大象传媒

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7th January 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 141

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Tell me that you also have this thing where you start researching something and you go into all sorts of other areas and down all sorts of rabbit holes. Because we have this really good housing story about disabled people and renting coming up on this episode, and I was doing some homework for that and I was going through 大象传媒 iPlayer stuff, and I found this 大象传媒 Three documentary from late last year where four young Scottish people are evicted from their homes and they have to find somewhere to rent, and it鈥檚 really difficult. And one of those people was Alannah who鈥檚 disabled and needed a ground floor property, so it was almost impossible to find somewhere. But I was listening to her story on the documentary and all the things about it just got me really excited: she鈥檚 a young mum, she鈥檚 got a stoma, she鈥檚 got lots of tattoos, and she writes about it online as Glitteryguts. I was so interested in her story that I called her up for a bit of a chat. Have a listen:

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Alannah, you have so many strings to your bow.

ALANNAH-听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You talked about having an ileostomy bag. I mean, I love that the way you talk about this is through social media, and what you call yourself is Glitteryguts, which just says so much, because you鈥檝e got lots and lots of tattoos as well. Tell me a bit about what you do online.

ALANNAH-听听听听听听听 Gosh, well I just started by doing my blog on WordPress actually, and it was me sitting in my hospital bed waiting on stoma surgery and I was terrified. And it literally just started from there, just being this terrified young woman of not knowing what life was going to be like. And it was just like sharing people鈥檚 stories on my WordPress, sharing my own story on my Instagram, talking about topics and everything to do with chronic illness and just all the weird and wonderful things that come along with it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 A bit of a handbrake turn, but I mentioned earlier that you have tattoos, and I鈥檓 always fascinated about how people choose their tattoos. Where did the tattoo journey come from?

ALANNAH-听听听听听听听 I used to be part of a community for people that had Crohn鈥檚 and colitis and stoma and things. And there was a ball in 2019, so there used to be an annual ball and everybody would meet up who had the same condition, everybody understood each other, and obviously me and my friends went. And we were like, oh wouldn鈥檛 it be really cool if we just got a tattoo. So, we all just literally walked into this first place we saw in Birmingham, it was terrible.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh wow!

ALANNAH-听听听听听听听 So, we all got a little love heart about the size of my thumb print.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And have you any disability related tattoos?

ALANNAH-听听听听听听听 Yes, I鈥檝e got one. This is before I had any of my ostomate pregnancies, so it鈥檚 very stretched out and it needs to be redone, but around the top of my stoma bag I鈥檝e got two ribbons, so one is a sepsis ribbon which is red, and then I鈥檝e got one which is the IBD ribbon which is purple, because purple is the colour for inflammatory bowel disease.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh my goodness. You mentioned pregnancies with a stoma; when you were expecting Odin and Kian what were the things you needed to think about with a stoma?

ALANNAH-听听听听听听听 So, with any pregnancy with a stoma you should expect your stoma to swell because obviously you鈥檙e retaining more liquid so it makes the stoma swell, and then you鈥檝e got the pressure from the baby and the fluid behind the stoma itself so that pushes on the bowel and make it swell.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, it鈥檚 great because you鈥檙e able to describe that for other women who might be thinking of having children but who do have a stoma.

ALANNAH-听听听听听听听 There鈥檚 a lot of other women like me who were told they couldn鈥檛 have children. Theirs was more related to just having an ileostomy bag made permanent, so people actually put it off or really worry and get really anxious. And then they see me raising awareness about having my children with my permanent stoma and they say, oh I never thought it was possible. And I鈥檒l say everything鈥檚 always possible, unless testing says otherwise.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I love stories like that one. And you can hear more from Alannah on the documentary, Evicted, on 大象传媒 iPlayer. On with the show.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, I鈥檓 Emma Tracey and this is Access All. And what I want to know is how are your New Year鈥檚 resolutions going? Mine have mostly fallen by the wayside, except for the promise I make to bring you the best of disability and mental health on this podcast in 2025. Email us, we鈥檙e on accessall@bbc.co.uk. I absolutely love to hear from you. Later in the podcast we have wheelchair using TV director Owen Tooth, he鈥檚 directed EastEnders you know.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But first, millions of people live in rented accommodation, but according to the government鈥檚 latest survey of over 9,000 private landlords in England 47% of them said that they would be unwilling to rent to people who might need adaptations to their property. That statistic jumped out at us, so let鈥檚 talk to a couple of people about why it might be the case. Sam is a lawyer living in London and she鈥檚 with us now. Hi, Sam.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Also with us to set out what we can expect from private landlords and also how we go about getting the all-important adaptations is Paul Smith. And he is the director of Foundations, which is the public body which advises on all of this. Hi, Paul.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hi.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Sam, let鈥檚 start with you. You have rheumatoid arthritis and Crohn鈥檚 disease and you鈥檝e been renting for quite a while. What has your experience of renting in the private rental market been?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 For me the difficulty is the insecurity in private rental market. It鈥檚 very unequal negotiating power, so you're always at risk of eviction; any complaint you have with your landlord offers a threat of eviction, and therefore asking for these things is very scary. And then also we just move more often. I think it鈥檚 something like in London the average rental is two years.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, how many places have you lived in the last few years then?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I have just moved into my third place in five years. The first time I was evicted it was post-COVID in that rush of everyone coming back to London. So, I moved very quickly to a level access property, which was mostly suitable but it was far too far out of London and from my job, from me. So, it was never going to be a long-term solution.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And with your particular impairments there鈥檚 an energy impairment there too, so it鈥檚 hard to travel far etc.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It is, and also continence issues for Crohn鈥檚 if you鈥檙e on a train for a long time, so I need to be a lot closer. And again, with having rheumatoid arthritis where I鈥檇 moved to it was only serviced by about one tube, so if there鈥檚 any problems on that tube, that platform鈥檚 particularly busy, I can鈥檛 wait at the front of the platform when there鈥檚 less trains and it鈥檚 getting really crowded.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay. So, you鈥檝e moved again; what adaptations do you need, Sam, in your current home?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 My main one鈥檚 around the bathroom and toilet. So, for me my rheumatoid arthritis affects my lower limbs quite severely, so it鈥檚 to be able really to get in and out of the shower is a main one, so you鈥檝e got to step in and out of the bath, which is slippery, it鈥檚 very hard for me to lift my leg up that high. So, a walk-in bath or a wet room would be ideal. And also mostly just grabrails is the main thing, just to be able to get around my house. And also to have things like my cooker not be on the floor, have a medium height cooker oven so that I can get food in and out of it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, what鈥檚 happened when you鈥檝e asked for adaptations in a rental house?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 My experience has been previously landlords were sort of just saying no, which you can essentially possibly take them through the Equality Act for discrimination. But what I鈥檝e found recently is with the Disabled Facilities grant and getting an occupational therapist, they鈥檝e sort of cottoned on to how delayed local authorities are with this. So, what they are ultimately saying at the moment is, show us the OT report and then we鈥檒l consider the adaptations. And so you go to your local authority, and in my experience I have not yet had an OT come to my home and do an assessment.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay. So, the Disabled Facilities Grant is money that local authorities can provide to create adaptations and adjustments to a home, whether that鈥檚 in social renting or in private renting. And to get that money you need an occupational therapist; so you鈥檝e found that you haven鈥檛 had anyone come out. And what impact has that had on your day-to-day life, Samantha?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, essentially it just means that it鈥檚 hard for me to live in my own home. It means that it鈥檚 very hard for me to shower, it means that it鈥檚 hard for me to cook, it means that it鈥檚 hard for me just to do those things that you should be able to do in your own home. There鈥檚 been quite a lot where I shower at my local gym rather than in my home, because my gym always has level access showers.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, Paul Smith you鈥檙e the director of Foundations, which advises people who need adaptations and are looking for the Disabled Facilities Grant, and also agencies who provide those adaptations. Paul, is Sam鈥檚 experience unusual?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think in terms of the wait for assessment that鈥檚 not necessarily unusual. But I think the Disabled Facilities Grants aren鈥檛 always that well understood, and it doesn鈥檛 actually require an OT鈥檚 assessment to make an application for a grant. And quite a lot of local authorities are now developing trusted assessors, which are other people who have been trained to assess simpler adaptations, like the kinds of things that Sam was talking about, like grabrails and showers, where you then don鈥檛 need to wait for an OT to come and do the assessment.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What does the law say about private landlords providing adaptations?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 As Sam said, in terms of the Equalities Act giving permission for an adaptation shouldn鈥檛 be unreasonably withheld. But the definition of reasonable can vary depending on the landlord and the house and the situation. But landlords and tenants can apply for a Disabled Facilities Grant funded. I think one of the things in the survey you mentioned was that there are very few landlords use DFGs to pay for adaptations; but it is definitely available. One of the perhaps limiting issues is that to apply for a DFG you have to have an intention to stay in the property for five years.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Is it also a lot about ignorance, particularly around funding? The survey that we鈥檙e talking about said that 90% of the landlords who did make adaptations for people renting their properties paid for it themselves, and something like 1% used the Disabled Facilities Grant. What鈥檚 going on there?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 The government have increased funding for DFGs quite considerable, both governments over the last ten years, just some additional funding was announced on Friday. So, in most local authorities there鈥檚 funding available for DFGs. There are 70,000, 80,000 adaptations done every year where it鈥檚 made a real difference for people. And we鈥檙e working with local authorities across the country to improve those timescales.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay. And Paul, what would your advice be for someone moving into a private rental property and needing to ask for those adaptations?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think if you鈥檙e in a property that you鈥檙e looking to stay in long term DFGs is definitely available. It鈥檚 a mandatory grant so if somebody鈥檚 eligible for it then local authorities have a duty to provide it. But it鈥檚 also a means tested grant, so there is a means test to be eligible for it. We have a website called adaptmyhome.org.uk where there鈥檚 a means test calculator, so anybody who鈥檚 interested to find out if they would be eligible they can put in their details and fairly quickly find out if they would be able to access the grant.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thanks Paul. Sam, Paul keeps saying you need to intend to stay in your property for five years to get any of the grant. I mean, it鈥檚 quite hard, isn鈥檛 it, as a disabled person or anybody to know whether you鈥檙e going to be in the same place for five years. What would your advice be?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think my advice would be more towards the private landlords would be to say that if any of the homes that I was in were adapted then, you know what, that鈥檚 going to make me want to stay for longer. I鈥檓 a good tenant, I鈥檝e always paid my rent on time, I鈥檝e had no issues.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. Paul, 47% said that they would be unwilling to rent to someone who needed adaptations. What else is putting landlords off?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 National Residential Landlords Association have done some work in this area and they have found that where landlords are more aware of DFG they are more likely to consider making the adaptations. And some of the case study they shared did show that where landlords had supported tenants with adaptations then that disabled tenant can be a really good long-term tenant for them.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Are they worried about the aesthetics of the adaptations that might need to be made? I mean, disability equipment is famously not the prettiest generally.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think there鈥檚 definitely an element to that. But there is definitely an option for landlords to perhaps invest a little bit on top of the DFG to have nicer fittings. It鈥檚 not that much more expensive to have nice tiles and a nicer grabrail. There are ranges out there that are disguised as towel rails or shower guards.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I know there are the basic ones that you might be able to afford or might be funded; you can get nice ones if you鈥檙e willing to pay for them. But have landlords said that that is an issue for them?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, some have said that they would adapt if those adaptations were removed when the tenant moved out. But the DFG doesn鈥檛 cover the cost of removing them, so it鈥檚 there to adapt and not to unadapt.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And obviously a lot of disabled people wouldn鈥檛 be in a position to unadapt, as you say 鈥� that鈥檚 my new word for this week, unadapt a property. Would you be able to unadapt a property, Sam?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Probably not, no. But I would also say something, because I work in housing for social housing clients now and disabled clients now within housing, but previously I worked for injured clients that had had a road traffic accident or a clinical negligence and suddenly found themselves maybe a wheelchair user pretty much overnight. And the amount of accessible homes out there is just negligible. You would have to potentially with these clients find them a new home very quickly, they might be living on a fourth floor walk-up, which they can no longer live in, and we would have to hire people to find homes. So, therefore if landlords were adapting these homes they鈥檙e actually going into a niche. They鈥檙e usually a bit more rent, they鈥檙e usually a bit more expensive. You鈥檙e probably going to have a good influx of tenants. And also if you spend a bit more on having those adaptations which are a bit more aesthetically pleasing they鈥檙e going to last longer and you鈥檙e going to have a solid stream of tenant revenue.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, we reached out to the government about that 47% statistic that we鈥檝e been talking about, and they provided this statement:

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥楾he law is clear that landlords must not unlawfully discriminate against prospective tenants on the basis of a person鈥檚 disability, and any such behaviour is completely unacceptable. We are taking action to decisively level the playing field between landlord and tenant by providing all renters rights and protections through our Renters鈥� Rights Bill.鈥�

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Sam, you鈥檙e a lawyer, you鈥檝e worked in various areas and you鈥檝e had your own challenges around renting, what do you know about the Renters鈥� Rights Bill and how would that help with this situation?

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, the Renters鈥� Rights Bill is a really exciting and positive change for renters. The main change is the abolishment of Section 21 or otherwise known as no-fault evictions, which is where a landlord essentially doesn鈥檛 need a reason to evict someone. And that is going to mean that tenants can ultimately push back and argue for their rights more because, as I was saying earlier, there鈥檚 always this threat of when you鈥檙e a tenant you complain to your landlord about anything you suffer the risk of being evicted.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 The Renters鈥� Rights Bill is rumbling through parliament at the moment. It鈥檚 got its third reading next week. Samantha Lewis and Paul Smith, thank you for joining me.

SAM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 If you have something to say about what we鈥檝e been talking about on this episode, I mean housing is always a hot topic for disabled people and rightly so, please do email accessall@bbc.co.uk. You can send us a message, so it can be a voice message or a text message, send it to our WhatsApp number 0330 123 9480, and put the word Access before it. So, if you鈥檙e sending a voice message, write the word Access, send that and then send me your voice message; it just makes it a lot easier to find for us. You can also get in touch with us on the socials, we are on X and Instagram @大象传媒AccessAll.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听听

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We have a world first [EastEnders theme music], the first ever wheelchair user to direct EastEnders. Owen Tooth, thank you for being on Access All. Hello.

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello. Thank you so much for inviting me here.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 First wheelchair user ever to direct EastEnders. That is so exciting! What was it like being on set and everything?

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You know what, it was absolutely brilliant actually. Lots of sets they鈥檙e really not used to any form of disability; there鈥檚 a lot of nervousness, uncomfortable people and awkward people not knowing what to say or how to act. On EastEnders they鈥檙e just really used to it, so it was so smooth going on to that set actually and just getting straight to work.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Can I ask you a basic question: what does a director actually do?

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think a director is a bit like a conductor, so your job as a director is to take all the people that are experts in their field, whether that鈥檚 an actor or a composer, and you鈥檙e trying to get the best out of them.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And if they鈥檙e not doing it the way that you want them to do it, interpreting it in the way that you want them to interpret it do you get all sort of diva-y and make sure that they do it the way you want it?

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Not me, no. I like surprises. I think film is a great medium to work in if you鈥檙e a collaborator and if you like working with people. It鈥檚 always bigger than the sum of its parts when you work with a lot of talented people. No, I like it when people bring something that I haven鈥檛 thought of to it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh good, great, so you鈥檙e not a diva director then [laughs].

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e never been a diva director. I鈥檇 quite like to have a go.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e been a director for ages. EastEnders is not your first directing rodeo. How did you get into the profession?

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I started out in short films. So, my short films started doing really well in festivals. And from there I met a producer who then helped finance my debut feature film, which sold worldwide, that did relatively well. And then just in the last I guess five years my career鈥檚 changed quite a lot, which I think we鈥檒l probably come onto, to do with disability, and I just started looking at TV as something that had really developed really interestingly in that in the last ten years, I guess, TV has really come into its own and started telling stories that I鈥檓 not seeing in films. And as a career it felt like actually that鈥檚 a better home for me right now.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Tell me about that change in the career and why TV and soaps became a better fit.

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, it鈥檚 all based on my assumptions that TV has an infrastructure that can accommodate disability in a way that film can鈥檛 or hasn鈥檛. I was doing quite well in the feature film industry, and then when I became a wheelchair user it was like my career went into rewind, I just disappeared off the map. It wasn鈥檛 just that I couldn鈥檛 get meetings, it was that in meetings or networking it was like I was invisible, it was genuinely like I was invisible, people just didn鈥檛 see me quite literally. I went from earning quite a good amount of money to living in poverty overnight, and for a number of years that was my situation, and so I just started looking for it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And how did you deal with that, Owen?

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 There wasn鈥檛 a way of dealing with it. I mean, that was the brutal truth was when you鈥檙e earning nothing you scramble, you scramble to find a way of earning. So, I was just doing anything I could to make ends meet because I鈥檓 the person in my house that earns the money, so I was just taking on any job I could to earn enough to pay bills.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And you were also dealing with becoming disabled. How did you become disabled, Owen, if it鈥檚 okay to ask that?

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I had a fall when I was rock climbing a number of years ago, and it just kicked off an autoimmune disease that I wasn鈥檛 aware of, and so my joints kind of started eating themselves. So, my hips have just got worse and worse and I鈥檓 living with a lot of pain as well as struggling to move.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, you鈥檙e living in pain, you鈥檙e learning how to move in a body that works differently than it used to do. Is there anything that a wheelchair user can鈥檛 do in terms of directing? Because it sounds like a job that is probably fairly equal in terms of the actual doing of it.

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You get a chair named after the job, you have a director鈥檚 chair, it鈥檚 absolutely a job you can do sitting down.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 In a chair.

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 In a chair. It鈥檚 just based on your mind and your imagination and your ability to collaborate and inspire people. So, there鈥檚 nothing that you need to be able to do as a director that warrants anything that you can鈥檛 do in a wheelchair.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, why do you think people were so discriminatory towards you when you could do the job as well as you used to?

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 still not quite sure why. I really struggle with people understanding that I鈥檓 experienced at all. People assume that I must be an absolute beginner and that I must need training, and my training needs to be the very, very beginning level. That鈥檚 something I encounter all the time, and it was something I never encountered before.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, has being disabled changed how you work as a director?

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, it鈥檚 been quite a humbling experience. I think yeah, it鈥檚 changed my drive. I think my drive before was just to entertain; and now I want to entertain but I also want to make change.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What change do you want to make?

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 As a filmmaker I鈥檝e got a social responsibility, and I was always aware of that, but now that comes to the forefront of my mind. I like the idea that being visible is bringing change. I think there鈥檚 a certain amount of ambassadorship that I feel every time I鈥檓 on a show or meeting a different production company, just opening their eyes to the preconceptions they might have had. I鈥檝e made a documentary about my journey into film, which has actually opened quite a lot of doors for other people.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That makes sense. Now, let鈥檚 get back to EastEnders because you鈥檙e directing some more episodes in early 2025. Can you give us any teaser about what those episodes are about?

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No. You never know. I think I will start in late January and that鈥檚 the day I鈥檒l get the script.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Did the episode you鈥檝e already directed have a big duff-duff moment? And if so what was it like directing that scene of the episode?

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It did and it was brilliant fun. It鈥檚 a slightly surreal moment because normally when you鈥檙e directing you鈥檙e trying to get everyone to act very, very naturally, and when you鈥檝e got an iconic moment like the duff-duffs everyone has to hold their pose for an extra four seconds at the end and just look shocked and stay facing exactly where they are, because if they carry on then you can鈥檛 edit it. And so it was really funny and really fun. And that was the first thing I shot as well, the first thing I filmed on the first day there was my final scene, so that was really daunting.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Can you remember the line, the final line?

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I remember that Denise is admitting that her daughter is the person who鈥檚 caused the crash that Penny鈥檚 been blamed for, so it was a big moment because her admission might be sending her daughter to prison.

[Clip]

PENNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You think just because I can鈥檛 walk my life is over, don鈥檛 you?

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Do you know, what bother. Don鈥檛 even try and listen because she doesn鈥檛 listen, do you?

PENNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Do you know what, you don鈥檛 need to see me again because I鈥檓 going back to Paris.

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, you鈥檙e just running away.

DENISE-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You can鈥檛 do that.

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, she鈥檚 not welcome!

DENISE-听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, but it wasn鈥檛 her鈥�that, that caused the crash that put you in the hospital. It was Chelsea. [EastEnders theme tune]

[End of clip]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, Owen, that鈥檚 so awesome! Penny was in that scene as well.

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Penny鈥檚 formidable. She鈥檚 an incredible actor.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And is it good to direct another wheelchair user then?

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It was good to direct another wheelchair user who was so brilliant. It was interesting that we both picked up on similar things in the script.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Are you allowed to tell me what you picked up on in the script?

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, just some little things we changed a little bit.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But I think that鈥檚 the thing, disabled people in crew, and it鈥檚 a very good advertisement for having disabled people in front of and behind the camera, is that you can change things and you can look at a script when it鈥檚 real life disabled people and say, that doesn鈥檛 work and that doesn鈥檛 work. And as long as people listen you鈥檙e actually doing something really good. And you know what also annoys me is that that鈥檚 quite emotional for me, for you a wheelchair using director to be directing a brilliant wheelchair using actress. And it shouldn鈥檛 be that because it should be just normal, but I鈥檓 just like, oh you鈥檙e going to get the best from her and the rest of the cast, and it鈥檚 so good for the rest of the cast to see that as well.

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Exactly that. And it was emotional, and it was wonderful how open they were. Because coming on to a show like this I felt like maybe it鈥檚 not my place to say anything or maybe I haven鈥檛 got that kind of voice.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay, Owen Tooth [puts on East London voice] get out of my studio!

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much for talking to me.

OWEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 been a pleasure.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听听

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Since I spoke to Owen we got the news that he is one of just six filmmakers chosen to make a documentary as part of Netflix Documentary Talent Fund. Well done, Owen, yay. That is it for another episode of Access All. And now that 2025 is well and truly underway we want to hear what鈥檚 happening for you this year. Let us know. Tell us the stories you want to share, or give us a heads-up about something you鈥檝e heard that you think needs a bit more investigating. You can contact us in all the usual ways: we鈥檙e on WhatsApp 0330 123 9480. We鈥檙e on the email accessall@bbc.co.uk. And you can find us on social media, we鈥檙e on X and Instagram @大象传媒AccessAll. See you next week. Bye.

[Trailer for The Today Podcast]

AMOL-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, it鈥檚 Amol Rajan here.

NICK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And it鈥檚 Nick Robinson, and we want to tell you about The Today Podcast from 大象传媒 Radio 4.

AMOL-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, this is where we go deeper into the sort of journalism that you hear on Today, exploring one big story with more space for insight and context.

NICK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We hear from a key voice each week, a leader in their field, be they a spy chief, a historian, a judge, a politician, all with something unique to say. And we make sure they鈥檝e got the time and space to say it.

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听听 The WhatsApp鈥檚 show the character of the men who were running our country at that point.

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 The United States and its allies will then be confronting a kind of axis, call it the axis of ill will.

AMOL-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And from surprising voices with something important to say.

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听听 If the next scan says nothing鈥檚 working I might buzz off to Zurich.

NICK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We give you our take as well and lift that lid just a little bit on how The Today programme actually works.

AMOL-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That is The Today Podcast. Listen now on 大象传媒 Sounds. And subscribe.

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