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´óÏó´«Ã½ Radio 4 In Touch |
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Listen to this programmeFactsheet of this programmeTranscript of this programme Print this page FactsheetVICTORYPeter talks to two visually impaired people who sought, and were awarded, compensation after the way they were treated by two different companies. Paul and Sue Nicholls were enjoying their daughter’s wedding day but when they tried to order a taxi they were told the company didn’t have a license to carry their guide dogs. And, just over two years ago, Michael Toussaint was ejected from a Ryanair flight after a complaint about his behaviour – it was alleged that Michael, who is blind, was "reading a newspaper". He was cleared by airport security but the pilot refused to let him re-board the plane. CONTACTS EQUALITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION DISABILITY HELPLINE (England) FREEPOST MID02164 Stratford upon Avon CV37 9BR Tel: 08457 622 633 Textphone: 08457 622 644 Fax: 08457 778 878 Mon, Tue, Thu, Fri 9:00 am-5:00 pm; Wed 8:00 am-8:00 pm. Enquiry: englandhelpline2@equalityhumanrights.com EQUALITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION HELPLINE WALES Freepost RRLR-UEYB-UYZL 1st Floor 3 Callaghan Square Cardiff CF10 5BT 0845 604 8810 - Wales main number 0845 604 8820 - Wales textphone 0845 604 8830 - Wales fax 9:00 am-5:00 pm, Monday to Friday (an out-of-hours service will start running soon) Enquiry: waleshelpline@equalityhumanrights.com EQUALITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION HELPLINE SCOTLAND Freepost RRLL-GYLB-UJTA The Optima Building 58 Robertson Street Glasgow G2 8DU 0845 604 5510 - Scotland Main 0845 604 5520 - Scotland Textphone 0845 604 5530 - Scotland – Fax 9:00 am-5:00 pm, Monday to Friday (an out-of-hours service will start running soon) Enquiry: scotlandhelpline@equalityhumanrights.com INSIGHT Insight Radio is a station that caters specifically for the interests of visually-impaired people. It broadcasts via their website, on Sky Channel 0188 and in Glasgow and the surrounding areas on 101FM. The Victor Reader Stream - a portable book reader, was also mentioned. INSIGHT TANVIR TO ZAMBIA Tanvir Bush has been on the programme both as a theatre reviewer and as a student of photography, now the former film maker is going to Zambia and In Touch have asked her to take some recording equipment with her. GENERAL CONTACTS RNIB 105 Judd Street London WC1H 9NE Helpline: 0845 766 9999 Tel: 0207 388 1266 (switchboard/overseas callers) Web: The RNIB provides information, support and advice for anyone with a serious sight problem. They not only provide Braille, Talking Books and computer training, but imaginative and practical solutions to everyday challenges. The RNIB campaigns to change society's attitudes, actions and assumptions, so that people with sight problems can enjoy the same rights, freedoms and responsibilities as fully sighted people. They also fund pioneering research into preventing and treating eye disease and promote eye health by running public health awareness campaigns. HENSHAWS SOCIETY FOR BLIND PEOPLE (HSBP) John Derby House 88-92 Talbot Road Old Trafford Manchester M16 0GS Tel: 0161 872 1234 Email: info@hsbp.co.uk Web: Henshaws provides a wide range of services for people who have sight difficulties. They aim to enable visually impaired people of all ages to maximise their independence and enjoy a high quality of life. They have centres in: Harrogate, Knaresborough, Liverpool, Llandudno, Manchester, Newcastle upon Tyne, Salford, Southport and Trafford. THE GUIDE DOGS FOR THE BLIND ASSOCIATION (GDBA) Burghfield Common Reading RG7 3YG Tel: 0118 983 5555 Email: guidedogs@guidedogs.org.uk Web: The GDBA’s mission is to provide guide dogs, mobility and other rehabilitation services that meet the needs of blind and partially sighted people. ACTION FOR BLIND PEOPLE 14-16 Verney Road London SE16 3DZ Tel: 0800 915 4666 (info & advice) Web: Registered charity with national cover that provides practical support in the areas of housing, holidays, information, employment and training, cash grants and welfare rights for blind and partially-sighted people. Leaflets and booklets are available. NATIONAL LEAGUE OF THE BLIND AND DISABLED Central Office Swinton House 324 Grays Inn Road London WC1X 8DD Tel: 020 7837 6103 Textphone: 020 7837 6103 National League of the Blind and Disabled is a registered trade union and is involved in all issues regarding the employment of blind and disabled people in the UK. NATIONAL LIBRARY FOR THE BLIND (NLB) RNIB Customer Services on 0845 762 6843 Email: cservices@rnib.org.uk Web: The NLB is a registered charity which helps visually impaired people throughout the country continue to enjoy the same access to the world of reading as people who are fully sighted. Trustees from the Royal National Institute of the Blind (RNIB) and the National Library for the Blind (NLB) have agreed to merge the library services of both charities as of 1 January 2007, creating the new RNIB National Library Service. EQUALITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION DISABILITY HELPLINE (England) FREEPOST MID02164 Stratford upon Avon CV37 9BR Tel: 08457 622 633 Textphone: 08457 622 644 Fax: 08457 778 878 Mon, Tue, Thu, Fri 9:00 am-5:00 pm; Wed 8:00 am-8:00 pm. Enquiry: englandhelpline2@equalityhumanrights.com EQUALITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION HELPLINE WALES Freepost RRLR-UEYB-UYZL 1st Floor 3 Callaghan Square Cardiff CF10 5BT 0845 604 8810 - Wales main number 0845 604 8820 - Wales textphone 0845 604 8830 - Wales fax 9:00 am-5:00 pm, Monday to Friday (an out-of-hours service will start running soon) Enquiry: waleshelpline@equalityhumanrights.com EQUALITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION HELPLINE SCOTLAND Freepost RRLL-GYLB-UJTA The Optima Building 58 Robertson Street Glasgow G2 8DU 0845 604 5510 - Scotland Main 0845 604 5520 - Scotland Textphone 0845 604 5530 - Scotland – Fax 9:00 am-5:00 pm, Monday to Friday (an out-of-hours service will start running soon) Enquiry: scotlandhelpline@equalityhumanrights.com DISABLED LIVING FOUNDATION 380-384 Harrow Road London W9 2HU Tel: 0845 130 9177 Web: The Disabled Living Foundation provide information and advice on disability equipment. The ´óÏó´«Ã½ is not responsible for external websites General contacts Back to top TranscriptIN TOUCHTX: 19.02.08 2040-2100 PRESENTER: PETER WHITE PRODUCER: CHERYL GABRIEL White Good evening. To sue, or not to sue. Tonight, we hear from two visually-impaired people who decided, albeit rather reluctantly, to put up with the hassle of a case, and won. We'll also be reviewing a potential rival, and hearing about some of the horrendous problems being faced by visually-impaired people in Zambia. Just over two years ago, lead drummer Michael Toussaint and the other members of his steel band were boarding a Ryanair plane in high spirits, after a very successful New Year's gig in Sardinia. A few minutes later though they were back on the ground again, escorted by armed security men, after what was to them an inexplicable complaint about their behaviour. It included the allegation that Michael, who is blind, was "reading a newspaper". No, it doesn't make sense, and within a few minutes they'd been cleared to fly after their documents had been examined. But then the pilot exercised his apparent right to refuse to let them back on board, and they were forced to fly home on a later flight, missing New Year with their family. Well we featured this case on the In Touch programme. The item was heard by a QC, who as a result offered to represent them free in a case against Ryanair. Well recently Michael and his friends won compensation, although Ryanair, in keeping with their usual policy, intends to appeal. Well yesterday Michael Toussaint told me how he felt about the case. Toussaint Well we are very happy that it's all over and done with. We're not too satisfied with the compensation and we wouldn't like to wish what happened to us not even on our worst enemies. White What do you think this case has established? Toussaint What I think this case has established is that you know you don't take what people say sometimes - they make derogatory statements, you don't take it for granted, you don't take it on board and you know use that against innocent people. I think this is exactly what happened to us - one person says something which up till now no one knows the reason why and that worked against us terrible at the time. We had a meeting just Friday gone and the question you know we were asking one another why didn't Ryanair bring this so-called body language expert to court, let him explain himself, why he thought I pretend to be blind, which you know bona fide I am. White You say you're glad it's over, has it been a bit of a stressful experience? Toussaint Very stressful, very stressful. I mean the case finished two weeks ago and up till now you know you can't rid of the phone calls and the newspapers, you can't get rid of it at all. Maybe it's good publicity for CSI, which we accept very much. White Right, and we're adding to that but just one more question. Are you surprised that Ryanair have appealed against this decision? Toussaint Yeah very much surprised but we wish them the best of luck with their appeal. White You haven't written a song about them yet? Toussaint No, maybe we might do that for Notting Hill Carnival. White Michael Toussaint, thank you very much for joining us. Toussaint The pleasure is mine. White And in a short statement, Ryanair told us this: Ryanair statement Raynair confirms it will appeal the county court judgement in the Holder Case because it is in the interests of aircraft and passenger safety that where there is any concern about any passenger or group of passengers the first default must be to take the safety first option. Once Ryanair had established the bona fides of the group they were transferred free of charge to the next available flight. And while we sincerely regret the inconvenience they suffered our crew were absolutely right to prioritise passenger safety and security at all times. The award of £800 is unjustified in the context of the circumstances of this case and in today's heightened security environment. That was the statement from Ryanair. And this hasn't been the only recent victory either. Last summer Sue and Paul Nicholls were enjoying the wedding day of their daughter. But the happy occasion was marred by this all-too-familiar incident. Paul Nicholls At the end of the celebration we called a local taxi firm and asked to be taken home. We always mention that we have guide dogs, mainly because it saves a lot of embarrassment if they do happen to have a driver that's got an exemption. But in this instance the operator, the controller, actually said that they weren't licensed to carry dogs. My wife reminded them that they weren't just ordinary dogs, they were guide dogs and that they were obliged to carry them. But they just weren't interested. So I phoned back in a few minutes, just to reinforce what was said, and I got very much the same reaction - they weren't licensed to carry dogs, they weren't interested in the DDA. At the end of the conversation they did offer to send a minibus at more than twice the cost of the taxi, which I refused and said forget it but you will be hearing more about it. The following day we found the details of the licensing authority on our local authority website and drafted a letter asking them to follow the case up with a view to prosecution. And fortunately for us they did, they took information from us, and from the taxi firm and the case came to court on 5th February and the operator pleaded guilty. White So what actually was the punishment in the end? Paul Nicholls Well he had to pay or he's got to pay at some point £650, which includes a fine of £300, £250 costs and £100 compensation to us. Which incidentally we will give to Guide Dogs because we didn't take the case to get compensation. White What's your feeling about the effectiveness of this because this does happen to a lot of people, we've had people on saying we don't - you can't keep spend your life complaining, what do you feel this has achieved? Paul Nicholls Well I think in the past when it's happened to me often I've just sort of shrugged my shoulders and sort of think oh life's too short, I can't be bothered. And also I think for a lot of blind people it's quite difficult to complain because you can't actually present good evidence, you can't identify the driver or even the make of the car. So it is difficult. But in this case we had evidence. It turned out that our son-in-law whose phone we used on his mobile there was a record of the call being made, so the taxi firm couldn't actually deny that two calls had been made to them. White Would this make you feel if you come across what you consider to be an injustice in the future that it is actually worth making a fuss? Paul Nicholls I would because I think the law is there and I think unless people challenge bad behaviour the law will just be flouted. Unfortunately most restaurants and pubs and shops and even taxi firms don't cause a problem but I think when it does happen we do need to challenge that behaviour. White Paul Nicholls. Well we have made attempts to contact the company, ABS in Aldridge, that's in the West Midlands, so far they've been unavailable for comment. One of the selling-points of digital radio has always been that it would make it possible, with the increase of capacity, to accommodate minority interests; and Insight Radio, a station specifically catering for the interests of visually-impaired people, seems to be a case in point. Opening up in the Glasgow area and available on FM, it's now been broadcasting for a few months on the Sky platform, with visually-impaired presenters and with a range of programming. Well we thought it was high time that we cast an ear over the broadcast and we asked listener Rachel Salmon to tune in for us. Salmon Well I thought the station was very lively, it's very light-hearted. It's a bit like Radio 5 Live but with music. The day starts with the morning edition - a very heavily news based programme. They take news from Sky, the ´óÏó´«Ã½, ITN but a lot of the programme is reading aloud stories from a wide range of national newspapers. At 10 o'clock is the Morning Mix, quite a relaxed programme, they have guests, there's a lot of music. They have a lot of interviews with visually-impaired people and there's a lot of features about things that are of interest to visually-impaired people - things like DIY, lifestyle, gardening. But I particularly liked this interview with Paul Porter from the Royal National Institute for the Blind talking about the Victor Stream Talking Book Reader. Clip Porter It's sort of the next step in portable Daisy players, I'm sure you'll be familiar with the portable CD type player where you put the CD in and play the book. But this takes it to the next step. It uses a little card, called a secure digital card, and if you have a computer you can copy your talking books on to the card and have multiple books on the same card. So you could, I guess, have two, three, four, five books on the same card. It's very portable .... Presenter And very small. Porter ... and very small. Presenter Yeah I mean let's just describe the size of it. It's only about half an inch thick, it's probably about three and a half inches top to bottom and two inches wide with a little loudspeaker at the top in a silver panel and then quite a few buttons on the front. So tell us a bit about the functionality ... White This all came as a bit of a surprise to you because [Talking over, indistinct words] ... do you remember? Salmon Yes well last time I used a talking book machine was when I was at school and it was basically this great wrought iron block with these huge plastic tapes. So you know I find that very useful actually. I'm seriously considering getting one of these machines myself so I can listen to it on the tube. White Which I suppose really it starts to justify this kind of thing, because you've caught that information, you hadn't picked it up from anywhere else. Salmon Absolutely yes. White Now your second clip also relates to books doesn't it, tell me about that? Salmon Well this is the writer Sue Townsend and she's talking about her experiences as a newly visually-impaired person because I think one of the things that this radio station tries to do is to inspire and encourage visually impaired people with visually impaired role models, so this is some of her early experiences when she first started losing her sight. Clip The card came in the post in a cheap brown envelope. I didn't open it for a few days. It looked like a newsagent's bill. When I finally opened it I found a pink laminated card inside, it said: This is to certify that Mrs Susan Townsend of Holmfield Road, Leicester has been certified as eligible for registration as a partially sighted person under the National Assistance Act 1948 by Mr ....., consultant ophthalmologist. And agreed to be registered .... That was a short extract from a short essay by Sue Townsend and it was read by Jacqueline King. They do feature a complete talking book every week but they also feature interviews with writers, features on how talking books are produced and so on. So it's not just the reading the actual books themselves. White What was your overall impression of the tone because this is quite a long time isn't it to sustain a special programme, we get 20 minutes and we're quite annoyed about that, they get what 12 hours? Salmon Mmm, yes I was amazed at how much information they were able to pack into the time. I mean basically they cover anything, you know, but it's all got a visually-impaired slant. White You're saying with a visually-impaired slant, I mean can you give me an example of what might have thought to be a mainstream story with a visually-impaired twist? Salmon Well I didn't really that they did relate to the mainstream news to visually-impaired people. I mean one of the things they might like to consider is possibly getting one of their listeners into the studio to comment on the news from a visually-impaired person's perspective. On the first day that I listened there was an interview with somebody from the Royal National Institute for the Blind talking about their campaign to get higher rate mobility component disability living allowance. Now you could say that's a mainstream news item about benefits but I think that is really mainly an advice type feature for visually-impaired people. Maybe that's something they could work on is thinking about how some of these news items - what would a visually-impaired person's perspective be on that. I think the radio station will serve as a good training ground for visually-impaired people who want to get into radio and into the media ... White So we can go along and poach them you mean? Salmon Yeah, you should do. I hope that eventually a lot of these people will be working in the quotes "mainstream" media and bringing their perspective to bear on mainstream programming. White Did you have a favourite? Salmon Er yeah, well my favourite was Jill Daley. I was left in no doubt that she was a visually-impaired person, she certainly wasn't afraid to talk about her own experiences as a visually impaired person. And here she is telling a very amusing anecdote about when she took part in the Dublin marathon. Clip Daley I remember when they first came to me and said you know we want you to come and do the Dublin marathon, I was living in Scotland at the time, and I said: "I can't do a marathon". And they said: "No, no, no what we'll do is we'll make you walk the first mile and then walk the last mile and just have the dog" and blah, blah, blah. And I was like: "Yeah that'll be great then, no problem, I can handle two miles." And we were the only people - we were the only charity that were allowed a minibus on the course. So what we were to do was for the people that wanted to maybe just do the beginning and the end of the marathon they would - after the first mile we'd get in the minibus and then just they'd drive us to the end, we'd sit and wait for a while so that we didn't beat the actual runners. White Jill Daley, one of the regular voices to be heard on Insight Radio and our reviewer was Rachel Salmon. And we'd be interested to hear from other people who are tuning in too, tell us what you think. Now, here's a versatile woman. First heard on this programme a couple of months ago as a student on a photography course, then as our theatre reviewer, now Tanvir Bush is off on her travels to Zambia. A former film-maker, and with a background in the country, there are a number of projects that she wants to explore. Well we asked her to take some recording equipment along with her and just before she left the UK, Tanvir explained what she wanted to do. Bush I grew up in Zambia and have spent many wonderful years there working as a film-maker and returning because once whilst filming on the streets of Lusaka, we were working with some street children, I happened across a community of visually-impaired and blind people who were begging on the streets but they'd formed a very tight family community. And I've always been fascinated to find out what's happened to them and to go back now and find out, not only what's happened to them, how they're doing but what it's like to be visually-impaired in Zambia. White Because I expect that they were really - almost they've created an alternative culture, if you like, away from what would be happening here which would be social services, hopefully, involved, at least somebody watching out for you. Bush Exactly, I mean they've had to form these extended sort of family groups in order to look after each other. There were blind schools in Zambia, I'd like to go and find out more about whether they're still in operation, what's going on and what happens to the blind once they get to kind of grade 12 education - what kind of work is there for them. There used to be ring fenced jobs with the government, you used to be able to apply for telephone switchboard jobs. Now that's no longer the case. So I would really like to know what's possible, what is going on. I mean it's supposed to be the African decade for the disabled. What is going on in the ground in that part of the world to help disabled generally but the visually-impaired specifically. White And that group of people, they are almost what living by their wits? Bush Living by their wits. A lot of ... White I mean begging. Bush They do, they beg. And what's quite interesting is that obviously they don't necessarily use dogs, dogs are feared in Zambia, so they won't use guide dogs. And canes are quite difficult to come by, so they use, to help them get around, young children. But this obviously means taking young children out of education in order to help them get around but the kids earn money also through helping them - older blind or partially sighted people - beg. So I'd also like to find out what's going on on that side as well. White Now the other aspect of course which you in a way you can't go to Africa and not be aware of is the problem of HIV which of course has connections with blindness because it can often lead to blindness and I think you have a bit of a medical in to this. Bush I do yes. We went to Zambia in '73 and my father was and is a tropical medicine specialist and by dint of just working in Zambia over all this time he's become an HIV/AIDS specialist and recently was awarded an OBE for services to that particular medical side of things. And he is going to be helping me investigate HIV and blindness. What are the links, whether any of the antiretrovirals actually cause side effects that can cause visual impairment. So we're going to have a look into that. But the other side of HIV and blindness is of course that if you are disabled in any way you may have to resort to prostitution, you do become more sexually vulnerable, you are in a more difficult situation and you are more liable to become infected. White So really these are going to be fairly challenging reports you're going to be bringing back for us? Bush Yes, yes. But being Zambia there will be humour and a great deal of laughter I should imagine as well. This is a place people do not sit and bewail their lot, I tell you. White Tanvir Bush. And we'll be hearing more from Tanvir on her return. That's it for today but do call with your comments on anything at all you hear on the programme, with any queries you have, you can call us on 0800 044 044 or e-mail the programme via the website. Podcast available from tomorrow. From me Peter White, my producer Cheryl Gabriel and the rest of the team, goodbye. Back to top |
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