay community is I think sometimes very unhelpful, quite a judgemental way. And I tried to talk about this and the therapist sort of laughed at me when I was saying, this is how I need to look on dating apps, and this kind of stuff, and this is affecting my eating disorder. And I felt like they were just really uncomfortable and, they weren’t laughing at me, but they just didn’t know how to deal with this issue and how to talk openly about it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, it was nervous laughter. You don’t want to hear that from your therapist, do you?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, I think it made me feel like I was strange or that I shouldn’t be experiencing this or that it was trivial. And actually sometimes these small things play a big part in people’s lives, like how people respond to you online, how you feel, the peer pressure from your community – it could be having a really serious impact on people.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Let’s go to you now, Matthew. You have looked at this subject and written about it in your book Straight Jacket. Why do you think so many young LGBTQ+ people are dealing with eating disorders at the moment?

MATTHEW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it’s just about trauma. It’s very, very traumatic and very difficult to accept that you are as different as you are when you’re LGBTQ. And I think I was coming out at 16 in 1990 and people didn’t talk about the word gay, they weren’t talking about eating disorders, they weren’t talking about shame or trauma or the impact of growing up. It’s just so very difficult. For a long time the narrative around gayness and queerness and LGBTQ people and stuff was always about Pride and waving a flag and emphasising all the positives and saying, everything’s so great, everyone come out. Which is great, it’s really important, it was a necessary thing to happen considering how homophobic things had been in the past; but it never took into account that actually it's really hard when you accept that you are that different. I knew I was different by the time I was six, seven, eight. I realised that I was gay when I was ten. I had no one to talk to, no one to turn to, and had that huge amount of trauma that you then turn it in on yourself. And I think that’s the thing, I say this in my book I think, that when you don’t like yourself because you’ve been told not to like yourself, the thing you see of yourself is your physical appearance, it’s your body, isn’t it, so we often turn those things in on ourselves.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now your book is recent, you worked for Attitude magazine, what were the stories of the young LGBT people with eating disorders? What did they tell you? Why did they tell you that this is happening to them?

MATTHEW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think the common thing with all the problems that arise, body image or whatever, is about lack of support when you’re young, at school, bullying, feeling isolated, feeling you can’t tell people. I think is a very common story that young LGBTQ people feel that they can’t come out to teachers because if they come out to a teacher the teacher may then tell the parents, and they don’t know whether they’re going to be rejected or even thrown out of home. And I think the big problem at the moment is this rise in visual culture, and it’s something that wasn’t the case when I was young, you’d buy a magazine and see images in a magazine, but now you cannot get away from images of bodies. There was someone I saw pop up on TikTok and they had an Instagram account I think with 15,000 followers [laughter]. I’ve got 10,000, I’d been working away for years as an activist and a writer, and this person – nothing against them, not that I’m bitter – but this person just posts lots of pictures of their great body and has thousands and thousands and thousands of likes. I think that message is very powerful to young people, but it’s a message constantly that you must be perfect, physically perfect. And I think that’s really damaging.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I’m hearing that loud and clear from both of you. James, how are you doing now?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m doing so much better now. I wouldn’t say I’m fully recovered, but I’m so much more at ease with myself and I really sort of accept myself and how I am, which I think has been really important to me in my recovery.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what support would you like to see young LGBTQ people getting who have an eating disorder or even people your age?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Education around things like pornography, which we know from research increases levels of body dissatisfaction and a drive for muscularity which is associated with these eating disorder behaviours, and actually increased risk of using anabolic steroids for example. I think we have more education around this perhaps then we wouldn’t see so many people falling into really unhealthy behaviours and eating disorders.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Should that happen in school, James?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think so. There are lots of demands on schools to be doing everything for everybody I think, but this is such an important thing: how you are in your body, how you relate to yourself. If I look back at my education I came out with top grades, but I came out also with no way of relating healthily to myself and other people and moving through the world healthily. So, I think that this is a really important outcome for young people, aside from just how well are you doing at school.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, a more holistic approach. Matthew, what do you think would improve the situation?

MATTHEW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think supporting kids when they’re coming out is really, really important. I also think the LGBTQ community facing this is a vital thing. And I think actually Heartstopper has done that in one stroke actually; I think to introduce that into the cultural narrative is really important. I say that at the end of Straight Jacket that we need to embed the language of trauma and recovery and childhood trauma and all that kind of stuff to make it as integral as Lady Gaga and Madonna and all those parts of our culture. Because it’s not that everybody has these problems because they don’t, you can be very, very happy living as an LGBTQ person, it’s just that there are higher levels of these problems within our community. And I just think we should support each other and we can get through it together then.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We reached out to Beat, the UK’s biggest eating disorder charity, and we asked them for advice, and they said to make a GP appointment at the earliest opportunity to get some help. And they’ve said that there is a guide for how to speak to a GP about eating disorders on Beat’s website. They’ve also got a helpline with trained advisers, open Monday to Friday. And the number for that is 0808 801 0677. Thank you ever so much, James Downs and also Matthew Todd.

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

MATTHEW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thanks for having me.

MUSIC-

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The Brilliant World of Tom Gates has long been acknowledged as being an excellent series of books for reluctant readers and dyslexic children as well, and everybody else to be honest. And I am so pleased and delighted to have the author and the illustrator of these fantastic books with me, Liz Pichon. Thank you for joining me on Access All.

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s an absolute pleasure.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh my goodness, I mean, honestly you’re a rock star in our house, you really are.

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh [laughter].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, we will talk about dyslexia in a moment, but I think we just need to start by getting to know Tom a little bit: 16 million copies of your books have sold; there’s been a stage show; there’s been a TV show. Who is Tom and why is his world so brilliant?

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, that’s a very good question. So, Tom Gates started off as a little sketch and really, you know, I worked as an illustrator, and after a while I kind of thought I wanted to illustrate funny books and the kinds of books I used to love when I was about nine or ten. And nobody was giving me those stories to illustrate so I basically thought well, if I write them myself then I can start illustrating them. So, it took about two years to develop, and Tom really is based on what I was like as a kid, and I put everything in these books that I enjoyed: so lyrics, music, drawing, doodling. I know that lots of dyslexic children and reluctant readers or unconfident readers enjoy the books. I just used this way of telling a story because I really enjoyed it, and it’s the kind of thing that I used to love when I was a kid. And I wrote about not big plot lines, but small details of family life, things about Tom’s pets and friends and just kind of everyday things that would go on.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What were you like as a kid and what is Tom like?

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tom is very easily distracted, very keen, very enthusiastic, so it’s kind of upbeat and fun. There’s no real meanness in the books. There’s a bit of, he has a friend called Marcus Meldrew who sits next to him who’s a bit annoying, and he’s got a grumpy teenager sister called Delia.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He’s always trying to get out of stuff, isn’t he? And getting himself into sticky situations.

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely, there’s always something that goes wrong. And it’s always interesting to me that the books are translated into 46, 47 languages, so there are children all over the world that are reading the books and enjoying them. And I think one of the reasons is because I write about things that lots of children can identify with.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Let’s talk a bit about the new book, because this series has been going since 2011.

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] I know, make me feel old.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And 23 books?

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is book 23, yeah. So, this book, if I read you the back of the blurb it sums it up quite nicely, so it says, ‘Question: what do you do when Mr Keen, your headmaster falls off his unicycle? You lose your supply teacher’s childhood toy? Marcus Meldrew thinks he’s so funny? He’s not. Answer: you draw everything that happens to you in a comic and make it ha! ha! hilarious’. So, that’s basically Tom is getting into trouble because everything he draws in his comic he’s taking things from his own life.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And the people who he’s writing about and drawing about when they see the comic they’re not too pleased.

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely. So, there is one drawing he does which explains a lot of things that have happened, and unfortunately that drawing he ends up giving it to his supply teacher along with his homework, and so that drawing must never be seen.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So much jeopardy. You’re dyslexic; dyslexic brains can be a bit more outside the box.

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re absolutely right. If I wasn’t dyslexic I probably wouldn’t have written a book with so many visual stories, and using the fonts and the doodles to help to tell the story. And I think that’s one of the reasons that children really do enjoy the books because they can get into the story very quickly. But don’t be fooled though because there’s about 19,000, 20,000 words in each book. And also myself and the design team and the people, my publishers, we spend a really long time on every single page making sure that your eye and that the children can take in the information in a way that is quite easy. When I pick up a book myself, even now, if the font is too close together or I find it doesn’t feel right or it looks complicated sometimes that can put you off actually getting into the story. Illustrations in books are great; they can help you to tell a story that maybe isn’t just in the text as well. When I’m writing as well I try and write in a very conversational way. So, in my head I’m thinking visually but I’m also thinking about the conversations and the chats that they’re having and their expressions. So, I think that helps when they’re actually reading the story because it is very conversational.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. We talked about you having a dyslexic person’s brain.

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You didn’t find out that you had dyslexia until you were an adult, right?

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How did that come about?

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, I was a child of the ‘70s where you made to feel like you were just a little bit thick I think when you were at school, especially if you weren’t very good at spelling and grammar. But I always very enthusiastic. But luckily I had art and drawing, and that was the thing that I absolutely loved. I didn’t really know, I didn’t find out about it, I didn’t really know that I was dyslexic. My parents probably had an idea, but dyslexic people quite often are good at finding other ways to solve problems and to find different ways of doing things. And I think part of that writing and adding the drawings was part of the way that I managed to get my stories out of my head and onto a piece of paper. My son, who’s very dyslexic, he didn’t learn to read until he was 11 and had to go to a specialist school to do that, so we went through the whole system. And through that process you get asked questions, and it became very quickly then this dyslexic and that side of it came from me [laughter]. That’s why I really understand it when I meet parents and when I meet kids, if I go and do school events and I might tell the children actually I’m dyslexic, and you can spot the children in the assembly, like, their eyes will light up, you know. You can spot them, they’re going wow, she’s dyslexic and she’s managed to tell these stories. And I just say to them, ‘Don’t let it stop you. There are loads of different ways to tell stories, it doesn’t have to be one way’.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, but you have to get through the school system, don’t you, and get through the exams?

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You do.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And it’s really interesting that you went through school, obviously, but then your son had a different path and needed some specialist intervention. What kinds of struggles did you guys have at school, and then your son being different, and then what kinds of strategies to just get through that system? It's all well and good talking about what you’ll do after school, but you have to get through it in the first place.

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That is really true. For my son it was really important that – he couldn’t read or write at all and he didn’t learn, as I said, until he was 11, he went to a specialist school, but the things that they were teaching him at the specialist school wasn’t that different from the mainstream – the biggest difference for him was that he had the same teacher every day, it was in a small classroom and it was consistent, and there was no back of the class to hide. And actually most importantly his confidence slowly built up, and within a year he’d started to learn to read and write, which was amazing. And also he was around children that also had similar problems, so he didn’t feel like he was the only one in the class. And I think that’s what happens a lot of the time with children, they don’t catch up. Things move on so quickly and if you’re not being able to catch up and you can’t read how do you access the information? It’s really difficult. So, you immediately start to feel like you’re not part of the lessons, and then your shutters go down, bang.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, part of the thing is actually building up confidence, reading for pleasure, anything, it doesn’t matter what it is.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, the world opens up to you.

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Exactly.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, what about you, how did you get through the school system? Because you then got designing album covers.

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you know, I just got through it. And then you find the thing that you love doing and that’s when it opens up. Like, going to college was amazing for me, going to do art and drawing and just being around people that really loved that side of it. If you really love doing something, if you’re really interested in something just find a way of doing it, because there are lots of ways of doing it. Even if you find doing the exam side of it, it doesn’t mean to say you can’t end up doing what you love doing. Nothing sucks the joy out of reading than making kids read stuff that they don’t like. You know, whether it’s comics, parents get really worried about them not moving on or reading the same books over and over again, but honestly the most important thing is that they’re just reading and picking up a book and doing something for pleasure, whether it’s a book on insects, whether it’s comics, anything, just get them reading. They’ll find books and they’ll move on. They’ll find other books later on.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have a question from my friend Harvey:

HARVEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, my name is Harvey. And I would just like to ask you two questions: is there ever going to be a Shoe Wars sequel? And what is the next Tom Gates book?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah, Shoe Wars, we’ve not talked about that at all.

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Shoe Wars, oh Harvey, thank you so much. I love you Harvey [laughs], that’s such a good question. So, I wrote a book called Shoe Wars which was kind of inspired when I was doing school events and I would draw on my shoes, and I drew the characters, and all the kids would spot them on my shoes and they became a bit of a thing. So, it got me thinking about hmm, I wonder if you had amazing gadget shoes. It was a bit like the Golden Shoe Award, like the Oscars of the shoes, and what kinds of gadget shoes would be the winners. So, I created this whole world. I have got ideas for Shoe Wars Part 2. And in fact if you look at the first book and you go back to the end I did tease up a little bit of what could be the second book. I just need to find the time to do it [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re a busy, busy, busy, busy lady.

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’d love to. I love it. Thank you for that question. And the next Tom Gates book, well the one after this one, this one is called Tom Gates Ha! Ha! Hilarious, and I have got a title and I’ve already started plotting out the next book for next year. But I can’t tell you, [laughs] not yet. But be assured there will be a new book, absolutely.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, we’re very, very relieved to hear that. Tom Gates Ha! Ha! Hilarious is out on the 10th October, which coincides with dyslexia awareness week, which runs from the 7th to the 14th October. Liz Pichon thank you so much. I enjoyed that so much.

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s been an absolute pleasure, thank you.

MUSIC-

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much to Liz Pichon who’s raised my kids’ estimations of me massively, so thank you Liz for that. I live for your messages, for your suggestions, for your WhatsApps, your recommendations, your stories. Please, please get in touch with me, I love to hear your voice, I love to read your words. One of our recent stories about older people with learning disabilities not managing to live the life they want that really caught your attention on X. We heard about people who are being put to bed at 5pm. And Katie got in touch and she said that it’s not only people with learning disabilities; she’s had care companies say that they can only come to help her to bed, she’s got a physical impairment, at 6pm or 7pm. So, I think we’ll hear more on that story in the future.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s your lot for this week. What an interesting show, oh my goodness. Please get in touch. You can connect with us on social media, we’re on Instagram and on X @´óÏó´«Ã½AccessAll. And do subscribe to us, if you haven’t already, on ´óÏó´«Ã½ Sounds. Chat to you next week. Bye.