大象传媒

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22nd October 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 129

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, and welcome to Access All, the 大象传媒鈥檚 disability and mental health podcast. I鈥檓 Emma Tracey, and this time, I want you to prepare for some celebrity chat. I am talking to singer and Pop Idol star Gareth Gates, and ex-Labour cabinet minister turned Strictly star turned TV presenter,听 Ed Balls, and we鈥檙e chatting all about stammering. 22 October is International Stammering Awareness Day, and according to a poll by British charity Stamma, about 3 per cent of us stammer. This interview is full of absolutely fascinating details about stammering and about Ed and Gareth. For example, did you know that there are two different types of stammer? I did not. They also give us some tips on getting past those blocks that happen when you have a stammer. It鈥檚 really positive, upbeat, interesting, charming chat, and I really, really hope you enjoy it. Y

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What do Emily Blunt, King George VI and Ed Sheeran have in common? Now, you might not know this but they all stammer. Stammering is a neurological condition which impacts your speech. People who stammer might struggle to say certain words or get stuck on a sound. Now, last year Gareth Gates and Ed Balls were on Good Morning Britain on ITV chatting about how having a stammer impacts their lives, and now they鈥檙e here to talk to me. Hi both.

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello.

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 Hello.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello. It was more than just a chat for you Ed though, wasn鈥檛 it?

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It was really emotional. And I never quite know when talking about stammering is suddenly going to catch me by surprise. And I was saying to Gareth that he was one of the very first people with a stammer who I saw talking about it and succeeding with it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And Gareth, what was it like being a role model for Ed Balls? [Laughter] he used to be the shadow chancellor.

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 He鈥檚 appalled by the idea!

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 I try to mention my speech and my stammer as often as I can, and it鈥檚 for that very reason. Lots of people come up to me and say, you inspired me to never hold back, I share the same affliction as you of stammering and yeah, you kind of broke the mould as it were. And I try to do that as often as I can because if you can reach one person and help to change one person鈥檚 life then it鈥檚 all worth it I guess.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, your appearance on Pop Idol had a massive impact on me and my friends and everyone at that time. Gareth, what鈥檚 your first memory of stammering?

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e always stammered, from uttering my f-first words it was tough and it was difficult. And growing up was very, very hard; being different in a classroom is hard. I鈥檇 have bullies on top of me in the playground saying, well let鈥檚 beat the words out of him and, you know, those scars still stick with you. But fortunately I found another outlet, I found that music meant I could get the words out of my mouth and I could finally express myself, so that became my s-saving grace really. It was extremely tough as a child but I鈥檓 very, very fortunate that I found music I think.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And you talked about the struggle that you had at school on Who Dares Wins, which is an amazing show where guests go through SAS training. Here鈥檚 a clip of that:

[Clip]

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 Um, for me, um, um, um, um, um, growing up was hard. Um, um鈥�

STAFF-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What, family life you mean?

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 No, no. School, um, you know, having a stammer, um, school was hard. [Starts crying] Come on, god, just, oh, um, verbally abused.

[End of clip]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Are you angry about what happened to you as a child, Gareth?

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 No, I鈥檓, I鈥檓 not angry. Um, you know, it鈥檚, it鈥檚 hard to hear that, it really is, and, you now, to go back there. But it鈥檚 made me the person I am now; it鈥檚 made me the stronger, much m-more resilient person that I am now. And in a sort of odd way I鈥檓 the other side of it, I鈥檓 actually quite th-thankful that I went through that hardship as a child.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. Ed Balls, there are two types of stammering, aren鈥檛 there? I mean, I didn鈥檛 know this but there are.

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 There are and I didn鈥檛 know that either. Mine鈥檚 what they call a covert or an interiorised stammer. So, Gather鈥檚 is an overt exteriorised stammer, which means he st-st-st-stammers when he speaks, it鈥檚 public and verbal. Whereas mine is what very many people have which is more like a block. So, when you鈥檙e speaking sometimes, and especially if you鈥檙e under pressure or you are in an exposed situation or if you are speaking publicly suddenly the words [pauses] don鈥檛 come and you block on your words. And inside there is a big stammer happening but it鈥檚 not something which you can hear, but it鈥檚 something which the stammer it is ringing loudly in your ears this thing which is happening. And I didn鈥檛 find out that I had this interiorised stammer until I started to do national media, Any Questions, 大象传媒 News channel, Channel 4 News, and then in parliament as a junior minister once I was elected as an MP. And sometimes it would just go wrong and I couldn鈥檛 get the words out and I鈥檇 get stuck.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You definitely had some challenging moments whilst speaking in parliament, including former Prime Minister David Cameron being kind of less than kind:

[Clip]

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 The chancellor has confirmed government borrowing is revised up this year, next year and every year. The national deficit is not rising鈥�uh, uh, uh, is rising [mocking laughter and jeering], not falling. The national debt is鈥�

DAVID-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And with innovative ways of using our hard-won credibility which we wouldn鈥檛 have if we listened to the muttering idiot sitting opposite me [mocking laughter and jeering].

[End of clip]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 really hard to hear, particularly the second half of it. Did David Cameron apologise?

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, he didn鈥檛 apologise. And he also on a different occasion kind of suggested that I had Tourette鈥檚 Syndrome as well. I think he just didn鈥檛 understand what was going on, and he would hear those things now and be hugely regretful. Part of my journey was, um, to, to go public. It took me a long time to decide to do that, to start to speak publicly. I needed that for myself because that would relieve the pressure, if I knew that if people knew I had a stammer that made me less likely to stammer. The fact that you know I have a stammer means that I鈥檓 less likely to stammer in this interview. But that is also about other people starting to understand what鈥檚 really happening. And I think in life with any kind of disability or difference sometimes when people don鈥檛 understand and they鈥檙e a bit bewildered and they might be a bit embarrassed, and as a result they sort of try to front that out with bravado. And I think that that was what was going on there. And I think once David Cameron knew I think he did act in a very different way. But it took quite a lot of years for him to, to understand that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, which is hard going for you. Do you think things have got better?

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, they certainly got better for me because I went public, and I spoke to the Speaker of the House of Commons. In the first instance when I was there it was John Bercow. And I had letters from MPs apologising. The trouble with an interiorised stammer is that they don鈥檛 always understand, so they can think that you are not confident or that you鈥檝e forgotten or that you have been destabilised.

One of the worst moments for me, actually that day in the House of Commons when I stammered during my response to George Osborne鈥檚 Autumn Statement, and that evening Nick Robinson, the 大象传媒 political editor who knew I had a stammer, said on the 10 o鈥檆lock news that some Conservative MPs were saying Ed Balls wasn鈥檛 confident in his arguments. And I rang him and said, 鈥楴ick, it鈥檚 my stammer, you know that. You can鈥檛 call that a lack of confidence. I鈥檓 not nervous鈥�. And the next morning in this very building Sarah Montague, presenting the Today programme, I was down the line in Millbank, and she said, 鈥楲ots of your own side would have thought you weren鈥檛 confident, you were losing the argument鈥�, and I had this moment and I thought, I can鈥檛, I can鈥檛 accept this. So, I said, 鈥楽arah look, I have a stammer. Sometimes I鈥檓 not fluent, especially when I鈥檓 being yelled at by 300 people. But I鈥檓 not going to apologise for that. It鈥檚 part of who I am and I鈥檓 carrying on doing my job as best as I can鈥�. I came out of the Today programme studio, I thought why have I said this. I was in tears. Five minutes later I鈥檓 back on 大象传媒 Breakfast going through the same thing. And it was a searing experience actually, but I had such a massive response of people saying, you know, good, say it, speak up, it's what we want to hear, we want to understand. And I think as a consequence of those times not only did I get treated differently I hope, as Gareth was saying, that we contributed to people more widely starting to understand what this thing called a stammer is and maybe people are less likely to hector or bully or scorn now than they might have been ten years ago.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Are there times, Gareth, when your stammer is more pronounced and times when it鈥檚 less pronounced?

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. If I鈥檓 stressed, if I鈥檓 tired, in more stressful situations. Obviously l-live on TV is, is, is hard for me at times. The more that I do it it becomes more of a comfort zone, so I try to push myself to do interviews more or things like this, which is very, very easy to turn down but I, I try to be as f-forceful on myself. I鈥檓 part of a speech therapy programme called The Maguire Programme, and they teach that the only way for the f-fear to go down is to face that fear head on. On the course that we go on we have to go out and introduce ourselves to 100 people out on the street, 100 strangers; which for anybody is hard work, you know.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It sounds stressful!

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, it really is. Then we have to do public speaking in the m-middle of the town centre. It鈥檚 only by forcing yourself to do things that you f-fear the most, you know, that you can start to get a grip and a hold of this, this thing that鈥檚 controlled you for all your, you know, for all your life.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, you have a speech coach in your eyeline in this room.

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 I do.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Is that not seriously stressful? What is he doing over there in the corner?

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Do you know what I mean? You have to think about him, you鈥檙e thinking about us, you know.

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 He鈥檚 constantly waving at me to slow down. My default is to speak too fast and to try and race over my words. But I, I find that that often trips me up. He鈥檚, he鈥檚, he鈥檚 here because he鈥檚 part of the same programme I鈥檓 on, and just having him present reminds me of what I need to be doing and techniques that I鈥檓 supposed to be using.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But is it not easier to be more natural than to be trying to use techniques all the time?

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 I can guarantee if he, if he wasn鈥檛 here I鈥檇, I鈥檇 have barely got out one sentence [laughs].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, when you sing you don鈥檛 stammer the song. Could you not just sing your way through life, you know, just sing your interview questions?

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, well I鈥檝e never struggled with, with singing. But I haven鈥檛 had the negative association with singing as I鈥檝e had with my speech. I鈥檝e always had a great reaction to singing whenever I鈥檝e sang. And often as well when we鈥檙e on stage we adopt a different persona. When I鈥檓 on stage and I鈥檓 singing I鈥檓 G-Gareth Gates the popstar, Gareth Gates the singer and, you know, wearing that mask often helps. I鈥檝e, I鈥檝e done lots of West End shows where I鈥檝e, I鈥檝e had to learn script and, and acting where I鈥檓 playing a different character. You know, there鈥檚 never an issue with my speech there either.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Really? So, if you鈥檙e saying lines there isn鈥檛鈥�?

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And I hear you spoke to Rowan Atkinson, another stammerer about this and about speaking roles in musicals, what did he say to you?

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 He just told me and encouraged me to, um, to never give up. And, um, you know, he cast a bit of insight on, you know, when he plays a role he鈥檚 absolutely fine because he鈥檚 not, um, h-himself. I find it hard to talk about myself, but in a, in a character if I鈥檓 walking in a different way, breathing in a different way, embodying somebody in a different way I鈥檓 fine with my speech which is, which is odd.

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Definitely.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Is that the same for you when you鈥檙e in character, Ed? I mean, you鈥檙e not an actor, but being a politician or an ex-politician, and being a presenter as well, there鈥檚 kind of character acting in that.

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 There was a TV show in the 1980s with Jon Pertwee called Worzel Gummidge, and Worzel Gummidge was a scarecrow and he had different heads: he had a happy head, a sad head, an angry head. And I think in life, even when we鈥檙e being ourselves, you have to get the right head on. It鈥檚 not easy if you鈥檙e a politician to go up to people you don鈥檛 know in the streets and say hello and introduce yourself. It鈥檚 not easy to stand up in front of thousands of people and make a speech. But you have to have the right head on. You have to have the this is the period when I鈥檓 going to be the outward facing external projecting person. And all of us have I think often a shyness and a diffidence. And if that self is the person trying to make the speech or to say hello to people it鈥檚 going to be hard. So, you put on your performing head, your public head, and you know you can take it off in a bit and have a bit of a rest. And I don鈥檛 think that is any different if you are a popstar or an actor or just a person in their normal life: if you are needing to do a presentation at work, or if you are needing to speak up at a parents鈥� meeting it鈥檚 not an easy thing to do, but we all learn to put on the head which allows us to be that for that period. And I think for a stammerer that鈥檚 just a different way of doing the same thing: you put on your speaking head for a bit.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What happens if even in those situations you have a block? What are your strategies then for moving forward from that, like maybe on stage or in parliament or whatever?

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I have loads of techniques which I use. And any time I do something for the first time it鈥檚 hard. I always want familiarity. I always want to arrive at a venue ten minutes before and speak to people first. I use lots of launch words; I like to start a sentence with, 鈥楲ook Emma, the important thing is鈥︹�� I want to get myself moving. I can鈥檛 stand any sentences which start with an H if I have to read them out. The Bible is very hard to read because you can鈥檛 change the words. And when I feel a block coming along, and I do all the time, I鈥檝e learned to have the confidence to think it鈥檚 going to be fine, I鈥檓 going to ride this, and then I鈥檒l just wait and then carry on. And I鈥檝e learned that people aren鈥檛 going to notice that. Whereas before I was public and before I knew how to do that when I felt the block coming on I would panic and tauten up, and you could see it in my face. And that was when I became stressed and other people became stressed. The other thing is I always know now that I can say, 鈥楽orry about that, a bit of a block, I鈥檝e got a stammer鈥�. And the fact that I know I can say it and I鈥檓 not worried about saying it, and if needed to I just would, is hugely relieving of pressure, which means I don鈥檛 have to say it. Whereas in the time when I thought I had to cover it up, I鈥檝e done so many 大象传媒 interviews with John Sopel or with Laura Kuenssberg, when I wasn鈥檛 public about my stammer, and when I would block I could see the fear in their eyes because they鈥檙e thinking, 鈥榃hat鈥檚 happening? Why is he doing this?鈥�. Whereas the fact that I now believe in my mind they know I鈥檝e got a stammer means that I鈥檓 not going to worry about it and therefore I worry them less.

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 I think taking ownership is a huge, huge thing, and every time I do an interview I always do exactly the same as Ed does. I t-tell them, 鈥楲ook, I鈥檓 constantly working on my speech here, and there鈥檚 a strong possibility in this interview I might stammer鈥�. And by taking control of that and taking ownership of that it, it just massively lowers the fear.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And does it affect people鈥檚 relationships as well, and I suppose dating and all that as well?

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 not sure about dating [laughter]. I think I was already married before鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Did it affect you when you were dating, Gareth?

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I mean, trying to chat up a girl is, is hard work [laughter]. Yeah, it was always very, very nerve-wracking. I鈥檇 go on a date and, like, oh, just sort of hope for the best.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Did you have Chris at the next table, your coach, doing your miming in the restaurants?

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Slow down, Gareth. Talk about her family, ask her, ask her鈥�

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 Exactly [laughter]. I s-sent him home before I took her home though [laughter].

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I know there鈥檚 times when for a period I鈥檝e not done something because I thought maybe I can鈥檛. I said a no initially to Good Morning Britain because I thought with my stammer I won鈥檛 be able to do the autocue. But when I decided that鈥檚 ridiculous, have a go, roll the dice, I found, you know, not perfectly, but I can. You need as a person to have the confidence to say I鈥檓 going to try things which are hard and I鈥檓 going to be public about telling people this may be bumpy at times, but actually it鈥檚 going to be worth it for you. But that requires your manager, your employer to also think that鈥檚 okay. So, if you don鈥檛 have a supportive environment I think it鈥檚 much harder to do what we鈥檙e saying to people鈥�

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 True.

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�which is to be yourself and be open.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And Gareth you鈥檙e pushing forward; what鈥檚 going on for you in the near future?

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e actually recently written a musical, which is all about stammering. It鈥檚 called Speechless. I, I think we鈥檙e about a year off until we actually see something on the stage. But I just wanted to try to educate people on what having a st-stammer really is like, you know, and the mindsets that come with that, you know, and the way that it does kind of craft and mould you into the person th-that you are. So, yeah, I鈥檓鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That sounds like a lot of fun. And actually one of the things we didn鈥檛 talk about was humour. Have you got humorous musical songs about stammering now?

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 Yes. There鈥檚 a s-song that I鈥檝e written and it st-starts with a guy that can鈥檛 say words beginning with B, so he鈥檚, like, b-b-b. Then there鈥檚 a girl that can鈥檛 say words beginning with C so you get the b-c-b-c-b-c.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, so the bee-bop thing.

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I can see where you鈥檙e going with that.

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 Then you get a guy who can鈥檛 say words beginning with T, so you get the higher, so [rhythmically] b-c-t, b-c-t, b-c-t. So, this whole song is created by people that can鈥檛 speak. And that鈥檚 the sort of comical part of the show, and that鈥檚 one of many songs.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It sounds brilliant, doesn鈥檛 it Ed? Can we go when it comes out?

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Look, this is a bit of a revelation for Gareth, so I don鈥檛 just want to go, but one of the great tragedies of my life, one of my great disappointments is that I was asked whether I would like to play, after I鈥檇 done Strictly, the Teen Angel role in the [pouring] show of Grease, singing the Frankie Valli song Beauty School Dropout. And I said no, and I鈥檝e always regretted it. They got Jimmy Osmond instead.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Is this true?

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Totally true. And I鈥檝e always thought to myself, there was one point where the 大象传媒 were talking about whether I would do a show called Balls to Broadway where I would go and show that as a total amateur you could play the wizard in Wicked or the king in Hamilton, that kind of role where you don鈥檛 have to be a great singer. So, Gareth if you need somebody with a stammer who鈥檚 willing to come along, not necessarily with great singing skills, but who will give it their all?

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 Ed, you鈥檙e hired.

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No way! I鈥檓 in [laughter].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You heard it here first, kids, you heard it here first.

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Excellent. You鈥檒l have to write me a role.

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 Would you wear tights?

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檒l wear anything you want. I mean, if I鈥檓 on the stage whatever. Have you not seen some of the things I鈥檝e worn?

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, yes, I have.

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh come on, whatever you want, Gareth.

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 brilliant.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That is absolutely brilliant. And if you need a blind character with no acting skills that would also be fine with me.

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay, great.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 A little sabbatical I鈥檓 sure.

GARETH-听听听听听听听听听听 Amazing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, from the cast of Gareth鈥檚 new musical, Gareth Gates, Ed Balls and myself, thank you very much.

ED-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Great to be here. Thank you very much.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think you can tell that I had a mighty fine time with Ed and Gareth, they were totally charming guests. Listen, if you have something to say about this or anything else, you can contact us in all the usual ways. You can email accessall@bbc.co.uk, or you can go on the socials, Instagram or X and find us:听 @大象传媒AccessAll. You can send us a message, a voice or a text, on WhatsApp, just put the word 鈥楢ccess鈥� before it, our number is 0330 123 9480. You can subscribe to us if you haven鈥檛 already, just go to 大象传媒 Sounds, search up Access All and hit that big 鈥榮ubscribe鈥� button, please do. See you next time. Bye.

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