大象传媒

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21st January 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 143

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, I鈥檓 Emma Tracey and this is Access All. And did you know that 25th January is Burns Night? It鈥檚 a Scottish celebration to mark the life of Robert Burns, Scotland鈥檚 national poet. It involves a traditional meal of haggis, neeps and tatties 鈥� that鈥檚 turnip and potatoes. And the haggis has the honour of being piped in by a bagpipe player. And this year for the 大象传媒鈥檚 Burns Night extravaganza that bagpiper is Katie, The Wheeled Piper, and she鈥檚 here to tell me all about it. Katie, you鈥檙e The Wheeled Piper because you're a wheelchair user, right?

KATIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, that鈥檚 correct. So, piping has completely taken over a life, and I鈥檓 a full-time wheelchair user.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Your pipes are slightly different to everyone else鈥檚?

KATIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 right. So, I play with my hands in a different position to every other piper I鈥檝e met because one of my fingers stopped growing when I was six due to arthritis treatment, and I鈥檝e got chronic pain and all that sort of stuff. It saved my life. I don鈥檛 know how I would have fought through all my health conditions had I not had piping to get me through it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Because you had major surgery, didn鈥檛 you?

KATIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I developed scoliosis in 2020, and I found out that I needed lifesaving spinal surgery otherwise I wouldn鈥檛 be able to breathe, and the only option was this surgery but I didn鈥檛 know how I was going to come out the other end of it, because I could have been paralysed or I could have not made it out at all. And it was a really scary time in my life, but I just was determined that before I get this surgery I鈥檓 going to progress to the bagpipes, from the squeaky practice chanter I am going to play my pipes for my surgeon and my whole medical team. And I did.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And you were back playing the pipes a month later, right?

KATIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 A month to the day I was back playing my full great Highland bagpipes, and a few weeks after that I was out busking.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But you鈥檝e also had some major food issues and tummy troubles which have stopped you going to school so much. You鈥檙e at an exam point in your school life, how do you manage to go to classes when it鈥檚 hard to leave the house?

KATIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 My stomach basically stopped working in 2023. We don鈥檛 know why. I鈥檓 just not able to eat a lot of foods; the foods I was able to eat were getting less and less, without me feeling so unwell people thought I was having a heart attack, I was in so much pain. But yeah, I am back into school this year but not in the classroom. I actually use a little robot and his name is Steve.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And how does the robot work?

KATIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Steve sits in the classroom and I have an iPad that I can connect up, I can listen to everything that鈥檚 going on. And Steve can terrorise the pupils when I suddenly start asking random questions through it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Tell me a bit more about this amazing Burns Night event that you are involved in and that you got to pipe in the haggis at?

KATIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It was such an honour. It was something I would never have dreamed of a few years ago.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That extravaganza is going to go out on 大象传媒 Four and 大象传媒 Scotland on 25th January, and obviously it will be on iPlayer as well afterwards. Katie, thank you so much. You鈥檒l come back at the end of the episode, won鈥檛 you, and play me a bit of a tune?

KATIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 All there is for me to say now is on with the show!

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Wasn鈥檛 Katie just such a bundle of fun and positivity? And we will be hearing Katie play her bagpipes at the end of this episode. Now, this is Access All, and greetings this time from the Edinburgh studio. On Burns Night after the haggis has been piped in it is then addressed with a poem, so if you want to pen a verse and address Access All you can send it to us in all the usual ways: you can email accessall@bbc.co.uk; you can send us a WhatsApp message, voice or text, on 0330 123 9480; and you can find us on the socials X and Insta @大象传媒AccessAll. Now, later in this episode, as Holocaust Memorial Day approaches we remember the UK born disabled people killed in a Nazi regime known as Aktion T4.

But first the California wildfires which have swept across Los Angeles have so far cost the lives of at least 27 people. They鈥檝e destroyed more than 14,000 structures and forced tens of thousands of people to evacuate. But for some disabled residents fleeing the fires has been fraught. At least four of those killed by the fires were disabled, and some of those who did find safety have been struggling to cope without electricity, food or support. With high winds forecast this week the threat of more fires remains. Carrie Madden has been living through all of this in Los Angeles. Her and her sister have muscular dystrophy and they live in the Chatsworth area of the city. And Carrie is with us. How are you doing today, Carrie?

CARRIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 pretty good, thank you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e getting on all right?

CARRIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, I am, thank you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Tell me a bit about yourself and your sister?

CARRIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We live at the far northwest end of the city of Los Angeles. So, we鈥檙e in a canyon type area of Chatsworth. It鈥檚 pretty dry out here. And to add to that we live in a very windy area of the valley so that when the winds pick up like they are today you live kind of like on the edge. You kind of just have to deal with it. You know bad things can happen, you just have to be aware.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And can you tell me a little bit how muscular dystrophy impacts you and your sister?

CARRIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Both of us are power wheelchair users. Both of us have attendants that come in. Both of us have them in the morning and early afternoon, and then in the evening hours. So, we have time where no one is here to help us out, and especially at night. We use a lot of public transportation. We do have a van but we can鈥檛 drive it, and it only fits one wheelchair at a time, so we鈥檙e at a disadvantage if we have to evacuate, one of us could possibly be in the van; the other one would have to get out in an emergency situation just by the streets and sidewalks.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And LA is not known for being a walking city; it鈥檚 very much a driving city, isn鈥檛 it?

CARRIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It is. And to make matters worse the infrastructure of the city the sidewalks have not been maintained, and the trees have uprooted so much of the sidewalks. So, in times of evacuation if you鈥檙e dependent on your wheelchair you鈥檙e going to end up having to go into the street to get out of certain areas because the sidewalks are in such bad condition.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay. And obviously when it鈥檚 an evacuation time there are queues of cars on those streets. Take me back, Carrie, to the first warnings. When did you know that something really bad was going on?

CARRIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That first night when that wind started hitting we knew it was going to be bad. It sounded like somebody was jumping up and down on our roof. Then the lights started to go on and off and we were like, oh no, this is not good. I had people from my work texting me, they were nervous as well, and I started to get very worried. 大象传媒ers came in and helped my sister into bed, but I was like I鈥檓 really not sure I should go to bed because what if we don鈥檛 hear any warnings.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And what about the power going out? Because you said the lights were going on and off. And how much do you rely on the electricity to live in your house?

CARRIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh we have a house built for power: I mean, we have automatic locks; we have security cameras so we can see if our workers are coming; we have alarms on our door so we know that our workers are here. We have a very good setup here so that it really helps us to live independently. But at the same time when the power鈥檚 out all that stuff goes out.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 How close were you to evacuating?

CARRIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 For that particular storm we did okay. In the past we鈥檝e had fires where we didn鈥檛 know if we should start evacuating. The bad thing about Los Angeles County is that the lack of communication specifically for people with disabilities, it鈥檚 just not there. For disabled people like me who take a long time to do things we need advanced warnings, and they hardly ever tell us that you should go early if you鈥檙e a person with a disability.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay, so they give you the evacuation warning too late for you?

CARRIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 In my opinion absolutely, absolutely, because they don鈥檛 take into account somebody who鈥檚 in their bed and it takes them half an hour to get out of bed. It doesn鈥檛 allow for that. But then I do understand they don鈥檛 always have that information, I do understand that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What鈥檚 your evacuation plan? Because the winds are rising again, aren鈥檛 they?

CARRIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 My plan would be to get with my sister and we would grab our cat and just roll down the street, and hopefully we pick the right direction. Most likely I would head south and southeast, and those would be towards the more industrial areas where it鈥檚 not likely to burn, it鈥檚 away from any brush. And so that would be the direction I would take. But also I do know that those areas have some of the worst streets for sidewalks so we would be doing it possibly in the dark with our wheelchair lights on. We鈥檇 just do the best we can and hopefully we鈥檇 do it right.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 To me listening to you that makes me frightened for you. It doesn鈥檛 sound like a great option. I hate this when people ask me this as a disabled person, can you not have somebody who can help you. But do you have a neighbour or anyone close by who could help?

CARRIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Our power wheelchairs weigh 400 pounds, and to know somebody who also has a wheelchair van that could take us that is not in a wheelchair already, no, there鈥檚 really nobody. Unfortunately we have a situation in our own community where people tend to believe that help is coming. When I first moved here my neighbour told me to go to the fire department, let them know my address so that in an emergency, like a fire or something, they will be able to come and get me. The problem is that LA Country is absolutely enormous, our city is big, the chances of the fire department being able to come and evacuate me while fighting the fire at the same time is just not believable. I keep trying to tell my friends, you have to have a backup plan, don鈥檛 wait because if they鈥檙e only giving able-bodied people five minutes to evacuate and it takes you longer you can鈥檛 be on that phone, you have to go.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Would you consider moving?

CARRIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 In the back of my mind I鈥檓 thinking that. I mean, it鈥檚 very difficult. When we bought this place we had it modified and it cost, like, 65,000 in modifications so that my sister and I and my mother could live here. Now my mother is deceased, she left us the house, and I know that she would want us to be safe, but also she left this so that we would be provided for. So, it鈥檚 a tough situation. And like I said, the accessibility of housing, finding one that鈥檚 accessible for two of us is so difficult. But it is in the back of my mind because the fire weather is not going to stop; it鈥檚 actually probably going to get worse, and I need to be prepared for that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Carrie Madden, thank you so much for speaking to me. And good luck in the next few days as well.

CARRIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much. Pleasure to be here.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Josie Scott is an actress who lives in North Hollywood. Josie鈥檚 a wheelchair user, and like Carrie she decided not to evacuate. And she鈥檚 here to chat to me about it. Josie, how are you doing today?

JOCI -听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You know, I鈥檓 doing okay today. There鈥檚 another high wind warning so I鈥檓 back on alert, which feels like I have been for the past 11 days, which is stressful.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 How close have the fires been to where you are?

JOCI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 When all the fires started we were kind of surrounded by them because we鈥檙e in the valley. And luckily we live in an area where there鈥檚 not a lot of vegetation; it鈥檚 a lot of concrete and buildings so we weren鈥檛 worried about damage to our building. We were mostly worried about the smoke. You know, there鈥檚 always that fear that you might have to pack up and go. And at one point we did get an evacuation warning it was sent by mistake [laughs].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Wow, that鈥檚 a scary 20 minutes. Did you do a lot of prep in that 20 minutes or did you have a feeling it was an error?

JOCI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We had a feeling that something was up because it went to all of LA County. Prior to that my partner and I had had a discussion where we were like, hey, there鈥檚 no harm in just packing a bag, making sure I have everything now.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And what鈥檚 it like being a disabled person in LA on alert waiting to know whether you need to evacuate or not?

JOCI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 terrifying to be honest. Disabled people are often left behind in these evacuation procedures. Luckily I have a partner who is not disabled who is able to assist me. But I have friends who are single and who don鈥檛 live on the first floor, and we鈥檝e talked about this where she was like, what am I going to do if the elevators shut down, how am I going to get out of my building. And I think that鈥檚 a real fear that we all have. The only option right now is to just wait for firefighters or somebody to come and get you, and that makes you feel so helpless.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Have you heard stories of disabled people who have been displaced or who have been hurt by the fires?

JOCI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, absolutely. Through my dance team we鈥檙e connected with a lot of people and families who live in the area, and we鈥檝e been doing a lot of outreach, trying to reach out to them and see how we can support. And there have been multiple instances of people losing their homes in these fires and it鈥檚 just devastating. I鈥檓 thinking of one family in particular where the daughter is a wheelchair user, and when they got the order to evacuate the only thing they had time to grab was her medical supplies. They didn鈥檛 grab anything else because they had to prioritise her medical supplies. Thank goodness they did that, but now they have nothing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, what鈥檚 being put in place for them then?

JOCI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e supporting them with donations and a GoFundMe and hoping to support them during this time, but obviously nothing can make up for the fact that they lost everything. This whole thing has made me think about what do I absolutely need, and I have other medications that I can鈥檛 go without. And those are just factors that non-disabled people don鈥檛 have to think about in that moment of I have 15 minutes, what do I throw in my bag, what do I absolutely need.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Is there a disparity amongst the disabled people that you鈥檝e seen who have been helped or supported or who haven鈥檛? In the UK we talk a lot about if you鈥檙e disabled you are more likely to be in poverty. I think that鈥檚 the same in the US.

JOCI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely. I鈥檓 lucky enough that I have a lot of resources if I were to need to evacuate. But other people may not be so lucky and they may have to go to the shelters that are not equipped for them, that are maybe not accessible. And in turn also in the Altadena fire there was that family, Anthony Mitchell and his son who perished in the fire because they were waiting for the firefighters to come and rescue them, and they didn鈥檛 come in time. And stories like that are just devastating. And that family they were black and disabled.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, Anthony was an amputee and Justin had cerebral palsy.

JOCI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes. It鈥檚 just devastating to hear stories like that, and it just shouldn鈥檛 happen.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I mean, at least four of the 27 people that we currently know about at the time of recording who died were disabled. Does that surprise you?

JOCI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Honestly no. And I wish it did. But it makes sense because in evacuation plans we are the last to be thought of. I鈥檝e been on 鈥� I mean, this is a different situation 鈥� but I鈥檝e been on aeroplanes where the flight attendants have told me that in a case of emergency I have to sit and wait until everyone else gets off the plane before they can help me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Which is terrifying.

JOCI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, that鈥檚 terrifying because what if the clock runs out?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What do you think could be done differently in California?

JOCI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Different training for firefighters to understand what the different needs are, better equip them to quickly and safely evacuate someone who is disabled, and just awareness. I鈥檓 optimistic that this situation will kind of shine a light on where disability is at a disadvantage in these situations, and hopefully people will make some real change.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Josie, thank you.

JOCI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much for having me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thanks to Carrie and to Josie for talking to Access All at this really challenging time. To find out the latest on the fires or about what support is available for people affected you can visit the California government website at cal.gov. And if you want to add anything to this conversation or anything else you鈥檝e heard on the podcast today you can contact us. Our email is accessall@bbc.co.uk; we鈥檙e on X and Instagram @大象传媒AccessAll; or you can send us a WhatsApp voice or text message to 0330 123 9480.

MUSIC-

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Monday 27th January is Holocaust Memorial Day. This year it marks 80 years since Auschwitz concentration camp was liberated by allied forces. The camp is the most emblematic symbol of the Nazi German policy to kill all those they considered undesirable, such as Jews, Roma, homosexuals and Slavs. Less often talked about though are the tens of thousands of adults who were killed under the Nazi eugenics programme known as Aktion T4. It targeted disabled people and those with mental health issues. An exhibition, Finding Ivy, currently touring the UK is focusing on 13 victims of Aktion T4 who were actually born here. Dr Helen Atherton put the exhibition together and she鈥檚 with me to tell me all about it. Hi, Helen.

HELEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hi there, Emma.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And I鈥檝e also got Nancy Jennings, and she鈥檚 the great niece of Zdenko Hoyos, one of those 13 victims. Thank you for being here, Nancy.

NANCY-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hi Emma, thank you for having me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Helen, can you tell me about Aktion T4?

HELEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Aktion T4 was a programme of killing that was directed at people who the Nazis regarded as having a life unworthy of life. These were people who in their eyes had no value, they didn鈥檛 make a contribution to society, and they also might have had illnesses or conditions that the Nazis were actively wanting to get rid of because they believed them to have a bad influence on the quality of the population. So, when you鈥檙e talking about sort of the focus of Aktion T4 it would be people who had learning disabilities, physical disabilities, mental health problems, who were in institutional care, nursing homes, asylums, different institutions, psychiatric institutions across Germany firstly, and then in Austria.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Right. So, once they were identified what happened to them?

HELEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 The people who鈥檇 been earmarked for death would be gathered together, they would be transported as a group from their home institution to one of six killing centres that were across Germany and Austria. These centres were five hospitals or care homes that had been previously used to support people with disabilities and mental health problems, and one was a previous prison as well. So, they would be taken into a room that was concealed as a shower room and carbon monoxide would be pumped into the room. There were around 70,000 adults that were killed, except that nobody鈥檚 going to be able to actually establish precisely the number so that鈥檚 an estimate.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And how did you discover, Helen, that there were people within that 70,000 who were born in Britain?

HELEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, Schloss Hartheim in Austria that is a former killing centre that鈥檚 based in a place called Alkoven near Linz. And I went on a visit there in 2010 and they had a breakdown of the victims that were killed there by nationality and I noticed that right at the bottom it said six victims from the UK. Ultimately we found that there were only two from that particular institution that had been killed, but it was that that really kickstarted the interest in who these people were and how on earth they鈥檇 managed to get themselves embroiled or wrapped up in such a horrendous programme.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You identified 13 of those victims. Tell me a little bit about them and how they ended up in Germany?

HELEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 In Germany and Austria, so you鈥檝e got different backgrounds there, so you鈥檝e got people from right across the working class backgrounds right through to the upper class backgrounds. Some of them were born in the UK because their parents, who were German and Austrian, had come across job prospects and economics were better over here. Some of them were people who married Germans and had been married and gone back to Germany with their husbands, and they鈥檇 become ill while they were in Germany. Others were families that moved around different countries. So, there were different reasons how they came to be born in the UK.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And all but one of the 13 victims represented in your exhibition were labelled as having schizophrenia.

HELEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Schizophrenia was an interesting group because one of the conditions that was not really well established at that point or the understanding was only in its infancy was autism. And there鈥檚 a good possibility that what they were seeing was possibly not mental health issues or schizophrenia, it was possibly autism.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Really interesting. Nancy Jennings, your great uncle, Zdenko Hoyos, he is profiled in the exhibition. Can you tell me a little bit about him?

NANCY-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, it was really through Helen that I found out about him. His name was written on my family tree, so when she contacted me and asked me about him I was able to find him. And I could see that he was born in 1903 and that he died at the age of 37 without having a wife or children, and that鈥檚 really all I knew at that time. I knew that my family were living in Austria, Hungary at that time, and had lots of connections in other countries, and also there were British people that had married into the family so I knew that they鈥檇 moved around a lot and they鈥檇 travelled between Britain and Austria. And so that鈥檚 how Zdenko, my great uncle, came to be born in Britain and that鈥檚 why he was included in Helen鈥檚 study. But of course what I did when I found out from Helen that he was a person of interest for her I asked my mum, and my mum could tell me a bit more because she could remember her mother, so my grandmother, who is Zdenko鈥檚 sister, telling her about what had happened. And she remembered her parents, Zdenko鈥檚 parents receiving the ashes from the Nazis in 1941 with a letter saying that he had unfortunately died of typhus; which wasn鈥檛 true. And they weren鈥檛 even his ashes; they would have been just random ashes collected from the furnace of Hartheim, which is where he was killed.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, you found out the truth from Helen?

NANCY-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I found out from Helen, and been working on finding out more with her and alongside her really. It鈥檚 been amazing for me, it鈥檚 been fantastic. Thank you Helen for getting me started on a huge journey of family history discovery.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 How do you feel, how do you react when you did find out what happened to Zdenko?

NANCY-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 been really shocking to find out what happened, and I think a lot about how he felt and how he wouldn鈥檛 have understood what was happening. He鈥檇 had a very happy childhood as far as I can see. They were a very wealthy family, very privileged. And Zdenko went to school and had a tutor at home as well, he did well at school. And after he graduated when he was probably about 18, 19 his mental health began to deteriorate. And then after that he was placed in a private clinic in Switzerland, which I believe was a way to try to remove him from the influence of the Nazis at that time. But the Nazis brought him back to Austria and then sent him to Hartheim where he was killed. There was a lot of abuse before he was killed as well. I know from medical records that he wasn鈥檛 looked after towards the end of his life at all.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 really sad.

NANCY-听听听听听听听听听听听听 He must have really suffered. And I know that his parents struggled with receiving the news that he鈥檇 been killed. Me and my sister we went with Helen to Hartheim, and we visited the memorial there and seen, we鈥檝e walked the route that he walked through when he arrived in a bus. He would have been brought there from another centre, and then the prisoners were taken through a series of rooms. And now it鈥檚 a museum. There鈥檚 also a room with all the names of the people who died there, and then you can see the gas chambers. So, that was really awful to see but fascinating as well. And now next door to that place, Hartheim, there鈥檚 an organisation that looks after people with learning disabilities and they鈥檝e kind of taken over the building and done artwork in there and they work in the caf茅 and they鈥檝e got a shop there, and it鈥檚 really fantastic to see that. So, it鈥檚 kind of like the Nazis have gone and now there鈥檚 something positive that鈥檚 come from it. And I want to keep his memory alive.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely. And probably it gives you some sort of meaning to some other things that have happened in your family as well?

NANCY-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think it鈥檚 brought us together a little bit. We鈥檝e talked about it a lot. A lot of questions that I鈥檝e had, especially from younger people in the family, are things like if he lived now what would his life be like. I鈥檓 not a medical person so I don鈥檛 really know that, but I think he would be able to live a relatively normal life with medication or treatment. And that鈥檚 really sad.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Helen, Aktion T4 happened in sort of 1940, and that was before听 a lot of the Nazi killings and the use of gas chambers. Was there some learning brought forward by the Nazis from Aktion T4?

HELEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, absolutely. So, what people don鈥檛 understand or realise is that there was a direct link between Aktion T4 and the holocaust. So, after the programme was closed on Hitler鈥檚 orders in 1941 the personnel who鈥檇 staffed those killing centres many of them were sent east to staff the concentration camps. Some of them became commandants of the concentration camps such as Treblinka and Sobibor. And they were using their expertise of mass killing to undertake the mass killing of that different group which was mainly the Jewish population. So, yeah they鈥檇 used people with disabilities almost like an experiment to work out the best way of extermination.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 fascinating. What do you hope to achieve through the exhibition, Finding Ivy?

HELEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, we鈥檝e got different aims within it. The first one is to ensure that these victims are remembered and they鈥檙e memorialised in a way that respects them as individuals. These are people who deserve to be seen and their lives actually celebrated. Another aim is to make sure that this history is brought through to an English speaking audience. We don鈥檛 cover Aktion T4 in any curriculum over here, whether that be at GCSE or A-level. There is the smallest, smallest amount that just refers to the Jewish population were killed in the holocaust and some disabled people, that鈥檚 kind of how it sits. So, it was making sure that we as a country knew about what had happened to our own citizens. And the third thing, which is just as important, is that somehow they lacked value, they had lives of lacking value that kind of has followed through in history. And whilst today we鈥檙e not overtly killing people with disabilities we鈥檙e still doing things to them that stops them having a quality of life.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I can certainly hear your passion, Dr Helen Atherton. It鈥檚 always good to give people food for thought, and it鈥檚 always fascinating for us disabled people to learn more about our own history. And when and where can people visit the exhibition?

HELEN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 There鈥檚 a link to the exhibition on the website of the Learning and Memorial Centre in Hartheim in Austria. They keep the listing for where the events will take place.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Dr Helen Atherton, Nancy Jennings, thank you so much for joining me to talk about Holocaust Memorial Day.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听听

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That is almost it for this episode of Access All, but we still have some amazing bagpipe playing to come from Katie. Thank you to all of my guests, and thanks to you for listening. If you like what you hear and you haven鈥檛 already done so please do subscribe to Access All on 大象传媒 Sounds. And we love to hear from you so do send us a message. Our email is accessall@bbc.co.uk. The 25th January is Burns Night. There鈥檚 a big extravaganza to celebrate on 大象传媒 Four and on 大象传媒 Scotland channel. And piping in the haggis on that occasion is Katie, The Wheeled Piper, who鈥檚 now going to play us out with the traditional tune, Rantin鈥� Rovin鈥� Robin. See you next week. Bye. Over to you Katie:

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Bagpipes play Rantin鈥� Rovin鈥� Robin]

[Trailer for Newscast]

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You know when you鈥檙e worried about something, but then you talk to your friend who knows more about the subject than you do, and straightaway you start to feel better? That鈥檚 what we try and do every day on Newscast.

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, they鈥檙e saying that that would be simple to do, it would give everyone certainty.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We talk to people who are in the news:

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听听 You were chasing me round with a plate of cheese.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We talk to people who know what鈥檚 going on in the news:

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 At least I didn鈥檛 get up and slap anybody.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We talk to people who understand what the news means:

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think that he鈥檚 decided he鈥檚 going to listen, and then he might just intervene.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And we talk to the best 大象传媒 journalists, asking the most important questions:

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What鈥檚 wrong with chinos? You don鈥檛 want them, people to start wearing chinos?

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听听 Don鈥檛 start me, Chris.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 Newscast from 大象传媒 News, the podcast that knows a lot of people who know a lot about the news.

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听听 And I was like, go on Kate, put some more welly into it!

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Listen to Newscast every weekday on 大象传媒 Sounds.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 glad I asked that.

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 very glad that you asked that!