大象传媒

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12th November 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 133

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I am a bit croaky this week because I was at my sister鈥檚 wedding at the weekend! And I can鈥檛 stop talking about it and weddings, and I need somebody to get this wedding chatter out of my system. And no better person than one of our guests this week, Reece Finnegan-Knight, who basically splurged his wedding all over social media, and he鈥檚 blind so it was really accessible. So, I get to talk about weddings and accessible weddings. Hello Reece.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello. I鈥檓 so thrilled to talk about weddings, I can鈥檛 get enough.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Really?

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. How was your sister鈥檚?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, it was so beautiful. I was quite hard-arsed on making sure that I felt the dress and got a bit of the cake and felt the flowers and stuff like that. But it is a very, very visual day, isn鈥檛 it?

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It is.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And you鈥檙e blind as well, so what did you do to make your wedding more accessible?

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I couldn鈥檛 agree more with you that I鈥檓 so extra about these things now in a way that I never was before. I was always really awkward about, 鈥榦h no I don鈥檛 want to just impose myself too much and go and feel everything鈥�. But now I鈥檓 like, no, I鈥檓 going to go do all that. I鈥檝e still got a little bit of useful vision, I鈥檝e got just less than 5% so kind of fluorescent鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, yeah, whatever.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] soz to rub it in but, you know. So, I can still see, fluorescent lights basically are my favourite thing in the world. So, we just covered the room in lights essentially. When my wife walked down the aisle I could see the big white blob of the wedding dress. Not to call her鈥�that was bad calling her a blob.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 The blob of the wedding dress!

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] I鈥檓 so sorry. That sounds awful.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, it was great.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I saw the whiteness of the wedding dress. We had candles all up the aisle, lining the aisle, which was a hilarious fire hazard for a blind person navigating a wedding room.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We had an audio guest book, which I loved. So, all the guests could leave us little messages in a phone, which was very cute.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, that is cute. My sister had a video guy and I鈥檓 really hoping that he had his sound on.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, our videographer left the audio on for everything, where they usually don鈥檛. I think usually it鈥檚 quite an artsy film with all the music and stuff in the background. And we were like, no, no, none of that stuff, we just want all audio; I want to hear every little thing that anyone said across the whole day.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. It was lovely because I was a bridesmaid, and I鈥檝e never been a bridesmaid before because I think I kind of shied away from it 鈥� I鈥檝e never actually been asked 鈥� but I kind of shied away from it because of all the jobs. I was her sister so I got to be a bridesmaid without all the dress fixing and all that kind of stuff.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Anyway Access Allers, listeners, have you don鈥檛 anything to make your wedding more accessible for you or someone in your wedding party or your wedding guests? If so let us know. Email听accessall@bbc.co.uk听and tell us all about it, because I could definitely run the wedding chatter business over the next few weeks on the podcast very easily.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, Reece we are going to talk to you again later about some other exciting stuff. For the now 鈥� I鈥檓 very Scottish today 鈥� for the now let鈥檚 say 鈥榦n with the show鈥� together. Are you ready to try this?

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 so ready.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Three, two, one:

TOGETHER-听听听听听听 On with the show!

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Did I do it okay?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Perfect.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, I鈥檓 Emma Tracey and this is Access All, the podcast that likes to delve deep into disability and mental health stuff. Now, you can rely on us for the serious side of things, but we love to bring the fun too, so if you haven鈥檛 already please do subscribe to the podcast on 大象传媒 Sounds.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 This time, on the serious side, why are 350 disabled people鈥檚 organisations teaming up to oppose the Assisted Dying Bill that鈥檚 soon to be debated in the House of Commons? And where does that leave the disabled people who oppose the bill? And I get to indulge in some Strictly Come Dancing magic with an insider. I鈥檒l be speaking to Reece Finnegan-Knight, he鈥檚 a blind assistant TV producer on the show, and he鈥檚 also one half of TikTok sensation, Blind & Blonde with his wife, Sophy.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 350 disabled people鈥檚 organisations, led by Disability Rights UK, have announced that they鈥檙e forming a coalition to oppose the Assisted Dying Bill. The bill has been in the headlines for a few weeks now, and if it makes it into law it will give terminally ill people in England and Wales the legal right to end their lives. MPs will initially debate and vote on it on 29th November, although there will need to be further debates and votes before it can come into law. If it does pass it will give the choice to end their lives to those with a life expectancy of six months or less, provided their decision is approved by two doctors. The organisation leading the coalition is Disability Rights UK, and up to now it has had a neutral stance on the topic. But on 12th November it announced that it would be opposing the bill. Bethany Bale, policy and campaigns officer with Disability Rights UK joins me. Hi Bethany.

BETHANY-听听听听听听听听 Hi, Emma. It鈥檚 lovely to be here. Thank you for having me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And Tom Shakespeare joins me too. He is an author and a professor of disability research at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, and he鈥檚 part of a group of eight disability rights campaigners and academics who have written to MPs and peers urging them to back the bill because, in their words, everyone deserves the chance of a good death. Hi Tom.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hi there, nice to be back.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Here are some facts about how the bill will work. It鈥檚 called the Terminally Ill Adults End of Life Bill. The bill would make it legal for over-18s who are terminally ill to be given assistance to end their lives. There are requirements, including having the mental capacity to make the choice away from coercion or pressure; they must make two separate declarations about wishing to end their life; two independent doctors must be also satisfied seven days apart from each other; then a High Court judge needs to make a decision; and after that there are 14 days of a cooling off period before anything else can happen. Bethany Bale, you鈥檙e from Disability Rights UK and you oppose the bill. Why is that?

BETHANY-听听听听听听听听 Because we want to be assisted to live before we are assisted to die. There are rights violations in practice and in policy, and all of this lack of choice really leads us to concern around safeguarding, particularly that it is a private member鈥檚 bill that doesn鈥檛 give us appropriate time to scrutinise this. It lacks crucial detail. And why not focus on fixing the foundations first, like the NHS in crisis,听 like palliative care not being funded, to support us to live before you allow us to die?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, better healthcare and better social care first before this bill?

BETHANY-听听听听听听听听 Absolutely, yes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Professor Tom Shakespeare you are in favour of the bill. Why?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I back Kim Leadbeater鈥檚 bill because I believe that disabled people should have choices and should have their voice heard.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, Bethany, why has Disability Rights UK changed its stance?

BETHANY-听听听听听听听听 Our shift in position has come from a very rights based political standpoint. A decision that has been made on the understanding that we feel like we must be assisted to live before we are assisted to die, and that in practice actually our rights are so violated in this country, both through policy and in practice through failing public services meaning that we can鈥檛 access those basic necessities.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Tom?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Disability Rights UK is not in this case the voice of disabled people because disabled people are more likely to support this act than oppose it. In the general public it seems to be about three-quarters of the public support this act, and among disabled people it鈥檚 more like four-fifths according to an in-depth survey in March. So, I would like to ask Bethany whether Disability Rights UK has any data at all showing that disabled people oppose this end of life dying bill?

BETHANY-听听听听听听听听 Our coalition though is made up of 350 disabled-led organisations, that is a fact that can鈥檛 be disputed. And those organisations have members, and all of their members have carefully considered this position.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 think that鈥檚 true. All the constituents of DRUK have carefully considered this? I don鈥檛 think that鈥檚 true.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, Tom, why should they have considered it more in your view? What鈥檚 your view on this?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 My personal take is that this bill has all the safeguards we want, is restricted to end of life, and therefore should be supported. As a disabled person I do not have a terminal illness, but if I did I would welcome this bill. And of course nobody has to avail themselves of these options; it鈥檚 a choice. And I believe in independent dying as well as independent living.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What about some places in the world adopting a bill around terminally ill people and then the restrictions being loosened and loosened and it becoming unbearable suffering, which would potentially include disabled people who don鈥檛 have听 like a six-month life expectancy?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That was the case in Canada, and it鈥檚 also been widened in Belgium and in the Netherlands. However, this bill does not state suffering is a reasonable cause of assisted dying; it鈥檚 any for assisted dying. And that鈥檚 where the difference between this and Canada exists. In Canada they were able to say look, disabled people are suffering even if they鈥檙e not dying, therefore they should be included. The criterion is dying.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, it is in this bill, but once the bill is in wouldn鈥檛 it be easier then to loosen the criteria?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 think so. There鈥檚 a speed limit of 20 or 30 or 50 or whatever miles an hour, we don鈥檛 change that every year, we don鈥檛 have more votes on it. I think this will settle the case and it will be restricted, and so it should be.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay. Bethany?

BETHANY-听听听听听听听听 I think it鈥檚 completely inappropriate to say that this bill has sufficient safeguards. This bill is a private member鈥檚 bill which means that there is much less time for scrutiny, there is five hours to debate. We haven鈥檛 debated this for a long time in the House of Commons. There is very little detail on the safeguards. It does of course prohibit coercion, as it should, but actually it is incredibly difficult to identify coercion taking place. And there needs to be more detail on how that is prevented and people are protected.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Let me just talk to you about coercion, Tom. Obviously it鈥檚 built into the bill that people shouldn鈥檛 be coerced or put under pressure. How can doctors and the judge involved in this, because it鈥檚 a High Court judge as well, be sure that there hasn鈥檛 been coercion from a person?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I honestly think that if you鈥檝e got six months or less to live that鈥檚 not your main concern. Your main concern is dying well and without suffering. And the whole point of this is there鈥檚 lots of safeguards. Like, for example, a doctor cannot be a relative or potential beneficiary of the death; there is a seven-day cooling off period; then there鈥檚 an independent doctor; and then judging things like eligibility, capacity, any absence of pressure or coercion; then there鈥檚 the High Court, and again they鈥檙e checking that there鈥檚 no coercion; then there鈥檚 another 14-day cooling off period; then there鈥檚 a second declaration. And this bill makes coercion or pressure a legal offence, so if you鈥檙e found to have coerced or pressured anybody you are liable in law for that. And that鈥檚 very strict.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay. Bethany?

BETHANY-听听听听听听听听 There is, as I say, in terms of insufficient detail on safeguarding and insufficient detail on how we would prohibit coercion. It also allows proxy signatures, which there鈥檚 again insufficient detail given on how that would be safeguarded. And really what this needs is an independent commission. We have not really had enough done on this to provide us independent information and research.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, like a royal commission where they spend some years on it?

BETHANY-听听听听听听听听 Yes, absolutely.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What I鈥檝e been told in the past is that royal commissions don鈥檛 necessarily lead to bills and action etc. So, is that just not kicking it down the road?

BETHANY-听听听听听听听听 I think so. It鈥檚 not about kicking it down the road; it鈥檚 about doing it properly and making sure that our rights are protected.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Tom, were you surprised at this coalition? Were you surprised at the 350 disabled people鈥檚 organisations coming together? That鈥檚 a lot of organisations.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I was very disappointed, yes. I think it would be much better if disabled people鈥檚 organisations recognised that disabled people are divided, some support, some don鈥檛, and therefore they should not come out on one side or the other, as Disability Rights UK previously had it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But it鈥檚 quite a big group though, Tom.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, only 10% of disabled people are actually in their organisations we found. And lots of ordinary disabled people support the bill. So, I鈥檓 afraid on this case disabled people鈥檚 organisations are out of touch with what ordinary disabled people think and feel.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But can you understand why there is a disabled voice against the bill?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I literally have looked at the evidence and I think we are safe. I鈥檝e been speaking to disabled people who are in favour of the bill; I鈥檝e been speaking to disabled MPs and peers who are in favour of the bill, and who are reassured by the provisions that make sure that there is no pressure.

BETHANY-听听听听听听听听 I would just like to say as well on Tom鈥檚 point about fear and that we are safe, I think that we cannot say that when we are not currently safe as disabled people in this country. We have benefit related deaths, our rights are violated not only in practice but also in policy in the political choices that are made by the government day in, day out. And so I think that when we talk about choice we completely agree that disabled people should be empowered to make choices about their lives. They should the centre of their life and what happens. And I think at the moment they can鈥檛 make that choice, and that鈥檚 really the key thing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Bethany Bale, from Disability Rights UK, and professor Tom Shakespeare, thank you.

BETHANY-听听听听听听听听 Thank you very much.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 This is a massive issue for disabled people and this bill will be going through parliament for a while, so Access All will be keeping across it and we would love to hear what you think. Please get in touch in all the usual ways. You can email听accessall@bbc.co.uk, and you can find us @大象传媒AccessAll on Instagram and X.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Reece Finnegan-Knight is one half of the popular TikTok duo Blind & Blonde, which has amassed over 4 million likes, as Reece and his wife Sophy share their lives and what it鈥檚 like to be in an inter-abled couple. Let鈥檚 find out what that is in a minute. Spoiler: Reece is the blind person in that couple. You already knew that from the intro to the show. But yeah, he鈥檚 the blind in the Blind & Blonde. If you follow them you might have also got a sneaky peak into Reece鈥檚 other job recently, because he did a video about being a blind TV producer, assistant producer on none other than Strictly Come Dancing [Strictly music], which I absolutely love at the moment. It makes my heart flutter. Reece, we鈥檝e known each other for a while, we鈥檝e had a chat at the start, we鈥檝e even played some sport together, which basically nobody else has done with me. You are so, so welcome to Access All. Thank you for joining me.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much for having me. I鈥檓 so excited to be here.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Let鈥檚 talk about your Blind & Blonde TikTok.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] it was all Sophy鈥檚 idea really. We started it back in 2021 in the madness of post/present lockdown, and we just really wanted to start making content about our lives together. As you know yourself, Emma, there鈥檚 a lot of funny scenarios that come out of being blind, and also lots of scenarios where people who鈥檝e never met a blind person I don鈥檛 think they really understand how blind people do normal, everyday things. So, we were like let鈥檚 make some hopefully funny content about it and try and raise some awareness, but mostly just make people laugh really. And that鈥檚 how it all started.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And make yourselves laugh I鈥檇 imagine as well?

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes [laughs].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, Reece some of your videos have had millions and millions of views. Just to give people a flavour of the type of stuff you make here鈥檚 a clip of one of them:

[Clip]

SOPHY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 A day in the life of my blind boyfriend, stereotype edition.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 This morning I woke up like all blind people and bats do, hanging upside from the ceiling.

SOPHY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We got up and ready for the day. I wanted to try out my new perfume, but I think it confused Reece a little bit.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Who the hell are you?

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Today was such an exciting day because we went Christmas shopping, and Sophy took me the blind equivalent of Disneyland, the candle aisle at TK Maxx.

[End of clip]

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 These are our absolute favourite videos to make, the stereotype stuff is so much fun. They take absolutely ages, but I think for me they absolutely encapsulate what we鈥檙e trying to do with TikTok I think, and Instagram and all the socials. I think showing people the funny side of being blind, and taking the everyday stereotypes that often as a blind person make you feel quite small if someone was to treat you like that in the real world, I think it鈥檚 turning that on its head and putting the power back in my hands. Do you know what I mean?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And having a joke out of it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Totally. And you did something about colours once and you were just really silly about it, and I think sighted people are absolutely just obsessed with how blind people see and understand colour.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And making fun of that in that is not such a big deal. I think it was about laundry, wasn鈥檛 it?

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And I just love that because blind people do laundry too. Now, most recent video I saw was you at work. And I didn鈥檛 know until I saw this video that you are an assistant producer, a blind assistant TV producer on one of the biggest shows, Strictly Come Dancing. I mean, what鈥檚 it like working there?

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Do you know what, it鈥檚 amazing. I鈥檝e worked in telly now for I think it鈥檚 seven years this year. I鈥檝e done Strictly for the last two or three years, and it鈥檚 just the most lovely environment to be in. And I think this year more than any I鈥檓 just super proud and privileged to be on it. Obviously we have the representation of Chris McCausland being the first blind contestant, so as someone who鈥檚 worked on the show for a couple of years like that that obviously means a lot to me, and having that representation and seeing someone with my own condition actually on the show and smashing it that鈥檚 a huge deal.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, he鈥檚 got the same condition as you?

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, we鈥檝e both got RP.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh wow, retinitis pigmentosa for those of you who don鈥檛 know.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 the one.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And were you involved in getting Chris on? What鈥檚 your involvement in Chris McCausland, blind comedian, cultural event of the year situation going on here?

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, in terms of stuff with Chris, it鈥檚 been great to be able to advise wherever I can in terms of stuff specifically to do with blindness or how鈥檚 this all going to work. But to be honest, there鈥檚 not a massive amount I need to advise on just because I鈥檓 very lucky to have producers and executive producers who are just incredibly good at their jobs, and they just get it instantly. You know what I mean? Like, they know how they want this to come across.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 To be fair, you have put the groundwork in. So, you鈥檝e been a blind person in their faces for the last two or three years.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] I have very much been.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And they鈥檝e seen the support that you鈥檝e put in place. So, what kind of access stuff is in place for you at work?

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, work have always been brilliant with access requirements. Stuff like there鈥檚 a tactile line on the ground around the site which I can basically follow with my cane, which is amazing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 amazing!

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 really cool.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 actually a big deal.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I love it. Again, it鈥檚 a big old compound where we film at Elstree, and again it is often packed to the brim with people and dancers and glitter and stuff. I tend to try and, where I can I need quite a bit of help getting around, but that line is super useful. And it鈥檚 just nice that they鈥檝e thought to do that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I could talk to you about this all day.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I know.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But on a recent episode Chris McCausland and Dianne Buswell, his partner, did their couple鈥檚 choice, which is like basically a really personal dance where you don鈥檛 necessarily have to do specific Latin or ballroom, you can do what you want basically. They did it to Instant Karma by John Lennon, and the audience went absolutely wild:

[Clip]

PRESENTER-听听听听听 [Cheering] dancing their couple鈥檚 choice, Chris McCausland and Dianne Buswell.

[End of clip]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And the biggest cheer came when Chris put his hands over Dianne鈥檚 eyes

听

[Clip]

GEORGINA-听听听听听听 As Chris brings his hands over Dianne鈥檚 eyes the lights go out. When they come up again Dianne is lying on her back across his shoulders [cheering]. He spins round with his arms outstretched, and she swivels around his body as he continues to turn until she鈥檚 back on her feet.

[End of clip]

听

EMMA 鈥� 听听听听听听听听听听听听 The sightees definitely thought it was a really special moment. [laughter]

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah [laughter].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I was just like, amazing she鈥檚 on his shoulders and he鈥檚 spinning, that鈥檚 awesome.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What I really loved about that couple鈥檚 choice was that it wasn鈥檛 a sob story. It was fun, really fun.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That was exactly it. I think what Chris wanted was that this is not a sad dance, this isn鈥檛 a kind of heartbreaking story of sight loss and all this stuff; it鈥檚 very much a joyful moment of Chris celebrating that he鈥檚 doing the show and that he鈥檚 the first blind contestant, and that he is changing perceptions. And I think that鈥檚 the one thing that I鈥檝e loved so much about his dance. You鈥檝e kind of alluded to it there, actually watching the dance for us doesn鈥檛 really do much, I couldn鈥檛 really get goosebumps from it because it was like, well I can鈥檛 see what鈥檚 going on.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But hearing that reaction and hearing the song and knowing what they鈥檙e doing and the impact that鈥檚 having for people, audiences at home that maybe have never seen a blind person or met a blind person before, I think that鈥檚 what鈥檚 goosebumps about it. Do you know what I mean? That鈥檚 what鈥檚 amazing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Can we get geeky about the audio description for a second?

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Please, yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Because I鈥檝e talked to loads of people on this podcast about it but not another blind person. What difference did that make when they brought that in to Strictly Come Dancing?

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Look, I don鈥檛 know much about dancing. Everything I know about dancing is from working on the show. But just to be able to watch the show, and the way that Georgina describes the dances she gets the tone over so perfectly, like, just with the words. The eloquence of it is so amazing. And the timing that they have to get right to make sure that you enjoy the music as well as know what moves they鈥檙e doing. Do you know what I mean?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, it鈥檚 incredible.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 just so incredible.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And then she has to break script if they get it wrong or whatever.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I know! Those are my absolute favourite bits; I love the chaos when something goes a bit wrong, and it鈥檚 like, 鈥楾hey look very uncomfortable as they nearly drop their partner on their head鈥�. Do you know what I mean?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah [Laughter].

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I love that stuff.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 On Saturday night it was like, 鈥楯B almost falls over鈥�.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, [laughs] obsessed with that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely brilliant. But listen, even though the audio description is fantastic, I have to be very honest with you, I really don鈥檛 know what they鈥檙e doing. They could have sounded patronising the judges on Saturday night because they were like, 鈥業 don鈥檛 actually know how you鈥檙e doing it鈥�. But I was sitting there going, I don鈥檛 actually know either.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, blind person to blind person, can you imagine doing what Chris is doing?

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think everyone had no idea how this was going to work; Chris has said it quite a few times. And it was all very much trial and error, like, let鈥檚 get to the training room and Dianne will see how she鈥檚 going to鈥� She鈥檚 never taught a blind person how to dance before and Chris has never learnt how to dance before, so it鈥檚 all a massive learning curve. And I think his whole thing this whole series has been, I want to do everything the same as everybody else, and let鈥檚 just see if Strictly works for a blind person. And I guess we鈥檝e got the answer that it does. But you鈥檙e absolutely right, it鈥檚 so difficult. The only way that I feel that I can maybe visualise what鈥檚 going on is because since I鈥檝e started working on the show I鈥檝e asked to have a few lessons鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Have you?

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�to find out what the dancers actually feel like. So, that helps me visualise it a little bit more.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But hang on a second now. I still need to know, do you know how they鈥檙e doing it? Like, are they literally sitting down at the table and learning the footwork on his hands? What is he doing? Do you know or is that a really big secret?

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 a big secret. I think it鈥檚 different depending on each dance. I think the main thing that they鈥檙e doing is very much a tactile thing: they鈥檙e getting in the training room and Dianne is showing Chris, like moving his body around, and Chris is feeling Dianne鈥檚 body, feeling where her legs are and where her feet are. And they鈥檙e just running it through over and over again. Chris has a really good memory, in the same way that I think a lot of blind people do, because we have to. And it鈥檚 all kind of just learning something through muscle memory over and over again, and trying to replicate what Dianne is telling him through trying to turn that into actual movement and dance. Do you know what I mean? I mean, it鈥檚 incredibly hard, so, so incredibly hard. And that on top of the fact that he has to then move around the floor.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, my spatial awareness is terrible! I wouldn鈥檛鈥�

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh my god, same.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh my goodness.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 crazy. And then it鈥檚 so loud in there as well. I don鈥檛 even know if he can really hear Dianne across the floor when she鈥檚 shouting instructions. So, again there鈥檚 so much, they talk about it all the time, but there鈥檚 so much trust there; they have to really trust that they鈥檙e going to do everything to the second and to the letter that they did in practice.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I could talk to you, Reece Finnegan-Knight, all day.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, same to you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you for being so nerdy and geeky about Strictly with me. It has been an absolute joy. Wedding chats and Strictly, I mean honestly, could it get any better?

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh mate, what more could you ask for?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely. Reece Finnegan-Knight, thank you so much for joining me.

REECE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thanks Emma.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Strictly Come Dancing theme tune.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That is it for this episode. Thanks to my guests and thank you to you for getting in touch. It has all actually got a bit political this week. Anya emails 鈥� I hope we got your name right there, Anya 鈥� and Anya is very frustrated with the Labour government鈥檚 first budget which came out a few weeks ago. And she hopes that there will be a stronger focus on employment regulations in the future. Michaela McDougal got in touch, she was listening to our episode on the US elections, and she鈥檚 concerned that the election of Donald Trump will mean that disabled Americans won鈥檛 get a say in the policies which affect their lives. We also had Melissa Ortiz on that episode and she believes that Donald Trump will be good for disabled Americans and that he will engage with policymakers who will advise him on the best policies to help disabled people fully integrate into their communities.

Dopa mining and doom piling, they鈥檙e the watchwords from last week鈥檚 episode. If you鈥檙e curious to know what they mean then listen to our episode with Dr Mine Conkbayir and her comedy actor husband, Paul Whitehouse. I鈥檒l give you a clue: they鈥檙e ADHD related.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Subscribe to us on 大象传媒 Sounds and please do get in touch. You can email accessall@bbc.co.uk, and we are @大象传媒AccessAll on Instagram and X. See you next time. Bye.听